Microsoft Expects the “Majority of Customers” to Use Windows 10’s S Mode

Big_Rig_Stig said:
Uh huh. Either you like living with a noose around your neck (or one to your wallet), or you're a Microsoft employee.
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As soon as alll the Linux fanbois pull together and fix it so you don’t have 50 Flavors of Linux, that don’t play well together, and will run AAA games out of the box, just like Windows, I’ll swap over 100%.

I have a Linux box right now, has steam on it, damn shame it only has about 10% of my windows steam library available, and even the ones I have, not all of them run properly. I’m not exactly computer illiterate, if I’m not comfortable with Linux’s many quirks, how are you going to convince the rest of the computer users out there?

You can blather on about having a noose around our necks all you want, but until can get your own house in order, it’s just noise.
 
motomonkey said:
I have a Linux box right now, has steam on it, damn shame it only has about 10% of my windows steam library available, and even the ones I have, not all of them run properly. I’m not exactly computer illiterate, if I’m not comfortable with Linux’s many quirks, how are you going to convince the rest of the computer users out there?
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I always get a kick out this. The biggest "noose" I have around my neck when it comes to sticking with Windows like many others as you just pointed out is Steam. Linux fans can preach all they want about "Microsoft employees", there's no point using Linux when it's going to break compatibility with thousands of dollars in hardware and software with no straightforward alternatives.
 
defaultluser said:
Windows is popular because it will RUN ALMOST ANYTHING.
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There in lies why Windows is the insecure mess that it is. Open platforms where you can run anything you want are nice... until they're not.

defaultluser said:
This S-Mode will only be used by people who could have gotten-by with an Apple iPad or Chromebook but for some stupid reason bought a Windows machine.
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I'd go so far as to say that for a vast majority of people (more than 95% of all computer users) a full desktop is way overkill, they absolutely do not need that kind of power. An iPad would be more than capable of doing what they need to do especially for those that just do simple web browsing, email, and Facebook. Unfortunately tech enthusiasts (like us here at HardOCP) are too blinded by our love of high-end hardware to see that.

heatlesssun said:
As an option this makes sense and people are WAY overthinking it when it's obvious that plenty of people with basic needs would be fine with a Windows 10 machine running in S mode.
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Exactly. Lots of people use computers for simple things like web browsing, email, Facebook, etc. An iPad could cover their needs. We here at HardOCP may make fun of devices like that because we see them as locked down platforms but for those people who simply have basic needs an iPad will do just fine.

motomonkey said:
As soon as alll the Linux fanbois pull together and fix it so you don’t have 50 Flavors of Linux, that don’t play well together, and will run AAA games out of the box, just like Windows, I’ll swap over 100%.
...
You can blather on about having a noose around our necks all you want, but until can get your own house in order, it’s just noise.
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heatlesssun said:
I always get a kick out this. The biggest "noose" I have around my neck when it comes to sticking with Windows like many others as you just pointed out is Steam. Linux fans can preach all they want about "Microsoft employees", there's no point using Linux when it's going to break compatibility with thousands of dollars in hardware and software with no straightforward alternatives.
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That'll never happen.
 
trparky said:
There in lies why Windows is the insecure mess that it is. Open platforms where you can run anything you want are nice... until they're not.
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Exactly. Strengths can be weaknesses and the shear bulk of Win32 code out there is clearly both. Great when you want access to a desktop application, not so much when that Win32 code is malware.
 
Win32 is the legacy bloat dragging Windows performance down. There is a lighter/faster, high performance, better Windows to be had when it drops Win32 bloat.

Nothing is going to be lost in terms of pro-use, whether they be virtualized or otherwise, other avenues will be opened for pro's.

Windows needs to drain the Win32 swamp!

lol.
 
