Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Automatic Spying Cannot Be Stopped

ManofGod said:
Clicked, the link, saw who the author was, laughed out loud and closed that page. That dude has shown his ignorance and lack of objectivity in the past, nothing has changed.
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Executioner said:
What about the comments directly from Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore?
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heatlesssun said:
At this point there's little being added to the conversation based in much fact. I seriously doubt that Microsoft is just lying about how this works and are just uploading everything they can and that the nearly two dozen privacy settings don't do anything.

If all of the critics are right then something really, really bad is going to happen sometime. I'm guessing it will be like Armageddon predicted every year. Which should make people wonder about those predictions.
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ccman said:
Because a quote by Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore isn't fact or shouldn't be taken as such. No one is saying Joe Belfiore is lying that I'm aware of.
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of course the 2 biggest W10 and MS supporters don't respond (ManofGod, heatlessun)
 
polonyc2 said:
of course the 2 biggest W10 and MS supporters don't respond (ManofGod, heatlessun)
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Not exactly sure what you mean. My view of it has been that there are some assumptions being made that have no evidence. Microsoft has been pretty clear about what they say they are doing. In the case where all of the privacy settings are off, they say there is no personal data being collected. The only data collection that cannot be turned off for consumers is the Basic diagnostic setting, which again Microsoft says is not collecting personal data.

Basic information is data that is vital to the operation of Windows. This data helps keep Windows and apps running properly by letting Microsoft know the capabilities of your device, what is installed, and whether Windows is operating correctly. This option also turns on basic error reporting back to Microsoft. If you select this option, we’ll be able to provide updates to Windows (through Windows Update, including malicious software protection by the Malicious Software Removal Tool), but some apps and features may not work correctly or at all.
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http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/feedback-diagnostics-privacy-faq

Beyond that I've pointed it there's little else. That's not to say that there isn't an issue. Maybe the basic telemetry is collecting personal data of something personally identifying. Maybe all or some of the around two dozen privacy settings don't stop sending data when turned off. Maybe Microsoft is lying.

Without any evidence all you or I or anyone else can say is here's what Microsoft has said about the issue. Maybe it's all true or some of it true or all it is a lie. Again without facts all one can do is point at all possibilities, remote or otherwise.

The only thing I can think of is if Microsoft provided some kind of explicit and complete list of every potential data point that is collected for every setting and had every line of code reviewed by an independent and very trustworthy 3rd party.

But even if they took such dramatic measures I doubt that would change the conversation much. No doubt if they did pass such an audit there would be rumors of payoffs or coercion by many of the most vocal critics.

If the critics are right, then sooner or later something really bad is going to happen as a result of all of this "spying". Nor nothing at all. In any case, no one has given a rational explanation why Microsoft would put itself at such extraordinary risk doing by doing things is said it isn't doing. They'd be putting themselves at virtually unlimited risk for no reason. Why would a $500 billion company put itself at risk over deception it doesn't need to make? Yes out of the box it's Windows 10 collects and leverages tons of information, that's as plain as day. Many users probably won't even bother turning it all off to get some of the benefits like voice activation, location tracking for apps, data synching and so on. Why have options to turn it all off except the basic telemetry and still collect all that data anyway?
 
Sooo... How does Apple respect their customer's privacy, relatively speaking? Might not be a bad time to build a hackintosh!
 
heatlesssun said:
If the critics are right, then sooner or later something really bad is going to happen as a result of all of this "spying". Nor nothing at all. In any case, no one has given a rational explanation why Microsoft would put itself at such extraordinary risk doing by doing things is said it isn't doing. They'd be putting themselves at virtually unlimited risk for no reason. Why would a $500 billion company put itself at risk over deception it doesn't need to make? Yes out of the box it's Windows 10 collects and leverages tons of information, that's as plain as day. Many users probably won't even bother turning it all off to get some of the benefits like voice activation, location tracking for apps, data synching and so on. Why have options to turn it all off except the basic telemetry and still collect all that data anyway?
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it doesn't need to be an Armageddon situation...isn't what they have already admitted enough to get you to question them and/or their motivations?...do you really not care at all about all the data they are admitting collecting and all the control they are exerting over the end-user?...Belfiore has admitted that the spying cannot be stopped and is a 'feature' of the new OS...I don't need to know all the specific data points they are collecting as the concept of what they're doing is disturbing enough...

