Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Automatic Spying Cannot Be Stopped

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Executioner

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Speaking to PC World, Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore explained that Windows 10 is constantly tracking how it operates and how you are using it and sending that information back to Microsoft by default. More importantly he also confirmed that, despite offering some options to turn elements of tracking off, core data collection simply cannot be stopped:

“In the cases where we’ve not provided options, we feel that those things have to do with the health of the system,” he said. “In the case of knowing that our system that we’ve created is crashing, or is having serious performance problems, we view that as so helpful to the ecosystem and so not an issue of personal privacy, that today we collect that data so that we make that experience better for everyone.”

Still, whether or not you agree with Belfiore’s standpoint that this doesn’t invade user privacy, it does seem strange that it has taken Microsoft so long to come clean and admit core Windows 10 background data collection processes cannot be stopped. Instead it gave the impression that turning off all user accessible spying options in Windows 10 settings would provide owners with full privacy – that’s tantamount to spying.

To his credit, Belfiore does recognise the controversial nature of this decision and stresses that:

“We’re going to continue to listen to what the broad public says about these decisions, and ultimately our goal is to balance the right thing happening for the most people – really, for everyone – with complexity that comes with putting in a whole lot of control.”

Interestingly Belfiore himself won’t be around to oversee this as he is about to take a year long sabbatical. When he comes back, however, I suspect this issue will still be raging as Windows and Devices Group head Terry Myerson recently confirmed Windows 10 Enterprise users will be able to disable every single aspect of Microsoft data collection.

This comes in combination with Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise users’ ability to permanently disable automatic updates which are forced upon consumers and shows the growing divide between how Microsoft is treating consumers versus corporations.

So how concerned should users be about Windows 10’s default data collection policies? I would say very.

By default Windows 10 Home is allowed to control your bandwidth usage, install any software it wants whenever it wants (without providing detailed information on what these updates do), display ads in the Start Menu (currently it has been limited to app advertisements), send your hardware details and any changes you make to Microsoft and even log your browser history and keystrokes which the Windows End User Licence Agreement (EULA) states you allow Microsoft to use for analysis.

The good news: even if Belfiore states you cannot switch off everything, editing your privacy settings will disable the worst of these. To find them open the Start menu > Settings > Privacy.

The bad news: despite Belfiore’s pledge “to continue to listen”, Microsoft’s actions (including the impending Windows 7 and Windows 8 upgrade pressure) suggests the company’s recent love for Big Brother tactics is only going to get worse before it gets better…
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonk...cking/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix
 
As has been noted multiple times in the past - basically since Windows first came to market in the early 1980s: it's their product, it's not "yours" meaning the end user, so if they want to do these things with it meaning their product then it's not for the end user to say anything about, realistically.

There is and always has been a solution: if you don't agree with what they're doing, don't use their product.

I just can't help but laugh at those folks who have made the conscious decision to use Windows 10 even when all these revelations about how it works are so prevalent nowadays or even better: they use it, then use some tool or some instructions posted on some website that claim to be able to disable/dismantle/disallow the privacy tracking and telemetry information gathering that's going to happen whether the end user likes it or not.

I know that not everyone keeps on top of every news tidbit related to Windows 10 but even so, and even in spite of Microsoft pushing dare say shoving it down end user's throats with the notifications, the automated installations, and the free upgrade offer, people really should pay a little more attention to things with respect to the operating system they choose to use on their computers.

You can and do own the hardware, but not the operating system so, caveat emptor, folks.
 
If you fart these days, someone's tracking it. We need to push for legislation on these things.
 
Creating more useless legislation - 'cause current ones suck and don't work - isn't a solution. Laws are not the solution for every little problem (or big one) that comes along.
 
As has been noted multiple times in the past - basically since Windows first came to market in the early 1980s: it's their product, it's not "yours" meaning the end user, so if they want to do these things with it meaning their product then it's not for the end user to say anything about, realistically.
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This has been the case for quite some time now in relation to literally all digital media. Whether it be an operating system, a DVD, a Bluray movie, the firmware on a PS3 that needs to be modified in order to prevent people cracking it - A process that removes functionality that was present on the original device and may very well have been a reason someone purchased the device in the first place.

Basically you buy the hardware, but not the software.

Of course, the recent issues surrounding Volkswagen may change the way closed source code works.

I'd mention alternatives that work on differing principles, but what's the point.
 
