Linux performance still a let down on desktop.

[Deadjasper]

Just my humble noobe 2 cents worth. I've been running Ubuntu-MATE for about a month now. And to me it's a keeper. I have a fairly sophisticated dual monitor setup and have been able to get over most hurdles with ease. The one remaining glitch is my Canon laser, it doesn't seem to like Linux. But it will go before Linux does. My 2 Brother printers work flawlessy and were easy to set up. Libreoffice does everything I need in an office suit and Thunderbird is so close to Outlook in form and function that there are zero issues to deal with or get used to. Sure, there are things I wish it did more like Windows but the minor issues are a small price to pay for finally being rid of Microsoft.

All I can say to those who find it unusable or marginally usable is you should be glad there is an alternative. Linux is heading in the right direction. After years of trying it and then dumping it, I've finally found one I can live with.

 

[bezant]

My advice is to set up your DE better. My daughter and my wife both use my machine just fine - In fact they've never even commented on the fact it runs Linux.

There's Chrome, there's Firefox, there's Thunderbird, there's Libre Office, there's the file manager.

If you want the UI to look like Windows, make it look like Windows. If you want the UI to look like macOS, make it look like macOS. With such freedoms your comment really doesn't hold water.

Nah, I actually like it the way it is. She doesn't have to touch all my stuff. She has a desktop and a laptop.

 

[BulletDust]

And here I thought Vermillion and I worked this out.

I don't recall quoting anything you posted and saying you were lying. If I did, I apologize to you.

Vermillion did a heck of a job determining the primary issue and I complimented him on that.

Just my 2¢ ... I'm going to have to restock on pennies.

Re read post #20.

Vermillion suspected Muffin, I'd experienced the issue.

 

[BulletDust]

Nah, I actually like it the way it is. She doesn't have to touch all my stuff. She has a desktop and a laptop.

And that's perfectly fine, you use what's best - Doesn't reflect on Linux though.

 

[BulletDust]

Just my humble noobe 2 cents worth. I've been running Ubuntu-MATE for about a month now. And to me it's a keeper. I have a fairly sophisticated dual monitor setup and have been able to get over most hurdles with ease. The one remaining glitch is my Canon laser, it doesn't seem to like Linux. But it will go before Linux does. My 2 Brother printers work flawlessy and were easy to set up. Libreoffice does everything I need in an office suit and Thunderbird is so close to Outlook in form and function that there are zero issues to deal with or get used to. Sure, there are things I wish it did more like Windows but the minor issues are a small price to pay for finally being rid of Microsoft.

All I can say to those who find it unusable or marginally usable is you should be glad there is an alternative. Linux is heading in the right direction. After years of trying it and then dumping it, I've finally found one I can live with.

Have you looked on the Canon site for drivers? They do actually have Linux drivers conveniently packaged as DEB installers for many of their products - Very easy to set up in many cases.

 

[Chuklr]

Re read post #20.

Vermillion suspected Muffin, I'd experienced the issue.

Yes, and I never respond to Post #20 I quoted a post Vermillion made. Don't conflate the two post I had not interest in your Post #20 and that is why I didn't quote, cite, or reference it. If I had been directing my post at your Post I would have quote it in it's entirety or the portion I was interested. I did not do that. My post you took exception to had nothing to do with you.

 

[BulletDust]

Yes, and I never respond to Post #20 I quoted a post Vermillion made. Don't conflate the two post I had not interest in your Post #20 and that is why I didn't quote, cite, or reference it. If I had been directing my post at your Post I would have quote it in it's entirety or the portion I was interested. I did not do that. My post you took exception to had nothing to do with you.

Whatever.

 

[Snowdog]

Of course edge tearing appeared in every DE you tried, it's the compositor that renders the desktop, not the DE! You cannot change the WM under Cinnamon, you are forced to use the Muffin WM - Once again, highlighting that one Distro, one DE and one WM are not a an ideal solution at all!


You swapped DE's while using the same WM as you cannot use anything but Muffin under Cinnamon! This is why you were having the issues you are describing! It has nothing to do with Linux in general with the exception that Muffin is garbage, it has everything to do with the fact that you went installing random DE's while not considering how Cinnamon works and hosed your install.