"By default Windows 10 Home is allowed to control your bandwidth usage, install any software it wants whenever it wants (without providing detailed information on what these updates do), display ads in the Start Menu (currently it has been limited to app advertisements), send your hardware details and any changes you make to Microsoft and even log your browser history and keystrokes which the Windows End User Licence Agreement (EULA) states you allow Microsoft to use for analysis"
 
polonyc2 said:
it doesn't need to be an Armageddon situation...isn't what they have already admitted enough to get you to question them and/or their motivations?...do you really not care at all about all the data they are admitting collecting and all the control they are exerting over the end-user?...Belfiore has admitted that the spying cannot be stopped and is a 'feature' of the new OS...I don't need to know all the specific data points they are collecting as the concept of what they're doing is disturbing enough...

"By default Windows 10 Home is allowed to control your bandwidth usage, install any software it wants whenever it wants (without providing detailed information on what these updates do), display ads in the Start Menu (currently it has been limited to app advertisements), send your hardware details and any changes you make to Microsoft and even log your browser history and keystrokes which the Windows End User Licence Agreement (EULA) states you allow Microsoft to use for analysis"
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I use the OS on a lot of machines so I care more than many who don't use it. I've read Microsoft's EULA and statements and numerous articles and posts about the subject.

All I am saying is that without facts most of this is at best guessing. I know what the default settings do. I use Cortana and it's clear that in order for it do the things it does it has to have access to a lot of personal information. In the latest build for instance, if you have a Windows phone and tell a PC to send a text to one of your contacts, just by name it'll know who that is if it's in your contacts, know the number, ask you to pick a number if there are multiple numbers and then forward the text to the phone and send it from there.

For this to work it clearly used a lot of data. And everyone's phones do pretty much the same thing. And I don't think you read the Windows 10 EULA.
 
I guess everyone will be buying Enterprise, and the only reason they did it in Enterprise is because they want companies to keep using windows.
 
ManofGod said:
Yes, unless you have proof otherwise. What you think is not relevant, proof is required.
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You've got it backwards. The burden of proof is on Microsoft, not their customers. It's their mindshare and consumer confidence to continue to lose. It's their new software they want everyone running. They claim they don't want Windows 7 to become the new XP, but their actions are only ensuring it will. There are only so many clueless end users that trojan nagware upgrade tactics are going to work on before the well is dry. They've dug their heels in on all the consumer-hostile stuff that is making headlines, and longtime Windows users on 7 and 8 have dug their heels in on the privacy issues and refused to upgrade. No matter which stats you look at - Steam, Netmarketshare, they all show the same: uptake has progressively slowed every month since launch. Allowing the privacy issues to fester rather than pulling their heads out and giving people a real opt-out *now* is sabotaging uptake.

They rolled the dice on the "try to force change, stonewall and ignore complaints and hope it blows over" strategy in Windows 8, and lost spectacularly. Why are they rolling that same die again? Eventually (6-12+ months) they'll probably give non-Enterprise SKU's a real data collection opt-out, but by then the die will already be cast and the reputation of 10 will be irreparable -- 8 all over again. That's so inept you want to weep.
 
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MrGuvernment said:
I guess everyone will be buying Enterprise, and the only reason they did it in Enterprise is because they want companies to keep using windows.
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Prices on Amazon at the moment:
Windows 10 Home 64 Bit System Builder: $93.91
Windows 10 Home USB Flash Drive: $119
Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit System Builder: $130.50
Windows 10 Pro USB Flash Drive: $199.00
Windows 10 Enterprise: Er... hm... volume licensing... how do I even buy Enterprise and how much does it cost when I do?
 
