Nobu
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just fyi, mac osx isn't a fork of Linux. It doesn't use the linux kernel and never has. Only thing it shares is LSB, and I'm not sure it has all of that either.
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Microsoft Expects the “Majority of Customers” to Use Windows 10’s S Mode
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heatlesssun
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WINE is far from bulletproof and can introduce its own problems. Plus is adds additional work in researching every single Windows only game a Linux might buy to check for compatibility and possibly having to deal with some configuration setup and testing.
heatlesssun
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The store model has been a huge success for Apple and I'm sure Microsoft would love to have a piece of that action.
B00nie
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Mac is based based on BSD which was the base for minix, which is the inspiration for linux. So they share common roots.
Nobu
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Based on an OS which was the base of another os that was the inspiration for Linux = a fork is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion. And that's assuming all that is even accurate. Anyway, this is off topic. I don't want to argue about it.Mac is based based on BSD which was the base for minix, which is the inspiration for linux. So they share common roots.
B00nie
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I didn't say OSX was a fork of linux, I said they share common roots. As you can see from the graph they're parallel not sequental.
I'd go to Linux myself if only more of my software was supported. Microsoft Office is an absolute deal breaker, I need that. No LibreOffice won't work, I've already tried. I need a cloud-file-sync tool and so far there's no good sync tool for Linux. I have multiple computers and I need to be able to copy files seamlessly to each of my computers. I need iTunes since I have an iPhone. I want to play Blizzard Entertainment games and they are known to not work very well in WINE at all.
So Windows I am stuck on unless of course I go Mac but that's expensive as hell to get a good decent system.
So Windows I am stuck on unless of course I go Mac but that's expensive as hell to get a good decent system.
Todd Walter
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I hate WU for the ENV wipe it performs. How f'n hard is it for Microsoft to learn to append strings!?
Todd Walter
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VT-d is needed for the GPU passthough (I think) as well as a GPU that allows SRIOV? It's been awhile since I've looked at it. The GPU part is the tricky one as AMD/NV waffle back and forth between calling it a PRO feature and restricting it to their content-creation cards. The blog I was following is below.
https://davidyat.es/2016/09/08/gpu-passthrough/
Todd Walter
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WINE can run Office 2016 for basic use but ODBC is trickier and font issues are likely. My biggest problem was always the difference in how my Linux machine interpreted the printer margins from my Windows machine. Blizzard has hated Linux ever since the free-server issue for Warcraft and I swear they go out of their way to be incompatible. File syncing on Linux should be easy as it is what runs all the other services. Dropbox probably has the best client. iTunes is only possible via WINE or a VM as Apple doesn't much care. Use what works for you; at this stage desktop users are still trail-blazers. I expect it will get better; most of the business software seems to be moving back to a web-host so they don't have to deal with the rolling updates. HTML5 & WebAssembly could be the bridge we need.
Todd Walter
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BloodyIron
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Honestly, with the way EA and Ubi are doing, they can keep their "AAA" titles. Frankly, they're not fun, and a big money sink. I've gotten way more fun out of games like Stellaris, Day of Infamy, Cities Skylines, and so many more. Spend less, get more. Oh, and they run on Linux native too.
Graphics don't make a game.
Graphics don't make a game.
heatlesssun
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I suspect that most people in this forum do exactly that.
Todd Walter
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These threads always take me back to comp.os.holy.wars; only the names have changed!
heatlesssun
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AAA games are just the tip of the iceberg. The bulk of PC game releases are coming from small/indie developers and their support of Linux hasn't been stellar. A look at the top 25 New and Trending indie titles on Steam show only 3 with Linux support. The situation is considerably better with 9 out 25 under Top Sellers but a lot of those are pretty old titles.
MS abandoning windows mobile suggests otherwise. That, or they don't think they have to work for it - don't want to do the heavy lifting and actually create compelling, innovate apps to showcase just how amazing and wonderful WinRT10/UWP is, and how it does everything better than Win32.
The reality is it's been 7 years since they first made WinRT8 (Metro) app SDK available to developers during the early Windows 8 beta days. It's been 8+ years since MS began making the first Metro apps internally. UWP (WinRT10) is just the latest rebranding of that lineage, but the idea that "UWP just needs to mature" is laughable at this point. 8 years they haven't felt the need to innovate, and with the mobile platform abandoned, it seems unlikely they ever will.