You seem confused, perhaps in a rush to rant, you aren't processing. Cinnamon is the DE. I am not trying to run a different a different WM under Cinnamon.

I am choosing different DE's. Which do use different WMs. For instance I was running KDE, which was running Kwin as it's window manager, verified as running in the process list.

Sounds working just fine here using onboard audio, an X-Fi and Nvidia HDMI out, no idea just what you're on about regarding sound.

Perhaps if you read, instead of ranted you would have an idea. It's very specific, it SPDIF passthrough of DTS/DD sound.

Though ranting at, and blaming users is too often the response to Linux issues.

The fact remains that Mint, currently the most popular Linux distro, is broken in the ways I described, out of the box.

 

[MrCrispy]

And both issues were related to the fact that you installed TLP, you even admit this in the thread in question and yet here you are blaming the OS!

You wonder why I get on the defensive? This is why I get on the defensive! It's bullshit, you hose a perfectly good OS install and you blame Linux and go into every thread effectively claiming that you tried Linux and it was crap, knowing only too well that Linux was fine it was you that hosed the install - This is the reason why Linux users are in no way forthcoming when it comes to helping Windows users transition, because Windows users have an uncanny tendency to turn what should be a learning experience into a witch hunt.

This is a good example of the attitude new users have to face. I had extremely poor battery life, which you admit is still an issue in Linux. The overwhelming advice is to install tlp, which I did. It caused other issues none of which were even remotely mentioned. And now I'm blamed for 'hosing a perfectly good OS install' as if its my fault. I've spent days trying everything, reading, diagnosing, much much more than any normal user would be able to. The simple fact is Linux on the desktop has limitations as you yourself have admitted - its not optimized for laptops, there are problems with the graphics stack, these are extremely common problems.

If someone has problems getting things to work in Linux which work out of the box in OSX/Windows then its an issue and its not going to go away by itself. The 'state of Linux desktop' link I posted mentioned many such things.

So yeah go ahead and blame users, that'll help. Try not to take things personally.

 

[BulletDust]

I am choosing different DE's. Which do use different WMs. For instance I was running KDE, which was running Kwin as it's window manager, verified as running in the process list.

Muffin is tied to Cinnamon as the WM under your chosen distro, it cannot be removed or overwritten as it is now an integral part of the OS. When you changed DE's you effectively stuffed everything as Muffin was still compositing the desktop. Had you simply disabled desktop composition all would have been resolved under Cinnamon.

As stated, a prefect example of why one DE, one WM and one distro does not suit all.

Perhaps if you read, instead of ranted you would have an idea. It's very specific, it SPDIF passthrough of DTS/DD sound.

Use multichannel PCM, its the same thing, just decoded by the PC as opposed to the receiver. I run a HTPC running Ubuntu MATE to a Pioneer VSX-LX70 receiver via HDMI and I don't have an issue. You are aware of the fact that you have to give your user permission to access the soundcard in this manner in most cases? This is because by design Linux is more secure than Windows.

This is a good example of the attitude new users have to face. I had extremely poor battery life, which you admit is still an issue in Linux. The overwhelming advice is to install tlp, which I did. It caused other issues none of which were even remotely mentioned. And now I'm blamed for 'hosing a perfectly good OS install' as if its my fault. I've spent days trying everything, reading, diagnosing, much much more than any normal user would be able to. The simple fact is Linux on the desktop has limitations as you yourself have admitted - its not optimized for laptops, there are problems with the graphics stack, these are extremely common problems.

No, battery life under Linux is an issue with certain processors - I run a Core 2 and my battery life is identical to Windows. Furthermore, the characteristic regarding battery life under Linux vs Windows is well documented - You weren't aware of this before installing Linux?

The fact is, a third party application that you installed hosed your install; resulting in flickering while in 2D mode and killing GPU acceleration in desktop applications - And you post in threads claiming that Firefox and VLC don't work as well under Linux as they do under Windows, a point that's flat out incorrect! Myself and many others are running such software applications just fine!

You think I'm blaming Windows users? You're effectively calling me a liar! I take that personally.

There's nothing wrong with Linux with the exception that power saving strategies under your processor are better implemented under Windows than under Linux, what happened in your situation was purely a result of a third party application you installed and like the OP's example is no more widespread an issue than the numerous problems under Windows.