You can't buy Windows 10 Enterprise, it's not sold in consumer channels nor is it sold in individual units either meaning it's not a consumer level OS - it's sold strictly in volume licensing arrangements and so anyone that's not part of MSDN (to be used strictly for development purposes only and not a "daily runner" OS) or part of a business with the appropriate licensing should not be using that edition. If you come across someone that is using Enterprise, it's either a) a legit business machine with the proper COA sticker on the hardware or b) someone that is doing it illegally aka pirating the OS.

These days, because of all the privacy and telemetry bullshit, what you'll find is a great number of people in the "b" column. ;)

The thing that kills me the most is all the effort people go through to use Windows 10 even in spite of knowing all the privacy issues and the telemetry are right there and aren't going anywhere and can be re-enabled at most any time with a future update without notification to the end user - hell, for all we know there could be code in Windows 10 natively that checks for such components being disabled and simply re-enables them or even re-installs them without any user intervention whatsoever. It could even restore the hosts file automagically over a period of time too, who knows.

As noted in a prior post, the fact that it's not HIPAA compliant is a major RED FLAG that people should take note of and use as a point of reference with respect to their personal data and info and potential privacy concerns.

Stunning that people even bother with that OS, it really is, makes no fucking sense to me whatsoever but whatever. :confused:
 
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ManofGod said:
Yes, unless you have proof otherwise. What you think is not relevant, proof is required.
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I don't have to prove an opinion. Many other people and tech web sites do not believe Microsoft's claim that it was an "accident" either.

Did Microsoft provide proof it was an accident?

The fact they have said that in 2016 it will be made a recommended download is proof enough it was no "accident".
 
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Tiberian said:
You can't buy Windows 10 Enterprise, it's not sold in consumer channels nor is it sold in individual units either meaning it's not a consumer level OS - it's sold strictly in volume licensing arrangements and so anyone that's not part of MSDN (to be used strictly for development purposes only and not a "daily runner" OS) or part of a business with the appropriate licensing should not be using that edition. If you come across someone that is using Enterprise, it's either a) a legit business machine with the proper COA sticker on the hardware or b) someone that is doing it illegally aka pirating the OS.
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Because of this piracy of Enterprise will become rampant when word gets around.
Way to go MS, making it the only easy way of sorting out much of the spyware and give a few more benefits.
Maybe this will force them to sort out other versions. Although I doubt they will get their heads out of the sand.
 
Can anyone provide sources showing Windows10 is not HIPAA compliant? At the moment I "suspect" it may run afowl of HIPAA and potentially some state regulations regarding the handling of PI and PII. However, I am going to need real concrete proof before I stir up a shitstorm that's going to involve legal, IT, and a good chunk of the C suite.

Thanks.
 
Franko said:
Can anyone provide sources showing Windows10 is not HIPAA compliant? At the moment I "suspect" it may run afowl of HIPAA and potentially some state regulations regarding the handling of PI and PII. However, I am going to need real concrete proof before I stir up a shitstorm that's going to involve legal, IT, and a good chunk of the C suite.

Thanks.
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Here Here! I want some info as well. I have seen the response from MS (forgot to bookmark... :/ ) that you are "on your own" about such things. I want some specifics.
Yes, I have heard of several medical offices reacting negatively to Win 10. But, I too, need some nails to hang the evidence on.

Yet, I feel it is suspect when you cannot find any article which gives full info on the situation. It is like MS is scrubbing the media.

Even in their own forums, when people ask, point blank, if Windows 10 is compliant, they move the question to the "discussion" area, so they do not (seemingly) have to respond.
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...e/037e3f2e-8262-42eb-8909-05832e856645?auth=1

Disturbing.

Here is a blogger (yes, I know, weak sauce in the aspect of "proof") who lays out the concerns simply (in an attempt to sell something... but the points are valid.)
http://blog.capterra.com/hipaa-compliance-and-windows-10-5-things-you-need-to-know/

Reread the EULA for 10. By default, you should be wary, as it seems to state MS will pull data which would violate HIPAA... I know it is a blanket, and typical, overreaching EULA, but still....