Tiberian said:
Creating more useless legislation - 'cause current ones suck and don't work - isn't a solution. Laws are not the solution for every little problem (or big one) that comes along.
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I believe it's the best solution. It provides recourse for addressing grievances and promotes businesses to ensure they're following guidelines for adequate end-user privacy. If anything needs legislation, it's something as major as end-user privacy and security, which is something the software industry practically openly mocks. The only thing that will bring them in line is legislation which provides end-users with a lot of latitude to bring class action suits against software vendors that abuse their privilege.
 
Is the complete disabling of data collection in Win 10 Enterprise already implemented or is that on the way? I have not found the option.
 
Tiberian said:
As has been noted multiple times in the past - basically since Windows first came to market in the early 1980s: it's their product, it's not "yours" meaning the end user, so if they want to do these things with it meaning their product then it's not for the end user to say anything about, realistically.

There is and always has been a solution: if you don't agree with what they're doing, don't use their product.
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Well put! Thank you.
 
Clicked, the link, saw who the author was, laughed out loud and closed that page. That dude has shown his ignorance and lack of objectivity in the past, nothing has changed.
 
ManofGod said:
Clicked, the link, saw who the author was, laughed out loud and closed that page. That dude has shown his ignorance and lack of objectivity in the past, nothing has changed.
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What about the comments directly from Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore?
 
Scoobydo said:
I'm guessing that the NSA is pushing for MS to track everything. Good luck with legislation.
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The NSA doesn't need help tracking anything or anyone - they're tapped into the backbones of the Internet where basically everything in terms of data flows across. They have access to more raw data than Google, Microsoft, Apple, and every other company (and most entire countries) combined.

Snowden's 'revelations' about this kind of stuff were 2.5 years ago now, haven't people been keeping up with the news? I mean, I know most folks think it's still BS but, it really isn't.
 
Tiberian said:
The NSA doesn't need help tracking anything or anyone - they're tapped into the backbones of the Internet where basically everything in terms of data flows across. They have access to more raw data than Google, Microsoft, Apple, and every other company (and most entire countries) combined.

Snowden's 'revelations' about this kind of stuff were 2.5 years ago now, haven't people been keeping up with the news? I mean, I know most folks think it's still BS but, it really isn't.
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The NSA monitoring the internet has nothing to do with Microsoft taking data from your OS without your permission and storing it - where they and the NSA can now get it easily.
 
chenw said:
Is the complete disabling of data collection in Win 10 Enterprise already implemented or is that on the way? I have not found the option.
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You can use GP to change telemetry to 0 which supposedly disables it (only in Enterprise, even though you can do the same in the other versions of 10 with GP); however, given MS's track record on saying one thing and being flat out BS liars on it (especially lately regarding 10), I have a hard time believing it actually works.
 
My problem with the privacy settings that I just noticed is the large patches (service pack like, Threshold 2, etc) reset the privacy settings to full on.

So if my PC receives an automatic update in the night and I don't realize it, my privacy settings go to full telemetry mode. How is that a consumer friendly idea?
 
Specifically MS has noted that the user can't disable error reporting for things like software crashes. This doesn't mean that MS is spying on everyone all the time. People are making the jump from small things that can't be disabled to "OMG THEY ARE SPYING AND IT CAN'T BE TURNED OFF"
 
Ocellaris said:
Specifically MS has noted that the user can't disable error reporting for things like software crashes. This doesn't mean that MS is spying on everyone all the time. People are making the jump from small things that can't be disabled to "OMG THEY ARE SPYING AND IT CAN'T BE TURNED OFF"
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First, the quote specifies crashes and performance metrics.

Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore said:
“In the cases where we’ve not provided options, we feel that those things have to do with the health of the system,” he said. “In the case of knowing that our system that we’ve created is crashing, or is having serious performance problems, we view that as so helpful to the ecosystem and so not an issue of personal privacy, that today we collect that data so that we make that experience better for everyone.”
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This quote states there are multiple cases where choice isn't given, one of which is performance and crash reporting. Beyond that, it isn't specifically performance and crash data that is sent, but things "we feel... have to do with the health of the system."

Also, "Windows and Devices Group head Terry Myerson recently confirmed Windows 10 Enterprise users will be able to disable every single aspect of Microsoft data collection." So by definition, they are not collecting data from "everyone."

I've made this point elsewhere. Even if we trust Microsoft with the facilities and capabilities for wide ranging data gathering (we don't), do we trust governments not to legally require Microsoft to turn on "Send Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future", provide them with the data, and maintain secrecy of the program for national security?. Do we trust that someone can't come up with a zero-day, use this capability, and direct it to their server instead of Microsoft? A subset of spyware are certain keyloggers, and, be it spyware or not, there is a keylogger built in to Windows 10.
 
