Linux performance still a let down on desktop.

[Snowdog]

The problem here is driver support and Nvidia make the drivers, not the developers! I can assure you that under Windows there will be games and possibly other software that the older drivers for your card will not support anymore, possibly even certain video codecs will not be supported terribly well anymore as your card is so old - It's over 10 years old! That's an eternity in computing terms!

Support for your card is long dropped, you can't blame the OS for that..

It highlights driver problems in Linux. I have up to date driver support in Windows.

Windows gets driver support sooner and keeps it longer.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's a perfectly fine solution for DTS/DD, in fact for some time it was the ONLY solution deliver DTS/DD digitally.

This is not a case of conscious decision to deprecate an older technology in LInux.

It is just a case of something that the Linux community tried, but never succeeded in getting to work well.

I'm been running optical sound through a 5.1 Logitech Z-5500 for a decade now. I'm not an audiophile so it's works great for me. I don't plan on replacing it until it dies.

 

[BulletDust]

It highlights driver problems in Linux. I have up to date driver support in Windows.

Windows gets driver support sooner and keeps it longer.

No it doesn't when driver support for your card has also been dropped under Windows - Nvidia is not releasing any advancements for the 8800 series, they haven't for ~8 years now! I can assure you, there will be issues with your card in certain scenarios under Windows also.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, your point is moot.

I'm been running optical sound through a 5.1 Logitech Z-5500 for a decade now. I'm not an audiophile so it's works great for me. I don't plan on replacing it until it dies.

And under Linux you can still use it once you perform some copy/paste command line tweaks. Once enabled 5.1 settings are all controlled via the GUI, it's not a total loss situation.

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows gets driver support sooner and keeps it longer.

This is one I don't get with some Linux folks. Windows get's driver support first because that's what the overwhelming majority of PC users are running. And the latest version of Windows is almost guaranteed to get support for the latest and greatest hardware even if older versions may not. That's how it's been forever now and that's really no different now than 10 or 15 years ago. Sure you get better Linux support now but not at the level of Windows for new stuff. It's just obvious. Why Linux folks debate this is beyond logical reason.

 

[BulletDust]

This is one I don't get with some Linux folks. Windows get's driver support first because that's what the overwhelming majority of PC users are running. And the latest version of Windows is almost guaranteed to get support for the latest and greatest hardware even if older versions may not. That's how it's been forever now and that's really no different now than 10 or 15 years ago. Sure you get better Linux support now but not at the level of Windows for new stuff. It's just obvious. Why Linux folks debate this is beyond logical reason.

Because that's simply not true.

I have DTV tuners here that don't work under Windows 10, I have an Echo Layla 24/96 sound card that doesn't work under Windows 10, I have clients with old ink jet printers that aren't supported under Windows 10.

As hardware ages and new versions of Windows are released, it's not uncommon for older hardware to stop working altogether at all!

 

[Snowdog]

I'm been running optical sound through a 5.1 Logitech Z-5500 for a decade now. I'm not an audiophile so it's works great for me. I don't plan on replacing it until it dies.

Same here. I have a nice Denon 5.1 receiver, that I have been using for 12+ years. I am not going replace a perfectly good HT-Receiver just because Linux doesn't work with SPDIF.

I plan to keep using it with my next computers, until the standard actually fades away or it dies.

 

[B00nie]

It's a perfectly fine solution for DTS/DD, in fact for some time it was the ONLY solution deliver DTS/DD digitally.

It's not really. Even on windows people have problems with it.

 

[heatlesssun]

Because that's simply not true.

I have DTV tuners here that don't work under Windows 10, I have an Echo Layla 24/96 sound card that doesn't work under Windows 10, I have clients with old ink jet printers that aren't supported under Windows 10.

As hardware ages and new versions of Windows are released, it's not uncommon for older hardware to stop working altogether at all!

For the latest and greatest hardware it's absolutely true. The product you're referring, the company doesn't even make those products anymore, there's no active development from them for any desktop OS. If there's a 3rd party driver for Linux, cool, that's not coming from the OEM though.

Just realized that this Echo uses a PCI card. That's going to be as problematic as anything with new hardware.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's not really. Even on windows people have problems with it.