When even Forbes compares you to "Big Brother," you have issues.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonk...cking/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix
 
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Nenu said:
Because of this piracy of Enterprise will become rampant when word gets around.
Way to go MS, making it the only easy way of sorting out much of the spyware and give a few more benefits.
Maybe this will force them to sort out other versions. Although I doubt they will get their heads out of the sand.
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What do you mean "will become rampant"? Since a few days before the public release of Windows 10 that LTSB edition of Windows 10 Enterprise has been pirated probably a few million times and I am not kidding in the slightest, not for a microsecond.

Nothing is going to change at this point and it's full steam ahead for Microsoft - 110 million installs of Windows 10 and climbing is proof of this.

Even when faced with the truth of what's going on, people still just see only the "FREE WINDOWS 10 UPGRADE" and pounce on it - all reason goes out the window as people only see that no cost upgrade to the "latest and greatest" and judgment goes right with it.

Luckily I'm not one of the sheep, never have been, never will be but I'm not alone - I'm just in the minority, unfortunately.
 
Tiberian said:
Nothing is going to change at this point and it's full steam ahead for Microsoft - 110 million installs of Windows 10 and climbing is proof of this.
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Disagree. It's climbing but also slowing, gaining less ground every day. That's not full steam ahead. At current rate of uptake deceleration, it'll take 7-10 years for 10 to catch up to 7.

If MS chooses to ignore the privacy backlash preventing many people from upgrading, they'll be cementing 7 as the new XP.
 
odditory said:
Not to mention Windows 10 is not HIPAA compliant. So small and midsize medical offices that aren't in a position for Enterprise licensing to be feasible have to avoid 10 like the plague.
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Or switch to Macs. :p
 
DPI said:
Disagree. It's climbing but also slowing, gaining less ground every day. That's not full steam ahead. At current rate of uptake deceleration, it'll take 7-10 years for 10 to catch up to 7.
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10 has been out 3 months and already has 8% market share. It had a historic spike in the first month and the last two months have been within margin of error at 1.4% and 1.3%. It should reach easily 10% by years end. Whatever people want to make of the privacy issue I don't think it resonates with consumers in a world with a billion Facebook users and billions of smartphones as much as a the typical Microsoft critic might like to think.

As for business adoption, we're going forward with it for deployments stating mid to late next year from what I heard about a week ago. As a big bank, if it doesn't present privacy issues for us then it's unlikely to present those issues for anyone else. Of course we have a huge Windows enterprise infrastructure and will be able to disable all telemetry. Really, all of this hoopla is over one setting in telemetry, that's it. Everything else can be disabled for all editions within the UI.
 
Franko said:
Can anyone provide sources showing Windows10 is not HIPAA compliant?
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People throw around the term HIPAA compliant regarding Windows. There is no HIPAA certification for operating systems of which I'm aware. Out of the box though, there's probably nothing that's HIPAA compliant because it also involves processes and audit controls. Unless the basic telemetry is actually transmitting medical records data, I wouldn't see how that would violate HIPAA data transmission policy.
 
heatlesssun said:
People throw around the term HIPAA compliant regarding Windows. There is no HIPAA certification for operating systems of which I'm aware. Out of the box though, there's probably nothing that's HIPAA compliant because it also involves processes and audit controls. Unless the basic telemetry is actually transmitting medical records data, I wouldn't see how that would violate HIPAA data transmission policy.
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How is logging everything you type not include medical data on a PC being used in a medical setting?

There's a difference between ensuring an OS is HIPAA compliant through "don't do something stupid" and an operating system that right out of the box obviously violates it at every turn.
 
Monkey God said:
How is logging everything you type not include medical data on a PC being used in a medical setting?
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So every keystroke on every Windows 10 machine is sent to Microsoft? Sure. The handwriting and word prediction that does sample that input can be disabled.
 
Monkey God said:
How is logging everything you type not include medical data on a PC being used in a medical setting?

There's a difference between ensuring an OS is HIPAA compliant through "don't do something stupid" and an operating system that right out of the box obviously violates it at every turn.
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Uh, from the privacy policy (emphasis mine):

Microsoft collects and uses data about your speech, inking (handwriting), and typing on Windows devices to help improve and personalize our ability to correctly recognize your input.