Linux didn't suit your requirements, accept responsibility for the secondary issues you created and move on.

 

[MrCrispy]

Did I ever say Linux was a bad OS or to blame? I never called you a liar, you are taking this far too personally. I had problems with Linux and posted about them, that's what the forum is for. This thread is all about how out of the box major Linux distros don't work with certain gpu's. VLC does indeed not work as well in Linux for me and the issue is well known - this is 100% correct. You are assuming this to mean all graphics are broken in Linux and getting all bent out of shape - no one ever said that.

 

[Snowdog]

Use multichannel PCM, its the same thing, just decoded by the PC as opposed to the receiver. I run a HTPC running Ubuntu MATE to a Pioneer VSX-LX70 receiver via HDMI and I don't have an issue. You are aware of the fact that you have to give your user permission to access the soundcard in this manner in most cases? This is because by design Linux is more secure than Windows.

It's not the same thing, if you only have a SPDIF output from your PC. Then it is just one more thing that doesn't work in Linux.

 

[MrCrispy]

It's not the same thing, if you only have a SPDIF output from your PC. Then it is just one more thing that doesn't work in Linux.

Right. PCM out is not the same as bitstreaming. Honestly Linux is much further along than I remember, in KDE I saw the option to choose the sound output device in the tray, out of the box, which is pretty cool. I know that OpenElec/LibreElec, which is a special build for Kodi, allows bitstreaming, so I know its technically possible in Linux. Why its not enabled by default in a modern desktop distro is anyone's guess.

 

[Vermillion]

The fact remains that Mint, currently the most popular Linux distro, is broken in the ways I described, out of the box.

Agreed. After seeing it I 100% agree with you at least with the main version Cinnamon. It's a very sad state of affairs that Mint puts out such a subpar product. Especially knowing it doesn't have to be that way. So many other distros and DE's get it right. I mean hell...simply using Mutter itself would mean the issues go away. But instead they just had to fork Mutter and create the subpar Muffin. -.-

 

[BulletDust]

Right. PCM out is not the same as bitstreaming. Honestly Linux is much further along than I remember, in KDE I saw the option to choose the sound output device in the tray, out of the box, which is pretty cool. I know that OpenElec/LibreElec, which is a special build for Kodi, allows bitstreaming, so I know its technically possible in Linux. Why its not enabled by default in a modern desktop distro is anyone's guess.

Both are digital data, one is PCM multichannel, one is SPDIF, both achieve the same thing by shifting the location of the decoding process and in my experience Linux does an outstanding job at decoding - I've been involved in HT for quite some time.

 

[BulletDust]

It's not the same thing, if you only have a SPDIF output from your PC. Then it is just one more thing that doesn't work in Linux.

What?! If you have a digital output you can stream via SPDIF or multichannel PCM - There is media that's encoded in MPCM.

Why get so pissy over the fact that I highlighted how your OP was just mindless ranting?

 

[BulletDust]

Did I ever say Linux was a bad OS or to blame? I never called you a liar, you are taking this far too personally. I had problems with Linux and posted about them, that's what the forum is for. This thread is all about how out of the box major Linux distros don't work with certain gpu's. VLC does indeed not work as well in Linux for me and the issue is well known - this is 100% correct. You are assuming this to mean all graphics are broken in Linux and getting all bent out of shape - no one ever said that.

Once again, you're wrong! I can find any number of complaints on Google relating to certain issues with software applications under Windows, that in itself by no means indicates that the problem is widespread nor does it indicate that it's an issue with everyone and that Windows is just not fit for desktop application - You are on a witch hunt and you are generalising, it's that simple. You experienced an issue that we both know is related 100% to your messing with power configurations, therefore GPU 2D clock settings and therefore GPU hardware acceleration.

I don't have this supposed issue with Firefox and VLC under Linux, no one else here is reporting an issue with Firefox or VLC under Linux - Is everyone just blase to your plight or could the problem actually be something you did? I think it's fairly safe to assume that the issue was a result of what you did and the chances of your issue being a widespread Linux concern rendering Linux unsuitable for desktop application is just....Mindless ranting.

Even the OP's issue has been reported and diagnosed on the [H] forums before by another user in the past!

You say I blame the user, I do to a degree. You also imply that I'm lying - Stalemate, let it go.

