Linux Is Not A "Second String" Operating System

[NKDietrich]

Blah blah. Every couple years this crap flares up again. Windows/DirectX has too much momentum and there isn't a financial motive for abandoning it as yet, and it won't happen until companies feel its worth their while to do.

Users have to make the first step. No company is going to create titles for a platform no one is using unless it happens to be convenient because of their particular code base, or because they happen to be Linux fanboys themselves. Start pumping up that Linux market share and you'll have a shot, otherwise, no chance in hell.

 

[pelo]

The stigma didn't create itself out of thin air, it's based on perceived reality.

Selling a couple thousand indie bundles doesn't compare to millions of copies of AAA PC titles sold.

Yet it says two things you're overlooking:

1 - That they're more than willing to pay money, and they paid more because they appreciate it more than do the users of other OSes.

2 - That you were wrong in your assumption and that the stigma isn't true.

 

[sboucher]

Wow, you guys really aren't getting it...

Andoid is Linux... How complicated is this. Millions of people are using it.

Valve is hiring extremely talented Linux programmers, they will be most likely be making their own Distro, which will come bundled with steam. The same way that Android comes bundled with "Play" (Android Market). It will be running on Valves Steambox hardware.

Seems simple enough to me..

 

[Ur_Mom]

For me, it's not the gaming aspect that I think makes it less attractive to some. It's that there are thousands of different distros. Even going with Ubuntu or Mint, you're still tied to the Debian way of doing things. Some guides show you the Red Hat way of doing things... Package management, updates, etc. get difficult when working with different versions. It's too segmented. I like Linux, it's a great OS, it's just not mainstream ready. And not just because of games.

 

[Koolthulu]

The worst thing about Linux is the user/support base. Just not a friendly place to be.

This. The first question I every asked on a Linux forum was also the last. I quit reading the thread when it hit 3 pages and every response was basically an insult.

And most How Tos are written by people that can't write a technical document, so they are usually more harmful than helpful.

Thankfully VMs let me play around with everything without any real danger of messing something up.

 

[face2palm]

It's the year of Linux!!!!!!!!!! (just like the last 20 years...lol)

So what if Valve develops for Linux. They're 5 games will surely destroy Windows.
Getting all the games on Steam to work properly on Linux will be impossible.

 

[gamerk2]

You'd be surprised...

Question: Are all the graphical features that exist in the Windows (DX) version being used, or are we talking at vastly reduced settings due to various kernal/driver incompatabilies?

So yeah, no context as to the results.

As a developer: We don't target linux because we can't make money on it.

Nevermind that everyone who runs linux that wants to game already does...through WINE. So wheres the incentive to make a "native linux" port?

 

[4saken]

pretty sure linux is at an all time low as far as relevancy on the desktop goes.

7-10 yrs ago it made a strong push then has basically gone nowhere. I only run linux in a VM, no reason to bother gaming with it.

 

[pelo]

Nevermind that everyone who runs linux that wants to game already does...through WINE. So wheres the incentive to make a "native linux" port?

Bypass the requirement for a "port." Most games are on a shitty near 10-year-old DX9 API anyway. Last I checked, openGL also runs on Windows.

 

[rand4505]

Forget the mainstream aspect of Linux OS for a moment and just realize that by Valve and other developers pushing OpenGL support first instead of a pure DX that games will then be easily portable to all three main OS's(Mac, Windows, Linux).

This in turn will drive Linux to become more user friendly as more developers will be willing to flesh out those flavors so that a point in click user will feel comfortable.

 

[devil22]

It's hard enough to make the games work on Windows, most developers are not going to try to support a 2nd and 3rd OS, when they amount to less than 1/10th of the users of the main platform. The increase in development time and resources, testing patches etc. is never going to be worth it for most of them. And what does using linux gain the average person? If they are ignorant enough to get malware on Windows, they will get it on linux. $100 every 3 years vs. free is not a huge deal. Only benefit I can see to linux is the software depositories, but why wouldn't malware writers just put malware in it like they do for the android store, and plenty of devs would not like the restrictions of the depositories so you'd have to get some software from the web, which puts you in the same situation windows is in today to a certain degree. And people would still try to warez which would be another reason for them to get software from non-depositories. It comes down to, you either have a walled garden ala iOS (which still isn't 100% safe), or you end up like the Windows community if you have enough users/developers..
Point is, there just is not enough benefit for the resources and energy it would take to switch everything over from Windows to linux, so I don't ever see it happening.

