Linux Is Not A "Second String" Operating System

[wonderfield]

I can't speak for everyone, but the last time I set up Ubuntu, I wasn't missing any hardware drivers. Things appeared to work properly.

Didn't exactly do any in-depth testing, but at first glance everything appeared to be normal.

 

[SkribbelKat]

I was going to ask about the state of video and soundcard drivers for Linux. I last tried Linux a few years ago and it was an absolute fucking nightmare hunting down all the parts necessary to get everything working, and I am not computer illiterate.

What is truly need for Linux gaming is not only developer support, but Linux drivers for hardware that are just as good as their Windows counterparts.

Confirming that drivers are still a pain in the behind to get. It's probably marginally better in the last few years with many systems being built from different vendors with basically the same hardware thanks to tighter integration of components. Intel and AMD's stuffing graphics processors into the CPU die simplifies that a lot and there are fewer serious contenders in the hardware market. I'd say its less that Linux driver support is getting better and more that there are fewer possible variations of hardware than there were before because the ecosystem of companies making products has shrunken a lot in the last decade.

 

[Ducman69]

Linux isn't some second rate OS that can be tossed aside

Uhhh yeah it is, and that is exactly what happens.

You can't expect businesses to cater to the 1%, they cater to the 99% as these are for profit companies. Its not about "fairness" and equal representation, its all about the benjamins (uhhhn).

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I can't speak for everyone, but the last time I set up Ubuntu, I wasn't missing any hardware drivers. Things appeared to work properly.

Didn't exactly do any in-depth testing, but at first glance everything appeared to be normal.

Agreed.

The majority of hardware just works upon install.

I'd say for most people a Ubuntu install will be much less painful than a Windows install, as you don't have to hunt down any drivers. They all come with the install disk, and are auto-detected and installed when Ubuntu is installed.

For those who have hardware that isn't supported off the bat though, it can become a little trickier, and require some more knowledge to get working properly.

 

[heatlesssun]

Agreed.

The majority of hardware just works upon install.

I'd say for most people a Ubuntu install will be much less painful than a Windows install, as you don't have to hunt down any drivers. They all come with the install disk, and are auto-detected and installed when Ubuntu is installed.

For those who have hardware that isn't supported off the bat though, it can become a little trickier, and require some more knowledge to get working properly.

For basic stuff like audio, video, networking, Linux distros have work pretty well for the last decade for that stuff, as well as Windows. Where the problems come are for thinks like Bluetooth, enhanced keyboard and mouse drivers, those types of things. And in those situations at least there's a Windows driver TO hunt down.

 

[Azhar]

Linux is exciting in its own right, but definitely not because of its capacity for gaming.

I'm really not sure linux gaming would really take off anyways. Not everyone running Linux wants to spend money on games for it in the first place. The same could be said of Windows users, but there's many, many more Windows users than Linux users.

perhaps, but as others said, if games were created in cross-platform OpenGL, developers wouldn't need to cater to specifics. One game with only different binary executable for each platform and call it a day. Let users chose, be it Windows, Linux, PS3, OSX and so on.

 

[soulesschild]

Isn't DX so dominant because Microsoft pushes it so hard and gives it out for free for developers or gives them monetary incentive to use it?

 

[wonderfield]

perhaps, but as others said, if games were created in cross-platform OpenGL, developers wouldn't need to cater to specifics.

There are many other coverage points besides the rendering API, though, and Direct3D is quite popular for a very good set of reasons.

Things are never quite as easy as they might seem.

 

[wonderfield]

Isn't DX so dominant because Microsoft pushes it so hard and gives it out for free for developers or gives them monetary incentive to use it?

I'm not aware of any monetary incentives to use it. Microsoft does have people that do actually reach out and assist devs, though, which isn't something the Khronos Group has. It's mandatory for Games for Windows certification as well.

 

[DocFaustus]

Agreed.

The majority of hardware just works upon install.

I'd say for most people a Ubuntu install will be much less painful than a Windows install, as you don't have to hunt down any drivers. They all come with the install disk, and are auto-detected and installed when Ubuntu is installed.

For those who have hardware that isn't supported off the bat though, it can become a little trickier, and require some more knowledge to get working properly.

Correct when most of your hardware is older and mostly standard.

