NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

well im theorising a little here but given that we have photos on here of people with 240mm rads with slim fans in the bottom mount position, in addition to a waterblock taking up space i may be able to squeeze a single 120mmx25mm rad with (maybe) a 25mm or 20mm fan mounted really close under the naked PCB....

im not dead set on it, just experimenting and attempting to see how far the M1 can be pushed without going custom WC loop

There's certainly room for a 25-30mm bottom-mounted radiator, and slim fans (up to ~15mm), when using a long graphics card. But there's no way you're using a 25mm fan with a radiator.

I asked for the space between the top PCI slot and the bottom of the case a while ago, and Necere measured it as 49mm. This presumes that you are using a water block that isn't any thicker than the slot it populates.
 
It's not as loud as you think it is. But I can only say so for the H60 2013 and H80i because I own both of them.

I had a H60 2013 in my SG05 and then M1 and it was one of the louder parts (the pump, not the fan).

I now have a Coolermaster Top-Blower and a MSI 760 Twin Frozer and now the loudest part seems to be the PSU (which already has been moded with a different fan)
 
I had a H60 2013 in my SG05 and then M1 and it was one of the louder parts (the pump, not the fan).

That's strange, I have the H60 2013 in my M1 and SilverStone Bronze PSU from my SG06 in my M1 right now. Every time I put my ears over the case I can hear the PSU fan. As for the pump, I have no idea what it sounds like because I can't tell whether the sound is from the Noctua fans or the pump. Most likely it's the Noctua fans.

It might be that pumps in different units just give off different sounds.
 
Well, look what I found ;)

It fits, but well I doubt darxider recommends a R9 290x with the 450Watt PSU
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040648346&postcount=10594

IMAG0438.jpg

Was thinking of when the 600W comes out.
 
That's strange, I have the H60 2013 in my M1 and SilverStone Bronze PSU from my SG06 in my M1 right now. Every time I put my ears over the case I can hear the PSU fan. As for the pump, I have no idea what it sounds like because I can't tell whether the sound is from the Noctua fans or the pump. Most likely it's the Noctua fans.

It might be that pumps in different units just give off different sounds.

well I disconnected my Noctua fans and stopped the fan in the PSU with a q-tip :D

I also still have the bronze 450Watt version, but probably will buy the 600 or 500 Watt version.
 
There's certainly room for a 25-30mm bottom-mounted radiator, and slim fans (up to ~15mm), when using a long graphics card. But there's no way you're using a 25mm fan with a radiator.

I asked for the space between the top PCI slot and the bottom of the case a while ago, and Necere measured it as 49mm. This presumes that you are using a water block that isn't any thicker than the slot it populates.

so from this i can hope that if the PCB and protruding parts are less than 1 slot (and located far enough down the PCB not to conflict with the cooling block/pump and the 120mm rad/fan) that i may have a little over 50mm to play with (which would be adequate for 25mm rad (H75, Antec 620) with a slimmer fan.

I suspect ill play about with ordering the H75 to try it out, and if it doesnt fit in the bottom ill try to mount my current H80i and the H75 on the side 120mm mounts. but ideally ill get it to mount on the bottom and then sqeeze in the monster H105 up top for the CPU.
 
Why would you even NEED more than a single 240mm radiator in this case ? I have a Intel Core i5-4670K and an AMD Radeon R9-290X both on a single Swiftech H220 with the standard fans set to be quiet to my ears (I'm not overly sensitive to noise) and it has a hard time reaching 60°C with the fans at 1300rpm on load.

If you want multiple radiators because of random desire, use a case that benefits from them. Having a slim radiator with slim fans squished between the bottom of the case and a single slot GPU waterblock is just wasted.

Traditional water-cooling forums has beat it into most people that a single 240mm rad is NOT enough for a high-end CPU and GPU combo. Although I'm aware that on paper it is enough, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. I'll be testing it out with a single 240mm rad before I go and buy my 2nd rad.