At least MS is finally admitting it instead of giving evasive answers when asked.
 
It took them a while to find the words to spin it a bit better.
 
Monkey God said:
The NSA monitoring the internet has nothing to do with Microsoft taking data from your OS without your permission and storing it - where they and the NSA can now get it easily.
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I don't think you're grasping the concept of the NSA having near total access to everything from everyone and not just content being taken by or shared with just one specific company like Microsoft. Besides, the NSA's data center in Utah isn't as large as it is and it doesn't have the capacity it has (last estimate that I saw was something like 23 Zettabytes or 23 trillion Gigabytes for those not up on the numerical conventions - and the capacity is always expanding).

They ain't using all that just for storing some emails or some pics, they're storing everything from everywhere and yes it can easily be done. Look at what Archive.org does and has been doing for the past 15+ years - same principle but at least they honor a robots.txt file if a particular site has one.

This is all moot anyway, but at least I know if the HardForum were to tank and die tomorrow this post will live forever in storage with the NSA. :D
 
ccman said:
Also, "Windows and Devices Group head Terry Myerson recently confirmed Windows 10 Enterprise users will be able to disable every single aspect of Microsoft data collection." So by definition, they are not collecting data from "everyone."
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Microsoft planning to give Enterprise users an actual, working option to disable datamining also tells us that Microsoft knows better. They won't mess with their golden goose, they know Enterprise isn't going to buy their bullshit "We can't disclose what we're datamining, but trust us".

But it begs the question, why not let users of the Pro version disable data collection 100% too? Can MS not be satisfied datamining all the millions of clueless end users that don't change the default settings? They're shooting themselves in the foot once again, just like the whole OneDrive debacle unfolding now. They'd rather have more brand damage and bad Windows 10 word of mouth than chill out and give people a real, non-placebo opt out.

What's sad is I think they will pull their heads out eventually, but like they waited way too long to ease up the heavy-handedness on Windows 8, they'll do it after the mindshare damage to Windows 10 is already done. The die of mistrust is being cast now. And based on how uptake is decelerating linearly every month since launch despite the aggressive GWX trojan nagware, the irreversible damage is already happening.
 
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Ocellaris said:
Specifically MS has noted that the user can't disable error reporting for things like software crashes. This doesn't mean that MS is spying on everyone all the time. People are making the jump from small things that can't be disabled to "OMG THEY ARE SPYING AND IT CAN'T BE TURNED OFF"
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At this point there's little being added to the conversation based in much fact. I seriously doubt that Microsoft is just lying about how this works and are just uploading everything they can and that the nearly two dozen privacy settings don't do anything.

If all of the critics are right then something really, really bad is going to happen sometime. I'm guessing it will be like Armageddon predicted every year. Which should make people wonder about those predictions.
 
heatlesssun said:
At this point there's little being added to the conversation based in much fact. I seriously doubt that Microsoft is just lying about how this works and are just uploading everything they can and that the nearly two dozen privacy settings don't do anything.
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Because a quote by Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore isn't fact or shouldn't be taken as such. No one is saying Joe Belfiore is lying that I'm aware of.
 
ccman said:
Because a quote by Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore isn't fact or shouldn't be taken as such. No one is saying Joe Belfiore is lying that I'm aware of.
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He says that everything will be over dramatized (as did Gabe Aul). It is really simple stuff, but it gets blown out of proportion. We said it would help immensely if they shared exactly what was being sent and why but they cannot give that information (we were shown some reporting tools, but they did cherry pick what to show us). It's one of those business tools that is used behind closed doors, covered by NDA, etc..

It's a LOT of data, but it is anonymous (which they say is good for consumer, but bad for them as they cannot contact users to get help in fixing issues).

For me, I'd say it's a bit much. A lot of data, and while I'm sure it's all valuable, it's still feels intrusive.
 
chenw said:
Is the complete disabling of data collection in Win 10 Enterprise already implemented or is that on the way? I have not found the option.
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:joeisuzu:

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ccman said:
Also, "Windows and Devices Group head Terry Myerson recently confirmed Windows 10 Enterprise users will be able to disable every single aspect of Microsoft data collection." So by definition, they are not collecting data from "everyone."
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If I go by that quoted statement alone then yes, they are collecting data from everyone because it clearly states every single aspect of Microsoft collection can be disabled - if you read that as it's stated that means the data collection is enabled by default even on Windows 10 Enterprise.