Anyone can have problems with anything. I've never had any problems with this Z-5500 under Vista, 7,8.x or 10. Same with my Brother AIO color laser printer/scanner that's almost 10 years old. Sure not all older hardware is going to be trouble free with Windows, it does generally require that the manufacturer not abandon making PC products or going out of business.

 

[Snowdog]

Wait...you're saying he should not worry about tearing on an 8800GT when even using the open source driver? KDE with Kwin is nothing but OpenGL. 8800GT can easily do that. I understand if the proprietary driver won't support it anymore (as stupid as that may be) but the open source driver should be able to do it easily. Especially when right now he could fire up Windows 7 or even Windows 10 on that video card and have a fully GPU accelerated desktop environment.

Just an update. I tried running cross platform gfxbench_GL in Windows/Linux, to get some clues

Under Windows: First two test not available, but everything else ran fine.

Under Linux, it either wouldn't run because APIs not available, or API available, but not really working, core dump.

I have three options in under drivers. I tried them all, to see what would happen.

NVidia legacy Binary driver - version 304.135 - Would not run, API not available
NVidia Binary driver - version 340.102 - API Available - But core dumped so not so healthy
Nouveau Display driver. Would not run, API not available.


At least I know it is actually selecting the drivers, but they are all flawed.

 

[Snowdog]

It turns out I was right about "force composition pipeline".

While NVidia, didn't expose it in my driver GUI, this does work when issued in a terminal:

nvidia-settings --assign CurrentMetaMode="nvidia-auto-select +0+0 { ForceCompositionPipeline = On }"

Tearing gone. It still not smooth like windows but at least the tearing is cleared up.

 

[ChadD]

It turns out I was right about "force composition pipeline".

While NVidia, didn't expose it in my driver GUI, this does work when issued in a terminal:

nvidia-settings --assign CurrentMetaMode="nvidia-auto-select +0+0 { ForceCompositionPipeline = On }"

Tearing gone. It still not smooth like windows but at least the tearing is cleared up.

Ya its driver related for sure. Its funny cause in general Linux is good about older hardware drivers.... GPUs are a PITA though is the bottom line. The MFGs don't provide the best info to the open source guys. (ok Nvidia doesn't AMD has been playing nice lately). So it sounds like Nvidia isn't really doing as much work on their older GPU drivers as they should be. I am Not surprised really.... I am a bit surprised that the open source driver couldn't handle the basics though, more proof that the Nouveau driver is terrible I guess.

Although I do believe Linux is ready for prime time... when installed by OEMs dealing with current hardware (nvidia has been very good with support for new gpus) yes one of the biggest annoyances in general is GPU driver support. None of the MFGs help out the open source teams... and because they are closed source their own drivers can be buggier then they could be if they where open. I don't ever expect things to change completely, but hopefully they all start doing a better job in general supporting the open source projects so at least the basics just work.

 

[BulletDust]

It turns out I was right about "force composition pipeline".

While NVidia, didn't expose it in my driver GUI, this does work when issued in a terminal:

nvidia-settings --assign CurrentMetaMode="nvidia-auto-select +0+0 { ForceCompositionPipeline = On }"

Tearing gone. It still not smooth like windows but at least the tearing is cleared up.

I'm glad you got it sorted. I'm not too sure what distro you're currently running, but if you can install the Crompton compositor my scrolling is as smooth as silk. Having said that, now that you've got it running you may want to leave things be for a while until you're settled. You can also use Compiz which will give you all the fancy effects like wobbly windows, but Compiz largely isn't supported anymore, although I believe it's been forked and is in beta so it's very much 'use at your own risk'.

 

[BulletDust]

At least I know it is actually selecting the drivers, but they are all flawed.

Your card doesn't meet the minimum system requirements, the only issue with the drivers is that they don't render OGL 3.0 in software because....Why?

I ran the test on a GTX670, which is the oldest card I have, and it ran and completed perfectly.

Unfortunately I don't have a card from last decade.

 

[BulletDust]

It is just a case of something that the Linux community tried, but never succeeded in getting to work well.

Not really, if that was the case you wouldn't be able to enable it.

I just did it, took me about 5 mins, I recommend elevating privileges using sudo su as sudo isn't enough for some commands to complete correctly - A portion of the procedure can be done via the GUI.

Works fine on my ~10yo Pioneer VSX-LX70 receiver over TOSLINK - Having said that my receiver also has HDMI inputs, sounds like your receiver's from well beyond this decade.