BloodyIron said:
There are THOUSANDS of games for Linux on Steam. Seriously, you're not using walled garden correctly here...
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There are MANY MORE THOUSANDS of games on Steam for Windows. Hell there are thousands of games in the Microsoft Store that would run under Windows 10 S mode. Virtually every PC game in every PC game store is Windows compatible. That's like the opposite of a walled garden.
 
motomonkey said:
Of all the things to point out as being a strong point of Linux, Games should not even make the list.
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I get that before Steam started supporting Linux gaming five years ago, who would have every thought of gaming on Linux? So the situation has progressed a lot. But not relative to Windows. Yes, Windows too has progressed even more so. When a developer says their game is coming to the PC that doesn't mean Linux. Take a look a Steam gift card:

steam-gift-card-50.png


Even Valve understands that PC gaming means Windows gaming. Steam, that noose around my neck that keeps me on Windows.
 
It doesn't fucking matter. It's not a numbers game. I play so many games in Linux I don't give a shit about gaming in Windows any more. Jesus christ guys, get the fuck over your dick waving contests.

heatlesssun said:
There are MANY MORE THOUSANDS of games on Steam for Windows. Hell there are thousands of games in the Microsoft Store that would run under Windows 10 S mode. Virtually every PC game in every PC game store is Windows compatible. That's like the opposite of a walled garden.
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Too bad, because gaming on Linux is actually a thing now. Just because there are games that aren't on Linux, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of games that run very well on Linux.

Welcome to 2018.

motomonkey said:
Of all the things to point out as being a strong point of Linux, Games should not even make the list.
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But if they're not the popular games, who cares? I certainly don't. And as long as the popular games (you know, the ones that matter) only run on Windows, Linux will always be seen as a second class citizen in the gaming world.
 
BloodyIron said:
It doesn't fucking matter. It's not a numbers game. I play so many games in Linux I don't give a shit about gaming in Windows any more. Jesus christ guys, get the fuck over your dick waving contests.
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I though I was supposed to be the Microsoft employee. Because if it's not a numbers game then what's the problem with Windows 10 S mode? The #1 complaint about it is that it doesn't run the large numbers of Win32 apps out there.

It's fine that you don't give a shit about Windows gaming. If you threw away thousands of dollars of Windows games to be a Linux guy, that's your choice.
 
trparky said:
But if they're not the popular games, who cares? I certainly don't. And as long as the popular games (you know, the ones that matter) only run on Windows, Linux will always be seen as a second class citizen in the gaming world.
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Amazing how Linux folks preach about options and choice. Except gaming and applications. Whatever you get there is just fine.
 
I'll make this brutally easy for you.

I don't like Windows 10. I LIKE Linux. I enjoy Linux, I have FUN ... GAMING in Linux.

If you can't handle that, too fucking bad.

heatlesssun said:
I though I was supposed to be the Microsoft employee. Because if it's not a numbers game then what's the problem with Windows 10 S mode? The #1 complaint about it is that it doesn't run the large numbers of Win32 apps out there.

It's fine that you don't give a shit about Windows gaming. If you threw away thousands of dollars of Windows games to be a Linux guy, that's your choice.
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BloodyIron said:
I don't like Windows 10. I LIKE Linux. I enjoy Linux, I have FUN ... GAMING in Linux.
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No one here is arguing your personal preferences. The issue was calling Windows a walled garden when it comes to PC gaming. Since virtually all PC games support Windows that makes no sense.
 
BloodyIron said:
Too bad, because gaming on Linux is actually a thing now. Just because there are games that aren't on Linux, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of games that run very well on Linux.

Welcome to 2018.
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To bad the game selection compared to windows still feels like 2008. Cheer up, they keep making stupid decisions at Micro$oft like this, and Linux might have another chance at going mainstream!
 
No, I called it a Wall Garden just plain that.

Consider the following.

