LG 48CX

SH1

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Some new information regarding BFI, which it seems will be present in LG's 2020 OLEDs.

Via FlatPanelsHD: https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1579257548

"With its 2020 OLED TVs, Sony will introduce X-Motion Clarity, which is made possible by LG Display's upgrade to a functional BFI system (Black Frame Insertion). The system will continuously "scan" the OLED display, meaning that a dark bar will roll (at 120Hz) from the top to the bottom - rather than using fullscreen black frames. The intended purpose here is to cancel the human eye's inherent memory effect that is a primary source for the perception of motion blur on LCD and OLED TVs (with sample-and-hold driving). By using these scanning effects to constantly "reset the eye", moving images will appear sharper. The scanning effect of the new BFI implementation is also faster than most eyes can perceive so we avoid negative effects such as flickering or reduction in brightness.

...the 120Hz BFI system... was intended to be included in the 2019 models but was pulled in the eleventh hour. It will now make its debut in 2020 OLED TVs and we look forward to testing it as soon as we get our hands on review samples."

Here's a YT vid of the rolling BFI system on the LG 48CX:

So this new rolling bar motion solution of LG's...is it independent of input source and input frequency? Sounds like it might be a real game changer on that front.
 
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sharknice

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I knew most people underestimated the
So this new rolling bar motion solution of LG's...is it independent of input source and input frequency? Sounds like it might be a real game changer on that front.
Well they say it runs at 120hz so the source frame rate would have to be a factor of 120 for it to look good. It would be great if it was variable and you could use it with VRR. That's really the only significant upgrade they can make from here with OLEDs.
 

steal

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Remember that you always have the option to run these at 21:9 resolutions, so even though it'll be letterboxed, it won't actually be the full 48" size. You could just run these at 3840x1600 or something.
Annoyingly, HDMI 2.0 still does not have the bandwidth to support 3840x1600@120hz. Where the hell is HDMI 2.1?
 

defaultluser

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HDMI 2.0's bandwidth :p

You need to drop to 4:2:0 in order to do 3840x2160 8bit @ 120Hz over HDMI 2.0, with 4:2:2 you'd only be able to do 90Hz.
Sorry, I forgot about the bandwidth gained from Chroma subsampling options.

You do have that choice, though: for fast-paced games, you're unlikely to notice the drop in color fidelity of 4:2:0.
 
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Frameless

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3264x1836 using the new "GPU Scaling" option which is 0.85 of 4K + sharpening is the only sub 4K method I've found tolerable. Anything else whether using GPU/TV or integer scaling just looks utterly disgusting. The only way someone can say otherwise is if they sit 9FT away and even at that distance I can see how gross stuff within a few yards of your viewpoint in game become a disgusting blurry mess + all the aliasing everywhere.

I mean anything with any foilage (90% of games) looks terrible at anything but native 4K.

For as great a TV it is, in most cases when it comes to HDR gaming my PG27UQ provides an overall better experience. I find my C9 way too dim with HDR outside of letterboxed movies even with tonemapping turned on. The Asus has blooming galore in very dark scenes but it's way brighter and IMO has better colors.

I think 2021 is when the new generation OLED panels come which are suppose to reach 1000nits peak and 300nits full field.
1000 nits has already been reached by Panasonic and their special OLED backpanel cooling. RGB OLED will not change nits that much, but will make colors purer.
 

Armenius

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1000 nits has already been reached by Panasonic and their special OLED backpanel cooling. RGB OLED will not change nits that much, but will make colors purer.
The 2019 LG OLED are hitting close to 1000 nits peak brightness. I wonder if there is going to be any improvement with the 2020 series since they're apparently using an updated color filter.
 

gan7114

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The 2019 LG OLED are hitting close to 1000 nits peak brightness. I wonder if there is going to be any improvement with the 2020 series since they're apparently using an updated color filter.
That's interesting, I wonder if that'll have an improved effect on the color volume. IIRC, the 2019 OLEDs stood at around 85% DCI-P3 color volume, and a gamut around 96-97%.
 

Armenius

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That's interesting, I wonder if that'll have an improved effect on the color volume. IIRC, the 2019 OLEDs stood at around 85% DCI-P3 color volume, and a gamut around 96-97%.
Yes, according to the Rtings review. The new filter is supposedly to use less luminance to achieve the same color level to further reduce the risk of burn in. If that is the case then they should be able to get closer to 1000 nits. It will all depend on if LG adjusts the aggressiveness of ABL on whether or not we will see a real effective difference in HDR content.

upload_2020-1-23_13-5-19.png
 

bananadude

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Very keen for these to arrive... some unknowns, but literally nothing LCD based remotely interesting on the horizon, so I'm hoping this lives up to expectations. Have been very happy with my B9, so really it will just come down to how the choose to price the 48".
 

