Mass Effect 3 SPOILERS THREAD

[soulsavior]

I've been reading up on the dream/indoctrination theories and they're pretty interesting. On my first play through, I actually thought I was dreaming during the whole citadel sequence. Too many things didn't make sense and I kept waiting for something to happen and have me wake up with Garrus dragging me to my feet.

I find the most compelling piece of evidence to be the fact that the star child suggests you'll die in all choices, even the destroy option ("You can destroy all synthetic life if you want....even you are part synthetic") yet you only survive in the destroy option. Moreover, it appears that getting the survival ending takes more EMS than any other ending. You'd think the "best" ending would require the most resources, so I find it interesting the destroy ending is effectively labeled as the best.

Of course, there are also numerous issues with the ending that make me think, "it's a nice theory, but why would they do this, this and this?" I'm starting to believe the real answer is that they started with the intention to make some part of the final sequence a dream and simply ran out of time or resources to finish it the way they had hoped and had to scrape something together to get it shipped. It's frankly the only answer I can come up with to explain such an incoherent ending being created by a team that's otherwise delivered pure gold.

 

[MaZa]

Ok that's almost enough reason for me to import my renegade playthrough. Human baby reaper brain........

Nah, screw it.

Anyone else read this article that asks several game developers what they think of the whole "redo the endings" thing?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/mass-effect-3-ending-what-do-game-writers-think/

Interesting arfticle. Quite differing opinions between them. Some are fine with it, some are not. But I have to ask, how many of them know WHY people are angry with it and want it changed? Its not because they disagree with any "artistic POV" it may have, which they seem to think its all about, but because they see it as plothole ridden mess.

 

[soulsavior]

Yeah, it's irritating when people seem to think we're mad because we didn't agree with the ending or wanted a happy ending. In reality, we're mad because the current endings make no sense, are full of plot holes, don't incorporate any of your major decisions, and (most importantly to me) force me into a course of action that isn't fitting at all for what Shepard stands for. I spent the entire game enjoying the diversity of the races and wanted to see them unite. And when I finally achieve that, the game forces me to either destroy the geth, homogenize the galaxy, or basically enslave the reapers. None of those options sound like anything my Shepard would want to do.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

In a game as complex as any Mass Effect game is, I find it nearly impossible to go through them without forgetting one quest, one item, or screwing up the outcome of a mission slightly. Even trying to make similar choices, at times the dialog comes out somewhat different. No doubt in response to something I've done before. That's part of what I like about these games. They have rich replay value based on your choices.

Something as simple as not seeing Thane in the hospital before curing the Genophage has massive results. He won't be there to stop Kai-Leng from assasinating the Salarian Council member during Udina's coup attempt. And as a result of slightly different choices on my part, I had two very different renegade experiences in diffusing the situation with Ashley. In one I was able to get her to stand down immediately and point her gun at Udina. In the other there was back and fourth, and Udina of course had "proof" that Shepard killed the council member and not someone else. That resulted in me almost not being able to get Ashley to join the team on the Normandy. I had to actually use a paragon conversation option to get her to do it. And the dialog where she meets Shepard at the airlock was entirely different. Not just a little different as is sometimes the case, but drastically different. The relationship with Ashley was very much strained at that time. This is despite the conversation options early in the game being identical and having romanced her in ME1.

In one run through Ashley was killed. Garrus took the shot and it disturbed Liara greatly as well which isn't what I expected given that relations between the two have never been all that great in Mass Effect 1. Not because Liara does anything other than having a thing for the Commander and being an alien. The conversation with Garrus was fairly depressing. He was applogetic about having to do it, and he was the one who put her name on the memorial. Liara on the other hand talks a great deal about Ashley and how she saw her.

It was actually interesting, and she revelaed something about the assasin I hadn't caught before without going through Ashley's death. He too is a former Alliance Soldier who also held the N7 designation. She draws parallels between the assasin and Shepard. It was really quite interesting, but that particular scenario is one example of choice and consequences that exemplifies the Mass Effect series as a whole and it's characters.

Unfortunately, the ending dropped the ball on this important theme.

Knowing that I could see a whole new set of divergent decisions makes it a whole lot easier for me to make the decision to play through a 2nd time.

 

[J W]

Ok that's almost enough reason for me to import my renegade playthrough. Human baby reaper brain........

Nah, screw it.

Anyone else read this article that asks several game developers what they think of the whole "redo the endings" thing?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/mass-effect-3-ending-what-do-game-writers-think/

I agree with a couple of those.

I also agree with MaZa that the "artistic POV" thing is overplayed. This has nothing to do with art and my eyes frankly have this tendency to roll when I read that.