And you do bring up a GREAT point about the bottom mounted rad, and that is the sacrafices we make for it. for me personally it would be the 3.5" drive, which would be a 3TB 7200rpm one in my case. I have a hard time letting it go in my head. again, we'll see how I feel come August when I hopefully get my Ncase :)

Lastly, what are your CPU and GPU temps? i've seen a lot of ivy and haswell CPUs stay cool (they are pretty cool unless you overvolt and OC), but a 290X can easily shoot up to the mid 80s...
 
Traditional water-cooling forums has beat it into most people that a single 240mm rad is NOT enough for a high-end CPU and GPU combo. Although I'm aware that on paper it is enough, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. I'll be testing it out with a single 240mm rad before I go and buy my 2nd rad.

And you do bring up a GREAT point about the bottom mounted rad, and that is the sacrafices we make for it. for me personally it would be the 3.5" drive, which would be a 3TB 7200rpm one in my case. I have a hard time letting it go in my head. again, we'll see how I feel come August when I hopefully get my Ncase :)
I was planning the same thing. start out with a single rad and maybe extend it to a second one in the bottom. Though as it looks now I probably will have to wait a few months to get all the money together to fill it up. :D

What is everyone planning to use?
R0jdwWi.png


What do people think of the AquaComputer Aquatube?
I was planning to design a mount to put it like this:
UvbWJvc.png
 
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Traditional water-cooling forums has beat it into most people that a single 240mm rad is NOT enough for a high-end CPU and GPU combo. Although I'm aware that on paper it is enough, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. I'll be testing it out with a single 240mm rad before I go and buy my 2nd rad.
I know what you mean, people suddenly are afraid of temperatures (at the cores) over 50°C when using watercooling, it doesn't make sense when the CPU's are good for I believe 85°C before shutdown and the GPU's even higher than 95°C.
I doesn't perform better if everything runs at 40°C or 60°C, the same amount of heat needs to be removed anyway, it just means more noise.

Lastly, what are your CPU and GPU temps? i've seen a lot of ivy and haswell CPUs stay cool (they are pretty cool unless you overvolt and OC), but a 290X can easily shoot up to the mid 80s...
My CPU and GPU temps are often at the same level, only offset by a few degrees. The motherboard temp too, probably because the hot air from the radiator gets blown against the motherboard. The GPU VRM's are also at the same temp as the rest.

During a game like Diablo 3, I rarely see them above 50°C
During a game like Battlefield 4, it sits around 60°C depending on room temp (18-24°C).
 
I was planning the same thing. start out with a single rad and maybe extend it to a second one in the bottom. Though as it looks now I probably will have to wait a few months to get all the money together to fill it up. :D

What is everyone planning to use?

OK, I can play this game:

2k6pmA1.png
 
My CPU and GPU temps are often at the same level, only offset by a few degrees. The motherboard temp too, probably because the hot air from the radiator gets blown against the motherboard. The GPU VRM's are also at the same temp as the rest.

During a game like Diablo 3, I rarely see them above 50°C
During a game like Battlefield 4, it sits around 60°C depending on room temp (18-24°C).

Thanks a lot for sharing, it really seems that a single rad is enough. I was afraid of the GPU spiking up into the 80s (not that 80s is bad, they can go into 90s nowadays) because the water is already kinda warm after the CPU block. One of the main reasons I wanted a 2nd rad is to keep one rad between the CPU and GPU loops.

In this case, I may very well be better off with a 3.5" drive mounted at the bottom instead, though it wouldn't sound as cool as 2 x 240mm rads :eek: but a whole lot more practical :D
 
Thanks a lot for sharing, it really seems that a single rad is enough. I was afraid of the GPU spiking up into the 80s (not that 80s is bad, they can go into 90s nowadays) because the water is already kinda warm after the CPU block. One of the main reasons I wanted a 2nd rad is to keep one rad between the CPU and GPU loops.

In this case, I may very well be better off with a 3.5" drive mounted at the bottom instead, though it wouldn't sound as cool as 2 x 240mm rads :eek: but a whole lot more practical :D

Easy newbie WC misconception: loop order does not actually matter. Think about it this way, a pump might be rated at a few hundred gallons per hour, or 5gal per minute. You might have 1-2L in your loop, so your coolant is making a lap every couple of seconds, meanwhile your radiator is constantly dissipating heat. The difference in temperature of the water itself along the length of the loop is negligible.
 