Pastuch

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So this new rolling bar motion solution of LG's...is it independent of input source and input frequency? Sounds like it might be a real game changer on that front.

I'm waiting for more evidence for how this BFI method works. It's very interesting though, I agree!
 

Pastuch

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Such feature may introduce flickering of the display, makes it dim and most likely breaks HDR support. So its awesomeness is quite limited.
Given that most new PC games don't support HDR I fail to see how that is even a factor. For FPS gamers we all put everything on the lowest settings anyway and are desperate for BFI because all our gaming happens at 120+ fps. Those of us with sweaty neckbeards anyway.
 

Armenius

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Given that most new PC games don't support HDR I fail to see how that is even a factor. For FPS gamers we all put everything on the lowest settings anyway and are desperate for BFI because all our gaming happens at 120+ fps. Those of us with sweaty neckbeards anyway.
You're assuming all "FPS" gamers are the same. HDR support in games is also becoming more common on PC. I don't think I've played a new PC game in the past year that didn't support HDR.
 

Pastuch

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You're assuming all "FPS" gamers are the same. HDR support in games is also becoming more common on PC. I don't think I've played a new PC game in the past year that didn't support HDR.
Good point, I want to win always so for me HDR is useless in FPS games. BFI on the other hand improves motion performance without increasing input lag so you can have that with 120fps+ enabled and everything on low. Anyone remember playing BF4 in night-vision mode all the time just to see people better. The things we do to win...
 
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tybert7

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The 2019 LG OLED are hitting close to 1000 nits peak brightness. I wonder if there is going to be any improvement with the 2020 series since they're apparently using an updated color filter.
Is there a source talking about an improved color filter for 2020 oled? I can't seem to find anything.
 

Pastuch

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Is there a source talking about an improved color filter for 2020 oled? I can't seem to find anything.
I can't find anything either. Maybe they are referring to this from the Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnar...d65cx-oled-tv-first-impressions/#2785d0f97779

Yet more clear improvement can be seen in the CX’s sharpness. Presumably due to LG’s new processing in conjunction with the improved color and contrast management, both native 4K and upscaled HD sources look significantly sharper and more detailed than they did on the C9. With no apparent unwanted side effects such as stressy lines or exaggerated grain.

In fact, the CX’s picture looks significantly cleaner than that of the C9, especially during dark scenes. Without being able to spend more time with the new TVs it’s hard to be sure whether this is down to general processing improvements, or specific near-black enhancements. But it’s certainly great to see. Especially as it’s happening alongside such significant improvements in brightness and color.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Call it 'shadow clarity' -- it's basically what LCDs are incapable of doing absent per-pixel backlight control. And that'd basically be MicroLED (or, generally how LG does OLED).

The solution for LCDs is to reduce dynamic range so that detail in the shadows isn't so dark and isn't so different from surrounding detail.
 

IdiotInCharge

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I would kill for a high refresh rate 27" oled but that will never happen.
Really just needs LG to build a smaller panel -- or Samsung to build a bigger one.


I assume that when they're ready to tackle that market, which means competing with or even supplanting their own LCD production, they'll flood it.
 

5150Joker

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Really just needs LG to build a smaller panel -- or Samsung to build a bigger one.


I assume that when they're ready to tackle that market, which means competing with or even supplanting their own LCD production, they'll flood it.
By the time that happens it'll be another 20 years and I'll be too old to care.
 

IdiotInCharge

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By the time that happens it'll be another 20 years and I'll be too old to care.
Could also be next year. Every component is developed except the desktop-sized panels, and that's just a function of someone setting up a production line or two.

Given that the Japanese and Chinese are working to challenge the Koreans in OLED production (and eventually MicroLED production), it could be sooner than we think. I don't really care who makes the panel if it isn't ass.
 
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sharknice

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The problem with OLED as a PC monitor is it's either too big (55" or soon 48" TV size) or it's too small (phone size).

Well the MicroLED will soon have the same problem but even more extreme. LOL
They have "the wall" microLEDs that are 100s of inches, and there's a company working on making 80" TVs.
Then you have the super tiny microLED displays that are just a few inches meant to be used as tiny HUD projectors or something.
 

5150Joker

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Could also be next year. Every component is developed except the desktop-sized panels, and that's just a function of someone setting up a production line or two.

