LCD Televisions with 4:4:4 Subsampling and low Input Lag.

[TYoda]

I just relayed the information and edited in a few things that could be a potential "stumping point" for some people that I inadvertently ran into.


How do you like your VR-3730 so far?

It all sucked until I got the 4:4:4 subsampling issue figured out

But so far I've only played a little bit of Mass Effect 3 earlier and I could tell that I was getting better black/white contrast over my old Westy LVM-37w3. Text looks decent too, at least on par with the old Westy as well if not a little better. Outside of that, I haven't done much with it. I have yet to play any blu-rays or xbox on it so I'll have to get back with you on those things.

 

[Racer_J]

It all sucked until I got the 4:4:4 subsampling issue figured out

But so far I've only played a little bit of Mass Effect 3 earlier and I could tell that I was getting better black/white contrast over my old Westy LVM-37w3. Text looks decent too, at least on par with the old Westy as well if not a little better. Outside of that, I haven't done much with it. I have yet to play any blu-rays or xbox on it so I'll have to get back with you on those things.

I figured you might not have done a lot with it but, I was just curious if you had goofed around with anything while you were trying to get the 4:4:4 working. I posted my settings for it a little over a week ago if you get bored or are curious about how anyone else has their's setup.

 

[arl]

I am wondering if my 37LK450 is a lemon, but am still trying to tweak the settings.

When I have it plugged into PC, there is about an inch border on top and bottom and 1.5 inches on the sides that are blank and unused. In TV mode this part of the screen works fine. Is this normal?

I am also having difficulty getting the text size right. at 1600 X 900 I have a custom text size DPI of 180%. I also have additional zoom set up in my browser. But when I open any other program (in javascript for example), it just seems too small.

 

[TYoda]

@Racer - is there a way to switch back and form between the 'Retail' and 'Home' settings? I'm just wondering if there is much of a backlight difference between the two. As I spend more time with the 3730, I'm finding it to be a bit dim for my liking. Would sure be nice to be able to manually mess with the backlight settings at all...you could on my old LVM-37w3 so this omission makes no sense.

 

[Racer_J]

I am wondering if my 37LK450 is a lemon, but am still trying to tweak the settings.

When I have it plugged into PC, there is about an inch border on top and bottom and 1.5 inches on the sides that are blank and unused. In TV mode this part of the screen works fine. Is this normal?

I am also having difficulty getting the text size right. at 1600 X 900 I have a custom text size DPI of 180%. I also have additional zoom set up in my browser. But when I open any other program (in javascript for example), it just seems too small.

That sounds like your video card is underscanning the video output as it's impossible to change the aspect ration on the VR-3730 when there is a DVI>HDMI signal on it. It automatically picks "standard" which appears to be 1:1 pixel mapping as long as the signal is 720p or higher.

Even at 1600x900 the image should fill your screen as it does on mine. The I/PQ (image/picture quality) is terrible for me at that resolution though and I would rather run it at the native resolution of 1920x1080 anyway.

Open up your ATi control center and make sure it's not trying to overscan/underscan/improperly scale your video signal. I'm not sure exactly how ATi labels those options but, you shoyuld know them when you see them.

As far as other program's font sizes are concerned, I will have to deffer you to someone else that has tried to alter them before. As far as I know the DPI setting you use should affect all of them but I'm not positive.

@Racer - is there a way to switch back and form between the 'Retail' and 'Home' settings? I'm just wondering if there is much of a backlight difference between the two.

I can switch back and forth but, I have never "unlocked" my TV with the channel tuner code from Westinghouse and that may be why. All I have to do to get back to the "setup" you see on the first power on is change the TV to the input/source named "TV" and the "setup" starts automatically. This could be a fluke that my TV is able to do this or it could be because I didn't setup the actual "TV" input. I did use the "startup" though to select "Home" then used it to configure Component (Y/PB/PR) 1, then played around with the TV menu. Later on I went back and changed it to "Retail" then did the same thing. Then later on I went back and changed it back to "Home" as it is what I preferred as the black levels were better with it.

It appears some people get locked to their initial choice based an a review or two but, I'm not sure why or how many people try to change it if they change their minds. If you are unable to change it or are concerned about getting locked to it if you do, you might want to try contacting Westinghouse and seeing what they have to say on the matter.