So, yeah, everyone.
 
Tiberian said:
As has been noted multiple times in the past - basically since Windows first came to market in the early 1980s: it's their product, it's not "yours" meaning the end user, so if they want to do these things with it meaning their product then it's not for the end user to say anything about, realistically.

There is and always has been a solution: if you don't agree with what they're doing, don't use their product.
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This is what I've been preaching about here. I like Windows as a glorified Xbox and I use it for that but only for that.

Use the free alternatives if you value yourself. Facebook users can continue to use Windows for all I care :D
 
"By default Windows 10 Home is allowed to control your bandwidth usage, install any software it wants whenever it wants (without providing detailed information on what these updates do), display ads in the Start Menu (currently it has been limited to app advertisements), send your hardware details and any changes you make to Microsoft and even log your browser history and keystrokes which the Windows End User Licence Agreement (EULA) states you allow Microsoft to use for analysis"

good Lord, it's even worse then I thought!
 
Windows as my gaming box, Linux for everything else including an increasing amount of gaming. At the end of the day it's each to their own, but IMHO it beats any form of virus/malware/spyware available for Windows and vastly limits Microsoft's spying on everything I do.

As far as MS is concerned, I just play Battlefield 4 all day!
 
I just want to know WHAT they are tracking/uploading. I have to, BY LAW, make sure my PC is as "secure" as possible due to PII (Personal Identifying Information) on my PC. I sell insurance, and have killed the GWX, and telemetry in Win 7, due to privacy concerns (and my own liability, under the law.)

So, why are they not telling us, specifically, what is taken and reported? Yeah, we can do an educated guess, by what they are not telling us, telling us. But, really, what is it, and why don't they tell us, so they do not have the privacy / Big Brother is watching us backlash?
 
HvyMtl said:
I just want to know WHAT they are tracking/uploading. I have to, BY LAW, make sure my PC is as "secure" as possible due to PII (Personal Identifying Information) on my PC. I sell insurance, and have killed the GWX, and telemetry in Win 7, due to privacy concerns (and my own liability, under the law.)

So, why are they not telling us, specifically, what is taken and reported? Yeah, we can do an educated guess, by what they are not telling us, telling us. But, really, what is it, and why don't they tell us, so they do not have the privacy / Big Brother is watching us backlash?
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Right? If they seek widespread adoption, pissing off security companies and banking institutions is clearly not the way to go. I wonder if there are any regulations forbidding the use of Windows 10 but then that would include smart phones...
 
HvyMtl said:
So, why are they not telling us, specifically, what is taken and reported? Yeah, we can do an educated guess, by what they are not telling us, telling us. But, really, what is it, and why don't they tell us, so they do not have the privacy / Big Brother is watching us backlash?
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Ars did a decent analysis of what MS is collecting (tile updates, whether or not any are enabled, various telemetry and system health), but couldn't totally make sense of what MS was collecting in a couple of cases:

ars said:
Other traffic looks a little more troublesome. Windows 10 will periodically send data to a Microsoft server named ssw.live.com. This server seems to be used for OneDrive and some other Microsoft services. Windows 10 seems to transmit information to the server even when OneDrive is disabled and logins are using a local account that isn't connected to a Microsoft Account. The exact nature of the information being sent isn't clear—it appears to be referencing telemetry settings—and again, it's not clear why any data is being sent at all. We disabled telemetry on our test machine using group policies.
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Microsoft still hasn't explained what it's collecting or why it does in that case (the last sentence seems to assume that telemetry could be disabled, which it can't). Also:

ars said:
And finally, some traffic seems quite impenetrable. We configured our test virtual machine to use an HTTP and HTTPS proxy (both as a user-level proxy and a system-wide proxy) so that we could more easily monitor its traffic, but Windows 10 seems to make requests to a content delivery network that bypass the proxy.
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The net effect is a constant check in on microsoft servers, some with identification tokens which survive between reboots. How much data MS constantly sends to its servers, and other data it aggregates is unconscionable. MS continues to be completely opaque about this data collection and merely mentions the easy to justify portions (telemetry and crash reports), while completely ignoring questions about the much more worrying other data collected.
 
PliotronX said:
Right? If they seek widespread adoption, pissing off security companies and banking institutions is clearly not the way to go. I wonder if there are any regulations forbidding the use of Windows 10 but then that would include smart phones...
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Not to mention Windows 10 is not HIPAA compliant. So small and midsize medical offices that aren't in a position for Enterprise licensing to be feasible have to avoid 10 like the plague.
 
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