Given that the Japanese and Chinese are working to challenge the Koreans in OLED production (and eventually MicroLED production), it could be sooner than we think. I don't really care who makes the panel if it isn't ass.
I think you're being too optimistic about how fast these guys will change. LCD manufacturing is still making them so much money that they won't have any incentive to move away for decades. The closest we'll probably come anytime soon in the next 5 years is a 32" OLED if we're lucky but I doubt we'll ever see a mass produced 27" high refresh rate one.
 

bananadude

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I think you're being too optimistic about how fast these guys will change. LCD manufacturing is still making them so much money that they won't have any incentive to move away for decades. The closest we'll probably come anytime soon in the next 5 years is a 32" OLED if we're lucky but I doubt we'll ever see a mass produced 27" high refresh rate one.

You do realise that Samsung, LG and Panasonic have all said they will be ceasing LCD production in the near future? This is predominantly due to falling prices and global oversupply of panels... so no, they are not making "so much money" from LCD.

Meanwhile JOLED have plans to bring smaller size high refresh OLED to the market. That could indeed be years away, but we shall see.
 

Lepardi

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You do realise that Samsung, LG and Panasonic have all said they will be ceasing LCD production in the near future? This is predominantly due to falling prices and global oversupply of panels... so no, they are not making "so much money" from LCD.

Meanwhile JOLED have plans to bring smaller size high refresh OLED to the market. That could indeed be years away, but we shall see.
PC monitors will probably be LCD still in in the 2100s because why not just keep milking it with non-existent QC lol
 

5150Joker

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You do realise that Samsung, LG and Panasonic have all said they will be ceasing LCD production in the near future? This is predominantly due to falling prices and global oversupply of panels... so no, they are not making "so much money" from LCD.

Meanwhile JOLED have plans to bring smaller size high refresh OLED to the market. That could indeed be years away, but we shall see.
Maybe for TVs but the subject here is PC monitors which we're going to continue to see LCD dominate for a long long time. I doubt Samsung/LG will bother with a 27" OLED TV anytime soon, the market doesn't want small TVs, everyone wants 60+" these days. I've never heard of JOLED so I don't have any hopes of them delivering.
 

bananadude

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I've never heard of JOLED so I don't have any hopes of them delivering.
Yeah, they were only founded by Sony, Panasonic and Japan Display (themselves formed by the merger of Sony's, Toshiba’s and Hitachi’s display businesses)... amateurs! :ROFLMAO:

Their focus is actually on inkjet-printed OLED, which would enable OLED to be produced at a lower cost (up to 30-50% cheaper compared to traditional evaporation), and with higher yields.

They have demonstrated a 4K 27" example... so it's on their roadmap. When it actually becomes a retail product and at what price though, we shall see, but there's no reason to think it won't happen. Their brand new mass production 5.5-Gen line facility has only just got up and running

LCD won't have the opportunity to dominate if and when OLED lands at desktop size, high refresh and with a sensible price... won't matter how many they're making at that point, it's game over. Same could be said of MicroLED of course, but that's MUCH further out, certainly in respect to desktop size products anyway.
 

5150Joker

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Yeah, they were only founded by Sony, Panasonic and Japan Display (themselves formed by the merger of Sony's, Toshiba’s and Hitachi’s display businesses)... amateurs! :ROFLMAO:

Their focus is actually on inkjet-printed OLED, which would enable OLED to be produced at a lower cost (up to 30-50% cheaper compared to traditional evaporation), and with higher yields.

They have demonstrated a 4K 27" example... so it's on their roadmap. When it actually becomes a retail product and at what price though, we shall see, but there's no reason to think it won't happen. Their brand new mass production 5.5-Gen line facility has only just got up and running

LCD won't have the opportunity to dominate if and when OLED lands at desktop size, high refresh and with a sensible price... won't matter how many they're making at that point, it's game over. Same could be said of MicroLED of course, but that's MUCH further out, certainly in respect to desktop size products anyway.
Sony and Panasonic haven't exactly been trailblazing in the TV world lately so I'll hold my breath waiting on mass produced gaming monitors by their venture. I've just learned to be cynical over all these empty promises we've had over the years so I hope this all comes true in the next year or two but somehow I doubt it. I also hope they don't only offer 4k for 27", no serious esports/fps people will buy that. If by 2021 they can bring in a reasonably priced 27" OLED at 1080p/1440p w/high refresh and little to no input lag, I'll gladly pay $1000 for one.
 

bananadude

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Sony and Panasonic haven't exactly been trailblazing in the TV world lately so I'll hold my breath waiting on mass produced gaming monitors by their venture. I've just learned to be cynical over all these empty promises we've had over the years so I hope this all comes true in the next year or two but somehow I doubt it. I also hope they don't only offer 4k for 27", no serious esports/fps people will buy that. If by 2021 they can bring in a reasonably priced 27" OLED at 1080p/1440p w/high refresh and little to no input lag, I'll gladly pay $1000 for one.