Just for completeness sake:
I have about 0.3L in my H220 + EK FCWB block. The H220's pump has 440L/h at 3.000rpm and mine runs at about 70% (2.100rpm) so I assume it's about 300L/h. This means 5L/min is pumped which means the water has circled around 15 times a minute, making it every 4 seconds that the complete loop has "rotated".

It is at these speeds that the water (as a fragment) doesn't have much time to warm up enough to be concerned about but it's working more like a "persistent connection" between the radiator and waterblocks than a transport line of heated water.
 
So I'm guessing that a small enough 800w PSU doesn't exist to cram a 295x2 into the case, correct? :(
 
Our SonicWall at work blocks the ncases website due to a BOTNET filter. Perhaps you have a similar issue?
 
So I'm guessing that a small enough 800w PSU doesn't exist to cram a 295x2 into the case, correct? :(

That does seem to be the case, If one really tried you could probably jerry rig one from high density industrial PSUs however a quick estimate on the cost suggests a price on the order of $1000 for such a psu.(I was thinking for myself of watercooling a tdk-lambda pfe1000F-12, and adding a picopsu, untill I saw the cost)
 
Yeah, but with a 4790k & 295x2 system drawing 730 watts under max load, going with such little wiggle room seems like a terribly risky proposition unfortunately!
 
Yeah, but with a 4790k & 295x2 system drawing 730 watts under max load, going with such little wiggle room seems like a terribly risky proposition unfortunately!
I'm not convinced that system will draw that much power. We have people running 4770k + 290X reliably on the 450W SFX power supplies. The 295x2 should only draw 250W more than the 290X. 450W (which already has some margin to run stably) + 250W = 700W

Unless the there's a big difference in margin somewhere in that chain, which is quite possible, it should run fine. As for cable management, it's not hard to open up the case and snip/desolder the unneeded wires.
 
There's a reason I'm waiting for Silverstone's 600W SFX supply... And for nVidia to release a dual-GPU GeForce card... Other than my current dearth of funds, of course ;)

My thinking is as such: the (aging) GTX 690 is a 300W card, and the Maxwell architecture has nVidia emphasizing the ratio of power consumption to performance. I am optimistic that their dual-GPU GeForce successor will be the GTX 890, and will live in the same power-consumption ballpark as the 690, which would be a great differentiator against the R9 295x2 for them (and would eliminate the extra cost of a water loop coming standard).

If that all bears out (a big if), you would be able to have dual-GPU graphics and the highest performance CPU available, and still have ~20% headroom left in terms of power consumption, when using the 600W SFX unit. And that's with everything at full bore. Plus, you don't lose out on the option to use either a 240mm side-mounted radiator, or the 3.5'' drive bracket.

...FWIW, that's also the same reason I'm considering two 240mm radiators. I figure I can OC the processor, and leave the GPUs at stock, with such a significant quantity of cooling capacity. I wouldn't be so keen to do that if I had all that heat feeding into one radiator, but with two I think you can achieve a much better balance of temperatures and noise.
 
There's a reason I'm waiting for Silverstone's 600W SFX supply... And for nVidia to release a dual-GPU GeForce card... Other than my current dearth of funds, of course ;)

My thinking is as such: the (aging) GTX 690 is a 300W card, and the Maxwell architecture has nVidia emphasizing the ratio of power consumption to performance. I am optimistic that their dual-GPU GeForce successor will be the GTX 890, and will live in the same power-consumption ballpark as the 690, which would be a great differentiator against the R9 295x2 for them (and would eliminate the extra cost of a water loop coming standard).

If that all bears out (a big if), you would be able to have dual-GPU graphics and the highest performance CPU available, and still have ~20% headroom left in terms of power consumption, when using the 600W SFX unit. And that's with everything at full bore. Plus, you don't lose out on the option to use either a 240mm side-mounted radiator, or the 3.5'' drive bracket.