IIRC (because I have done a lot of trial and error eyeball tunes since then) the backlight difference was higher on the "Retail" setting but it was minimal and there was something about it that washed the black levels out to some extent compared to the "Home" setting. It's probably because "Retail" is meant to burn your eyes out and be shown in an over lit environment rather than in a more controlled setting where you want a "calibrated" image.

As I spend more time with the 3730, I'm finding it to be a bit dim for my liking. Would sure be nice to be able to manually mess with the backlight settings at all...you could on my old LVM-37w3 so this omission makes no sense.

I could not agree more on this. Backlight adjustment is critical for the overall levels and for fine tuning to personal preference when not caring about the overall levels. While I obviously loved the A-MVA panel in the DX-32L230A12, I have no doubt that the backlight adjustment played a role in how it handled the black level separation and lighting conditions of a scene. It certainly played a role in gamma correction. Why Westinghouse chose to omit this is beyond me and it leaves us all searching for a service menu in the hopes that we can adjust it in there.

 

[TYoda]

I can switch back and forth but, I have never "unlocked" my TV with the channel tuner code from Westinghouse and that may be why. All I have to do to get back to the "setup" you see on the first power on is change the TV to the input/source named "TV" and the "setup" starts automatically. This could be a fluke that my TV is able to do this or it could be because I didn't setup the actual "TV" input. I did use the "startup" though to select "Home" then used it to configure Component (Y/PB/PR) 1, then played around with the TV menu. Later on I went back and changed it to "Retail" then did the same thing. Then later on I went back and changed it back to "Home" as it is what I preferred as the black levels were better with it.

Awesome, this worked for me as well. However, as you've indicated earlier, the Retail mode really isn't worth bothering with. I don't think it even turns the backlight up any, just amps the brightness through the roof and washes out blacks...

I must admit that the dimness(to me) of this screen is bothering me a bit. Its not as bad at night when all the lights are off but its more evident during the day when other light sources are present. Hoping there is a service menu we can find out about at some point in the future.

 

[NoxTek]

Excuse me, folks, but I know a lot of people in this thread have the LG 42LK450 so I hope y'all don't mind if I ask a sort of off topic question:

Has anyone with the LG 42LK450 (IPS version) found that, when using it as a PC monitor text looks better at a sharpness setting of 40? At 50 which is what I would assume to be 'neutral' it actually seems to be still applying sharpness and text has 'halos' around it. For example the white text here in the forums has black halos around it ... almost like someone used the 'stroke' filter in Photoshop on each letter. I can't find my camera at the moment but as soon as I do I'll see if I can't get a good macro shot of what I'm talking about...

EDIT: In fact according to this page:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php

The optimal sharpness value for my set appears to be 37

 

[Racer_J]

Awesome, this worked for me as well. However, as you've indicated earlier, the Retail mode really isn't worth bothering with. I don't think it even turns the backlight up any, just amps the brightness through the roof and washes out blacks...

I must admit that the dimness(to me) of this screen is bothering me a bit. Its not as bad at night when all the lights are off but its more evident during the day when other light sources are present. Hoping there is a service menu we can find out about at some point in the future.

Yea I couldn't tell exactly what it was messing with but it definitely messed up the proportional ratios of the settings to one another. I just didn't care for the "Retail" mode at all.

What exactly are you finding to be dim on it? I'm also curious as to what settings you are using. I will agree that it's "brighter" at night at least when there is a sudden burst of light in dark scene or a transition from a dark scene to a light scene but, it's my understanding that this is a result of pupil dilation due to the room being so dark and it has me considering doing some ballast/bias lighting behind the TV as I find it rather painful at times.

Speaking of settings, the "User" setting can be "manipulated" if you change to something like "normal", "vivid", etc. and start adjusting from those rather than just switching it to "User" and then starting to make your adjustments. I know that sounds crazy, but I specifically started adjusting from the "Normal" one as I found it gave better results.

e.g. Switch to "normal" then pick any setting to adjust. This will send you to the "User" one but it will be using the "Normal" levels instead of the "User" levels.

I wish I had a better way to word that as it may not make sense until you "see" it. I bring it up because, if you may want to pick the brightest one of those and then make your adjustments from it.