This has everything to do with BioWare finishing its product. Heck, we'll even call it "art" for a second. Mass Effect 3 in its current form is like a portrait of a person without a chin. When asked why he didn't paint a chin the painter responds, "I wanted the viewer to use his imagination." 99% of people would think the painter a charlatan.

 

[Elios]

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10552057
WOW gg Bioware this makes me thing that post by the other writer is more legit now
lolz talk about phoning it in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm82gjZDIDU

this feels more and more like the lead writer went off on his own couldnt come up with any thing good so just cobbled a bunch of pretentious shit together and is now hiding behind "its art" when it was really just desperation/laziness
i really hope they fire him for this

 

[J W]

I can't imagine that picture is real. Also, and I say this only from my personal perspective, that music is awful.

 

[MaZa]

IIRC that picture is doctored. Still though, I was never a fan of Wintersun and couldnt understand why they are so hyped in metal scene. They arent bad but I have heard better melodeath that them. But in any case, the picture is still funny.

 

[Q-BZ]

Knowing that I could see a whole new set of divergent decisions makes it a whole lot easier for me to make the decision to play through a 2nd time.

I don't have the heart to do it because I know all it's going to do is take me back to that ending sequence that you can't even manually save in.

I just don't want to see that again. Once was enough for me. Quite dispiriting. It took the wind out of my sails on an otherwise fantastic game and a series that I've been very happy with overall.

 

[soulsavior]

I don't have the heart to do it because I know all it's going to do is take me back to that ending sequence that you can't even manually save in.

I just don't want to see that again. Once was enough for me. Quite dispiriting. It took the wind out of my sails on an otherwise fantastic game and a series that I've been very happy with overall.

The best way to improve the ending is to alt-f4 out of it after Anderson tells you that you did good.

 

[ballpoint]

^ Why do so many games these days have scenes that you not only can't skip, but you can't fucking ESC to a menu? It's completely obnoxious. I reloaded the ME3 end scene a couple times to check things out (like double-check that there were trees and bushes around the beam only after harbinger shoots... yes, there are... after checking that detail and also noticing that the entire landscape around the beam uses a pile of human corpses for the texture, it's a dream or mental projection. Whatever it is, the ending is not real. But I digress). BFBC2 might be the first time I encountered a game that decided to not let me control my computer, but since then it's everywhere.. almost every game takes away the option to do any input at all whenever it pleases... you can't even pause the f***ing things, is the craziest part. Anyhow this rant probably belongs somewhere else.

 

[Q-BZ]

The best way to improve the ending is to alt-f4 out of it after Anderson tells you that you did good.

LOL, good call.

 

[J W]

Been trying to play through the final mission again in order to look for more signs of "IT," but I find it a tad bit tedious. It also sucks that I apparently made no saves during the final mission on my initial run, so I'm basically forced to rely on the autosave.

Anyone else hate the part where you have to hold down the area before a new shuttle picks you up? They just swamp enemies on you and you have virtually no space to operate.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

Been trying to play through the final mission again in order to look for more signs of "IT," but I find it a tad bit tedious. It also sucks that I apparently made no saves during the final mission on my initial run, so I'm basically forced to rely on the autosave.

Anyone else hate the part where you have to hold down the area before a new shuttle picks you up? They just swamp enemies on you and you have virtually no space to operate.

It was just as bad defending the damn missiles, too. Throwing waves of enemies is not a remedy to crappy writing.

 

[J W]

It was just as bad defending the damn missiles, too. Throwing waves of enemies is not a remedy to crappy writing.

Yep, that was the part of the game that needed a boss. Should have fought a Reaper or something in that spot. I basically ran around from building to building trying to keep my distance from those damn banshees.

 

[ballpoint]

^ Overload is your friend with the banshees. Overload, then a few rounds from the spike thrower shotgun, then Warp + Incinerate will usually leave her dead after one more shotgun blast. If all goes smoothly I can take down a banshee in about ten seconds that way.

 

[ValeTudo]

WOW gg Bioware this makes me thing that post by the other writer is more legit now lolz talk about phoning it in

this feels more and more like the lead writer went off on his own couldnt come up with any thing good so just cobbled a bunch of pretentious shit together and is now hiding behind "its art" when it was really just desperation/laziness
i really hope they fire him for this

That song is terribad... speed metal meets ELO, lol.

If that twit (misspell intentional) is true than someone needs to punch Casey not only for the bad ending but more so for the bad choice in music.

All kidding aside, what a total piece of crap that guy is as a producer... something went to hell last fall/winter. Probably rushed by the deadline because the rest of the game is very well done for what it is.

The ends did not justify the means here... casey hudson should never work again in the industry.