 

[pelo]

^^ This. If you want an audience then you should be using openGL in the first place. Unlike DX#, it isn't proprietary and there's a much bigger audience booming in the openGL market than there is in windows.

Tablets, anyone?

 

[DeathPrincess]

Ubuntu got hatred for choices they made in regards to the OS, and a lot of it from the change to Unity, not for being user friendly, and it's why mint is so popular now as the newbies desktop of choice... they took ubuntu and reversed the decisions people hated.

tho on the flip side myself i could never use a "user friendly" version of linux, but that's mostly because I tinker to much and enjoy the off beaten path like e17 for my window manager instead of the big boys kde or gnome.

Thats kind of a thing. People seem to choose Linux because they like doing certain things with an OS. Things which normal users don't care about so much, they just want stuff to be easy and work. But then they have a whole load of headaches from stuff they are used to using being a PITA to run. So for a "mainstream" user it doesnt make much sense. Especially as computers just come with WIndows, it works, and does everything they want, and has compatability with all their software. Windows does cost money, but as it's part of the entire cost of a system, it's virtually transparent. Plus if you offered someone a $50k cake and a free cake, which would you think was better? Especially as it is "Kubujasi and fjefgf" flavour.

THe Linux community doesn't like the "new guy". Which is kind of a problem as those are the ones who need support. It's 4133715705.

How is an old API on Linux any different than the majority of equivalently crappy old API DX9-based games released on Windows?

The point is that the performance is there and actually better than the Windows performance on an API that works on both platforms. It's to encourage use of openGL rather than a proprietary DX9, bypassing the need to port anything.

Thats 1 engine, which was previously OpenGL, running on an 300 year old API, not modern. Even most DX compatability layers struggle with DX11. Other engines, like for example Frostbyte 2.0, which is on a modern API (DX11) would be more of an acheivement, and more of a PITA to port. It's not like all of the other companies automatically could do it in a few months, so this one case could be more an exception than a rule and really proves, or disproves nothing. Especially as it isn' a recent engine, and probably one of the easiest, yet still took them considerable time, which might translate to 3x/4x+ more and stilll not work as good. Time the minute userbase of Linux probably doesn't make profitable.

It's difficult and unrealistic to take this one singe example and say "all current DirectX games can be converted to OpenGL and be slightly faster". Else why do all developers use DirectX in the firstplace if it gains them nothing?

Pretty much all Game engines are propriety. It makes 0 difference if they are on a propriety renderer or not. ID tech 5 is propriety and uses OpenGL for rendering.

LOL

http://www.linuxgamenews.com/post/18866254530/valve-steam-box-to-be-the-android-of-gaming

It's kind of weird that when you browse the "Linux gaming news" most the news isn't about games actually on Linux...

 

[sboucher]

Forget the mainstream aspect of Linux OS for a moment and just realize that by Valve and other developers pushing OpenGL support first instead of a pure DX that games will then be easily portable to all three main OS's(Mac, Windows, Linux).

This in turn will drive Linux to become more user friendly as more developers will be willing to flesh out those flavors so that a point in click user will feel comfortable.

Exactly!

Then stop to consider Valve developing a new Linux distro heavily integrated with steam / open gl / proper hardware drivers. Then giving it to various hardware manufacturers to build the Steambox. Just like that we have a new PC based consol on our hands.

 

[pelo]

Thats 1 engine, which was previously OpenGL, running on an 300 year old API, not modern. Even most DX compatability layers struggle with DX11. Other engines, like for example Frostbyte 2.0, which is on a modern API (DX11) would be more of an acheivement, and more of a PITA to port. It's not like all of the other companies automatically could do it in a few months, so this one case could be more an exception than a rule and really proves, or disproves nothing. Especially as it isn' a recent engine, and probably one of the easiest, yet still took them considerable time, which might translate to 3x/4x+ more and stilll not work as good. Time the minute userbase of Linux probably doesn't make profitable.