Also my black levels have appeared to lighten up a bit. It could be that my eyes have just adjusted to it or I have become overly critical. It's probably a bit of both though combined with the variables of each piece of source material as different people do different calibrations on different hardware that they use to edit different source material.

e.g. The black levels are darker in "Casino Royal" (the 2006 remake) than they are in "Constantine". The black levels are woefully unacceptable (washed out) in "Constantine" but their appears to be a lack of detail in general on that DVD which means they either botched the DVD (480i) transfer or, it was poor set lighting. I had to drop the brightness around 7 clicks to the left from it's usual setting to get the black levels darker in "Constantine" but that was on the DV-250 and I haven;t looked at playback on the PC yet as I am waiting for night to get here so I can have similar lighting conditions.

I am playing around with the brightness setting on the TV and the gamma setting in the Nvidia control panel though to darken up the black levels. The Lagom Gamma test image is about where it was on the previous setting with the current changes (that I am waiting to post) with the added benefit of being very hard to distinguish between the black background here at [H]ard|Forum and that very thin border that separates the bezel from the display portion of the panel. The black levels aren't as dark as that strip and you can tell them apart when there is a gamma shift as the result of not being in the "viewing cone" or an actual viewing angle shift but they are darker than they have been.

One day they'll do a panel that can go deep on the black levels and isn't a victim of the "viewing cone" as it over inflates the levels within it. To be fair, it's probably more along the lines of everything outside of it can't "keep up" but there is something "artificial" looking about the levels in the "viewing cone".

 

[Racer_J]

EDIT: In fact according to this page:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php

The optimal sharpness value for my set appears to be 37

How I wish I could adjust the sharpness on the VR-3730 when using it as a monitor. The Nvidia control panel just can't quite bleed out enough of it.

That test page redefines how one considers the sharpness setting though. It's amazing how what you think looks good in a movie is usually far higher than it should be.

 

[arl]

That sounds like your video card is underscanning the video output as it's impossible to change the aspect ration on the VR-3730 when there is a DVI>HDMI signal on it. It automatically picks "standard" which appears to be 1:1 pixel mapping as long as the signal is 720p or higher.

Even at 1600x900 the image should fill your screen as it does on mine. The I/PQ (image/picture quality) is terrible for me at that resolution though and I would rather run it at the native resolution of 1920x1080 anyway.

Open up your ATi control center and make sure it's not trying to overscan/underscan/improperly scale your video signal. I'm not sure exactly how ATi labels those options but, you shoyuld know them when you see them.

As far as other program's font sizes are concerned, I will have to deffer you to someone else that has tried to alter them before. As far as I know the DPI setting you use should affect all of them but I'm not positive.

I have searched every option in the ATI control center, but cannot find anything.

When using the VGA cable, it fills the whole screen and text is sharper. I believe that it is passing 4:4:4 even without the EDID fix via VGA.

 

[Racer_J]

I have searched every option in the ATI control center, but cannot find anything.

When using the VGA cable, it fills the whole screen and text is sharper. I believe that it is passing 4:4:4 even without the EDID fix via VGA.

That's because VGA is a 4:4:4 signal. You're likely failing 4:4:4 over DVI>VGI because you are not running it at the native resolution of 1920x1080. Switch to that and then bump the DPI up if the text is to small.

When it comes to the black bars though around the 1600x900 resolution that is because the video card isn't scaling the resolution up to fill your screen. Try this and see if that will kill the black bar issue if you insist on using the 1600x900 resolution. Just keep in mind that you will most likely consistently fail 4:4:4 at that resolution because of how interpolation/scaling works.

 

[arl]

That's because VGA is a 4:4:4 signal. You're likely failing 4:4:4 over DVI>VGI because you are not running it at the native resolution of 1920x1080. Switch to that and then bump the DPI up if the text is to small.

When it comes to the black bars though around the 1600x900 resolution that is because the video card isn't scaling the resolution up to fill your screen. Try this and see if that will kill the black bar issue if you insist on using the 1600x900 resolution. Just keep in mind that you will most likely consistently fail 4:4:4 at that resolution because of how interpolation/scaling works.

I have the black bars when using DVI-HDMI at 1920X1080 as well. I am passing 4:4:4 tests over my DVI-HDMI at both 1600X900 and 1920X1080 since labeling the HDMI connection "PC". I tried the link you provided but the website is down.

VGA is working fine.

 

[Racer_J]

I have the black bars when using DVI-HDMI at 1920X1080 as well. I am passing 4:4:4 tests over my DVI-HDMI at both 1600X900 and 1920X1080 since labeling the HDMI connection "PC". I tried the link you provided but the website is down.

VGA is working fine.

Figures the website would be down. The "internet time machine" doesn't have a cache of the page either unfortunately.