 

[Snowdog]

What?! If you have a digital output you can stream via SPDIF or multichannel PCM - There is media that's encoded in MPCM.

Why get so pissy over the fact that I highlighted how your OP was just mindless ranting?

Do you have to act like a total jerk in every reply? People like you really give Linux users a bad name.

And my OP was exactly correct. Vermillion tested and found exactly the same problem.

As for the sound issue:

S/PDIF can only do 2 channel PCM. It only does Multichannel via DD/DTS compressed encoding.

Thus you need S/PDIF passthrough working to playback DD/DTS movies over S/PDIF. This has always been a huge pain to get working in Linux, and it appears that is still the case.

 

[BulletDust]

Do you have to act like a total jerk in every reply? People like you really give Linux users a bad name.

And my OP was exactly correct. Vermillion tested and found exactly the same problem.

As for the sound issue:

S/PDIF can only do 2 channel PCM. It only does Multichannel via DD/DTS compressed encoding.

Thus you need S/PDIF passthrough working to playback DD/DTS movies over S/PDIF. This has always been a huge pain to get working in Linux, and it appears that is still the case.

Considering hometheater and the SPDIF protocol over HDMI, you can bitstream to the receiver or you can send audio over HDMI as multichannel PCM - Both are purely digital signals with no added compression, the only thing that changes is where the signal is decoded. For example, due to a chipset limitation the original PS3 could only send digital audio as Multichannel PCM, yet it was regarded as one of the best Bluray players available at the time - It's still a great Bluray player. Sonically and technically speaking there should be no audible difference between Multichannel PCM and bitstream.

People struggle to understand that you don't have to bitstream audio as the SPDIF protocol over HDMI. In fact, considering PAP, multichannel PCM over HDMI is a vastly easier way to transmit data to the receiver with no compromises apart from the fact that PCM will appear on your receiver's display as opposed to DD, DTS, DTS-HD, DD+, Dolby TrueHD, etc.

As someone with a great deal of experience in hometheater and HTPC's I can honestly say that Windows was always a compromise, although at the time I thought sound and image quality were fine. Under Linux running Kodi and an Intel iGPU via HDMI, not only is audio notably superior, but picture quality is also notably better - Even my other half noticed it. Boot times and overall stability are also considerably better. On both operating systems scaling and resolution was set up perfectly on identical hardware with the receiver calibrated to listening position identically for both setups. Even my main workstation sounds better running Linux as opposed to Windows via a high end 2.1CH setup.

Furthermore, I never disputed that you weren't correct regarding Linux Mint - I agreed that Linux Mint is poo. Where I disagreed strongly was where you tried to take one, isolated example and apply it to Linux as a whole while claiming that as a whole Linux is not ready for the desktop. This is bullshit, I use Linux every single day, I never turn my PC off and I encounter no issues running Ubuntu MATE on my main PC or the other three PC's I have here all running the same OS.

If I came up with a blanket statement like that regarding Windows you'd hack me to pieces! Why should I accept your blanket generalisation just because you're you and you predominantly use Windows?

 

[Snowdog]

Considering hometheater and the SPDIF protocol over HDMI, you can bitstream to the receiver or you can send audio over HDMI as multichannel PCM - Both are purely digital signals with no added compression, the only thing that changes is where the signal is decoded. For example, due to a chipset limitation the original PS3 could only send digital audio as Multichannel PCM, yet it was regarded as one of the best Bluray players available at the time - It's still a great Bluray player. Sonically and technically speaking there should be no audible difference between Multichannel PCM and bitstream.

Exactly what is your comprehension problem with:

This time, like last time, SPDIF passthrough for DTS/DD was MIA. Though this time, I am unwilling to waste my time hunting it down.

Perhaps if you read, instead of ranted you would have an idea. It's very specific, it SPDIF passthrough of DTS/DD sound.
.

It's not the same thing, if you only have a SPDIF output from your PC. Then it is just one more thing that doesn't work in Linux.

HDMI doesn't apply. I don't have HDMI neither on my computer, nor or my Denon Receiver.

I only have optical SPDIF, so optical SPDIF has to work to get digital mutichannel sound. It not working is yet another Linux hassle.