It's difficult and unrealistic to take this one singe example and say "all current DirectX games can be converted to OpenGL and be slightly faster". Else why do all developers use DirectX in the firstplace if it gains them nothing?

Pretty much all Game engines are propriety. It makes 0 difference if they are on a propriety renderer or not. ID tech 5 is propriety and uses OpenGL for rendering.

Yet people don't mind buying Skyrim on DX9 or MW3, do they?

My point was that you stated it's an historic API, and yes it is old, but so are a majority of DX-based games. DX9 is turning 10 years old soon and it's still the go-to API not because it offers great advantages but because it allows for older hardware to participate (and consoles). I don't understand what the difference is then between VALVe's HL2 engine on openGL and essentially every single "PC game" on the market.

Furthermore, it seems to me Microsoft could give two shits about PC enthusiasts. Didn't they just release windows 8 with Metro shoved down our throats? And we're debating the requirement of DX# as an API why exactly? When MS gave us a tablet OS that should have been enough of a signal to start looking elsewhere. That's exactly what VALVe and Steam are doing.

 

[wonderfield]

Pretty much all Game engines are propriety. It makes 0 difference if they are on a propriety renderer or not. ID tech 5 is propriety and uses OpenGL for rendering.

Proprietary. Jesus.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

If Linux had support for gaming, I wonder if more people would make the switch.

You'd be surprised...

That's really interesting.

Personally I prefer Linux for desktop use.

The only reason I even have Windows installed is because I need software that simply is not available in Linux, and I don't like the idea of using Wine, or some other emulation software in order to run it.

If the games I enjoy started to be available under Linux, that would be one less reason to keep Windows on my machine.

I'd still need:
- MS Office (Star Office and Open Office simply aren't good enough, though Crossover-Office works pretty damned well, even though I hate the concept of emulation)
- My Nikon RAW image format editor, Capture NX2. Gimp is pretty decent, but it pales in comparison to Capture NX2 it is terrible, especially in its RAW format handling through UFRaw.


Come to think of it., that's it. If the above two and my games worked well in linux, I'd never need Windows again!

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

You'd be surprised...

The key paragraph in the above link is this one:

This last point is interesting: Valve has long-standing relationships with AMD, Nvidia, and Intel, where Valve reports driver bugs and the GPU maker fixes them in a timely fashion. Valve is carrying this relationship over to Linux, which is very important for the continued growth of Linux as a gaming platform. In this case, Valve says that the Nvidia Linux driver lacked multithreading support — and once they added it to a later version of the driver, performance increased.

Valve is making Nvidia and AMD care more about their Linux development and actually fix driver problems.

That alone can be the change that breathes new life into Linux.

 

[Deffox]

The big three: XP, 7, Vista

Porting to Linux is a waste of developer dollars that few gaming companies can afford. It is a for profit industry.

 

[DeathPrincess]

Proprietary. Jesus.

Who cares.

 

[pelo]

The big three: XP, 7, Vista

Porting to Linux is a waste of developer dollars that few gaming companies can afford. It is a for profit industry.

Steam is realizing there won't be a "big three" if Microsoft diverts most of its attention away from the desktop.

Put all of the Linux issues aside for a moment and think ONLY about the current Windows/MS desktop arena.

Where is Microsoft headed and where will they be in 5-10 years?

The desktop is very clearly an afterthought for MS, so what hope is there for them pushing the boundaries with a DX12 or DX13? Or even providing incentive for users to upgrade to a newer OS?

What is the booming hardware atm?

Tablets are outselling PCs, both desktops and laptops combined. DX doesn't work on tablets and being Microsoft's proprietary baby, it would limit potential sales of games on that platform to only Microsoft tablets. Not good. openGL is supported on both Android and on iOS as well as Microsoft OSes due to good hardware compatibility across the spectrum (in comparison to only the desktop).

Steam's decision to head to Linux isn't a way to help the underdog. It's a business decision. They see that Microsoft is veering away from where Steam relies on business. They don't want to get the rug pulled out from under them. Further, with mobile hardware booming you need to embrace an open API in order to reach a larger number of potential customers (tablets).