Getting that new X-Fi sound card to work was a bear, as was my Conical Minolta color laser printer. (I gave up before solving either of these)

Also adding hardware after the install was a bear especially if you didn't understand the concept of mount like with hard drives. And don't bother asking for help on that last one, linux forum introverts are not known for their customer service skills

Personally, I install whatever is the popular flavor of linux every few years, enjoy it for a few weeks, marvel at the awesomeness of it all and then uninstall it and plug my windows drive back in. I am, at the heart of it, a hardware junkie (why I love [H]), but Linux doesn't seem to play nice with whatever gadget / tech catches my interest next.

 

[Disposed]

Thats an old game based off a modified OpenGL engine (ID tech 2) which uses dated DX9 (not 11), that they spent months and months optimizing back to OpenGL. Developers aren't going to bother spending months and months one each title, to sell to 5 people.

Valve have Steam propping up their asses so they can spend time doing non buisness sense things, other developers, not so much.

The big point you are not grasping is if the game was made for openGL in the first place it dont need any changes once the framework is in place. OpenGL games can target windows, mac and linux in one shot all they need is to make installers for each platform, Making games on direct x is windows only.

It wouldnt take months and months going forward if developers just used openGL. The best part about that is if some dev team wants to add a feature to openGLor tweak for performance etc. just make it and send it upstream. Want to add something cool to direct X too fucking bad.

You can make arguments all day long about how valve is "being stupid" but from a business perspective putting the effort into OpenGL development is a much better idea in the long run compared to being tied to microsofts locked down direct X api.

OpenGL has its downsides to direct X but once devs start using it and taking it seriously that wont last long at all thanks to the open source nature.

Valve doing all this groundwork will open the floodgates for linux and a lot of haters will see just how wrong they where when it blows up.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I'm not aware of any monetary incentives to use it. Microsoft does have people that do actually reach out and assist devs, though, which isn't something the Khronos Group has. It's mandatory for Games for Windows certification as well.

Well, the quicker "Games for Windows" dies a horrible, horrible death, the better off we all will be.

It is the worst messed up POS ever, and needs to go.

I don't buy any games retail or on Amazon anymore for fear that one of them may just require "games for Windows". Now I am all Steam.

 

[Max Mike]

He is right Linux is not second string Linux is that pathetic kid that sits the bench all year tries real hard and when he gets his one play that year he chokes.

 

[xX_Jack_Carver_Xx]

With this industry move to Cloud shit and rent-a-software garbage, Linux may be the last best chance to keep our computing and our data in individual hands.


I don't know about you but I fear a future where I rent "word" by the minute (with ever increasing fees) and my data and private information has to sit on some cloud ripe tobe hacked or stolen.... all to make Microsoft et al a few more buck$.

Fuck that shit.

So we should all actively support Linux, even if we do still hve to use Windows/Mac for things. Remember, Mr Potter's not selling, he's buying, because we're over a barrel and he isn't..... don't get over a barrel people.

 

[Stone Cold]

The only thing that holds developers back from doing Linux ports is DirectX. Bring DirectX support to Linux, and it would be super easy to compile it to run on Linux and Windows with very little change in code.

Any Windows game ported to OS X is already practically Linux compatible. And, it's not a big job to port a DirectX game to Linux. But, there's no Linux game market, so any cost to port is too much.

Valve's Linux support is probably preparation for a Steam Box game console.

 

[Unknown-One]

You'd be surprised...

I'm not surprised at all...

They're comparing DirectX 9.0 (which has remained largely unchanged since 2003) to a modern version of OpenGL. Of course the OpenGL version of the graphics engine is going to be faster under those circumstances (on both Windows and Linux).

DirectX 9.0 has known issues with CPU overhead and other performance bottlenecks that were sorted out in DirectX 10, 10.1, and 11. I'd bet money that a native DirectX11 version of the source engine would outperform the OpenGL version they have on Linux/Windows now.

 

[Unknown-One]

Well, the quicker "Games for Windows" dies a horrible, horrible death, the better off we all will be.

Quick clarification here, since this mistake is made all too often...

There is NOTHING wrong with "Games for Windows," which is simply a certification you can apply for if your game meets certain requirements from Microsoft. There is no additional software or accounts involved, it's just a label.

