Linux Is Not A "Second String" Operating System

[heatlesssun]

I am tired of Microsoft coming out with an OS every 4 yrs and it would be nice to have a good OS that you just update over time.

Well there's a new Ubuntu every six months.

 

[pelo]

1 LTS version every 2 years. Neither do they push Unity onto you either, since you have a choice between Unity/Gnome classic/KDE/XFCE.

 

[Sixthsense]

Linux will never be mainstream until it is developed for idiots to use.

You obviously have not tried installing or using Ubuntu within a Windows partition. any simpleton that at least knows how to use a mouse and keyboard could get a dual boot machine within minutes with network already running via the Ubuntu windows installer

 

[heatlesssun]

1 LTS version every 2 years. Neither do they push Unity onto you either, since you have a choice between Unity/Gnome classic/KDE/XFCE.

That's still a more rapid release schedule than Windows and the Windows UI has always been forced, it's never been particularly configurable out of the box. Where was the option to turn off the Start Menu and use Program Manager?

 

[heatlesssun]

You obviously have not tried installing or using Ubuntu within a Windows partition. any simpleton that at least knows how to use a mouse and keyboard could get a dual boot machine within minutes with network already running via the Ubuntu windows installer

If people can't figure out how to use Windows 8 because the Start Button is gone I doubt they could do what you described.

 

[pelo]

How exactly is that a good thing...

My point was that when there's a significant change in the interface (Unity) the user is still able to choose the former familiar one or use a different one entirely.

 

[Max Mike]

Linux is more popular than Windows on embedded devices, smartphones, tablets, servers, and super computers.

Linux is the athlete who can do anything, while Windows comes in last place at the special Olympics.

Uh pay attention the context of the quote was desktop OSs and there Linux is a failure.

Yea I know its the "Year of Linux" again for the 13th straight year.

Be honest you always got picked last; right.


Thats a joke son a joke.

 

[heatlesssun]

How exactly is that a good thing...

I never claimed it was a good or bad thing, just that that's how it's always been in Windows. But the concerns of Windows on the desktop are different than Linux on the desktop, the main one being the far larger user base with the huge bulk of them not concerned about lots configurability in the UI.

 

[ccman]

I keep coming back to Linux. The longest I stuck with Linux and the most comfortable Linux distro for me was Fedora 3 or 4. When I first used Linux, I had problems figuring out which video chip I was using (I think ATi Rage128 was used for ATi Rage Pro), monitor resolution and refresh rates, and sound. Recently, I've been having problems with video and wireless. On both machines I tried to run Linux, I have problems with Realtek wireless devices. One problem video adapter is Via Chrome9, the other is Intel GMA 3600.

For Ubuntu and Linux Mint, my RTL8188CE only works for a few minutes then starts disconnecting and reconnecting to the wireless without sustaining an internet connection. CentOS doesn't detect it. I bought a TL-WN821N, and it works, Compared with Windows, YouTube videos aren't impressive without hardware acceleration.

I'd really like to use FreeBSD or OpenBSD (I'm fond of Unix), but their hardware support is even more challenged.

Where do you find a good platform or good components for Linux if you want to use WiFi and video acceleration? I'd like to experience Linux on a platform that helps it shine. It isn't hard to find a platform for Windows supporting video hardware acceleration and good wifi support.

 

[ccman]

If people can't figure out how to use Windows 8 because the Start Button is gone I doubt they could do what you described.

You could do it up through Windows XP SP1 (I think they removed progman.exe with SP2)

 

[ccman]

That's still a more rapid release schedule than Windows and the Windows UI has always been forced, it's never been particularly configurable out of the box. Where was the option to turn off the Start Menu and use Program Manager?

You could do it (change the shell to progman.exe) up through Windows XP SP1 (I think they removed progman.exe with SP2)

 

[/dev/null]

I keep coming back to Linux. The longest I stuck with Linux and the most comfortable Linux distro for me was Fedora 3 or 4. When I first used Linux, I had problems figuring out which video chip I was using (I think ATi Rage128 was used for ATi Rage Pro), monitor resolution and refresh rates, and sound. Recently, I've been having problems with video and wireless. On both machines I tried to run Linux, I have problems with Realtek wireless devices. One problem video adapter is Via Chrome9, the other is Intel GMA 3600.

For Ubuntu and Linux Mint, my RTL8188CE only works for a few minutes then starts disconnecting and reconnecting to the wireless without sustaining an internet connection. CentOS doesn't detect it. I bought a TL-WN821N, and it works, Compared with Windows, YouTube videos aren't impressive without hardware acceleration.