With the black bars around the 1600x900 I can see it passing as it's a 1:1 ratio which is why the black bars are there. As soon as you manage to get it to fill the screen though, it will likely fail.

Speaking of which, to many people have to many different TVs and I'm starting to get the LG guys and the Westinghouse guys mixed up. Since you have a LG, that makes my previous comment about the aspect ratio being locked on the TV when it has a DVI>HDMI signal non-applicable. I believe the LG sets allow certain changes the Westinghouse sets don't with that signal and, I think the aspect ratio is one of them. Can you access the aspect ratio and overscan settings on your xxLK450' s menu?

 

[arl]

Figures the website would be down. The "internet time machine" doesn't have a cache of the page either unfortunately.

With the black bars around the 1600x900 I can see it passing as it's a 1:1 ratio which is why the black bars are there. As soon as you manage to get it to fill the screen though, it will likely fail.

Speaking of which, to many people have to many different TVs and I'm starting to get the LG guys and the Westinghouse guys mixed up. Since you have a LG, that makes my previous comment about the aspect ratio being locked on the TV when it has a DVI>HDMI signal non-applicable. I believe the LG sets allow certain changes the Westinghouse sets don't with that signal and, I think the aspect ratio is one of them. Can you access the aspect ratio and overscan settings on your xxLK450' s menu?

I see an option to change aspect ratio but not overscan from the LG menu.

I think I have it working now though. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling catalyst control center and now have overscan settings available (the newest CCC from AMD was not working at all on my system). Setting overscan to 0% in CCC seems to be working, although red and magenta text still does not seem quite as sharp as on VGA. I might still have to exchange my screen anyway, it is making an intermittent clicking noise when hooked up to PC. Thank you Racer_J for your help, I really appreciate it.

To the OP: aznxtc has reported that the new 2012 LG model CS560 (which replaces LK450) passes 4:4:4 chroma, and is supposedly guaranteed IPS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21773554

 

[Racer_J]

I see an option to change aspect ratio but not overscan from the LG menu.

I think I have it working now though. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling catalyst control center and now have overscan settings available (the newest CCC from AMD was not working at all on my system). Setting overscan to 0% in CCC seems to be working, although red and magenta text still does not seem quite as sharp as on VGA. I might still have to exchange my screen anyway, it is making an intermittent clicking noise when hooked up to PC. Thank you Racer_J for your help, I really appreciate it.

No problem, glad to hear you at least got the bars figured out. Now that the image is filling the screen, are which resolution are you using to try and pass 4:4:4 with?

I would also be concerned about the clicking noise as the only noise you should hear from a display is via the speakers or the various "electrical" noises certain displays tend to make. Can you tell where it's coming from?

To the OP: aznxtc has reported that the new 2012 LG model CS560 (which replaces LK450) passes 4:4:4 chroma, and is supposedly guaranteed IPS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21773554

That's pretty cool. I read that LG has removed the VGA port though. That just means phasing out VGA is starting to go into full effect though as DVI appears to be replacing it as the standard PC video connection. For sets that don't do 4:4:4 on HDMI though, that's going to hurt as people could at least fall back to VGA despite it being an analog signal. LG also added in more colour correction settings that will allow you to fix the luminance/colour temperature without needing to dig into the service menu.

That means the remaining stores carrying the xxLK450 series should be getting ready to flush their remaining stocks out to make room for the new line.

 

[DG25]

Is it me or 37" TVs are very rare these days?

 

[Racer_J]

Is it me or 37" TVs are very rare these days?

I haven't been looking but 32" TVs are also kind of rare at certain online stores right now. I've attributed it to being at the end of model closeouts and the beginning of new model roll-outs. It looks like there was a gap and a lack of an overlap at some places. Westinghouse has a 37" 2012 model coming out and I think LG does as well. I would imagine companies like RCA, Dynex. and Insignia will be doing so as well.

However, with the general attitude of "bigger is better", everyone is pushing the larger sets and introducing even larger ones. Even Westinghouse is doing a 70" LED TV ("120 Hz") this year. Their largest CCFL set will be 50" though. I don;t expect smaller sets to be completely phased out by anyone due to the needs of people that need them for smaller rooms, budget constraints, usage as monitors, etc. but the selection will probably not be as varied in the future as the larger sets get larger and the prices get "cheaper" by comparison.

 

[arl]

No problem, glad to hear you at least got the bars figured out. Now that the image is filling the screen, are which resolution are you using to try and pass 4:4:4 with?