1. When you install Windows 10, it repeatedly tries to convince you to use a Microsoft Online account as your account for your computer. No option presented for Google, Apple, or other accounts (apart from local offline, which is a buried option).
2. The UWP is gaming in a walled garden. Games released on UWP will NOT be available on STEAM (last I checked) and only available on Windows 10 and xBox. Not Linux, Not Apple, Not even older versions of Windows.
3. Windows 10 does not give you any control over _which_ updates to install, and Microsoft has intentionally bundled updates together so even if you could choose, you really have no selection anyways. This is a stark difference from how Windows 7 and 8 worked, plus WSUS.
4. Windows has a lot of built-in services that _ONLY_ interface with Microsoft services, such as oneDrive, oneNote, and so much more. Sure, it's good to have these tools, but they come pre-installed, and many of them are a pig to remove. Consider that many of the alternative applications can interface with many different content providers. This calls back to #1 where it all "works together, as long as you're in the ecosystem" effectively along the same lines that Apple operates.

There's more, but this is just a sample of what I'm talking about here. It's not just gaming.

Why I prefer Linux is for a LOT of reasons, but one of those is that I get the CHOICE of what I can use.

heatlesssun said:
No one here is arguing your personal preferences. The issue was calling Windows a walled garden when it comes to PC gaming. Since virtually all PC games support Windows that makes no sense.
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The game selection doesn't feel like that. I literally play games released within the last year, like Day of Infamy. I completely disagree. That is, unless you like EA's shovelware. If you do, have at it, it's all yours.

motomonkey said:
To bad the game selection compared to windows still feels like 2008. Cheer up, they keep making stupid decisions at Micro$oft like this, and Linux might have another chance at going mainstream!
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BloodyIron said:
Why I prefer Linux is for a LOT of reasons, but one of those is that I get the CHOICE of what I can use.
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​

BloodyIron said:
The game selection doesn't feel like that. I literally play games released within the last year, like Day of Infamy. I completely disagree. That is, unless you like EA's shovelware. If you do, have at it, it's all yours.
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Choices on Steam under Linux are extremely limited though. I have about 40 games in Origin but 380 in Steam of which only 70 have native Linux clients. For whatever reason Linux folks don't seem to understand just how much Steam can tie a user to Windows. Every time I mention VR, something that Valve has promoted heavily, Linux folks go crazy. Of course that wouldn't be the case if Valve hadn't totally dropped the ball with Linux VR support which two years after Windows is still a mess.

I get the issue that you and others have with Windows 10. But geez, all I'm saying is that I'd like to use the thousands of dollars in hardware and software I paid for that doesn't work with Linux.
 
Most of my gaming on Linux is from STEAM.

And all your hardware works in Linux.

heatlesssun said:
Choices on Steam under Linux are extremely limited though. I have about 40 games in Origin but 380 in Steam of which only 70 have native Linux clients. For whatever reason Linux folks don't seem to understand just how much Steam can tie a user to Windows. Every time I mention VR, something that Valve has promoted heavily, Linux folks go crazy. Of course that wouldn't be the case if Valve hadn't totally dropped the ball with Linux VR support which two years after Windows is still a mess.

I get the issue that you and others have with Windows 10. But geez, all I'm saying is that I'd like to use the thousands of dollars in hardware and software I paid for that doesn't work with Linux.
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notarat said:
Things Microsoft Expects

1 - No one would use more than 640Kb of RAM
2 - Clippy
3 - Bob
4 - Zune
5 - ME
6 - Vista
7 - MSN
8 - Windows Phone
9 - Cortana
10 - WinX (S)
11 - The Spanish Inquisition
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BS.... Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 
BloodyIron said:
Most of my gaming on Linux is from STEAM.

And all your hardware works in Linux.
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Most of my gaming on Windows is from Steam also with only 20% Linux compatibility. And the VR stuff that Valve promotes (hardware) practically speaking doesn't work under Linux. I looked into last summer and so far I've not see jack shit that says it's improved much since then.

The thing that I get a kick out of from Linux folks that talk about the wonders of gaming on Linux with Steam is that the VR stuff I use that's beyond fucked up under Linux is stuff that Steam/Valve was pushing, not Microsoft. Listen for a second. I wouldn't have bought into VR without Valve pushing it. And that tied me even more to Windows than I was before.