...FWIW, that's also the same reason I'm considering two 240mm radiators. I figure I can OC the processor, and leave the GPUs at stock, with such a significant quantity of cooling capacity. I wouldn't be so keen to do that if I had all that heat feeding into one radiator, but with two I think you can achieve a much better balance of temperatures and noise.

we can always spend $3k on a Titan Z :p

on a more serious note (though go ahead and get a Titan Z if you want, I swear I won't hate :p) it looks like Nvidia is testing the ability of the pro-sumer market to swallow that price-tag, much like how it did that when it launched the Titan... I really hope those things rot on the shelves, otherwise I highly doubt we'll ever see a gtx 890 under $2k
 
Yeah, but with a 4790k & 295x2 system drawing 730 watts under max load, going with such little wiggle room seems like a terribly risky proposition unfortunately!

The reviews I've read suggest a total system power consumption of no more than 700 W with an i7 and a 295X2 and that's at the wall. Accounting for PSU efficiency (assuming 90% efficiency), that's less than 650 W output from the PSU. Remember that PSU's are rated for continuous output. Drawing 700 W continuously is okay on a 700 W PSU, although over time it might lose it's ability to supply that much power. Drawing 650 W on a 750 W is well on the safe side.

Just don't run FurMark. TPU saw the R9 295X2 draw 646 W on its own (not including the rest of the PC)

Sources:
686 W with an overclocked 4960X (hexacore)
665 W with an overclocked i5
700 W with an i7-3820

we can always spend $3k on a Titan Z :p

on a more serious note (though go ahead and get a Titan Z if you want, I swear I won't hate :p) it looks like Nvidia is testing the ability of the pro-sumer market to swallow that price-tag, much like how it did that when it launched the Titan... I really hope those things rot on the shelves, otherwise I highly doubt we'll ever see a gtx 890 under $2k

The reason Titan cards are so expensive is because of the floating point performance, they're not a test to see if people will pay that much for gaming. They're not designed to be gaming cards, they're designed to be a middle-ground between gaming and workstation cards. The GTX 780 Ti was released after the Titan, has better gaming performance and is cheaper.
NVIDIA intentionally gimps their gaming cards (the GeForce line) in floating point performance to avoid competing against their own professional line of cards (the Quadro cards). The Titan series is more expensive than other GeForce cards but a lot cheaper than Quadro cards while having eight times the floating point performance of other GeForce cards. From the bit-tech Titan Black review:
The original Titan, which this card outright replaces, is, after all, less of a gaming product than it is an entry level professional compute one – apparently only around half of those sold were ever used to play games at all.
 
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Our SonicWall at work blocks the ncases website due to a BOTNET filter. Perhaps you have a similar issue?

I bet it was some glitch in DNS routing, some other site was "unavailable" too at the same time. This is home Charter cable internet...

now to preorder, but i'm not sure whether to get SAL vs. air...if no one's parcel was destroyed by SAL, prob will do that...
 
we can always spend $3k on a Titan Z :p

I hear that nVidia, in response to the complaints of the high price of the Titan Z, just recently announced a rebate program where customers can get a $1500 discount by rendering their first-born child. :rolleyes:

on a more serious note (though go ahead and get a Titan Z if you want, I swear I won't hate :p) it looks like Nvidia is testing the ability of the pro-sumer market to swallow that price-tag, much like how it did that when it launched the Titan... I really hope those things rot on the shelves, otherwise I highly doubt we'll ever see a gtx 890 under $2k

Thing is, that would be leaving a lot of money on the table. The reason the Titan Z is so expensive (and the Titan/Titan Black, relative to GeForce cards) is because they aren't hobbled in FP64 performance. nVidia couldn't make the Titan cards price-competitive for gamers, because if they had, they would have shot themselves in the foot - their workstation cards would have been completely undermined in price.

I don't think that nVidia is going to leave the $1-2k gaming GPU market uncontested. Titan served as a great bridge for them to capitalize on tried-and-true chips and architecture, as well as to let those with lots of disposable $ get their hands on a "fresh" dual-GPU card. The idea of a prosumer solution probably won't go anywhere for some time. But there's no reason to think that they couldn't make plenty of money on a, say, $1250 GTX 890 - and lots of people would buy it, particularly if the power consumption is not nearly as outrageous as it is for the 295x2.
 