 

[Maplehamwich]

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10552057

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm82gjZDIDU

Regardless of whether or not the Tweet is real, the fact that the "Grandfather" scenery is essentially lifted straight from this Wintersun "video" is horrific to me. At first I didn't understand all the commotion around the ending, but as more and more is revealed about it (original ME story line with Dark Energy etc) I've come to realise just how poor this game's writing really was. How much of a let down it is compared to what it could have been.

 

[spacing guild]

Um...I just finished this game (on insanity) and...
what the fuck are you morons complaining about?

how would you have it end?

this was like one of the best games i've ever played.

 

[KatalDT]

Um...I just finished this game (on insanity) and...
what the fuck are you morons complaining about?

how would you have it end?

this was like one of the best games ever made.

This is a great example of the level of discourse from those who find the ending acceptable.

 

[spacing guild]

This is a great example of the level of discourse from those who find the ending acceptable.

I just read some of these posts... you guys are way to anal about this shit. I had fun playing this game. I don't understand what anyone would consider a perfect ending. Choices have consequences....that's what this whole game was about. And you didn't expect the end to have consequences? You just expected all the reapers die and everyone celebrates with fireworks on Coruscant?

 

[KatalDT]

I just read some of these posts... you guys are way to anal about this shit. I had fun playing this game. I don't understand what anyone would consider a perfect ending. Choices have consequences....that's what this whole game was about. And you didn't expect the end to have consequences? You just expected all the reapers die and everyone celebrates with fireworks on Coruscant?

If that's why you think we're upset, then you didn't actually read the posts. Or maybe you just didn't understand them. It's that our decisions DIDN'T really have many consequences at all.

Here's an example:

I played with my super-Paragon, saved everybody, destroyed collector base, super friendly Femshep and did all three endings to see how they ended. (My first, and *real* choice was Synthesis) All three endings were strikingly similar, the main difference being the colors.

I then played with my half-assed Maleshep Renegade, who lost people in ME2, didn't do everybody's loyalty, saved the collector base, and didn't give a crap about anything (ie. doing almost every decision the OPPOSITE of my Femshep). I watched the three endings, again.


And there was really no differences in the endings.


So yeah, we WANTED our decisions to have consequences. THEY DIDN'T.

 

[spacing guild]

If that's why you think we're upset, then you didn't actually read the posts. Or maybe you just didn't understand them. It's that our decisions DIDN'T really have many consequences at all.




And there was really no differences in the endings.


So yeah, we WANTED our decisions to have consequences. THEY DIDN'T.

yeah I get that... i've played all three Mass Effects. Did you ever really think that the choices you made made a hill of beans difference to the end of the game? I never did.

It's neat to either kill the quarians or kill the geth...but to calculate different decisions to the deepest subtleties of their conclusions...you'd need like 1,000 alternate endings. The point is... all paths lead to one destiny. there's no story if it doesn't work that way.

There truly is... chaos.

 

[KatalDT]

yeah I get that... i've played all three Mass Effects. Did you ever really think that the choices you made made a hill of beans difference to the end of the game? I never did.

It's neat to either kill the quarians or kill the geth...but to calculate different decisions to deepest subtleties of their conclusions...you'd need like 1,000 alternate endings. The point is... all paths lead to one destiny. there's no story if it doesn't work that way.

There truly is... chaos.

Okay, so first you tell us that we need to accept the consequences for our actions and get over it, and now you tell us that the consequence at the end would happen regardless of our actions?

Pick a point and stick with it. Thanks for stopping by.

 

[spacing guild]

Okay, so first you tell us that we need to accept the consequences for our actions and get over it, and now you tell us that the consequence at the end would happen regardless of our actions?

Pick a point and stick with it. Thanks for stopping by.

You sir, fail at logic. You didn't know how would end before you had a choice to either end the genophage or deceive the krogan did you? But you knew you were dooming the krogan didn't you? You made a choice.

I chose to eat waffles for breakfast instead of pancakes, therefore waffles defeated all pancakes. That's what you're telling me.

 

[Maplehamwich]

You sir, fail at logic. You didn't know how would end before you had a choice to either end the genophage or deceive the krogan did you? But you knew you were dooming the krogan didn't you? You made a choice.

I chose to eat waffles for breakfast instead of pancakes, therefore waffles defeated all pancakes. That's what you're telling me.

This is very interesting and gives great insight into why you may not understand where we are coming from. Thanks for posting.

 

[spacing guild]

This is very interesting and gives great insight into why you may not understand where we are coming from. Thanks for posting.

Yes, i'm glad I had the opportunity to bring some sense into this senseless thread. You're welcome.

 

[Sycraft]

Yes, i'm glad I had the opportunity to bring some sense into this senseless thread. You're welcome.