"Games for Windows: Live" is the moniker that denotes the GFWL software has been rolled into the game as well, which is the thing everyone complains about.

 

[blackhand1001]

The big problem with gaming on Linux is that there are so many different distros that do so many things differently that game developers would have to have several different builds to get them to work with "Linux". Keeping up with bugs on a Windows build alone is trouble enough. Trying to work out the bugs on 5 different Linux builds on top of it? That would cost a fortune.

this is where steam comes in. Install steam and steam will handle installing the games.

 

[Galvin]

Desktop flatlined because the market got saturated. People don't need to upgrade cause a desktop computer can last 10 years and run all software for office use no problem. People buying tablets I think are not people dropping their desktop, its just another device they're using.

Its good steam is doing this. MS needs some real competition. If blizzard jumped on the bandwagon it would be huge since they have a crap ton of users. Activision doing something similar would help a ton too. I don't care if linux is harder to use, if it became a viable gaming platform it means we're not stuck under just MS anymore and have a choice.

 

[Jagger100]

Linux doesn't have to be as slick as Windows. It just as to be slick enough.

Right about now the more user friendly versions of Linux are comparable to somewhere between Window 3.1 & Windows 95 level of hassle.

Linux keeps plodding along, it will get to say Windows XP level eventually. And I'd say even before then, it will reach the "good enough" stage. No additional features, that can't be absorbed by Linux, will matter to home users. Once that happens, Linux is dead in the home unless Microsoft pulls more serious anti-competitive practices against PC makers forcing them to sell Windows with a machine regardless.

 

[daglesj]

I mention to customer they can have a new PC with Linux on it and it will only cost the price of the hardware. I tell them it will browse the web, do email, Facebook and Ebay just fine.

But no they ask me to put Windows on at extra cost.

You cant give Linux away....(kinda)

Only once have I rolled out Linux to a customer. That was a group that look after kids that schools expel, they had 10 old Dell desktops that had had the Windows licenses removed.

So to keep costs down and to put the kids of installing all and sundry we went with Ubuntu.

We got the machines up and running fine. The only pain was getting the old laser printers they had working over the network. That was an experience I don't want to go through again.

Anyway the kids use them...begrudgingly. I have since supplied them with three re-con XP Pro machines and you cant get the kids off them. The Linux machines just sit there, even though they are using the same browser stuff on the XP machines.

 

[dandirk]

I installed Ubuntu once, maybe 2 years ago.

I thought the package manager was awesome, except for the fact I had very little clue what was going on, clicked on one thing and 10 others were checked. Mystery names of dependencies etc.

While I didn't have any hardware issues after install (for basic desktop computing), I also generally don't have driver issues with Win7 either, maybe a videocard driver update to play games.

One of the things that really really bugged my about ubuntu was network setup. Mapping a drive, sharing a drive was a commandline, text editing adventure on par with a monty python movie. I was shocked that I had to download an app to get a very basic GUI to setup SMB, Was shocked again when I had to install SMB server.

What I took out of it was, simple everyday necessary things on linux (networking/file sharing) took text editing, installing to get things to work. Windows, just open a gui and click, check, and fill in a few things and done.

Everything was rough around the edges like an alpha and designed by and for linux gurus. Not for "users"

 

[Stone Cold]

Linux keeps plodding along, it will get to say Windows XP level eventually.

The best Linux distro is not as slick as Windows XP. But, a newbie can't even get to that near-Windows XP experience without a lot of help.

Back in Windows XP days, you could go with Windows and get XP, a brainless exercise. It came on your computer. Easy.

On Linux, you have to sort through countless distros (most being crap) which you don't know anything about unless you have some expertise. So, you randomly pick a popular distro, then when you go to download it, you have pick between several Desktop Environments, again you have no clue which to pick. And, once you pick one, then you have to manage to install it. Then you have all these cryptically and abrasively named programs. And, even when you pick the best all the way, it's still a lousy experience and you'e plagued with wonder if there aren't better versions. It's completely retarded.

Most of this is so simple to fix, but Linux nerds don't want Linux to be a viable PC OS.

 

[daglesj]

You spend ages researching the best distro to install, you install it.