I'd really like to use FreeBSD or OpenBSD (I'm fond of Unix), but their hardware support is even more challenged.

Where do you find a good platform or good components for Linux if you want to use WiFi and video acceleration? I'd like to experience Linux on a platform that helps it shine. It isn't hard to find a platform for Windows supporting video hardware acceleration and good wifi support.

I've only had problems with 1 wireless card (the one in my x120e) doing that, so I blame the card.

If you want hardware acceleration you can no ati (fglrx is OK.....but not super easy to setup) or ati OSS (radeon driver works well except for 3D). If you go nvidia go nouveau or binary blob. Intel has good support for most of their chips except the newer onboard 1155 stuff and the one that they didn't make (gma950? May not be remembering right). Avoid matrox at all costs.

 

[Disposed]

Be prepared to take tablets off this list over the next year.

Not going to happen. If you think windows 8 tablets will outsell android tablets you have not been paying attention to the market much.

Tablet buyers want simplicity in an instant on device. Windows 8 comes close but not close enough. On top of that unless OEMs find a way to magically make windows 8 tablets with comparable hardware for the same cost as the android offerings it will be just like WP7 all over again.

 

[Disposed]

Hasn't id Software been using and promoting OpenGL long before there was a Valve?

Theres a BIG BIG difference. ID is just a dev, Valve is a dev, publisher and distribution platform.

A single dev pushing OpenGL isnt going to do a thing Valve on the other hand will change the industry as a whole with this move. So when i say valve is doing the ground work i think its a pretty accurate statement.

Theres also this.

Honestly though with more companies targeting Mac for games theres really no reason not to move over to openGL and no reason not to take the extra effort to port to linux. Direct X may have more features at the moment but if more devs and money moved over to openGL that wont last long anyway.

 

[c3141hf]

Theres a BIG BIG difference. ID is just a dev, Valve is a dev, publisher and distribution platform.

A single dev pushing OpenGL isnt going to do a thing Valve on the other hand will change the industry as a whole with this move. So when i say valve is doing the ground work i think its a pretty accurate statement.

Theres also this.

Honestly though with more companies targeting Mac for games theres really no reason not to move over to openGL and no reason not to take the extra effort to port to linux. Direct X may have more features at the moment but if more devs and money moved over to openGL that wont last long anyway.

More features?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZojsR4zwjt8

 

[wonderfield]

"OpenGL has tessellation, therefore it is equivalent."

Wish it worked that way. I really do.

 

[c3141hf]

"OpenGL has tessellation, therefore it is equivalent."

Wish it worked that way. I really do.

http://rastergrid.com/blog/2011/10/opengl-vs-directx-the-war-is-far-from-over/

 

[heatlesssun]

Not going to happen. If you think windows 8 tablets will outsell android tablets you have not been paying attention to the market much.

Tablet buyers want simplicity in an instant on device. Windows 8 comes close but not close enough. On top of that unless OEMs find a way to magically make windows 8 tablets with comparable hardware for the same cost as the android offerings it will be just like WP7 all over again.

I was thinking that the original post was referring to the count of desktop Linux in comparison to the other platforms mentioned. I don't think that Windows 8 tablets will have a hard time surpassing desktop Linux, if only 5% of Windows 8 devices sold over 2013 are tablets, that should surpass desktop Linux. As for Windows 8 tablet form factor devices sold versus Android tablets, I would imagine that Android tablets will sell a lot better but I think Windows 8 is going to be bigger than Android in the higher end. Android will no doubt rule the $200 and under category, but more expensive Android tablets that are not doing well against the iPad face yet another challenge with Windows 8/RT.

As for instant on, Windows 8 supports that just fine, the hardware isn't out yet that handles it optimally. And even with existing hardware like the Asus EP121 and Samsung Series 7 Slate, well, as you say, it's pretty close. I have both of these devices and put them in sleep and back out pretty much like a phone, literally they come out of sleep and are fully responsive in less than a second.

 

[wonderfield]

I think you missed my point. When you're working with any API, its feature equivalency to some other API isn't the end-all-be-all. It may be a deciding factor in certain cases, but not in many.

Like I said, I wish it was just as easy as saying "OpenGL does this, therefore it's on par with Direct3D". In certain respect that's true. In other respects, it could not be further from.