Yeah, but with a 4790k & 295x2 system drawing 730 watts under max load, going with such little wiggle room seems like a terribly risky proposition unfortunately!

Silverstone strider S modular GOLD series is 850w with 150mm, modular though
 
Curious if a Sapphire 290 Tri-X fits?

It fits, but well I doubt darxider recommends a R9 290x with the 450Watt PSU

The 290X Tri-X fits nicely, and works just fine with the 450W sfx psu. I ran such a setup for a couple of months in my M1 without a hitch, playing a multitude of heavy gpu-loading games.

But I still don't recommend it. Why? Because HEAT! It turned the M1 into a toaster (not surprisingly, but I had to try). :D

So I gave up on that idea and replaced the 290X Tri-X with a GTX 780 Ti with the reference blower cooler. Low noise, low heat, win-win. I still hate Nvidia though (the company, not the products). :mad: :)
 
Well, let's take the red team vs green team stuff out of this thread, there are plenty of places on the internets for that :)

with that out of the way, I'm REALLY curious what kind of power efficiencies Maxwell and AMD's Tonga will bring at 20nm. if we get lucky they may even have a shorter PCB for the high-end (I know it's unrealistic but I can wish :p)
 
Why would the GTX 780 Ti be "low heat" ? If it generates 300W worth of heat, it will generate the same amount of heat as any other card generating 300W worth of heat.

In a case this small, made entirely of aluminium and by keeping the noise in check, you are bound to run into "hot zones". Mine is the top panel, because the radiator exhausts through there.
 
Why would the GTX 780 Ti be "low heat" ? If it generates 300W worth of heat, it will generate the same amount of heat as any other card generating 300W worth of heat.

In a case this small, made entirely of aluminium and by keeping the noise in check, you are bound to run into "hot zones". Mine is the top panel, because the radiator exhausts through there.

Although GTX 780 Ti probably produces the same amount of heat at max load, it probably is at idle most of the time. Meanwhile, AMD cards spend more time under load for no good reason.

Here's what happen for the R9 290 card that I own:
1) It takes a constant extra 70W to drive a second monitor (tested with watt meter)
2) It takes around an extra 50W to watch any 720p video, if using a single screen.
All this is because an AMD card needs to drive the speed of its RAM to maximum to handle a second monitor. With one monitor, the ram idles at around 150mhz. With two monitors the ram is always at 1350mhz. Same goes for video watching. RAM speed is constantly maxing out, thus drawing more heat and making the top of the case very warm.

The way I got around this is to attach the second monitor to the integrated graphics. That works fine in Windows, but Linux doesn't seem to like it.
 
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Ok guys, loving the thread. I was redirected here from the "picture and build log thread" where I had asked if someone had already tried a bottom 240mm rad. I don't know if I'm breaking the TOS but what I'm about to post really deserves all the credit. This is from a very, very impressive build from 2011, when M-ITX overclocking boards were very few and somewhat unrealiable and the power-density market was not getting all the attention it is nowadays with the prospect of crazy fast NGFF PCI-Express SSDs, the Impact board alone, et cetera. So a picture is worth a thousand words, right? BEHOLD
MAX11Lv355.jpg

The build can be found here for reference. Back in the day it blew my mind!

So what's the benefits going this route at the NCASE M1?
  • use 3x 120mm fans at the top 240mm rad;
  • mount a 3,5in HDD at the back of the PSU;
  • use a powerfull PSU, enough to make the dream 295X+4790K oc'd came true;
  • no more PSU noise issues.

I cannot affort such a build, but I'd love to see it done. Someone please do it and shoot for the stars! ST30 240mm (low FPI) with slim fans at the bottom and the highest FPI 240mm rad with 3 of those new 3000RPM noctuas for benching and max OC's... all fans controlled by PWM in an Impact II it's a dream and it's doable IMHO. Now the question remains, who's up to the challenge? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

P.S. Modding the candidate PSU :)confused: which one you guys think would fit?) to an adequate top exaust orientation is part of the challenge!
 