 

[Monkey God]

Ive been running multiple installs of Ubuntu MATE (16 and 17) and its a fast, slick desktop. No performance issues either in a VM or on a Surface Pro 3. YMMV I suppose.

 

[Snowdog]

Your card doesn't meet the minimum system requirements, the only issue with the drivers is that they don't render OGL 3.0 in software because....Why?

My card ran the test (except Car Chase and Manhattan) fine in Windows.

So my card supports OGL 3.0 under Windows, but not OGL 4.0.

It tried to run the exact same tests under Linux when I enabled the NVidia 340 drivers indicating that NVidia is exposing the OGL 3.0 APIs with it's drivers. They are just poorly implemented under Linux and core dumps.

 

[Snowdog]

Ive been running multiple installs of Ubuntu MATE (16 and 17) and its a fast, slick desktop. No performance issues either in a VM or on a Surface Pro 3. YMMV I suppose.

Over the years I have probably installed Linux 30 or 40 times dating back to slackware in 1994. IMO it never went smoothly on the desktop compared to Windows. That includes RHEL that was installed by the IT department at work to replace Windows as a development environment, and was universally reviled for how truly awful it was.

I used CentOS for servers on VM hosting box and that went fine. This is more in the Linux wheelhouse than desktop is IMO. It's the only place I would recommend Linux.

 

[Monkey God]

Have you tried Ubuntu Mate 16 or 17 specifically? You might be surprised.

 

[Snowdog]

Have you tried Ubuntu Mate 16 or 17 specifically? You might be surprised.

Surprised by what? I tried Mate on Mint and it doesn't do anything for me. I am currently running Kubuntu 17 and it's the same old creaky Linux Desktop experience.

While I initially was flipping DEs, I ignored application crashes/hangs.

But now when I am running updated, vanilla Kubuntu, this kind of thing is not acceptable.



Linux Desktop still has too many issues for me.

 

[Vermillion]

Surprised by what? I tried Mate on Mint and it doesn't do anything for me. I am currently running Kubuntu 17 and it's the same old creaky Linux Desktop experience.

While I initially was flipping DEs, I ignored application crashes/hangs.

But now when I am running updated, vanilla Kubuntu, this kind of thing is not acceptable.

<snip>

Linux Desktop still has too many issues for me.

Wow. I didn't see anything like that on KDE Neon or Kubuntu or any of the other distros I've been playing with. I really wish had the same hardware you're running simply so I could play with it because honestly your situation is very interesting.

I will say this about KDE. It's not a DE for older hardware or low end hardware. It's really not. It's honestly the heaviest of the DEs out there and it's meant to be pretty cutting edge in terms of it's OpenGL support. So for a 10 year old video card to not be able to run that specific DE properly isn't all that surprising especially since Nvidia stop supporting the 8800GT officially and Nouveau is a shitty open source driver. Even Windows Vista and Windows 7 couldn't run Aero on older video cards. Instead you got that fallback UI that looked more like XP.

What bothers me about your 8800GT is that things like Mint Cinnamon doesn't run nice and smooth. Older and low end hardware should be able to run something like Mint Cinnamon, MATE, or Xubuntu easily and smoothly.

Unfortunately I don't have anything older than my old Acer AMD A8-4500M laptop that's nearly 5 years old now. But the AMDGPU open source driver runs all DEs wonderfully.

I will say though that somebody moving from Windows to Linux should be willing to learn about Linux and not just expect a Windows clone. They should be wiling to say...well I don't like Mint Cinnamon because the tearing (even though the tearing wouldn't happen if they hadn't fucked up their fork of Mutter). They then investigate and find out that MATE gives you an easy way to choose the compositor via Desktop Settings in Mint MATE or MATE Tweak in Ubuntu and Antergos. Thus solving the tearing issues.

I also think settings like those also need to be more transparent to help people learn.

 

[Lunar]

Ok, so I read through this thread, and you all need to calm down.