Folks like you will blast the fuck out of me, but you don't listen any better than Microsoft. You don't even seem to be aware that it is Steam pushing VR in the PC space and totally forgot the fuck about Linux.
 
BloodyIron said:
There are THOUSANDS of games for Linux on Steam. Seriously, you're not using walled garden correctly here...
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As much as I want to back you on this, I do have to say that there are far more games on Windows than on Linux, and while game support on Linux was never meant to be a walled garden, it's support has only been around for about the last five years or so, where as Windows support for games has been around for 30+ years.
Linux support does continually rise with each game released, but it still has a long ways to go before one could truly abandon Windows for gaming all together.

heatlesssun said:
The thing that I get a kick out of from Linux folks that talk about the wonders of gaming on Linux with Steam is that the VR stuff I use that's beyond fucked up under Linux is stuff that Steam/Valve was pushing, not Microsoft.
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People that know anything about Linux (Debian/Ununtu/Mint in this case) would never question this and would understand the limited developer support for things like VR.
While many of us *cough* :joyful: would love to move totally away from Windows where games are involved, we do also have to realize that there is limited support, and a limited market, for games purely (or secondarily) on Linux - OS X support is kind of in the same boat, but even OS X support has been around for quite a bit longer.

If this were 2013, I would have argued tooth-and-nail with you about this - and come up with better arguments than what I'm seeing in this thread, heh - but the reality is, the support just isn't there yet.
Maybe in 10-20 more years Linux fans will have more of an argument (assuming both Linux and Windows are still around at that point), but until then, it will be a steady, but small, rise in continued support and development with cost and ROI being the two biggest factors and gambles.
 
I'm so sick of this bullshit argument. So fucking what if Windows has "more games" than Linux. When is it ever going to be enough? I game on Linux, get with the times.

Red Falcon said:
As much as I want to back you on this, I do have to say that there are far more games on Windows than on Linux, and while game support on Linux was never meant to be a walled garden, it's support has only been around for about the last five years or so, where as Windows support for games has been around for 30+ years.
Linux support does continually rise with each game released, but it still has a long ways to go before one could truly abandon Windows for gaming all together.


People that know anything about Linux (Debian/Ununtu/Mint in this case) would never question this and would understand the limited developer support for things like VR.
While many of us *cough* :joyful: would love to move totally away from Windows where games are involved, we do also have to realize that there is limited support, and a limited market, for games purely (or secondarily) on Linux - OS X support is kind of in the same boat, but even OS X support has been around for quite a bit longer.

If this were 2013, I would have argued tooth-and-nail with you about this - and come up with better arguments than what I'm seeing in this thread, heh - but the reality is, the support just isn't there yet.
Maybe in 10-20 more years Linux fans will have more of an argument (assuming both Linux and Windows are still around at that point), but until then, it will be a steady, but small, rise in continued support and development with cost and ROI being the two biggest factors and gambles.
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VR on Linux is marked at beta, go figure it has beta qualities.

heatlesssun said:
Most of my gaming on Windows is from Steam also with only 20% Linux compatibility. And the VR stuff that Valve promotes (hardware) practically speaking doesn't work under Linux. I looked into last summer and so far I've not see jack shit that says it's improved much since then.

The thing that I get a kick out of from Linux folks that talk about the wonders of gaming on Linux with Steam is that the VR stuff I use that's beyond fucked up under Linux is stuff that Steam/Valve was pushing, not Microsoft. Listen for a second. I wouldn't have bought into VR without Valve pushing it. And that tied me even more to Windows than I was before.