 

[Snowdog]

Agreed. After seeing it I 100% agree with you at least with the main version Cinnamon. It's a very sad state of affairs that Mint puts out such a subpar product. Especially knowing it doesn't have to be that way. So many other distros and DE's get it right. I mean hell...simply using Mutter itself would mean the issues go away. But instead they just had to fork Mutter and create the subpar Muffin. -.-

An update: I have tried SuSE KDE and Kubuntu and both have the same screen tearing issue.

So it's not just Mint for my HW. It appears to be age old issue of Linux Driver problems.

The highest version number of NVidia Linux Drivers for my card are 340.x. As I mentioned earlier, there is an option in 375.x and later drivers to "force composition pipeline". This options does not exist in the drivers for my card, and I get tearing in KDE.

 

[Vermillion]

An update: I have tried SuSE KDE and Kubuntu and both have the same screen tearing issue.

So it's not just Mint for my HW. It appears to be age old issue of Linux Driver problems.

The highest version number of NVidia Linux Drivers for my card are 340.x. As I mentioned earlier, there is an option in 375.x and later drivers to "force composition pipeline". This options does not exist in the drivers for my card, and I get tearing in KDE.

That's very interesting. Kwin uses OpenGL to render. It honestly shouldn't need some special option to play nice. Out of curiosity have you tried the open source driver just to see if there's a difference?

 

[Snowdog]

That's very interesting. Kwin uses OpenGL to render. It honestly shouldn't need some special option to play nice. Out of curiosity have you tried the open source driver just to see if there's a difference?

It came up with the Open source driver. I saw no difference before and after installing NVidia closed source drivers.

The reason I mention the "Force composition pipeline" as it was indicated in a couple of places as fixing screen tearing with NVidia cards.

 

[BulletDust]

Forced composition enabled here running Nvidia drivers/hardware, no tearing whatsoever using a Logitech mouse that literally has a flywheen as a scroll wheel, and I can assure you your problem is nothing like it was under Mint Cinnamon.

Did you even check to see if the forced composition setting stuck when you ticked it? The Nvidia X Server settings are a little different to Nvidia Control Panel under Windows due to the increased security of Linux.

The vastly outdated TOSLINK can pass 5.1 bitstream once it's configured to pass through ALSA - No good posting a link as you'll probably just claim the process for enabling it is too hard while praising the fact that GPO has to be used to keep Windows updates in check. Not bagging you out specifically, but that's the usual response from Windows users. You may believe I'm cynical, but Windows users have to understand that due to witch hunting threads like this while not even attempting to ask for assistance means you literally earned it. When I was struggling to bitstream HD audio over HDMI under Windows, not once did I feel the need to create a thread bagging out the entire OS simply due to one isolated issue relating to my specific configuration when I knew only too well that there are millions of people using the OS daily with no issues whatsoever.

Personally, due to the fact that TOSLINK was released in 1983, I don't see any reason whatsoever for a legacy connection to be supported under Linux and my guess is that developers feel the same - TOSLINK doesn't even have the necessary bandwidth for HD audio formats and should be left to die a graceful death as one of the pioneers of digital audio.

Just remember, the millions of Linux users not complaining about tearing issues vastly outweigh the number of users complaining of such issues under Linux. As stated, the OS has to run on a magnitude of differing hardware and software configurations and as a result suffers issues at times no different to Windows that can be found via a simple Google search, just like Windows this by no means indicates that the issue is widespread affecting Linux as a whole.

You need to step off your bandwagon. If you want to use Linux there are users that would be more than happy to assist in rectifying your issues, but my guess is that you're using Linux in order to find flaws - You have no intention of using it on a regular basis.

 

[Vermillion]

It came up with the Open source driver. I saw no difference before and after installing NVidia closed source drivers.

The reason I mention the "Force composition pipeline" as it was indicated in a couple of places as fixing screen tearing with NVidia cards.

That's amazing to me especially with as highly regarded as Nvidia's drivers have been for Linux. I'll have to go back to my older laptop and do some testing. It's an AMD A8 chip. I'll load up AMD proprietary drivers and see what happens under Mint. I know with Arch on XFCE and Compton it's completely fine with both the AMDGPU open source driver and the proprietary driver. I stopped using the proprietary drivers though (pain in the ass on Arch) with AMD when AMDGPU came out. Huge difference in performance with AMDGPU and the old xf86-video-ati driver.