You may wish to go retake PHIL 201, or whatever class teaches basic logic on your campus. Your arguments fail at logic in more than a couple ways. Now if that's what you are going for, ok, but then you probably shouldn't be claiming to bring sense to the thread.

 

[spacing guild]

You may wish to go retake PHIL 201, or whatever class teaches basic logic on your campus. Your arguments fail at logic in more than a couple ways. Now if that's what you are going for, ok, but then you probably shouldn't be claiming to bring sense to the thread.

Yes you're right. I didn't understand the logic that this is just a complaining thread. The end sucks and there is no debate. Can't argue the logic of that.

 

[J W]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. So far the only things I can figure out are maple hamwiches, pancakes, and waffles.

 

[spacing guild]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. So far the only things I can figure out are maple hamwiches, pancakes, and waffles.

Choose one...and you will have the perfect ending.

 

[Damar]

yeah I get that... i've played all three Mass Effects. Did you ever really think that the choices you made made a hill of beans difference to the end of the game? I never did.

We were told over the years by BW that our choices in all the games would matter at the end and that there would not be simply A-B-C type choices.

Thats what we got though.

Thats why we're upset.

Check out the thread on the BW forums thats over 2300 pages at this point for tons of links to examples where BW outright lied to us even right up to the release of ME3.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/1

 

[soulsavior]

It has nothing to do with happy endings and everything to do with sensible endings. The absurdity of the endings has been discussed in detail. If you're still ok with it, that's fine, but plenty of us can't enjoy an ending with that many plot holes and unexplained space magics.

 

[soulsavior]

LOL, good call.

Seriously, it's amazing how much better the ending is when you cut out the god child nonsense. There's certainly still inconsistencies and issues, but they're far more forgivable. Had they just ended it there having the Crucible just kill the Reapers and Shepard probably dying during the whole thing, it would have been so much better. They just tried to get too cute with it.

 

[Q-BZ]

Seriously, it's amazing how much better the ending is when you cut out the god child nonsense. There's certainly still inconsistencies and issues, but they're far more forgivable. Had they just ended it there having the Crucible just kill the Reapers and Shepard probably dying during the whole thing, it would have been so much better. They just tried to get too cute with it.

Less is more.

That really is a good idea and an "easy out" for Bioware if they wanted to fix this.

Make it where the "main game" ends right after Andersen says he's proud of you with a nice fade out depending on the choices you made and, of course, the DLCs would pick up after that. Something clean. Something that makes you want to see more.

In other words I'm saying Bioware should just outright patch out and get rid of the Star Child nonsense and clean up the mess from there.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

But then there's the whole problem of the Crucible being literally nothing but a plot device. As many holes as the ending has, leaving the Crucible with zero explanation except "it kills the Reapers" would be just as bad.

 

[spacing guild]

We were told over the years by BW that our choices in all the games would matter at the end and that there would not be simply A-B-C type choices.

Thats what we got though.

Thats why we're upset.

Check out the thread on the BW forums thats over 2300 pages at this point for tons of links to examples where BW outright lied to us even right up to the release of ME3.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/1

yeah they did say that... i just never put much faith in it. I let it go where it took me. Everyone wanting to import Shepards and all that I thought was a waste. You could tell they gave as much choice as they could for subplots, but never really deviated from a main plot.

 

[KickAssCop]

But then there's the whole problem of the Crucible being literally nothing but a plot device. As many holes as the ending has, leaving the Crucible with zero explanation except "it kills the Reapers" would be just as bad.

Irrespective, crucible's purpose was to kill Reapers so I don't see it as anything more than that.
The whole child nonsense is what got me as well. A child was God and he created a solution for chaos. Wtf was that crap. Other than that I think game was decent and I was generally ok with the ending apart from why the hell Joker was driving Normandy when the crew (including Liara and Ashley) were on the ground...

P.S. If ending was a dream sequence and real ending will be in DLC then if Bioware charges for that DLC, they gonna get raped.

 

[MorgothPl]

Coming back to the indoctrination theory. If everything that Shepard see in ME3 is his mind fighting indoctrination at object Rho. Then what? he wins indoctrination, wakes up and we are where ME2 ended?

Or was all the ME3 things real, but the indoctrination started when Shep reached Earth? Or maybe he was mortally wounded during the attack on Reaper near the beam to Citadel, and everything that happened after are his visions in agony? (like in Ubiq)

 

[Q-BZ]

Or maybe he was mortally wounded during the attack on Reaper near the beam to Citadel, and everything that happened after are his visions in agony? (like in Ubiq)

This is the direction I'm leaning in. The moment he's on the Citadel everything feels way off.