 

[ccman]

Is Dell's announcement that they're working on and will be releasing an Ubuntu developer laptop this year good news or indifferent? Dell launching Sputnik

I know OEMs have released Linux laptops before. Lately, I've been interested in buying a OEM supported laptop running Linux, and the specs and options on the mentioned XPS13 sound great to me.

 

[heatlesssun]

Is Dell's announcement that they're working on and will be releasing an Ubuntu developer laptop this year good news or indifferent? Dell launching Sputnik

I know OEMs have released Linux laptops before. Lately, I've been interested in buying a OEM supported laptop running Linux, and the specs and options on the mentioned XPS13 sound great to me.

Looks like an interesting device, but as you noted this is a developer machine specifically for working with Linux cloud development, so pretty much not a consumer device.

 

[bh192012]

I think you missed my point. When you're working with any API, its feature equivalency to some other API isn't the end-all-be-all. It may be a deciding factor in certain cases, but not in many.

Like I said, I wish it was just as easy as saying "OpenGL does this, therefore it's on par with Direct3D". In certain respect that's true. In other respects, it could not be further from.

Do you have some examples of when "it could not be further from." I'm not a game programmer, so use laymans terms. Part of my curiosity here are things like the PS3, which does not have DX11, yet seems to have pretty fancy looking games. I have a feeling a DX developer will say it's too hard to use GL, and a GL programmer will say it's too hard to use DX.
Then there will be a 3rd group who makes games for many platforms using DX9 and GL who says meh, our games look good enough.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Do you have some examples of when "it could not be further from." I'm not a game programmer, so use laymans terms. Part of my curiosity here are things like the PS3, which does not have DX11, yet seems to have pretty fancy looking games. I have a feeling a DX developer will say it's too hard to use GL, and a GL programmer will say it's too hard to use DX.
Then there will be a 3rd group who makes games for many platforms using DX9 and GL who says meh, our games look good enough.

In today's cross-platform world you'd think OpenGL would be king...

 

[ccman]

The linked article rambled a lot, but I found the phrases used interesting (italics mine):

What I am doing is speaking to the choice of operating system (OS) for gaming and Linux should not be a second string OS to any of the ones currently available.

Anyway, my point here is that Linux shouldn't be a gaming OS afterthought.

Linux isn't some second rate OS that can be tossed aside by software companies because it isn't "mainstream."

I don't see much meat or vigor in any of these points. The first two quotes are just his opinions, not facts or observations about current conditions. My observation is for most, Linux currently is second string as a choice for a gaming operating system and is currently a gaming OS afterthought for most. Being primarily a Windows user, I would agree that Linux is not a second rate operating system, but the argument could be made that most software companies currently toss Linux aside because it isn't mainstream, with the exception of App developers who develop for tablet and phone devices.

 

[MavericK]

but the argument could be made that most software companies currently toss Linux aside because it isn't mainstream, with the exception of App developers who develop for tablet and phone devices.

They don't "toss it aside" because it's not mainstream, they toss it aside because it doesn't support most of the Windows-specific software they use. Not only that, but also the cost to train employees to use it who have been using Windows all their lives.

I guess in some ways you could say that's because it's "not mainstream", but that's the real reason it's not widely adopted in the general business sector.

 

[jedijeb]

The only game I still play is Star Wars Galaxies on the Emulator site SWGEmu. I actually tried it this week on a laptop I use for running Linux. I was very surprised to find that while running the game all four cores were running at about 30% load compared to when running it under Windows 7 where it only uses a single core. I am not sure what the difference is, but it seems that somehow Linux/Wine is splitting out the threads where Windows 7 won't. Not sure how this works for other games, but maybe Linux does have a chance at doing a better job.

btw I am using Linux Mint 13 KDE which is ported from Unbuntu 12 I believe. Now that I can play this I may just do away with Windows all together since that is all I was using it for, everything else I do is on Linux.

 

[jedijeb]

They don't "toss it aside" because it's not mainstream, they toss it aside because it doesn't support most of the Windows-specific software they use. Not only that, but also the cost to train employees to use it who have been using Windows all their lives.

I guess in some ways you could say that's because it's "not mainstream", but that's the real reason it's not widely adopted in the general business sector.

I picked up the Linux Mint 13 KDE version recently and really unless you are a power user you don't notice that much difference between it and Windows. For the average user out there that is doing mainly email, web browsing and a few typed documents the interface is pretty much the same for either. You have a KDE icon in the same place the Start button is on Windows which opens a start menu that is only slightly different from the Windows version in that it separates out programs by type ( Games, System, Office, ect). The look and feel are similar in most of what you do. Honestly I found getting to system setting easier in Linux than when I first started using Windows 7 because they are not hidden in new cryptic places that force you to use the Search feature to find things that should be easy to find.