 

[tesfaye]

Meh. All I know is that back in the day when I was really running Linux and Windows I would on occasion devote time to getting Windows games to work on Linux via Wine, and the games that ran successfully did so in a much smoother fashion than on Windows running the same hardware. I wasn't too concerned about frame rate at the time so I didn't try to measure it -- I was happy just to get the games running under Linux+Wine. I didn't read anything so suprising in that article.

 

[Thuleman]

Yet it says two things you're overlooking:

1 - That they're more than willing to pay money, and they paid more because they appreciate it more than do the users of other OSes.

2 - That you were wrong in your assumption and that the stigma isn't true.

You say that they appreciate it more (the indie pack). I actually agree with you but for a different reason. I think they appreciate it more because they are starved for gaming and with the indie pack being one of the few choices they dump some cash into it. Yet that cash is several orders of magnitude smaller than the cash a decent Windows game brings in.

Whether or not the stigma is true is a matter of debate really, I know plenty of OSS zealots (some I actually work with) who would rather spend months (or years) of their time monkeying with something as opposed to just buying an off-the-shelf product that works and runs under Windows.

In the end it doesn't matter whether the stigma is true, it only matters whether it is perceived to be true. Changing that perception is damn close to impossible simply because the most vocal OSS users fit the stigma perfectly. What you would need is "normal" OSS desktop users to speak up en mass but they just don't care enough and are happy to run Windows for their gaming after all.

 

[Nanan]

The only thing that holds developers back from doing Linux ports is DirectX. Bring DirectX support to Linux, and it would be super easy to compile it to run on Linux and Windows with very little change in code.

The video card drivers would have to take it up a notch though before this was feasable.

No, bad, wrong direction, Bring OpenGL up to DX11+ standards and get people to use it, that is how you get games on linux and ios at the same time as windows.

 

[face2palm]

Steam is realizing there won't be a "big three" if Microsoft diverts most of its attention away from the desktop.

Put all of the Linux issues aside for a moment and think ONLY about the current Windows/MS desktop arena.

Where is Microsoft headed and where will they be in 5-10 years?

The desktop is very clearly an afterthought for MS, so what hope is there for them pushing the boundaries with a DX12 or DX13? Or even providing incentive for users to upgrade to a newer OS?

Calm down, Chicken Little.

 

[DeathPrincess]

Yet people don't mind buying Skyrim on DX9 or MW3, do they?

My point was that you stated it's an historic API, and yes it is old, but so are a majority of DX-based games. DX9 is turning 10 years old soon and it's still the go-to API not because it offers great advantages but because it allows for older hardware to participate (and consoles). I don't understand what the difference is then between VALVe's HL2 engine on openGL and essentially every single "PC game" on the market.

Furthermore, it seems to me Microsoft could give two shits about PC enthusiasts. Didn't they just release windows 8 with Metro shoved down our throats? And we're debating the requirement of DX# as an API why exactly? When MS gave us a tablet OS that should have been enough of a signal to start looking elsewhere. That's exactly what VALVe and Steam are doing.

The flavour of DX is more to point out the dated nature of this engine, but still that isn't the point. The point is, one single example of some guys fiddling around for months and months to make some single engine is slightly faster in some silly single canned benchmark on a single set of slightly unrealistic hardware does no way equate to some rule that DirectX is slower then OpenGL. (especially as Sorce tends to be CPU limited). Nor does it equate that it's a lost cause and OpenGL is a joke. More that this equates to a whole lot of absolute nothing.

As exciting as it may seem to the 3 Linux desktop users on an atoll somwhere, this test will mean nothing to the people and companies that matter.

 

[Ashbringer]

Thats an old game based off a modified OpenGL engine (ID tech 2) which uses dated DX9 (not 11), that they spent months and months optimizing back to OpenGL. Developers aren't going to bother spending months and months one each title, to sell to 5 people.

Valve have Steam propping up their asses so they can spend time doing non buisness sense things, other developers, not so much.