I would also be concerned about the clicking noise as the only noise you should hear from a display is via the speakers or the various "electrical" noises certain displays tend to make. Can you tell where it's coming from?

I am using the recommended resolution, just increasing font sizes.

The clicking seems to be coming from the speakers. I am almost definitely going to have to exchange this set, but still need to research whether or not to switch to the 2012 models.

 

[DG25]

I haven't been looking but 32" TVs are also kind of rare at certain online stores right now. I've attributed it to being at the end of model closeouts and the beginning of new model roll-outs. It looks like there was a gap and a lack of an overlap at some places. Westinghouse has a 37" 2012 model coming out and I think LG does as well. I would imagine companies like RCA, Dynex. and Insignia will be doing so as well..

I'm from Europe and all those tv makers are not present here. 32" tvs are plenty, but 37" are very rare, at least newer ones from Sony/Panasonic/Samsung and even LG. LG has only one new model with lamp backlight and that's it. I wanted something with LED, very slim and energy efficient, but no luck.

 

[Racer_J]

I am using the recommended resolution, just increasing font sizes.

The clicking seems to be coming from the speakers. I am almost definitely going to have to exchange this set, but still need to research whether or not to switch to the 2012 models.

I've no idea what could be causing the "clicking". Are you feeding the TV any audio signal at all from the PC?

The 2012 LGs sound promising especially given that they can do 1:1 pixel mapping on the HDMI, Component (Y/PB/PR), and RF signal according to the tech specs (as long as it's a 1080p/1080i/720p signal). I'm surprised it's selling at $399.99 considering the price of the 32LK450 was $425.99+. That's goig to have to get a price slash soon as Best Buy still has them and has gotten the 32CS560 now. The menu on the 32CS560 looks incredibly detailed but I've no idea what the 32LK450 menus contains. The Gamma and Gamut settings caught my eye though as did the white balance, black level and a slew of others.

I'm tempted to return the VR-3730 and throw my wallet into the cash register but, the VR-3730 has a lot more inputs, I've finally got the black levels dark (especially during the day), and I know what to expect out of this set. It would be a gamble to move to another set at this point especially one using an IPS panel as all I ever hear are the black levels aren't as good on them despite the advantage of not having a gamma shift. I wish I knew more about how the VR-3730 handles games (in relation to blurring when spinning about 360 degrees) but, I've no way to see that until my board comes back as the rig I am using now introduces far to many performance variables as it's a P4 using a 6200 PCI card.

I'm from Europe and all those tv makers are not present here. 32" tvs are plenty, but 37" are very rare, at least newer ones from Sony/Panasonic/Samsung and even LG. LG has only one new model with lamp backlight and that's it. I wanted something with LED, very slim and energy efficient, but no luck.

Sorry to hear you're limited on brand selection. It's still very early in the model roll-out for 2012 though so, perhaps you will have an LED model available later in the year.

VR-3730 updates

For anyone keeping up with my adventures with the VR-3730 and it's settings, I've updated the ones for the PC and the Component (Y/PB/PR) signals. The Component (Y/PB/PR) is really "lacking" in black levels compared to the PCs DVI>HDMI signal but the PC has the advantage of additional settings via the video card's control panel for both the PC's desktop and the video players. It's a shame the TV's menu is so "barren" as it really hurts my overall impression of the TV. In fact, it having more inputs (3 HDMI, 2 Component, 1 Composite, 1 S-video, and 1 VGA) is sort of pointless when you can't get the levels "right" on them unless a PC is involved or your hardware outputting the signal has additional settings in it to alter the brightness/contrast/gamma.

I want to clarify "lacking" in black levels though. The Component (Y/PB/PR) signal can get almost as dark but, the result is a bit of black crush as the TV isn't as good at black level separation without the aid of the video card control panel. However, (and I can not stress this enough) the Component (Y/PB/PR) signal lacks any discernible banding and that is the only field that it beats the PC in. I'm not sure if the banding on the PC signal is the result of the video card control panel settings, the low end nature of the hardware, some other variable, or if it's just the "nature of the beast" so to speak. Attempting to minimize the banding on the PC has thus far left me with either washed out white levels or overly dark black levels, or a combination of the two. Banding may be the wrong word for it though as it doesn't look like the "it shouldn't look like this" example on the Lagom gradient test page. It honestly looks more like the "reduced colour depth" example but with far less colour separation as the blending is substantially better but, the faint "lines" are not evenly spaced like in the "reduced colour depth" example. On the Vanity.dk gradient test page though, there is some banding going on in the darker areas in addition to the issues seen on the Lagom gradient test page. I would provide pictures but I have yet to be able to capture a suitable result with the camera.