Snowdog, stop griping about old hardware not working with cutting edge Window Managers. KDE Plasma 5 on an 8800GT? That's just asking for problems. Would you try and run Windows 10 on an 8800GT, because that's effectively what you are doing here. Not exactly a fair comparison. Also, if you are going to complain about problems, you need to understand where the complaints should be directed. As others have said, the DE's aren't to blame here. Most of them, especially the lightweight ones, default to a software compositor and will not Vsync due to that. So, when you come into a linux forum, make a post like this one riddled with a lack of understanding, and then basically say Linux sucks, what do you really expect but vitriol? As far as Cinnamon is concerned, yes, the Mint team totally screwed up Muffin. However, the issues you bring up ONLY exist on NVIDIA hardware. I personally run Cinnamon on Manjaro with a GTX 960, and I have the same issues, but with some tinkering you can almost completely eliminate it. The Force Composition option is step 1. Step 2 is to understand what is causing the conflict. In this case I've narrowed it down to webkit, I think. It's either applications that rely on Webkit (Chrome and Steam for instance) or something common amongst them as those are the applications that cause the issue for me. I've found that removing them from the compositing pipeline (disable hardware rendering for them) prevents the window drag stutter issue altogether. I now drag windows nice and smooth on my Cinnamon desktop.

I don't remember who was suprised by the issue in KDE, but this I have also experienced, and it's due to crap NVIDIA drivers and which version of OpenGL Kwin is using. Kwin allows you to choose between OGL 2.0 or 3.0. I've personally had better luck with 3.0, but Force Composition has to be enabled regardless. The root of all this really comes down to NVIDIA drivers on Linux being the equivalent of a garbage fire. They're miserable. NVIDIA refuses to work with the community, refuses to use standards (see EGL streams and Wayland), and just overall are more than happy to give the middle finger to anyone. I personally will never use another NVIDIA GPU until they clean up their act.

Bullet, you've really got to calm down. I understand this entire thread could be seen as an attack on Linux, but the experiences in this thread are genuine, and I'm sorry, but Linux DOES have issues with hardware compatibility. I agree that TOSLINK is old and should be put out to pasture, however one of the things Linux users always bang on about is compatibility. And I'm sorry, but there are some things that shouldn't require jumping into the command line to accomplish in today's day and age. Frankly, audio and anything related to X have been an utter nightmare for years in Linux. ALSA and PulseAudio are buggy messes, and X is old, battered, and beaten.

And this is to everyone else. Can we please all just calm down, take a breath, relax, and have a calm discussion. At the end of the day, I don't care if you prefer Windows, Linux, OS/2, Amiga, whatever. What OS you use doesn't affect me or anyone else, but talking crap about someone else's choice of OS/hobby/whatever is just purposely trying to cause issues and it's really unnecessary and immature. I'm all for critique, but these discussions seem to devolve into something similar to playground name calling really fast.

EDIT: Changed should to shouldn't.

 

[ChadD]

Well bottom line in any event... The 8800 was released in 2007 and support from Nvidia was dropped back in 2014. So although I'm sure there may be a way to hack together something that works sort of... all the newest best compositers are going to be using OpenGL calls that card likely can't handle. If you search the 8800gt and windows 10 you will read a ton of issues, that I think may have been solved now with a Nvidia driver update... simply pointing out Win 10 support was hardly smooth on that hardware either.

As for GFXbenchmark... perhaps I'm wrong as I don't really use benchmark stuffs. However isn't the windows version using DirectX and not OpenGL. I know that benchmark runs metal and a few other APIs I'm pretty sure it mentions DX 11 support. I think the 8800 is DX 10 capable. Their is of course another possibility completely... software can use new open GL calls via driver extensions... so it is 100% possible that Nvidia did backport some OpenGL 3.0 calls into their driver for the 8800 to "fake" 3.0 support. (cause yes 3.0 was released 2 years after that card shipped). So worse case issue simply proves that Nvidias closed source driver for Linux didn't get the same love. I am sure they felt supporting a ton of backporting into their linux driver at the time could potentially hurt newer Quatro sales... cause even back then the only Linux clients Nvidia cared about where GFX companies running Linux+Quatros.

 

[NoOther]

but the experiences in this thread are genuine, and I'm sorry, but Linux DOES have issues with hardware compatibility. I agree that TOSLINK is old and should be put out to pasture, however one of the things Linux users always bang on about is compatibility. And I'm sorry, but there are some things that should require jumping into the command line to accomplish in today's day and age. Frankly, audio and anything related to X have been an utter nightmare for years in Linux. ALSA and PulseAudio are buggy messes, and X is old, battered, and beaten.