That's because Valve still has a use for it's Steam engine, and they know that people will want games they are already comfortable with. Wouldn't be such a big surprise if L4D2 went free to play like Team Fortress 2.

If you read more carefully, they got a speed boost on Windows as well. It's just bigger on Linux. The point to be made is that performance on Linux isn't worse then Windows, and maybe actually better.

The big problem with gaming on Linux is that there are so many different distros that do so many things differently that game developers would have to have several different builds to get them to work with "Linux". Keeping up with bugs on a Windows build alone is trouble enough. Trying to work out the bugs on 5 different Linux builds on top of it? That would cost a fortune.

Most distros are based on big distros. For example Mint is really just Ubuntu or Debian, depending on which version you get. Mint Ubuntu is really the same as regular Ubuntu but with different applications and small changes here and there. I'm willing to bet that Steam will work just fine on Mint.

Because there's no money to be made. As a sweeping generalization open source zealots are not going to fork out $60 for a closed source game even if it runs on their beloved LOLnix flavor.

It's also a generalization that people who use Linux are just open source zealots. There's a lot of people out there who want to use Linux, but can't because their favorite game or software isn't on Linux. A lot of people like myself, just want their games to work on Linux and they'll make the switch.

Besides being open source and free, Linux has a number of advantages over Windows.

#1 No need for anti-virus.
#2 Extremely useful tools like Gparted are on Linux.
#3 No need to enter a cd key or worry about validation problems.
#4 Don't have to use an interface you don't like, cause you can always switch it.

It's the year of Linux!!!!!!!!!! (just like the last 20 years...lol)

So what if Valve develops for Linux. They're 5 games will surely destroy Windows.
Getting all the games on Steam to work properly on Linux will be impossible.

Some people may only play certain games, and Valve is trying to set an example and make it easier for developers to develop on Linux. Linux is also getting Serious Sam 3 so it's not like Valve's efforts aren't attracting attention. There's no telling if Blizzard won't do the same thing.

 

[DarkStar_WNY]

I like the idea of Linux and see it as a good thing.

It's just then when you need support and have to ask for help...like throwing yourself to the wolves. Not nice.

We always get told to "come on in the linux water is great!" and then when you do, you tend to get treated with disdain and contempt. Linux support material or tutorials always seem to not bother to include what would be the first two pages because they assume you have been using it for at least a year.

The worst thing about Linux is the user/support base. Just not a friendly place to be.

I now expect a ream of posts exactly proving my point.

Actually this post, quoted below, was about half a page ago is a perfect example of your point.

Linux will never be mainstream until it is developed for idiots to use.

As long as current Linux users act like total douches toward anyone not using it, or that are new to the Linux, it will never move beyond being a niche player in the field of OSes.

Sadly although they bitch and complain about the lack of support I think many of the users want it to remain a second string OS since it allows them to feel superior in the OS choice.

 

[TheBlueChanell]

If Valve can get DOTA2 and CS:GO working under Linux, I would gladly make the switch. Those two games take up probably 95% of my gaming time these days. The only reason I use Windows for my primary PC is because I play games. Out all my home machines, only one runs Windows and that's my gaming PC.

I would imagine Valve aren't the only developers porting or making games for Linux. Croteam has already spoken out in support of the move, I could see CD Projekt Red also in support of this. There's plenty of Indie developers that have probably made a pretty penny off of Linux users.

 

[pelo]

As exciting as it may seem to the 3 Linux desktop users on an atoll somwhere, this test will mean nothing to the people and companies that matter.

Unless they want to make some more money in currently untapped markets.

The new iPad had the biggest single impact on growth rates in the quarter, but Asus and Samsung made progress with their Transformer and Galaxy Tab product lines. Total tablet shipments increased 75% to 24 million units, representing 22% of all PCs.

The benchmark doesn't show anything other than what we should've already known: if you pay a bit of attention to the hardware/software then you'll get great gains out of it. The more telling fact is that Steam is transitioning away from relying on Microsoft and others, Blizz, SOE and others, aren't happy with Microsoft either.

 

[face2palm]

As long as current Linux users act like total douches toward anyone not using it, or that are new to the Linux, it will never move beyond being a niche player in the field of OSes.