Folks like you will blast the fuck out of me, but you don't listen any better than Microsoft. You don't even seem to be aware that it is Steam pushing VR in the PC space and totally forgot the fuck about Linux.
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BloodyIron said:
I'm so sick of this bullshit argument. So fucking what if Windows has "more games" than Linux. When is it ever going to be enough? I game on Linux, get with the times.
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Yeah, I game on Linux and have been since 2011 with Steam on Ubuntu 10.04LTS, years before it was even natively supported on the platform and before "Linux gaming" was even a thing, so apparently I was "with the times", as you stated, long before you and nearly everyone else on here was. :cool:
The argument isn't bullshit, it is a legitimate claim.

As for the "when is it enough" question, that really is the million dollar question, and I believe will only be answered once a vast majority of the games released in the past, as well as nearly all new games being released are platform-agnostic (which from a technical standpoint is nearly impossible across the board due to costs, technical differences, time to develop, etc.).
I want to play Far Cry 4 on Linux... oh wait, can't really do that, not even with WINE - I'm not pointing this game out to be rude about it, as it is a legitimate want, yet the game isn't available on Linux, as many games still are not and may never be, yet these same games are available on Windows and, to a lesser extent, OS X.

As I pointed out above, costs, technical limitations, additional time to develop, etc. are all very big limiting factors and really is up to the game being developed, the skills of the developers, and the budget allotted to said games and devs.
Windows is also the market-share leader in terms of OS ownership ratio, so to most developers and publishers, both major league and indie, so developing for Windows first is the best bet for mitigating costs and hitting the most amount of customers by default.

OS X and Linux are, most of the time, after-thoughts since developing for them first or solely is quite a large gamble due to the very small OS market share, especially Linux - I mean GNU/Linux when I refer to Linux as well, not Droid/Linux.
If you still think this is all bullshit, then I suggest you learn a thing or two about how businesses and market shares operate.

VR is an even smaller market share all around, let alone on Linux, but I do think that it is very good news that it is at least in beta.
I've been there since the beginning with gaming on Linux, and have played DOOM 3 and Quake 4 natively on Linux, again, years before "Linux gaming" was ever a thing - props to the devs for making this possible for both of these games back in the mid-2000s as well, they were treading new ground.

I might also point out that DOOM 3 and Quake 4 were both natively released on Linux, yet despite this, both titles are still only available with the Windows version on Steam - kind of interesting.
However, after all of this, I do think your heart is in the right place, and I, like you, want nothing more than to see Linux to overtake and completely replace Windows as the primary gaming OS platform of choice - but I do live in reality and, as evidenced over the last five years of seeing the evolution of native gaming on Linux, I have to say that it will be a long, slow, uphill journey for this to eventually happen.

https://betanews.com/2013/02/15/valve-launches-steam-for-linux-and-announces-a-celebration-sale/

steam%20linux_0.jpg

Again, I was there, gaming on Linux, years before the above occurred and long before the beta ever began. :sneaky:
 
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DPI said:
That really more describes the entire, post-7 era of Metro/UWP touch and store app suck. There were decent kernel improvements beginning with Windows 8, though they haven't really changed much in WIndows 10 (aka 8.2 - some of the earliest Windows 10 preview builds actually had Windows 8.2 versioning stamped in the DLL's and EXE's), but none of the touch-oriented, windows 10 Store cellphone apps have made desktop workflows any better.

Unfortunately, the "legacy garbage" is the only reason anyone cares about Windows, so when Win32 is dead then Windows itself will be.
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The problem is also x86...it's and old, legacy written ISA that belongs in the last millenium....when they finallly smells the roses and move on to contemporary ISA...we can start looking at operating systems...but as long as we are stuck with x86....it makes little sense.
 
On the PC side, it has been Microsoft who has made PC gaming what it is, at least as far as the OS is concerned. DOS, Windows 95, DirectX and thing I probably am not thinking of are what made PC gaming available to the masses. Being able to play DOS games in a window back in the day was cool and fun. Like Red Falcon, I have been playing games on Linux before Linux gaming was ever even a thing. Cedera was useful and but ultimately failed. Steam on Linux supports very few of my Steam games.