I think this says it all. I believe Snowdog was mainly blowing off steam after being frustrated over yet another issue with drivers. This has always been a problem with Linux and will continue to be a problem for some time. It isn't really a fault with Linux per se, it is up to the hardware manufacturers to provide information or drivers for the Linux community. And as many manufacturers have their own bottom lines to think about, they just can't usually provide the level of support needed. I think people need to stop being defensive when someone brings up these issues, and be more understanding and inclusive. Let's be honest, we have all been there at some point in our journey. Not everyone has learned the same troubleshooting steps or solutions that we have in our journey.

The good news, is that many newer manufacturers seem to be more open to sharing with Linux and providing more support. I have had pretty good conversations with numerous companies building hardware now with respect to specifically supporting Linux, and even when they may not have a lot of stuff listed directly on their site, many of them have provided me engineering level support anyway. Of course it probably also helps that I work in an industry they very much want to be in. But the fact that when I start talking to their engineers, a lot of them are using Linux at home and/or work and are familiar with some of the pitfalls, is very encouraging for the future.

For me, Linux at home has always been pretty much a hobby. It has many of the things I love, customization, tinkering, learning something new, and a challenge. For work, it's occasionally is a real PITA trying to get to work when there are other systems to integrate with, or hardware constraints that we have to deal with. But generally I still prefer it over the other options available (IE Solaris and Windows).

And this is to everyone else. Can we please all just calm down, take a breath, relax, and have a calm discussion. At the end of the day, I don't care if you prefer Windows, Linux, OS/2, Amiga, whatever. What OS you use doesn't affect me or anyone else, but talking crap about someone else's choice of OS/hobby/whatever is just purposely trying to cause issues and it's really unnecessary and immature. I'm all for critique, but these discussions seem to devolve into something similar to playground name calling really fast.

Yeah seriously. It seems like every one of these threads ends up in some downward spiral about one OS vs another OS, rather than just about the issues originally presented.

 

[Snowdog]

Wow. I didn't see anything like that on KDE Neon or Kubuntu or any of the other distros I've been playing with. I really wish had the same hardware you're running simply so I could play with it because honestly your situation is very interesting.

I will say this about KDE. It's not a DE for older hardware or low end hardware. It's really not. It's honestly the heaviest of the DEs out there and it's meant to be pretty cutting edge in terms of it's OpenGL support. So for a 10 year old video card to not be able to run that specific DE properly isn't all that surprising especially since Nvidia stop supporting the 8800GT officially and Nouveau is a shitty open source driver. Even Windows Vista and Windows 7 couldn't run Aero on older video cards. Instead you got that fallback UI that looked more like XP.

What bothers me about your 8800GT is that things like Mint Cinnamon doesn't run nice and smooth. Older and low end hardware should be able to run something like Mint Cinnamon, MATE, or Xubuntu easily and smoothly.

Do note that I was eventually able to set "ForceCompositionPipeline = On", and then the tearing was gone, and performance was reasonable. So HW and Driver were capable, just a hunt to enable it.

It really does seem like until that was enabled it was in software rendering on the desktop no matter what. I installed Windows 10 to give it similar treatment and at the end of the install, it was working just Like Linux. Screen tearing on jerky window dragging. But that was on the generic install drivers. It then automatically installed NVidia drivers and rebooted and was fine.

For whatever reason. Without ForceCompositionPipeline, Linux seems to treat NVidia cards as generic frame buffer.

As far as application crashes, they just seem like par for the course with Linux. It was the same in virtually every Desktop install I have done. It was the same at work, with our IT dept installed RHEL. I think that work install of RHEL convinced nearly everyone I work with that Linux was garbage (it was worse than any of my personal installs).

I will say though that somebody moving from Windows to Linux should be willing to learn about Linux and not just expect a Windows clone.

I am hardly new to Linux, and I was not expecting a Windows clone. I just wanted to check how things have progressed lately.

My frustration is aimed at how slowly things have progressed. How things are still a fight to get working, how the polish is still missing. I tested Elementary/Mint/SuSE/Kubuntu in that order. I didn't even mention my Elementary experience which was even worse. I just wrote that off as one of the smaller distros lacking in polish (other than appearance). Part of the reason I went for the most popular options next....