You then ask for help going a little deeper into the world of Linux.

You installed the the wrong distro.

What a noob!

You switch off that PC/Laptop and the fire your Windows PC back up and carry on.

 

[BladeVenom]

He is right Linux is not second string Linux is that pathetic kid that sits the bench all year tries real hard and when he gets his one play that year he chokes.

Linux is more popular than Windows on embedded devices, smartphones, tablets, servers, and super computers.

Linux is the athlete who can do anything, while Windows comes in last place at the special Olympics.

 

[Unknown-One]

Linux is the athlete who can do anything

Jack of all trades, master of none...

The places where I see Linux do REALLY well are all places where it has been customized heavily to do one specific thing. My Linux router does a great job of being a router, I set it up and I never have to touch it, it just does its thing and stays out of my way, FANTASTIC!

When Linux tries to be a do-everything desktop OS, it always seems to fall flat. Even Android feels kludgey to me, you can still tell it's Linux underneath.

 

[nOrVow]

When Linux tries to be a do-everything desktop OS, it always seems to fall flat. Even Android feels kludgey to me, you can still tell it's Linux underneath.

cool.

i feel the same way about windows

 

[wonderfield]

Well, the quicker "Games for Windows" dies a horrible, horrible death, the better off we all will be.

Games for Windows is just a certification program. Most games you buy are probably certified Games for Windows games.

You're probably referring to Games for Windows Live. That's a different thing entirely.

 

[Unknown-One]

cool.

i feel the same way about windows

I don't understand your comment

 

[Stone Cold]

Linux is more popular than Windows on embedded devices, smartphones, tablets, servers, and super computers.

Linux serves as a platform for the OS of many consumer devices, but that Linux foundation is irrelevant to home users. E.g. Android is built on Linux but it isn't Linux.

 

[heatlesssun]

Linux is more popular than Windows on embedded devices, smartphones, tablets, servers, and super computers.

Be prepared to take tablets off this list over the next year.

 

[c3141hf]

I installed Ubuntu once, maybe 2 years ago.

I thought the package manager was awesome, except for the fact I had very little clue what was going on, clicked on one thing and 10 others were checked. Mystery names of dependencies etc.

While I didn't have any hardware issues after install (for basic desktop computing), I also generally don't have driver issues with Win7 either, maybe a videocard driver update to play games.

One of the things that really really bugged my about ubuntu was network setup. Mapping a drive, sharing a drive was a commandline, text editing adventure on par with a monty python movie. I was shocked that I had to download an app to get a very basic GUI to setup SMB, Was shocked again when I had to install SMB server.

What I took out of it was, simple everyday necessary things on linux (networking/file sharing) took text editing, installing to get things to work. Windows, just open a gui and click, check, and fill in a few things and done.

Everything was rough around the edges like an alpha and designed by and for linux gurus. Not for "users"

I don't know how Ubuntu does it but in KDE, SMB is point and click, including sharing.

The best Linux distro is not as slick as Windows XP. But, a newbie can't even get to that near-Windows XP experience without a lot of help.

Back in Windows XP days, you could go with Windows and get XP, a brainless exercise. It came on your computer. Easy.

On Linux, you have to sort through countless distros (most being crap) which you don't know anything about unless you have some expertise. So, you randomly pick a popular distro, then when you go to download it, you have pick between several Desktop Environments, again you have no clue which to pick. And, once you pick one, then you have to manage to install it. Then you have all these cryptically and abrasively named programs. And, even when you pick the best all the way, it's still a lousy experience and you'e plagued with wonder if there aren't better versions. It's completely retarded.

Most of this is so simple to fix, but Linux nerds don't want Linux to be a viable PC OS.

First off, I would disagree that the desktop environments on GNU/Linux are not as "slick" as on Windows.

My KDE desktop gives the Mac a run for the money. Everything is hardware accelerated (something Microsoft is only now adding in Windows 8) with the OpenGL QT backend. I can scroll through images in the file browser smoothly, without any stuttering or jerkiness like in Windows. Icons seamlessly move around and resize. I have an Expose like feature that runs smoothly and it even runs smooth with the software rendering mode.