The point is they aren't a rank amateur start-up without some pedigree and no idea with what they're doing... they have experience and big money behind them, and a strong desire to bring product to market. We shall see how it all pans out, but for sure t's years away yet anyway. The best we'll have for the foreseeable future is LG's 48" OLED, which certainly ticks a lot of the boxes... in fact, if you could just shrink that down to 32" or 40", it would be the dream display for a lot of people.
 

kasakka

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Sony and Panasonic haven't exactly been trailblazing in the TV world lately so I'll hold my breath waiting on mass produced gaming monitors by their venture. I've just learned to be cynical over all these empty promises we've had over the years so I hope this all comes true in the next year or two but somehow I doubt it. I also hope they don't only offer 4k for 27", no serious esports/fps people will buy that. If by 2021 they can bring in a reasonably priced 27" OLED at 1080p/1440p w/high refresh and little to no input lag, I'll gladly pay $1000 for one.
I don't think these will be aimed at the competitive shooter crowd at all but everyone else. Personally I would rather have a 4K, 120+ Hz screen between 32-43" as I have zero interest in multiplayer shooters. More likely is that these just happen to be 120 Hz displays and not really designed to be gaming monitors in any capacity. LG is pretty much the only company that has really gone out of their way to make their TVs really better for gaming as they have improved input lag a ton over the years, got G-Sync working and been the first to add HDMI 2.1.

But afaik LG is also in the process of opening a new factory that will use inkjet printing so we might see those in TVs already next year at the earliest. I don't expect that there will be much price difference initially (to recoup factory costs and so on) but perhaps they will be able to add at least a 43" model to their lineup in the next few years. As it is LG is the sole manufacturer of OLED TV panels so it's no wonder the other manufacturers want their own facilities for better pricing etc.

38-40" would be my ideal OLED 4K screen but that seems unlikely to happen. Another option that would work is 8K displays at the 48" size. While 8K is an excessive resolution, it would allow for 4K integer scaled gaming but high PPI in desktop use, which would also eliminate the issue with low PPI large 4K screens where how you place them has more effect on how sharp they look perceivedly.
 

bananadude

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I don't think these will be aimed at the competitive shooter crowd at all but everyone else. Personally I would rather have a 4K, 120+ Hz screen between 32-43" as I have zero interest in multiplayer shooters. More likely is that these just happen to be 120 Hz displays and not really designed to be gaming monitors in any capacity. LG is pretty much the only company that has really gone out of their way to make their TVs really better for gaming as they have improved input lag a ton over the years, got G-Sync working and been the first to add HDMI 2.1.

But afaik LG is also in the process of opening a new factory that will use inkjet printing so we might see those in TVs already next year at the earliest. I don't expect that there will be much price difference initially (to recoup factory costs and so on) but perhaps they will be able to add at least a 43" model to their lineup in the next few years. As it is LG is the sole manufacturer of OLED TV panels so it's no wonder the other manufacturers want their own facilities for better pricing etc.

38-40" would be my ideal OLED 4K screen but that seems unlikely to happen. Another option that would work is 8K displays at the 48" size. While 8K is an excessive resolution, it would allow for 4K integer scaled gaming but high PPI in desktop use, which would also eliminate the issue with low PPI large 4K screens where how you place them has more effect on how sharp they look perceivedly.

JOLED's 22" monitor is actually very specifically aimed at gaming, being only 22-inch and 1080p, and they are calling it an eSports OLED gaming monitor, and it will be 144Hz. They are clearly looking towards the gaming market with their products. They talked of a 27" version also, although it isn't really clear if the 27" wlll be the same spec, and further details are sketchy at present. We may learn more this year as their factory is now up and running.

Anyway, the point is that they aren't looking to build a load of 60Hz business monitors here.

I have no interest in 27" either, but it is what it is and I'd say a step in the right direction.
 

sethk

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That rolling bar technique is pretty close to best case for a BFI technique. When done properly it looks better, it produces a better perceptual result for 'wiping' static display image retention, it requires less of a brightness hit, and it can scan at a frequency that's independent of refresh rate (assuming the electronics support it). Hope this is done well by one or both TV makers.
 