 

[ChadD]

I am hardly new to Linux, and I was not expecting a Windows clone. I just wanted to check how things have progressed lately.

My frustration is aimed at how slowly things have progressed. How things are still a fight to get working, how the polish is still missing. I tested Elementary/Mint/SuSE/Kubuntu in that order. I didn't even mention my Elementary experience which was even worse. I just wrote that off as one of the smaller distros lacking in polish (other than appearance). Part of the reason I went for the most popular options next....

I could be wrong here... but from what I have read you have tested it with the same hardware you had around 10 years ago ? Why would you expect much to have changed.

I'm not denying you ran into some legit issues with some stuff. I am just wondering how this is different then trying to install Windows 10 and fully patching it on 12 year old hardware and then throwing your hands up when it runs like garbage.

 

[Vermillion]

I am hardly new to Linux, and I was not expecting a Windows clone. I just wanted to check how things have progressed lately.

Apologies if you felt that comment was aimed at you. It was not meant to be. You've been quite open about how you were coming back around to see the state of things.

What I was talking about was new users looking to move to Linux from Windows for the first time. Part of the issue is that those new users need to be willing to learn. They can't just load up some distro and hope everything works the exact same was as Windows.

 

[Snowdog]

I could be wrong here... but from what I have read you have tested it with the same hardware you had around 10 years ago ? Why would you expect much to have changed.

I'm not denying you ran into some legit issues with some stuff. I am just wondering how this is different then trying to install Windows 10 and fully patching it on 12 year old hardware and then throwing your hands up when it runs like garbage.

Why would I expect different on the same HW? Forward progress fixing issues.

I have installed Linux on every PC I have owned since I first started buying PCs in 1993 (Amiga before that).

It was the Same HW ~4 years ago, yes.

10 years ago no, I had completely different HW and similar issues, different HW again 15 years ago, different again 20 years ago, and our work machines were also completely different HW.

 

[heatlesssun]

Part of the issue is that those new users need to be willing to learn. They can't just load up some distro and hope everything works the exact same was as Windows.

I doubt many people in a place like this aren't willing to learn. It becomes a practical matter though. There's only so much time a lot more to do with ones devices that than screw around with installing an OS. And even when it comes to technology, getting into learning new development tools, languages, hell I'm trying to get my feet wet with VR development, certainly not anything I know much about, but to me I'd rather spend time on that than installing desktop Linux. And that doesn't mean I love Windows.

Windows simply works well for a lot of people, it's not perfect and has it's issues but there's so many claims made by some Linux folks about how wonderful and liberating it is and sure that's true for some folks but most people just want to use their computers to get things done and if Windows does that well then what's the point of just relearning, dumping applications, etc. just to do what already works?

If you're coming from the perspective that Windows sucks or is always flaking out on you then sure, you're going to hate it. If you just plug stuff in, install apps and it just tends to work, even updates, then what's in it for those people? Why fix what isn't broken? That's the position for me. I use tons of stuff that's no Linux compatible, it works, there's not a lot in it for me running Linux as host client.

 

[Snowdog]

Apologies if you felt that comment was aimed at you. It was not meant to be. You've been quite open about how you were coming back around to see the state of things.

What I was talking about was new users looking to move to Linux from Windows for the first time. Part of the issue is that those new users need to be willing to learn. They can't just load up some distro and hope everything works the exact same was as Windows.

New users should really look on it more as a hobby, experimental option at first. This is where some over-exuberant community members tend to paint of false picture of that status of Desktop Linux, that is not only good replacement for the average home user, but a better one, and just as easy, if not easier to install. Those kinds of statements are in contrast with the reality of the situation. Most home users are better off just sticking to Windows.

 

[MrCrispy]

Every Linux distro uses X. Some of the newer ones are starting to use Wayland. There is no reason why the appropriate fixes have not been made and the configs that work on standard video cards have not been made part of the standard install. The problems people face are all common and the same solutions keep coming up when people spend time googling and trying out things. Yet because of each distro's NIH syndrome, everything is different. A new user who has no clue about this stuff is expected to know that distro X is based off Ubuntu which is based off Debian which uses deb and know how to add their ppa's etc.

There is absolutely zero excuse why desktop graphics performance, we're not talking gaming here, should suffer. You don't need proprietary codecs for any of that, its all standard open source stuff. And this isn't really about Windows, a new user trying out Linux without knowing Windows exists is going to have the same problems.