In summation the DVI>HDMI signal is better and has no overscan but, it has some banding issues. The Component (Y/PB/PR) signal can't go quite as dark on the black levels, it doesn't handle black level separation as well, and it has overscan (likely the result of a 480i signal though it shouldn't matter) but it doesn't have banding.


All that having been said, here are the updated settings:

DVI>HDMI Nvidia Control Panel (Geforce 6200 with driver 275.33):

• Adjust desktop colour settings
  
  37% Brightness
  00% Digital Vibrance
  35% Contrast
  1.24 Gamma (this was 1.14)
  00% Image Sharpening

• Adjust video colour settings
  
  Colour
  
  50% Brightness (this was 51%)
  17% Contrast (this was 33%)
  21% Saturation (this was 28%)
  
  Gamma
  
  1.14 Red (this was 1.00)
  1.14 Green (this was 1.00)
  1.14 Blue (this was 1.00)

• Adjust video image settings
  
  40% Edge enhancement
  40% Noise reduction (this was 100%)
  Check the box for Use inverse telecine

DVI>HDMI VR-3730 menu settings:

• Picture
  
  Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left and then 16 clicks to the right) (this was all the way to the left then 10 clicks to the right)
  
  Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then 1 click to the left) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 3 clicks to the right)
  
  Colour Temp is Neutral

• Setup
  
  Noise Reduction is off

Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) VR-3730 menu settings:

• Picture
  
  Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left, then 16 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider all the way to the left then leave it there)
  
  Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then leave it there) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 4 clicks to the right)
  
  Colour (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the left) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 15 clicks to the left)
  
  Sharpness (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 18 clicks to the right)
  
  Colour Temp is Neutral

• Setup
  
  Noise Reduction is off (setting this to high can help smooth out any "grainy/poorly transferred" 480i DVDs)
  DLC is off

 

[SJetski71]

The 2012 LGs sound promising especially given that they can do 1:1 pixel mapping on the HDMI, Component (Y/PB/PR), and RF signal according to the tech specs (as long as it's a 1080p/1080i/720p signal). I'm surprised it's selling at $399.99 considering the price of the 32LK450 was $425.99+. That's goig to have to get a price slash soon as Best Buy still has them and has gotten the 32CS560 now. The menu on the 32CS560 looks incredibly detailed but I've no idea what the 32LK450 menus contains. The Gamma and Gamut settings caught my eye though as did the white balance, black level and a slew of others.

I'm tempted to return the VR-3730 and throw my wallet into the cash register but, the VR-3730 has a lot more inputs, I've finally got the black levels dark (especially during the day), and I know what to expect out of this set. It would be a gamble to move to another set at this point especially one using an IPS panel as all I ever hear are the black levels aren't as good on them despite the advantage of not having a gamma shift. I wish I knew more about how the VR-3730 handles games (in relation to blurring when spinning about 360 degrees) but, I've no way to see that until my board comes back as the rig I am using now introduces far to many performance variables as it's a P4 using a 6200 PCI card.

LG TV with an S-IPS panel versus a better specced VA panel? At this point it would be a tough decision for me. I've become hooked to this VR-3225 S-PVA display, i'm afraid there's no going back to my Panasonic L32S1 and it has nothing to do with 4:4:4 either. These deep, low-crush blacks are amazing and easy to become addicted to, the image quality has more of a plasma look to it imho <-- is this true, or is it just me?

And Racer the way you've been describing your experiences with the Dynex and VR-3730, it almost sounds as if you have a similar preference. But as you mentioned the LG S-IPS would have other advantages such as pixel refresh time (blur, but certain VA panels almost get close), menu calibration options, larger sweetspot with viewing angles. Come to think of it, the LG seems to have nearly all of the advantages .