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heatlesssun
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These threads always take me back to comp.os.holy.wars; only the names have changed!
Indeed!
In a place like this were so many spend tons of money on PCs I don't know why Linux folks think that Windows folks have no idea about Linux and don't have a pretty good idea about he well Linux support the things they do.
Todd Walter
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There is also no way in hell an ERP vendor would share profits with Microsoft by selling through their store. Ditto for CAD vendors and everyone else that sells serious software. That pretty much makes this idea stillborn.
Todd Walter
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Indeed!
In a place like this were so many spend tons of money on PCs I don't know why Linux folks think that Windows folks have no idea about Linux and don't have a pretty good idea about he well Linux support the things they do.
To use the traditional car analogy: Owning an expensive car and knowing how to drive it are two entirely separate things.
It's not an entirely unreasonable assumption but for longtime lurkers it should be obvious this is a road well-traveled.
It's a double lose actually - not only do they lose 30% to Microsoft, but they lose 50% of potential sales by limiting their software to Windows 10, since the combined Win7/8 userbase still make up more than half the market.
What systems are you talking about? At my helpdesk, we deal with hardware and basic network connectivity primarily. There are far more Dell and HP computers issued to the staff, but we have about an equal amount of repairs of Macs coming in for repair. The Macs are a royal pain when something doesn't go right (which is very common) and the Windows PC's usually take just a few simple clicks.
Of course, since you do not know what university I work for, or anything about our systems or how they are integrated, developed, or what they are used for, it may be best for you to refrain from assuming that we have "poorly designed" systems.
heatlesssun
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The UI development model for UWP is significantly different from classic Win32 and the failure of Windows phones has discourage developers from getting into it. There are those that have that have created some very nice apps though. One of the best PDF readers/lightweight editors for Windows is Xodo. I guess the thing for folks that spaz over this issue is that you don't want to see high quality UWPs. Where they exist I'll use them if they serve the purpose well like Xodo.
heatlesssun
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People who have spent their own money on PCs for decades and set them up to do what they want know how to drive it. I can install a Linux distro and try it out for the things I'm looking to do just fine. And it's not like I expect things to work just like Windows, there's plenty of material online to research for help. Not a big deal for someone like me. But yeah, there's just some things that desktop Linux doesn't handle well. I got a huge kick from some Linux folks last summer when trying out Linux VR. Phoronix has done a number of articles on it and I just followed along with that info. But even the author of those articles, who is as big of a Linux expert as there is online at least, well at least he was reasonable about the experience. His conclusions we're pretty much exactly what I thought about the experience as well.
notarat
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Things Microsoft Expects
1 - No one would use more than 640Kb of RAM
2 - Clippy
3 - Bob
4 - Zune
5 - ME
6 - Vista
7 - MSN
8 - Windows Phone
9 - Cortana
10 - WinX (S)
11 - The Spanish Inquisition
1 - No one would use more than 640Kb of RAM
2 - Clippy
3 - Bob
4 - Zune
5 - ME
6 - Vista
7 - MSN
8 - Windows Phone
9 - Cortana
10 - WinX (S)
11 - The Spanish Inquisition
heatlesssun
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But you can create a list of things that would draw tons of criticisms in a place like this:
1 - Azure
2 - Windows 2 in 1s/tablets
3 - Office Ribbon
4 - Windows Media Center
Of the things on this list, Windows Media Center would probably be the most popular, also the one that Microsoft dropped. But in 2018 I don't think it makes a lot of sense to expect lots of people record TV to a PC.
we were never on Phoenix it was supposed to be our upgrade, we are still on some ancient NT4 based system. Yes I am still maintaining an NT4 server. But at least it is virtualized now.When you get paid at all; Phoenix says hello!
defaultluser
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The problem is, there's only a SMALL MARKET for a store with that much control over you (outside of consumption devices like tablets and phones). Even Apple desktops let you install downloaded applications.
The Apple Store is only the success that it is because it was created to answer the question of "what the hell do you do with this fancy new iPhone, besides browse the web?" Once Jobs realized web apps were not going to cut-it, he designed the lock-down!
The reason The Microsoft Store S-Mode will never see that level of success is because THERE IS NO SUCH NEED. There are too many applications out there there that are perfectly happy running outside Metro, and MS can't make a good-enough case for security to entice all those developers to change over.