 

[ChadD]

Every Linux distro uses X. Some of the newer ones are starting to use Wayland. There is no reason why the appropriate fixes have not been made and the configs that work on standard video cards have not been made part of the standard install. The problems people face are all common and the same solutions keep coming up when people spend time googling and trying out things. Yet because of each distro's NIH syndrome, everything is different. A new user who has no clue about this stuff is expected to know that distro X is based off Ubuntu which is based off Debian which uses deb and know how to add their ppa's etc.

There is absolutely zero excuse why desktop graphics performance, we're not talking gaming here, should suffer. You don't need proprietary codecs for any of that, its all standard open source stuff. And this isn't really about Windows, a new user trying out Linux without knowing Windows exists is going to have the same problems.

You guys get he is trying to run hardware acceleration on a video card designed 12 years ago right ? He claims its not the same hardware he used 10 years back... but if we are to believe that he bought an 8800 5 years after it was released and a year before Nvidia stopped official support.

I'm sorry I know we always do say Linux tends to work well with older hardware... but their is a point where your sort of being stupid. He has a video card that CLEARLY stats as per the company that made it that the silicon is OpenGL 2.1 compliant... so does he choose to install a Lowend made for 10 year old hardware DE... no he installs the one with 3D acceleration targeted at OpenGL 3.0. This would be as stupid as installing Windows 10 on an 8800gt and bitching about DirectX12 failing. I have tried to understand where he is coming from... but the facts of the situation sort of make it clear the issue has nothing at all to do with Linux and everything to do with some odd expectations of perfect OpenGL support on a card released years before the OpenGL spec he is trying to run his software on.

I'm sorry I often defend Linux as the best option for older hardware... however we have to have realistic expectations as well. Running a video card from 2007 and expecting it to support OpenGL 3 which was released in 2009..... is just insane. The windows nvidia driver may fake opengl 3.0 support... but I can tell you for 100% sure its faked through extensions and in no way is it full OpenGL 3.0... the 8800GT silicon simply doesn't have it.

 

[Chuklr]

You can still find Geforce 8899GTs here for example (and a couple of others) on Amazon.com.

I have a GeForce 9600GT Sonic in it's original box that I replaced with the Radeon HD 5850 that's running right now.

I do not find it surprising that someone has a GeForce 8800GT laying around.

EDIT: Fixed: Amazon.com product link.

 

[BulletDust]

If you're coming from the perspective that Windows sucks or is always flaking out on you then sure, you're going to hate it. If you just plug stuff in, install apps and it just tends to work, even updates, then what's in it for those people? Why fix what isn't broken? That's the position for me. I use tons of stuff that's no Linux compatible, it works, there's not a lot in it for me running Linux as host client.

The same with Linux, and that's the issue with this whole thread. If you come from the perspective of "Linux sucks and is always flaking out" than sure, you're going to hate it.

From the very beginning this thread was not about help, this was a thread, posted in the Linux subforum, on how shit Linux is on the desktop - And it's all unfounded, most of us are running Linux no problem on hardware from this decade - Quite simply, if Linux was as bad as Snowdog is trying to imply, I wouldn't use it.

The 8800GT is not supported by Nvidia anymore and personally I've had about as much in the way of issues with Nvidia drivers as I have with Mesa drivers. Good graphics drivers have been a long time coming for Linux and if dropping OGL 3.0 software rendering on the 8800 series of all things means focusing more development on newer cards - That's a good thing as you can pick up a newer and better card than the 8800 for around $80.00 AU (probably ~$50.00 US).

If Snowdog wants to start learning as opposed to bitching, great! But somehow I think his got a point to make and that's the purpose of this thread.

 

[ChadD]

You can still find Geforce 8899GTs here for example (and a couple of others) on Amazon.com.

I have a GeForce 9600GT Sonic in it's original box that I replaced with the Radeon HD 5850 that's running right now.

I do not find it surprising that someone has a GeForce 8800GT laying around.

EDIT: Fixed: Amazon.com product link.

I really don't think anyone is going to buy that 1 in stock $200 8800.