I know it's comparing AMD to Nvidia but I'm just interested in why NVs drivers and their open source drivers are like that.

 

[BulletDust]

I know it's comparing AMD to Nvidia but I'm just interested in why NVs drivers and their open source drivers are like that.

They're not.

I use them with a flywheel mouse and my scrolling is awesome. My guess is that if Snowdog checked his little tickbox in NV X Server settings it's not ticked.

 

[Snowdog]

Personally, due to the fact that TOSLINK was released in 1983, I don't see any reason whatsoever for a legacy connection to be supported under Linux and my guess is that developers feel the same - TOSLINK doesn't even have the necessary bandwidth for HD audio formats and should be left to die a graceful death as one of the pioneers of digital audio.

Your posts are comedy gold. It's like satirical caricature of an extremely biased Linux apologist. Support in Linux for SPDIF passthrough is poor, well then it's old and useless anyway and developers should let it die. It kind of reminds me of your previous argument that all the games that weren't on Linux suck anyway. This is known as Sour Grapes.

In reality SPDIF is a widely used standard, present on practically every enthusiast motherboard today.

My guess is that if Snowdog checked his little tickbox in NV X Server settings it's not ticked.

More comic (willful?) incomprehension. It's almost as if you can't see where I pointed out (twice) that drivers for my older card don't have this option.

But I get it now. Satire. Anything wrong with a Linux install is the users fault.

So it's my fault for not clicking that option, that doesn't exist, in the 8800GT Linux drivers.

 

[BulletDust]

Your posts are comedy gold. It's like satirical caricature of an extremely biased Linux apologist. Support in Linux for SPDIF passthrough is poor, well then it's old and useless anyway and developers should let it die. It kind of reminds me of your previous argument that all the games that weren't on Linux suck anyway. This is known as Sour Grapes.

In reality SPDIF is a widely used standard, present on practically every enthusiast motherboard today.



More comic (willful?) incomprehension. It's almost as if you can't see where I pointed out (twice) that drivers for my older card don't have this option.

But I get it now. Satire. Anything wrong with a Linux install is the users fault.

So it's my fault for not clicking that option, that doesn't exist, in the 8800GT Linux drivers.

Right.

So we're complaining of legacy products now that in your opinion should be supported forever. I'm personally pissed off because none of the operating systems in question support composite out to my TV anymore and my Voodoo 2's performance sucks.

Come off it. If your GPU is too old to support a composition pipeline and your receiver is too old to support anything but TOSLINK how the hell can you blame the OS?

 

[Vermillion]

Right.

So we're complaining of legacy products now that in your opinion should be supported forever. I'm personally pissed off because none of the operating systems in question support composite out to my TV anymore and my Voodoo 2's performance sucks.

Come off it. If your GPU is too old to support a composition pipeline and your receiver is too old to support anything but TOSLINK how the hell can you blame the OS?

Wait...you're saying he should not worry about tearing on an 8800GT when even using the open source driver? KDE with Kwin is nothing but OpenGL. 8800GT can easily do that. I understand if the proprietary driver won't support it anymore (as stupid as that may be) but the open source driver should be able to do it easily. Especially when right now he could fire up Windows 7 or even Windows 10 on that video card and have a fully GPU accelerated desktop environment.

 

[BulletDust]

Wait...you're saying he should not worry about tearing on an 8800GT when even using the open source driver? KDE with Kwin is nothing but OpenGL. 8800GT can easily do that. I understand if the proprietary driver won't support it anymore (as stupid as that may be) but the open source driver should be able to do it easily. Especially when right now he could fire up Windows 7 or even Windows 10 on that video card and have a fully GPU accelerated desktop environment.

Nouveau is widely regarded as being complete garbage due to a lack of co operation in regards to Nvidia, if your card does not support propitiatory drivers and force composition pipeline due to age, you're stuffed. This is no different to the same card not supporting certain games or hardware acceleration features under Windows due to age and driver limitations.

 

[Snowdog]

Right.

So we're complaining of legacy products now that in your opinion should be supported forever. I'm personally pissed off because none of the operating systems in question support composite out to my TV anymore and my Voodoo 2's performance sucks.