I mean, just look at the Steam Store. It's vastly more of a success, because it's multi-platform. And it never tried to entice you with a lock-down, outside of itself. You are free to run whatever the hell else you want!
I mean, I'm all for new applications being designed for Metro, you do whatever you want. but to pretend that S-Mode is the answer everyone has been searching for just proves MS has their hands stuck in their ears.
Windows is popular because it will RUN ALMOST ANYTHING.
This S-Mode will only be used by people who could have gotten-by with an Apple iPad or Chromebook but for some stupid reason bought a Windows machine. But the OEMs would be stupid of they turned it on by-default, so you'll have to dig for the setting to make it "just work"
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Steam doesn't actually even require a lock-down within itself. Whether to enable the Steam-integrated launcher (DRM) or not is left up to the game's publisher. There's a whole list of games on Steam that can be downloaded DRM-free, copied to another PC or USB flash drive, and never require Steam or online access to play. Of course most publishers enable DRM, but the opt-out is there for them, and Valve does not mandate DRM as a condition for being published on Steam.
Contrast that to Windows 10 Store, which technically _five_ layers of DRM - all mandatory. Even freeware is DRM'd with no opt out available to publishers, and the files are all obfuscated inside MS's encrypted UWP lockbox. But that's just the tip of the iceberg of what sets Steam and the Windows 10 store apart -- the latter is just cancerous, and not trustworthy.
If you ever bought a GFWL game you got screwed when they abandoned it.
If you ever bought a Windows Mobile app you got screwed when they abandoned it.
If you ever bought a Windows 8 Store app you got screwed when they rebranded it.
OTOH if you ever bought a title on Steam, you never get screwed just because a new version of an OS comes out.
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Todd Walter
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And functional. The most important aspect of the system is does it fulfill its purpose.
heatlesssun
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I have to VR headsets connected to my sig rig so I get that. But how many times have I heard over the years when I mention something that Windows only, "Most people just need a web browser." It's not an either/or situation. If you don't need multiple graphics cards or VR or high-end video editing software then what's wrong with the OPTION to run Windows that's going have far fewer issues with arbitrary and unvetted software installs that some don't have a need for?
My wife runs an HP Envy x2 Surface close machine. She can do most things on her phone but likes having a larger screen tablet for general web surfing, FB, etc. Win32 compatibility doesn't mean anything to her, neither would an iOS or other app store. As an option this makes sense and people are WAY overthinking it when it's obvious that plenty of people with basic needs would be fine with a Windows 10 machine running in S mode. Sure, not everyone and why making it an option, not another version, makes sense.
defaultluser
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Did I ever say they shouldn't have the option? ANYWHERE IN MY POSTS.
I'M STILL LOOKING.
I'm not against the mode. I'm responding to the BS press release that the majority of Windows users will use Mode S. REALITY: not in a hundred years.
Go ahead, write me a book on some tiny unimportant detail from my post, while ignoring the truth that I spelled out QUITE CLEARLY. THE MARKET FOR S-MODE is people who were looking for an iPad, but accidentally bought a Windows machine.
Your wife, for example. Assuming she only runs Microsoft Edge, and doesn't play games on Steam/Origin, and doesn't need some other software not in the store. That's a pretty small market.
Other stores have large numbers of users because they have unique circumstances. The Windows Store lacks all of those unique circumstances, so it will gain market-share even more slowly than Windows Phone did.
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heatlesssun
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Only because of platforms called Windows though.
defaultluser
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Did you want to add something SUBSTANTIVE AGAINST ANY of my claims, other than picking nits?
The Windows Store will NEVER BE MULTIPLATFORM, and that's the only reason I mentioned it. Stores that tightly-tied to a single platform are bound to fail on an operating system that's built on personal freedom. Other stores will just continue to walk miles around it.
heatlesssun
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Fair enough. I don't agree with the notion that most Windows users will use S mode but I also think a lot of Windows users would be fine with it.
Not exactly sure what yo mean by "The Windows Store lacks all of those unique circumstances." If you have a Windows 2 in 1 or tablet and use them with touch and pen, there's useful stuff in Store. If you're running Netflix on a Windows tablet for instance, the app works better than the web browser UI. Now, the Store doesn't begin to have the app count of Win32 but it's far from being useless also.
defaultluser
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I'm not saying there aren't useful apps in the store. Just that most existing Windows customers have a list of their preferred apps, and many of those will probably not be there.