If game developers and hardware vendors will put a little effort behind Linux to get the graphics and performance on par with Windows I would switch and never look back.

 

[MavericK]

I picked up the Linux Mint 13 KDE version recently and really unless you are a power user you don't notice that much difference between it and Windows. For the average user out there that is doing mainly email, web browsing and a few typed documents the interface is pretty much the same for either. You have a KDE icon in the same place the Start button is on Windows which opens a start menu that is only slightly different from the Windows version in that it separates out programs by type ( Games, System, Office, ect). The look and feel are similar in most of what you do. Honestly I found getting to system setting easier in Linux than when I first started using Windows 7 because they are not hidden in new cryptic places that force you to use the Search feature to find things that should be easy to find.

Gotta disagree, and many of the customers that we pushed to use Linux at the PC repair shop I used to work at disagree as well (owner was real big on Linux, kept saying it was the "next big thing" and in 5 years "all PCs would be Linux"... ). I'm not saying it's vastly harder or different but if you're used to Windows it's still not that simple to just pick up and go on it. Even using Ubuntu.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's kind of hard to understand how people think about this. One on hand you here people say how easy it is for people who have basic needs to switch to Linux and I do agree with that to some extent. But then you hear people say just how amazingly difficult it will be for people to switch to Windows 8 from Windows 7 even and Windows 8 is nearly 100% functionally backwards compatible with Windows 7 that runs exactly the same desktops apps. That certainly isn't the case with any distro of Linux.

Ultimately it all boils down to how willing and able one is to adapt. If a person can learn to adapt to Linux coming from Windows 7 they can more than likely adapt to Windows 8 as easy or even easier.

 

[Jagger100]

Well, I just installed Ubuntu for the first time just a week ago. The last time I played with anything Linux was back around 2004 and got frustrated with it due to drivers.

Anyways, I find Ubuntu much better and was surprised at how user friendly it has become over the many years. I would definitely say Linux has became much better over the years and would suggest that companies put more funding into this, than into Windows 8. I played with Windows 8 a bit and if microsoft keeps its pattern, Windows 8 will suck where windows 9 will be totally awesome..

That's unfortunately people are judging their opinions of Linux today from trying it out 8+ years ago. And if they try it recently, if it gives them the least bit of trouble, the immediately have a flashback to linux from 8+ years ago.

It is improving at a snails pace, but there will be a point where it is good enough for home use. That's when Windows' days in the home are numbered.

 

[Jagger100]

It's kind of hard to understand how people think about this. One on hand you here people say how easy it is for people who have basic needs to switch to Linux and I do agree with that to some extent. But then you hear people say just how amazingly difficult it will be for people to switch to Windows 8 from Windows 7 even and Windows 8 is nearly 100% functionally backwards compatible with Windows 7 that runs exactly the same desktops apps. That certainly isn't the case with any distro of Linux.

Ultimately it all boils down to how willing and able one is to adapt. If a person can learn to adapt to Linux coming from Windows 7 they can more than likely adapt to Windows 8 as easy or even easier.

It isn't a matter of hard. Its a matter of wasting time learning a new system while paying for the priviledge to do it. With Linux, if you're able to make the switch work, you save yourself a chuck of money from that point forward.

 

[4saken]

It isn't a matter of hard. Its a matter of wasting time learning a new system while paying for the priviledge to do it. With Linux, if you're able to make the switch work, you save yourself a chuck of money from that point forward.

save a chunk of money if you are willing to only use products that are about 25% as good as commercial alternatives.

eg gimp/etc/etc/etc.

inevitably you end up severely compromising and spending more time convincing yourself it was worth it to make the switch. For me, i use linux everyday at the workplace because it makes sense from the beginning for our jboss applications, email systems, etc etc.
Unless you are really hard on to save 100 bucks then there is no real good reason for an end user consumer to use linux over windows.

 

[Jagger100]

save a chunk of money if you are willing to only use products that are about 25% as good as commercial alternatives.

eg gimp/etc/etc/etc.

inevitably you end up severely compromising and spending more time convincing yourself it was worth it to make the switch. For me, i use linux everyday at the workplace because it makes sense from the beginning for our jboss applications, email systems, etc etc.
Unless you are really hard on to save 100 bucks then there is no real good reason for an end user consumer to use linux over windows.

I think you missed the whole home word. For people at home who use a PC to just surf, shop, e-mail and do taxes, $100 is probably important because they have a $300 laptop to begin with.