I see, switching from over the top satire and fake incomprehension, to the comedy of silly analogies, well done.

Come off it. If your GPU is too old to support a composition pipeline and your receiver is too old to support anything but TOSLINK how the hell can you blame the OS?

An 8800GT is easily powerful enough to do the job which is why it would be interesting to see exactly where this solution breaks down.

Hell am putting together an OLD PC for a relative, with a 7300 LE OEM card (connected to my monitor right now), and Windows can still do silky smooth Window dragging with that. Some perspective on the those cards. The 7300LE has 5 GB/sec of memory bandwidth. The 8800GT has 57 GB/sec. That's right is more thant 10-1 in favor of the 8800GT. Something seems very much off if Linux can't handle window drags without jerking/tearing when Windows 7 does fine with a card 1/10 the capability.

Again. SPDIF is a good standard, still in wide use, very nice with TOS link because you can be sure to be clear of ground loops with no electrical connections. I like it, works great for me, still on almost every new enthusiast motherboard. It is not being abandoned. It was just always a massive PITA to get working in Linux.

What is it with the sudden Linux should abandon "old" equipment anyway? Doesn't that shatter the Linux myth of putting Linux on old HW to make run faster without "bloated" Windows:
http://www.ricksdailytips.com/replace-windows-with-linux/

 

[Snowdog]

That's amazing to me especially with as highly regarded as Nvidia's drivers have been for Linux. I'll have to go back to my older laptop and do some testing. It's an AMD A8 chip. I'll load up AMD proprietary drivers and see what happens under Mint. I know with Arch on XFCE and Compton it's completely fine with both the AMDGPU open source driver and the proprietary driver. I stopped using the proprietary drivers though (pain in the ass on Arch) with AMD when AMDGPU came out. Huge difference in performance with AMDGPU and the old xf86-video-ati driver.

I know it's comparing AMD to Nvidia but I'm just interested in why NVs drivers and their open source drivers are like that.

Yeah, I would really like to know where this breaks down, or how it might be resolved. From what I know AMD OS drivers are better than AMD closed source now, but for NVidia it is the other way around, so you are pretty much at the mercy of NVidias closed source drivers.

I don't know if that is the whole story. Maybe there is an OGL benchmark/test to run to see if it is really speeding things up or if some functions are missing.

 

[heatlesssun]

Nouveau is widely regarded as being complete garbage due to a lack of co operation in regards to Nvidia, if your card does not support propitiatory drivers and force composition pipeline due to age, you're stuffed. This is no different to the same card not supporting certain games or hardware acceleration features under Windows due to age and driver limitations.

True. Linux folks love to however generally state without specifics that Linux has better hardware compatibility that Windows but that's far too broad a claim to make. You'll never really know what works in these situations unless you can solidly confirm or figure it out with either Windows or Linux. There's far too many variables to make generalized statements about hardware compatibility. I grant that Linux probably should do better overall with older hardware but it's not guaranteed.

This is the thing that gets comical sometimes with these kinds of discussions. Anyone experienced with this stuff knows perfectly well "stuff happens". You fire up older hardware, install an OS, who the hell knows how it's going to work especially straight out of the box. No developer has the resources to go and test every piece of hardware that's ever existed with brand new software. And even if they did, that would only be adding effort for ever diminishing returns.

It's just practical common sense stuff. It's got nothing to do with any OS in particular, it's just the nature of how this kind of technology works.

 

[BulletDust]

I see, switching from over the top satire and fake incomprehension, to the comedy of silly analogies, well done.

Get over it you child.

An 8800GT is easily powerful enough to do the job which is why it would be interesting to see exactly where this solution breaks down.

No one's claiming it isn't!

The problem here is driver support and Nvidia make the drivers, not the developers! I can assure you that under Windows there will be games and possibly other software that the older drivers for your card will not support anymore, possibly even certain video codecs will not be supported terribly well anymore as your card is so old - It's over 10 years old! That's an eternity in computing terms!

Support for your card is long dropped, you can't blame the OS for that.

Hell am putting together an OLD PC for a relative, with a 7300 LE OEM card (connected to my monitor right now), and Windows can still do silky smooth Window dragging with that. Some perspective on the those cards. The 7300LE has 5 GB/sec of memory bandwidth. The 8800GT has 57 GB/sec. That's right is more thant 10-1 in favor of the 8800GT. Something seems very much off if Linux can't handle window drags without jerking/tearing when Windows 7 does fine with a card 1/10 the capability.