Sadly although they bitch and complain about the lack of support I think many of the users want it to remain a second string OS since it allows them to feel superior in the OS choice.

Sadly this.

 

[heatlesssun]

Tablets are outselling PCs, both desktops and laptops combined. DX doesn't work on tablets and being Microsoft's proprietary baby, it would limit potential sales of games on that platform to only Microsoft tablets. Not good. openGL is supported on both Android and on iOS as well as Microsoft OSes due to good hardware compatibility across the spectrum (in comparison to only the desktop).

Tablets are not currently outselling PC laptops and desktops combined, there's still a ways before that happens and with the arrival of Windows 8 at least some of those tablets will be PCs. And DX does work on tablets.

The term tablet is becoming more and more meaningless as it really only refers to a form factor and has nothing really to do with a devices capabilities.

 

[faugusztin]

I think what you meant to say was "If developers and publishers thought they could make money on Linux ports, they would do it already."

Something isn't better just because it's open source.

Do you realize how wrong you/they are ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Indie_Bundle

By tracking pricing, Wolfire Games found that Linux users were the most generous, paying about US$14 per bundle, followed by MacOS X users (US$10) and Windows users (US$7–8).

 

[wonderfield]

Steam is realizing there won't be a "big three" if Microsoft diverts most of its attention away from the desktop.

Agreed. It's an unlikely outcome, and it's something that might take 15 years for the repercussions to really reverberate through everything, but it's not a bad idea at all for Valve to hedge their bets on Linux. A lot of the work they did on the OS X versions of Source and Steam are applicable to Linux as well, and Gaben himself is a big Linux proponent (for a former high-level Microsoft employee, that's interesting), so it's a sensible enough move for Valve.

 

[heatlesssun]

Do you realize how wrong you/they are ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Indie_Bundle

And yet Windows still was more than half the revenue according to the charts in that wiki link, and the total to date, $15 million? Over half which still came from Windows users?

 

[bcrisp82]

Whether or not you are a fan of Linux, this article has some very valid points and is certainly worth checking out.

Unfortunately we live in the real world where developers need to feed their families. We don't waste time on fledgling platforms like linux. This is the same reason that android blows D and why so many game developers work with iOS as a priority and android as an afterthought.

 

[SkribbelKat]

I luffs Linux and try my best to make up excuses to use it. Realistically though, there's very little it does well in the consumer market where gaming matters except where costs are concerned. Free is nice, but it's a lot more trouble to use than the average person will endure which limits its use to tenths of percent in overall households with enough excess income to consider gaming as a hobby. There are lots of hassle-free ways to play games and, aside from places like [H], no one really cares that much about using their computer to run a game. The device itself rarely serves that role.

Linux, like it or not, is a second (if that) string OS with lots of great uses outside of gaming, but a gaming platform it isn't for now. It needs a much larger base of installed systems and PC gaming needs to become a waxing rather than waning money pot. That's a lot of unlikely stuff.

 

[heatlesssun]

The bottom line is that Linux on the desktop is just never going to be a consumer product. Windows is simply too dominant on the desktops and desktop and laptop sales have flat lined and more and more consumers are going to tablets. Android is the future on Linux for consumers and should do well overall for years to come.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

You'd be surprised...

OpenGL being faster is well known; but I still have to wonder how many people think Linux is basically a command line OS with a useless GUI.

Sort of like the days of DOS 5.0 and windows 3.1.
You ran a few office apps with Windows; but you did a much of your computing in DOS.
I have heard many characterize it in this way and say "linux is for geeks only"
This is a total misrepresentation of the facts.

 

[BoogerBomb]

The only thing that holds developers back from doing Linux ports is DirectX. Bring DirectX support to Linux, and it would be super easy to compile it to run on Linux and Windows with very little change in code.

The video card drivers would have to take it up a notch though before this was feasable.

I was going to ask about the state of video and soundcard drivers for Linux. I last tried Linux a few years ago and it was an absolute fucking nightmare hunting down all the parts necessary to get everything working, and I am not computer illiterate.

What is truly need for Linux gaming is not only developer support, but Linux drivers for hardware that are just as good as their Windows counterparts.