 

[pelo]

save a chunk of money if you are willing to only use products that are about 25% as good as commercial alternatives.

eg gimp/etc/etc/etc.

inevitably you end up severely compromising and spending more time convincing yourself it was worth it to make the switch. For me, i use linux everyday at the workplace because it makes sense from the beginning for our jboss applications, email systems, etc etc.
Unless you are really hard on to save 100 bucks then there is no real good reason for an end user consumer to use linux over windows.

if by 25% as good as you mean 95% as good, sure.

The advanced features lacking in the free alternatives Office or Photoshop are hidden away and your average user will never see them nor need them. Apparently Microsoft is also going the way of Cloud web-based Office so look for Office on Linux soon.

Further, those same programs cost a boatload of money. If you're spending $200 on Office or hundreds on the Adobe suite then the money spent for windows doesn't look so bad. OTOH, if you're not spending that much money for that software (aka, pretty much everyone) and you don't need the features and won't use them (pretty much everyone) then the free alternatives offered on Linux and Windows are great.

 

[4saken]

if by 25% as good as you mean 95% as good, sure.

The advanced features lacking in the free alternatives Office or Photoshop are hidden away and your average user will never see them nor need them. Apparently Microsoft is also going the way of Cloud web-based Office so look for Office on Linux soon.

Further, those same programs cost a boatload of money. If you're spending $200 on Office or hundreds on the Adobe suite then the money spent for windows doesn't look so bad. OTOH, if you're not spending that much money for that software (aka, pretty much everyone) and you don't need the features and won't use them (pretty much everyone) then the free alternatives offered on Linux and Windows are great.

you are delusional if you think the free alternatives are 95% as good. Even the most basic user would notice how crappy gimp is compared to PS. Office suites on Linux are atrocious. Thats pretty accepted. When more is in the cloud, then i can start to see more people moving to it, but dont expect all of those offerings to be 'free' either.

 

[pelo]

you are delusional if you think the free alternatives are 95% as good. Even the most basic user would notice how crappy gimp is compared to PS. Office suites on Linux are atrocious. Thats pretty accepted. When more is in the cloud, then i can start to see more people moving to it, but dont expect all of those offerings to be 'free' either.

Don't stop. Give us some examples of what a "basic user" would be missing in GIMP and OpenOffice/LibreOffice.

 

[heatlesssun]

It isn't a matter of hard. Its a matter of wasting time learning a new system while paying for the priviledge to do it. With Linux, if you're able to make the switch work, you save yourself a chuck of money from that point forward.

Attainment costs are typically very small piece of the pie with software TCO. If that weren't true then Linux should have wiped out Windows years ago. In the late 90's many Linux backers thought that the rise of Linux on the desktop was inevitable because it was "free". The reality is nothing is free unless people are willing to work for free.

And Microsoft seems to be responsive to pricing for consumers this time. The cost of Windows 8 should work out to be about $1 per month per machine for the life of product assuming a 3 year flagship life for 8.

Wiping one's ass after shitting costs more. Windows 8 might be shit but it is cheaper than shitting.

 

[wrugoin]

In my opinion, this is a catch-22

Here is how I see it. Game developers are in the business of making money for their work. They want to keep the lights on, pay their employees and make enough profits to continue funding future game development and if they're lucky, pay their shareholders.

If making a game Linux compatible consumes additional resources (time, energy etc...) by X%, they will make the game Linux compatible if they can expect an increase in sales that's greater than X%

The catch-22 lies in the theory that developers will start making more games Linux compatible if more gamers used supported Linux.... and more gamers will support Linux when more developers make their games Linux compatible.

But what the hell do I know.... I work in insurance. LOL

 

[Jagger100]

Attainment costs are typically very small piece of the pie with software TCO. If that weren't true then Linux should have wiped out Windows years ago. In the late 90's many Linux backers thought that the rise of Linux on the desktop was inevitable because it was "free". The reality is nothing is free unless people are willing to work for free.

And Microsoft seems to be responsive to pricing for consumers this time. The cost of Windows 8 should work out to be about $1 per month per machine for the life of product assuming a 3 year flagship life for 8.

Wiping one's ass after shitting costs more. Windows 8 might be shit but it is cheaper than shitting.

Everyone keeps saying this like the $50 upgrade:
a) can be used as a standalone product not requiring a Win7 disc (sources anyone?)
b) will last beyond the stated Jan 2013 time limit.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

So many experts in here.