This video provides a good demonstration : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ZFrrM9Zro

Confirming that drivers are still a pain in the behind to get. It's probably marginally better in the last few years with many systems being built from different vendors with basically the same hardware thanks to tighter integration of components. Intel and AMD's stuffing graphics processors into the CPU die simplifies that a lot and there are fewer serious contenders in the hardware market. I'd say its less that Linux driver support is getting better and more that there are fewer possible variations of hardware than there were before because the ecosystem of companies making products has shrunken a lot in the last decade.

My experience is the exact opposite. In the Linux world, almost all drivers aside from OpenGL and printers are part of the mainline kernel and thus, there is no need to hunt down drivers on the internet. As an example, with our Windows computers at work, I always have to keep a USB key around with the various network drivers; with the Linux kernel, all of that support is built right in.

For basic stuff like audio, video, networking, Linux distros have work pretty well for the last decade for that stuff, as well as Windows. Where the problems come are for thinks like Bluetooth, enhanced keyboard and mouse drivers, those types of things. And in those situations at least there's a Windows driver TO hunt down.

I'm not sure what specifically you are referring to. evdev handles auto-configuration of input devices and it works seamlessly for me without having to resort to editing any configuration files. In addition, the touchpad drivers are far better than what Windows has; the ALPS touchpad drivers are absolutely lousy on Windows. The XOrg synaptic drivers on GNU/Linux provide ALPs touchpads with several features (such as scrolling that works) that are only normally avilable on Synaptic touchpads on Windows. I also have the ability to tune more settings on the touchpad than I do on Windows.

Bluetooth works out of the box for me. Bluetooth support is challenging because Bluetooth card manufacturers engage in the unethical practice of requiring a proprietary firmware to be loaded into the hardware everytime the computer boots up. Reverse engineering these things can take time and you can hardly fault the kernel developers for the unethical actions of the hardware manufacturers. That being said, support for Bluetooth has vastly improved and the common adapters are supported.

There are many other coverage points besides the rendering API, though, and Direct3D is quite popular for a very good set of reasons.

Things are never quite as easy as they might seem.

Microsoft has more money than the OpenGL ARB.

Correct when most of your hardware is older and mostly standard.

Getting that new X-Fi sound card to work was a bear, as was my Conical Minolta color laser printer. (I gave up before solving either of these)

Also adding hardware after the install was a bear especially if you didn't understand the concept of mount like with hard drives. And don't bother asking for help on that last one, linux forum introverts are not known for their customer service skills

Personally, I install whatever is the popular flavor of linux every few years, enjoy it for a few weeks, marvel at the awesomeness of it all and then uninstall it and plug my windows drive back in. I am, at the heart of it, a hardware junkie (why I love [H]), but Linux doesn't seem to play nice with whatever gadget / tech catches my interest next.

There is no customer support because you are not a customer. People often state that the GNU/Linux community is hostile or unfriendly, but the reality is, the majority of those instances arise from people (mostly Windows users) coming in and demanding support from the developers as if they were a customer.

Please understand that the majority of GNU/Linux distributions are made by volunteers who do so on their own time. I often see people come in to the forums or mailing lists, post a question and then cop an attitude when they don't get a response in three hours. Because you are not their customer, they are under no obligation to put up with that kind of childishness. If you are respectful and don't make demands, you will find people willing to help you. If you come in, start going on about how "this distribution sucks" because you didn't get an immediate response to your question or because the developers haven't dropped everything to help you, you will get flamed.

There are professional support options available for GNU/Linux that provide the kind of support you are more accustomed to getting in a Windows environment. Canonical sells Ubuntu support for less than the standard price of Microsoft Windows. There are other companies that sell GNU/Linux support as well. If you truly need answers right away, and you need people who will prioritize your needs, this is what you should be purchasing. But please don't expect volunteer developers to drop everything they are doing and act as your personal support agent for free.

No, bad, wrong direction, Bring OpenGL up to DX11+ standards and get people to use it, that is how you get games on linux and ios at the same time as windows.

OpenGL is already up to DirectX 11 standards, complete with support for hardware tessellation.

Unfortunately we live in the real world where developers need to feed their families. We don't waste time on fledgling platforms like linux. This is the same reason that android blows D and why so many game developers work with iOS as a priority and android as an afterthought.