All this is because an AMD card needs to drive the speed of its RAM to maximum to handle a second monitor. With one monitor, the ram idles at around 150mhz. With two monitors the ram is always at 1350mhz. Same goes for video watching. RAM speed is constantly maxing out, thus drawing more heat and making the top of the case very warm.
If I'm constantly watching 1080p high bitrate video, my entire loop floats around 40°C, using MadVR (higher than normal load), MPC-HC & LAV filters. This is with my R9 290X.

My top vent also gets pretty warm when gaming, because it is the main exhaust. Don't forget that it's aluminium: it will absorb heat by nature. It's like water will make stuff wet. The GTX 780 Ti will not make a difference in this fact.
It may reduce the heat and power consumption during movie watching, but that card also costs about 70% more.

So a picture is worth a thousand words, right? BEHOLD
MAX11Lv355.jpg


So what's the benefits going this route at the NCASE M1?
  • use 3x 120mm fans at the top 240mm rad;
  • mount a 3,5in HDD at the back of the PSU;
  • use a powerfull PSU, enough to make the dream 295X+4790K oc'd came true;
  • no more PSU noise issues.
While I can see the merrit, it won't be easy as that to achieve those benefits:
- You would have to use the SFX-L PSU Silverstone has announced, since it uses a 120mm fan and an ATX PSU will just be too big for this.
- to fit an 3,5" HDD in there could be possible, but it would block a lot of airflow.
- You are not going to get the R9 295X2 in there without an ATX PSU and that won't fit with a 240mm radiator, however you spin it.
- The PSU will get warm air, so it will be basically working as if in a hotbox, so it will definitely make MORE noise.

Let me say I do think it's good that you bring this up, this might work, but I highly doubt it would work well enough to be worth the effort.
 
Is it just me being incompetent or do I have to order both case and extra top panel separately and there's no chance to order them together in one go?
 
While I can see the merrit, it won't be easy as that to achieve those benefits:
- You would have to use the SFX-L PSU Silverstone has announced, since it uses a 120mm fan and an ATX PSU will just be too big for this.
- to fit an 3,5" HDD in there could be possible, but it would block a lot of airflow.
- You are not going to get the R9 295X2 in there without an ATX PSU and that won't fit with a 240mm radiator, however you spin it.
- The PSU will get warm air, so it will be basically working as if in a hotbox, so it will definitely make MORE noise.

Let me say I do think it's good that you bring this up, this might work, but I highly doubt it would work well enough to be worth the effort.

To explain my idea, forget about dual 250mm fans on the psu side of the rad you're right it wouldn't fit, but with the rad straight at the window (is it possible?) it seems feasible. About noise, my bet is that even if it's warm air, it will be plenty to cool the PSU even at high load...

Using the image you've linked.
D9Mwx6V.jpg


What's the height from the back of the GPU to the top of the case and what's the added height of the PSU power cable extension?

Also, that should be enough and 140mm long!
Non-modular:
Coolermaster GX750 (750W, 140mm long)
FSP Aurum Gold AU-700 (700W, 140mm long, 80+ Gold)
Silverstone Strider Essentials ST70F-ES (700W, 140mm long, 80+)
Sparkle 80+ Gold SPI750ACAG (750W, 140mm long, 80+ Gold)
Sparkle 80+ Gold SPI700ACAG (700W, 140mm long, 80+ Gold)

From those above Sparkle 80+ Gold SPI750ACAG (750W, 140mm long, 80+ Gold) it is 85.8mm thick so the total would be 142.4mm
 
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Is it just me being incompetent or do I have to order both case and extra top panel separately and there's no chance to order them together in one go?
It's not you. It's just the only way we can use encrypted form data with Paypal without having a whole shopping cart on our end. Inconvenient, I know.
 
I'm so excited to finally be etting my hands on an Ncase M1 (v2)!

Do you guys have a guestimate of build time?
If not, it's cool, I'm just antsy. :p
 
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