New Windows customers are pretty rare these days.
It will gain market-share over time, but it will be incredibly slow, because there is no PRESSING NEED: despite Microsoft trying to get us freaked-out over app security, You're just as likely to be hit by a zero-day as you are to download malware. And the store won't save you from exploits.
And until they ACTUALLY FINISH Edge, that will continue to be a problem for people to accept S-Mode. You can't use other browsers in S-Mode.
It will definitely take over a hundred years to reach a majority of users. That's why I'm calling BS on that press release, assuming there will even be a Microsoft Windows 100 years from now.
MS has been *slowly* losing market share over the last decade. S-Mode might slow that bleed, but we'll have to wait and see. I really don't think the people that care are still using Windows devices - they've retired their PCs for iPads.
New Windows customers are pretty rare these days.
It will gain market-share over time, but it will be incredibly slow, because there is no PRESSING NEED: despite Microsoft trying to get us freaked-out over app security, You're just as likely to be hit by a zero-day as you are to download malware. And the store won't save you from exploits.
And until they ACTUALLY FINISH Edge, that will continue to be a problem for people to accept S-Mode. You can't use other browsers in S-Mode.
It will definitely take over a hundred years to reach a majority of users. That's why I'm calling BS on that press release, assuming there will even be a Microsoft Windows 100 years from now.
MS has been *slowly* losing market share over the last decade. S-Mode might slow that bleed, but we'll have to wait and see. I really don't think the people that care are still using Windows devices - they've retired their PCs for iPads.
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heatlesssun
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I'm not saying there aren't useful apps in the store. Just that most existing Windows customers have a list of their preferred apps, and most of those will probably not be there.
New Windows customers are pretty rare these days.
It will gain market-share over time, but it will be incredibly slow, because there is no PRESSING NEED. And until they ACTUALLY FINISH Edge, that will continue to be a problem.
It will definitely take over a hundred years to reach a majority of users. That's why I'm calling BS o that press release, assuming there will even be a Microsoft Windows 100 years from now
It all boils down to how much one wants or needs the Win32 ecosystem. I have to have it, I far too much money tied into things like Windows only games on Steam, S mode won't work for me. I'm constantly told by pro-Linux/anti-Microsoft folks that I represent a tiny minority of Windows users though.
Understand that anti-Microsoft folks coming at it from both sides from "No one needs Windows!" to "Everyone needs Windows Win32 only apps!" The truth is in the middle. This is why I think as an option S mode makes sense.
defaultluser
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I am a Windows user.
Everyone in my life either uses a ton of Win32 apps, or has abandoned the platform for an iPad or Mac. Linux is just a single person.
The transition has already long happened. If Windows Store and Metro had been around back in the Windows Vista days (and the launch hadn't been the clusterfuck that was Win8), then they could have held onto those people.
But the reality of the situation is quite different. Today the Windows Store S-Mode has ALMOST ZERO potential customers currently on Windows. It will take a long time to get them back, because jumping from one closed system to another takes a lot of effort.
Everyone in my life either uses a ton of Win32 apps, or has abandoned the platform for an iPad or Mac. Linux is just a single person.
The transition has already long happened. If Windows Store and Metro had been around back in the Windows Vista days (and the launch hadn't been the clusterfuck that was Win8), then they could have held onto those people.
But the reality of the situation is quite different. Today the Windows Store S-Mode has ALMOST ZERO potential customers currently on Windows. It will take a long time to get them back, because jumping from one closed system to another takes a lot of effort.
heatlesssun
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Maybe you're right. Again, there's just tons that say all some people are need the basics. If not then S mode doesn't limit you to that. It's one reason why I never was a fan of Windows RT. I have a lot of Windows 2 in 1s but never touched Windows RT because it was tied to the Windows Store with no options of moving. And as bad as the Store is now, it was WAY worse 6 years ago. At least now there are some Win32 apps in the store.
As an option S mode makes sense. It's doesn't as much as standalone platform.
Maybe it's all in the wording, the Majority will use it (until they turn it off)
motomonkey
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So you game in an even smaller walled garden than windows? SMH