For example, to provide personalized speech recognition, we collect your voice input, as well your name and nickname, your recent calendar events and the names of the people in your appointments, and information about your contacts including names and nicknames. This additional data enables us to better recognize people and events when you dictate messages or documents.

Additionally, your typed and handwritten words are collected to provide you a personalized user dictionary, help you type and write on your device with better character recognition, and provide you with text suggestions as you type or write. Typing data includes a sample of characters and words you type, which we scrub to remove IDs, IP addresses, and other potential identifiers. It also includes associated performance data, such as changes you manually make to text as well as words you've added to the dictionary.

You can turn off Input Personalization at any time. This will stop the data collection for this feature and will delete associated data stored on your device, such as your local user dictionary and your input history. As Cortana uses this data to help understand your input, turning off Input Personalization will also disable Cortana on your device. At https://www.bing.com/account/personalization, you can also sign in with your personal Microsoft account and clear data sent to Microsoft, such as your contacts and calendar data, user dictionary, as well as search and browsing history if your device also had Cortana enabled.
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Even the data collected is anonymized and we do run validation to make sure this stuff is appropriately handled. In fact, not doing so could be really bad for us (EU, FTC, etc).

Hopefully there will be more I can talk about in that space in the upcoming year beyond what our privacy policy actually states, as I've been working on some very cool stuff in this space. With that, back to it :).
 
heatlesssun said:
10 has been out 3 months and already has 8% market share. It had a historic spike in the first month and the last two months have been within margin of error at 1.4% and 1.3%. It should reach easily 10% by years end. Whatever people want to make of the privacy issue I don't think it resonates with consumers in a world with a billion Facebook users and billions of smartphones as much as a the typical Microsoft critic might like to think.
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Why do I get the feeling that if uptake was accelerating at the same rate it is now decelerating, you wouldn't be bringing up "the margin of error"? :) You can downplay the privacy issues all you want, just like you downplayed Metro and the Start Screen being "just fine" and "people will just adapt" but I think you're wrong here - and its a PR headache Microsoft could've avoided.

heatlesssun said:
As for business adoption, we're going forward with it for deployments stating mid to late next year from what I heard about a week ago. As a big bank, if it doesn't present privacy issues for us then it's unlikely to present those issues for anyone else. Of course we have a huge Windows enterprise infrastructure and will be able to disable all telemetry. Really, all of this hoopla is over one setting in telemetry, that's it. Everything else can be disabled for all editions within the UI.
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Except if it really is just all over just one measly setting (it isn't), then wouldn't it be so simple for Microsoft to give those that want to opt out the choice, saving themselves lots of PR headache?

The hoopla isn't actually over one single setting. The hoopla is a PR perception problem that Microsoft has created needlessly once again. Why couldn't they have been happy gathering usage data from all the hundreds of millions of users that never change defaults, plus all the Insiders? No, they had to get greedy, and now its going to cost them. And once they relent (which they'll have to), right on cue you'll move the goalposts and say "this was a good move". :)
 
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Tawnos said:
Hopefully there will be more I can talk about in that space in the upcoming year beyond what our privacy policy actually states, as I've been working on some very cool stuff in this space. With that, back to it :).
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Who are you?
 
Windows 10, Satan's OS... The sad part is that they are back porting some of this crap into Win 7/8.x...

I use my tablet with Win 10 but it rarely connects to the internet...
 
lol the Devil's OS.
It's funny cause it seems kind of true.

That OS is evil I tells ya, eeviiil!

Meanwhile some new features being added to windows 7 and 8.
devil.jpg
 
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DPI said:
Thanks for the link, looks like a good tool. What's sad is tools like this shouldn't even have to exist, customers should be given a choice to turn all this crap off in the first place.
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Agreed - this is ridiculous.
 
x509 said:
Who are you?
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Tawnos. Artificer from the plane of Dominaria, former apprentice to Urza, master artificer in my own right.

Oh, you mean me-me, not online-me? I'm a developer at Microsoft who focuses primarily on privacy (though end up spending a fair bit of time on security as well). My broader team was formerly called TwC (trustworthy computing), then we got merged into cloud and enterprise security.
 