My point is simple sure perhaps it was already old and outdated when he bought it. People get deals on old stuff all the time... perhaps he picked it up used 5 years ago for next to nothing. Still why would he expect a modern 2017 piece of software that clearly states its written to use a standard that card doesn't conform to... to work perfectly ? I mean as an experiment to see if you can make it work... sure why not. Expecting a GPU to do things it was never designed to do "out of the box" seems odd. Of course it was a high end card in its day... and I would imagine its not impossible to make it run well... as he states the windows driver appears to have a few extensions or something that allow for a fuller OpenGL implementation then is baked into the hardware itself. I am just not shocked to hear it didn't work out of the box with a DE render aimed at a higher OpenGL version, using a bunch of GL extensions that where not written until a few years after that card shipped from the fab.

I mean he could solve his issue with a cheap ass video card. Nvidia ATI

 

[Chuklr]

I doubt they would buy that one or the $300 one either, but they are still there for purchase. I know I wouldn't. But, if I had one from an old build I would try to get some use out of it.

EDIT: Corrected typos.

 

[BulletDust]

I really don't think anyone is going to buy that 1 in stock $200 8800.

I sold an 8800GTS ten years ago for $90.00!

 

[BulletDust]

I mean he could solve his issue with a cheap ass video card. Nvidia ATI

A cheap 2GB Nvidia GT610 works awesome under Linux, you can even game quite well at 720p on decent ports.

 

[Snowdog]

You guys get he is trying to run hardware acceleration on a video card designed 12 years ago right ? He claims its not the same hardware he used 10 years back... but if we are to believe that he bought an 8800 5 years after it was released and a year before Nvidia stopped official support.

The 8800GT and the G92 that it based on, were only released in LATE 2007. I bought only about 6 months after release in the middle of 2008. So it was essentially a new card when I bought it, slightly less than 9 years ago.

Also while searching for solutions, I found MANY people with the same issue on much newer Geforce cards (like GTX970), This isn't just about my card being OLD.

Why don't you Google: "Linux Screen Tearing" and come back after you have read every entry, which will be never. This is widespread annoyance in the Linux community. Don't act like I created some rare obscure issue due to old HW.

And really, the screen tearing was tip of the iceberg of the issues I still have with desktop Linux.

I just installed Windows 10 on my "OLD" HW, and everything JUST WORKS. Solid, stable, smooth, no tearing issues, no sound issue, no multi-monitor issues, no crashing from flaky software. It just works.

I don't like Windows 10 UI, I don't like that it is loaded up with crappy tablet apps, and I don't like the direction Microsoft is going with Windows.

But functionally I can't fault windows 10 (yet). I wish I could say the same about Desktop Linux.

 

[heatlesssun]

The same with Linux, and that's the issue with this whole thread. If you come from the perspective of "Linux sucks and is always flaking out" than sure, you're going to hate it.

From the very beginning this thread was not about help, this was a thread, posted in the Linux subforum, on how shit Linux is on the desktop - And it's all unfounded, most of us are running Linux no problem on hardware from this decade - Quite simply, if Linux was as bad as Snowdog is trying to imply, I wouldn't use it.

The 8800GT is not supported by Nvidia anymore and personally I've had about as much in the way of issues with Nvidia drivers as I have with Mesa drivers. Good graphics drivers have been a long time coming for Linux and if dropping OGL 3.0 software rendering on the 8800 series of all things means focusing more development on newer cards - That's a good thing as you can pick up a newer and better card than the 8800 for around $80.00 AU (probably ~$50.00 US).

If Snowdog wants to start learning as opposed to bitching, great! But somehow I think his got a point to make and that's the purpose of this thread.

Fair point, but not everyone is looking to run Linux full time and people do experiment. And it's not like people like that aren't looking got help, but no, they aren't hardcore Linux fans and when you see people constantly praise how easy it is to setup and use Linux, issues that take time and research and dealing with various attitudes, again, some people just do it for their experimental purposes and when they say "Hey, here's an issue" and it is a real issue, well there are other things to do besides experiment with desktop Linux.

Different people will see it different ways and that's driven by individual wants and needs. I do a lot of different things with my PCs and it's not that I'm looking for a Windows clone but I'm not that interested in something that doesn't handle things I need and want on my PCs that Windows does well. Most people are interested in tossing out everything that works for something that may have it's own strengths but requires tons of time, not just dealing with the OS but applications as well.

For some it's not a big deal. For others that's a HUGE effort and no amount of help will make it simple or even practical.