Heck, here is the thing, the only system to even compete let alone be better than Microsoft was the Amiga and Amiga OS. That system had far more games in it's time than Linux does today, natively speaking. Also, that is back in the day when you had to buy your game or use shareware to get it.
 
BloodyIron said:
I'm so sick of this bullshit argument. So fucking what if Windows has "more games" than Linux. When is it ever going to be enough? I game on Linux, get with the times.
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It's not just that Windows gets more games, virtually all games that come to the PC are Windows compatible. With Linux it's only 20% and often times those titles come well after their release on Windows. That's just not good enough to draw the average PC gamer away from Windows.

BloodyIron said:
VR on Linux is marked at beta, go figure it has beta qualities.
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Sure, but Steam VR has been out in general release for two years for Windows. Michael Larabel of Phoronix has been covering Linux VR for some time now and even he, hardly a Windows fan boy, has wondered way the progress of Linux Steam VR has been so slow.
 
Why do you keep hammering on VR? High-end GPUs for gamers have been practically non-existent for some time and VR was sputtering before then. It's not like there's any killer app for VR I'm dying to play.

Linux has reached the point that its a viable gaming platform.
 
When did this become a "gaming on windows vs gaming on Linux thread?" I swear, some people cannot get outside of their tired old arguments. The article is about Windows S mode.

Maybe y'all should get a separate room so those of us who are actually interested in talking about "S" mode don't have to put up with this petty bickering.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Why do you keep hammering on VR? High-end GPUs for gamers have been practically non-existent for some time and VR was sputtering before then. It's not like there's any killer app for VR I'm dying to play.

Linux has reached the point that its a viable gaming platform.
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According to the latest Steam Hardware Survey Linux and VR systems have the same market share at .28%. I know some people will debate the accuracy of these numbers but I do think they give the general idea, both are quite niche.
 
jardows said:
When did this become a "gaming on windows vs gaming on Linux thread?" I swear, some people cannot get outside of their tired old arguments. The article is about Windows S mode.

Maybe y'all should get a separate room so those of us who are actually interested in talking about "S" mode don't have to put up with this petty bickering.
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If Microsoft keeps going this route they're going to lose the desktop to Linux.

If Microsoft wants to compete in the mobile/tablet space then they need to make an OS product for that space. Windows 7 was damn near the perfect desktop OS. I would have been fine if Microsoft had made Windows 7 support an ongoing subscription product and focused on new things. I will never use or support Windows 10, it's awful.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
If Microsoft keeps going this route they're going to lose the desktop to Linux.

If Microsoft wants to compete in the mobile/tablet space then they need to make an OS product for that space. Windows 7 was damn near the perfect desktop OS. I would have been fine if Microsoft had made Windows 7 support an ongoing subscription product and focused on new things. I will never use or support Windows 10, it's awful.
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That's your opinion, and you're entitled to have one. I, for one, think Windows 10 is a good overall improvement over Windows 7. Just a little customization with the built-in settings to overcome the quirks, and I'm good to go.

The big question really is, does sandboxed, controlled access programs cause a lesser computing experience than the free-wheeling of Win32? If the programs you want and need are available, would this not be a good development model? Let's take out the MS/Linux bias and just consider the concept itself for regular desktop computing.
 
jardows said:
The big question really is, does sandboxed, controlled access programs cause a lesser computing experience than the free-wheeling of Win32? If the programs you want and need are available, would this not be a good development model? Let's take out the MS/Linux bias and just consider the concept itself for regular desktop computing.
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This indeed the big question and the answer will depend on the user scenario. There's more than enough in the Microsoft Store for basic users but there gaps like browsers and of core the Store is very small sliver of the fill Win32 ecosystem which could cause even some basic users to say, "meh, turning off S mode." As an option it does make sense but how much sense it can make will depend on how much better the Store gets and the willingness of devs to package their Win32 apps for the Store.
 
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