Monkey God said:
How is logging everything you type not include medical data on a PC being used in a medical setting?

There's a difference between ensuring an OS is HIPAA compliant through "don't do something stupid" and an operating system that right out of the box obviously violates it at every turn.
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In regards to this, I'm sure the military won't be upgrading any time soon.
 
[U]ber|Noob;1041954345 said:
lol the Devil's OS.
It's funny cause it seems kind of true.

That OS is evil I tells ya, eeviiil!

Meanwhile some new features being added to windows 7 and 8.
devil.jpg
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images
 
heatlesssun said:
People throw around the term HIPAA compliant regarding Windows. There is no HIPAA certification for operating systems of which I'm aware. Out of the box though, there's probably nothing that's HIPAA compliant because it also involves processes and audit controls. Unless the basic telemetry is actually transmitting medical records data, I wouldn't see how that would violate HIPAA data transmission policy.
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The point is, if it is sending anything with PII (Personal Identifying Information) Microsoft is not liable, you, the owner of the computer, are...

Which makes you wonder what they are doing. In some cases, the mere pulling of your contact list from your email (Cortana does this) which has your client's info in it, is a violation of HIPAA as it is sharing Identifying Information, without the direct consent of the people on the contact list, which you are not supposed to.
If it "reads" any sent, or received email, you can be in violation. PII can be as little as a person's name... Or address, or email, or phone number.
It is tracking you and gathering information to be shared with 3rd party Advertising. That info could be PII related...
The EULA also states Microsoft will share any info gathered with any Law Enforcement Agency, upon their request. If it is only "this program crashed the system," type info, then why is that part of the EULA there? It sure points to data being retrieved, and saved someplace, where it can then be shared. So, who then, has access?
Yes, there are a bunch of things you have to do to be HIPAA compliant. Pretty hard to do so, if they are not specific in what they are doing with your data.
 
Thanks to Tawnos for chiming in. Hopefully you can share more information on the privacy front with us sometime soon. My interest in the subject is work related (HIPAA) as well as personal (I'm old enough to still believe in privacy and none of this new fangled sharing with everybody crap).

edited for clarity
 
HvyMtl said:
The point is, if it is sending anything with PII (Personal Identifying Information) Microsoft is not liable, you, the owner of the computer, are...
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What is the case law behind using a non-HIPAA operating system?
 
heatlesssun said:
What is the case law behind using a non-HIPAA operating system?
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How about when a few state Attorney Generals sue a large hospital chain over this issue? Which CIO wants to rely on case law to cover his/her posterior?
 
x509 said:
How about when a few state Attorney Generals sue a large hospital chain over this issue?
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If that ever happened do you really think Microsoft, a 500 billion USD corporation wouldn't be the main target? For instance, the states didn't go after the stores but the tobacco companies over cigarettes. If this every became a legal issue, rest assured that Microsoft would be front and center. And perhaps even Apple and Google. I hear all of the time that iOS devices are used in medicine. What's the privacy situation with them?

Indeed, we here every day about the irrelevance of Windows and PCs but somehow the frontline of privacy is all about Windows? Microsoft has long be considered well left behind in the mobile space, a area where data leverage is key.

Some are saying that this is a PR disaster for Microsoft. But somehow there's billions of other things out there doing the same thing, even in hospitals. Who is asking about iOS HIPAA compliance? This issue goes much further than anti-Microsoft are thinking about. Because they are only attacking Microsoft. "My PC isn't a phone." defense doesn't work when phones are used in hospitals.
 
The issue is that people tend to store far more sensitive and valuable data on their PC than their phone or tablet and a desktop operating system should be just that, an operating system, no more, no less and should defiantly be as unobtrusive as possible.

When it came to phone and tablet operating systems we never really had much of a choice as far as privacy was concerned. Of course in the realm of desktop operating systems privacy was expected and in many cases paramount, lately Microsoft has been going by the way of Apple and Google in relation to privacy and data transfer. Sadly for Microsoft, due to the reasons mentioned above, this is going to be an uphill battle, not to mention a disappointing one if they succeed.
 
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