So can Linux Mint Cinnamon, if you disable desktop composition and use software rendering. I used software rendering on a Celeron T3100 and it ran just fine.

Again. SPDIF is a good standard, still in wide use, very nice with TOS link because you can be sure to be clear of ground loops with no electrical connections. I like it, works great for me, still on almost every new enthusiast motherboard. It is not being abandoned. It was just always a massive PITA to get working in Linux.

No one stated it wasn't a good standard, SPDIF is still supported in HDMI. The issue is that TOSLINK is legacy now, I have five PC's here, two have TOSLINK, three do not - It's fairly safe to assume that TOSLINK is on it's way out as a connection standard and the procedure to get 5.1ch bitstream under Linux may involve the terminal, but it's far from a complex procedure by any stretch of the imagination - All you're doing is installing a few libraries and editing a few files.

If dropping 5.1ch TOSLINK support means better development of the HDMI standard, I'm all for it - No good continuing support on a connector designed in 1983. Furthermore, electrical isolation may be a consideration, but considering clock jitter between digital devices you're effectively trading one negligable problem for another. However, if you absoultely must have 5.1 bitstream over TOSLINK it is entirely possible and not that hard for a [H] user to activate - Once activated it's entirely controlled via the GUI.

Once again, using composition pipeline under the Nvidia drivers on hardware that was released this decade my scrolling is spot on perfect. Using Intel iGPU's, and whatever driver I throw at them, spot on perfect.

 

[bigdogchris]

Starting with Vista, the GPU accelerated UI significantly helped Windows perform better when it comes to UI movement. I imagine a Linux distro with a similar interface would benefit the same way.

 

[BulletDust]

Starting with Vista, the GPU accelerated UI significantly helped Windows perform better when it comes to UI movement. I imagine a Linux distro with a similar interface would benefit the same way.

Not necessarily, Linux is not Windows.

 

[BulletDust]

True. Linux folks love to however generally state without specifics that Linux has better hardware compatibility that Windows but that's far too broad a claim to make. You'll never really know what works in these situations unless you can solidly confirm or figure it out with either Windows or Linux. There's far too many variables to make generalized statements about hardware compatibility. I grant that Linux probably should do better overall with older hardware but it's not guaranteed.

This is the thing that gets comical sometimes with these kinds of discussions. Anyone experienced with this stuff knows perfectly well "stuff happens". You fire up older hardware, install an OS, who the hell knows how it's going to work especially straight out of the box. No developer has the resources to go and test every piece of hardware that's ever existed with brand new software. And even if they did, that would only be adding effort for ever diminishing returns.

It's just practical common sense stuff. It's got nothing to do with any OS in particular, it's just the nature of how this kind of technology works.

Well said Heatlesssun, agreed.

 

[B00nie]

It's not the same thing, if you only have a SPDIF output from your PC. Then it is just one more thing that doesn't work in Linux.

SPDIF was specced way before multichannel audio. It was never designed to carry multichannel sound in the first place. It has been hacked to transmit compressed multichannel but it's not the solution you should use. If your hardware can't support HDMI audio you really need to upgrade your hardware.

 

[BulletDust]

SPDIF was specced way before multichannel audio. It was never designed to carry multichannel sound in the first place. It has been hacked to transmit compressed multichannel but it's not the solution you should use. If your hardware can't support HDMI audio you really need to upgrade your hardware.

Absolutely. TOSLINK was first designed for CD players and the only standard it passed was 2ch PCM.

[EDIT] It also passed the copy protection flag.

 

[Snowdog]

SPDIF was specced way before multichannel audio. It was never designed to carry multichannel sound in the first place. It has been hacked to transmit compressed multichannel but it's not the solution you should use. If your hardware can't support HDMI audio you really need to upgrade your hardware.

It's a perfectly fine solution for DTS/DD, in fact for some time it was the ONLY solution deliver DTS/DD digitally.

This is not a case of conscious decision to deprecate an older technology in LInux.

It is just a case of something that the Linux community tried, but never succeeded in getting to work well.