If you took off the Visual Studio/Microsoft training wheels, you'd find that it is not as difficult as it sounds to write a cross platform application. Before Microsoft's monopoly, cross platform applications were the norm. UNIX, in fact, originated from the need to have an operating system that was portable to multiple computer architectures. Most difficulties in making cross platform applications arise from people's insistence on using proprietary, non-standard APIs such as Direct3D.

 

[ccman]

Pick one. That easy.

You're also exaggerating the issues. Linux, all of Linux, is based off of one kernel. That's what defines a Linux OS. The difference is mainly in the package management and GUI, which really don't affect game developers much at all.

"Porting" would be something like Windows desktop to Windows Metro. That would require a complete port, recompile, and a whole lot of work because they're essentially two different OSes. Linux, regardless of the distro, all runs off the same kernel and is very similar for game developers.

I'm no defender of Windows 8, but Windows 8 and Windows RT are the same kernel. They are both Windows NT-based. It is my understanding that the true kernel of Microsoft Windows on the NT line is a subset of ntoskrnl.exe, but I think of the Windows kernel as being a few files, like ntoskrnl.exe, hal.dll, kernelbase.dll/kernel32.dll.

Windows CE/Windows Mobile/Windows Phone were real time OSes and were different than Windows on the desktop. The big change Microsoft is making is now Windows on the tablet, on the phone, and on the desktop will all be Windows 8-based (NT-based). It is my understanding that Metro is a design philosophy and UI, where Windows RT is the new API and what some people mean when they refer to "Metro". Windows RT is not Win32, but it runs on top of the same kernel in Windows 8. Albeit a flawed metaphor, it's like saying KDE is a different kernel than Gnome, that GTK+ is a different kernel than Qt.

 

[CvP]

Yes, it is not a "second string" OS when it comes to gaming. It is "3rd 4th string."

 

[wonderfield]

Microsoft has more money than the OpenGL ARB.

Sure. That's hardly any kind of evidence that Microsoft is paying developers to use Direct3D, though.

 

[ccman]

Valve doing all this groundwork will open the floodgates for linux and a lot of haters will see just how wrong they where when it blows up.

Hasn't id Software been using and promoting OpenGL long before there was a Valve?

 

[Unknown-One]

This video provides a good demonstration : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ZFrrM9Zro

Yikes, that was... uh... interesting...

I had to make sure I wasn't looking at a video of Amiga OS 4.1, the UI looked that dated and ugly. So many disjointed design decisions and waaaay too much whitespace in desktop applications.

Also, why were all of the animations so darn slow? It took ages for everything to animate to its final position, especially that cube. He clicked on the desktop he wanted and then basically had to sit and wait while it slowly drifted in to fill the screen before he could continue...

 

[Deleted whining member 223597]

Linux will never be mainstream until it is developed for idiots to use.

I love how everyone who is not an expert/interested in programming/computers in general is an idiot.

 

[c3141hf]

Yikes, that was... uh... interesting...

I had to make sure I wasn't looking at a video of Amiga OS 4.1, the UI looked that dated and ugly. So many disjointed design decisions and waaaay too much whitespace in desktop applications.

Also, why were all of the animations so darn slow? It took ages for everything to animate to its final position, especially that cube. He clicked on the desktop he wanted and then basically had to sit and wait while it slowly drifted in to fill the screen before he could continue...

That wasn't a representation of the stock KDE desktop. The user who made that video enabled every single option; typically you either stick with the default interface (which is similar to Windows 7) or you pick one that you like; you don't select all of them at the same time.

The animations are slow because the user set them to be slow. You can configure the speed of animations in the control panel.

KDE can be themed if you don't like the default look.

 

[bmellis1984]

Well, I just installed Ubuntu for the first time just a week ago. The last time I played with anything Linux was back around 2004 and got frustrated with it due to drivers.

Anyways, I find Ubuntu much better and was surprised at how user friendly it has become over the many years. I would definitely say Linux has became much better over the years and would suggest that companies put more funding into this, than into Windows 8. I played with Windows 8 a bit and if microsoft keeps its pattern, Windows 8 will suck where windows 9 will be totally awesome.

I am tired of Microsoft coming out with an OS every 4 yrs and it would be nice to have a good OS that you just update over time.