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I don't think these will be aimed at the competitive shooter crowd at all but everyone else. Personally I would rather have a 4K, 120+ Hz screen between 32-43" as I have zero interest in multiplayer shooters. More likely is that these just happen to be 120 Hz displays and not really designed to be gaming monitors in any capacity. LG is pretty much the only company that has really gone out of their way to make their TVs really better for gaming as they have improved input lag a ton over the years, got G-Sync working and been the first to add HDMI 2.1.

But afaik LG is also in the process of opening a new factory that will use inkjet printing so we might see those in TVs already next year at the earliest. I don't expect that there will be much price difference initially (to recoup factory costs and so on) but perhaps they will be able to add at least a 43" model to their lineup in the next few years. As it is LG is the sole manufacturer of OLED TV panels so it's no wonder the other manufacturers want their own facilities for better pricing etc.

38-40" would be my ideal OLED 4K screen but that seems unlikely to happen. Another option that would work is 8K displays at the 48" size. While 8K is an excessive resolution, it would allow for 4K integer scaled gaming but high PPI in desktop use, which would also eliminate the issue with low PPI large 4K screens where how you place them has more effect on how sharp they look perceivedly.
PPI isn't enough. There isn't much difference between the PPI on my 49" Samsung CRG9 and my 55" LG C9, but the CRG9 has much better text rendering. Something needs to be done about the pixel structure and/or the ClearType software.

I'm planning to try a 55" with an IPS panel and RGB pixels next. I've pretty much given up on the LG OLED for text use. I tried hard to live with it for the other benefits (gaming, videos) but text is just too important to me since that's what I do most of the time.
 

kasakka

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PPI isn't enough. There isn't much difference between the PPI on my 49" Samsung CRG9 and my 55" LG C9, but the CRG9 has much better text rendering. Something needs to be done about the pixel structure and/or the ClearType software.

I'm planning to try a 55" with an IPS panel and RGB pixels next. I've pretty much given up on the LG OLED for text use. I tried hard to live with it for the other benefits (gaming, videos) but text is just too important to me since that's what I do most of the time.
I don't have them side by side but just tried my 65" LG C9 running at 100% or 125% scale I didn't notice anything particularly off about its text rendering when trying multiple websites including this one. What should I be looking for?
 

N4CR

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The problem with OLED as a PC monitor is it's either too big (55" or soon 48" TV size) or it's too small (phone size).

Well the MicroLED will soon have the same problem but even more extreme. LOL
They have "the wall" microLEDs that are 100s of inches, and there's a company working on making 80" TVs.
Then you have the super tiny microLED displays that are just a few inches meant to be used as tiny HUD projectors or something.
Often get to see the latest and greatest large scale led walls. They are great and have brightness higher than any other display I've seen. Torch TVs don't come close, IF successfully heatsinked and shrunk they could dominate OLED from what I've seen.
But they are still to this day surprisingly complex beasts, requiring a crap load of wiring to run. Backs of large LED walls are like snake mating season.
The lithography approach appears to be working well for VR scale stuff (1kFPS, 4k, good colour, infinite black so far) and are so far developing on track. These are the future of VR as far as I can see, wicked scaling to higher resolution possible too..
The other is the much more common individual leds approach most of you are waiting for on the monitor side. They are slowly becoming more available and laptops are launching with them too now. I'd say the limitations are being worked through.. crazy complex wiring solution with thermal control if you want to drive it much.
 

Lepardi

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Sony and Panasonic haven't exactly been trailblazing in the TV world lately so I'll hold my breath waiting on mass produced gaming monitors by their venture. I've just learned to be cynical over all these empty promises we've had over the years so I hope this all comes true in the next year or two but somehow I doubt it. I also hope they don't only offer 4k for 27", no serious esports/fps people will buy that. If by 2021 they can bring in a reasonably priced 27" OLED at 1080p/1440p w/high refresh and little to no input lag, I'll gladly pay $1000 for one.
4K 27" would be a viable option with integer scaling being a reality nowadays.

While waiting for 4K to run at 144Hz, you can run the monitor at native 1080p, which is very decent at 27".
 

IdiotInCharge

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4K 27" would be a viable option with integer scaling being a reality nowadays.
I'd bet 150% would be fine for normal distance / human vision, and 200% wouldn't be intolerable for placement further away / poor vision, and it'd be sharp.


[I had my father get a 27" 1080p IPS from Dell a few years back to keep it comfortable to view, and for desktop use it is sharp and easy to read]


Separately, I have a 31.5" 4k VA panel that looks great at 125% scaling at normal viewing distances, and not bad at all at 150%.

I'll say in my experience that scaling in Windows has improved drastically in the last few years, to the point of being hard to criticize in terms of image sharpness versus native. I'll likely get around to checking the latest Linux distros and DEs in the near future for the same.
 
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