But in my case, my next IPS panel would not be a TV, it would be one of those Korean 2560x1440 27" panels being discussed in the other thread. I need that extra bump to go back to IPS, that bump would be more pixels and non-existant input lag. On the same note don't let me dissuade you, if anything you seem ready to make the jump, and if i'm right then i'd say go for it

But I know one thing Racer, if you had a perfect Dynex, we wouldn't be having this particular discussion. Are you sure we can't pull off any reverse detective work to see if any other TV is using the same panel + mainboard? Heck i would have tried researching it for you a few weeks back, and meant to, but the home i just purchased/sold is kicking my butt, i'm tired and sore as heck between attorneys, realtors and now remodeling

 

[Racer_J]

LG TV with an S-IPS panel versus a better specced VA panel? At this point it would be a tough decision for me. I've become hooked to this VR-3225 S-PVA display, i'm afraid there's no going back to my Panasonic L32S1 and it has nothing to do with 4:4:4 either. These deep, low-crush blacks are amazing and easy to become addicted to, the image quality has more of a plasma look to it imho <-- is this true, or is it just me?

No, I agree the black levels are "nice". You would rethink that stance if you ever get your hands on an A-MVA panel though. What I would really like is to get the black levels as dark as they are with a light source in front of the VR-3730 when there is no light source in the room at all other than the light the VR-3730 is emitting. The black level separation is a bit better with no light source but in that scenario, all the black levels inside the viewing cone look like felt/velvet. There is something "false" about what the TV is doing with them. I am struggling for a way to word the effect but it's sort of like a matte finish that has a "sheen" to it on objects that wouldn't actually have this. At the same time, with a light source in front of the TV there are to many reflections and the black levels don't really stand out from one another like they should.

And Racer the way you've been describing your experiences with the Dynex and VR-3730, it almost sounds as if you have a similar preference. But as you mentioned the LG S-IPS would have other advantages such as pixel refresh time (blur, but certain VA panels almost get close), menu calibration options, larger sweetspot with viewing angles. Come to think of it, the LG seems to have nearly all of the advantages .

I do have a similar preference as I highly value black levels and that's my main hesitation when it comes to IPS panels as the food chain (IMO) goes A-MVA>S-PVA>IPS when it comes to black levels and LCDs. It's as big of a dealbreaker (if not bigger) than the rest of the typical dealbreakers for a display. The problem is when it comes to the VR-3730, the 32CS560 has distinct advantages (on paper) in those other dealbreaker categories.

But in my case, my next IPS panel would not be a TV, it would be one of those Korean 2560x1440 27" panels being discussed in the other thread. I need that extra bump to go back to IPS, that bump would be more pixels and non-existant input lag. On the same note don't let me dissuade you, if anything you seem ready to make the jump, and if i'm right then i'd say go for it

This is my other hesitation in getting an IPS display. If I'm going to trade off black levels, I want something "extra" in exchange other than what an IPS panel can typically offer. my problem with the Korean monitors is the need for a new video card, the desire for a SquareTrade warranty, and the issue of scaling/interpolation. They are a terrific deal for what they are but, they don't fully meet my needs and the timing of their "availability" is just wrong form me (actual timing coinciding with life not input lag/refresh rate/etc.).

I'm not quite ready to "jump" just yet but that is primarily because I got the VR-3730 for $279.99 + tax. If I had payed the usual $349.99+ tax price, I would likely be moving to either a 32LK450 or a 32CS560 as I could always go back to the VR-3730 if I had to without "loosing money" in the process. I also have to honestly consider that "cold feet" might be at play here as the 30 day "remorse" period is coming to an end and 2012 LG models are rolling out cheaper than expected and contain some fairly detailed calibration capabilities.

But I know one thing Racer, if you had a perfect Dynex, we wouldn't be having this particular discussion. Are you sure we can't pull off any reverse detective work to see if any other TV is using the same panel + mainboard? Heck i would have tried researching it for you a few weeks back, and meant to, but the home i just purchased/sold is kicking my butt, i'm tired and sore as heck between attorneys, realtors and now remodeling

This is true. Had I been able to get a non-defective DX32L230A12 none of this would be on the table. However, it has allowed everyone to have a rather in depth insight into that set and the VR-3730 so the situation is beneficial to others even if it's not "desirable" to me.

It's possible but, I haven't tried keying the panel IDs into any of the searches I do when I punch in TV model numbers in order to try and find the panel IDs. Doing a quick search on shopjimmy for the panel I had in the DX32L230A12 (T315HW04 VD) come up with two T-con boards that have been used in the following sets:

DYNEX DX-37L150A11
RCA 37LA45RQ
VIORE LC37VF72
WESTINGHOUSE VR-3725

And when I was looking into the VR-3730 I saw some parts that would have used an A-MVA panel as well in it.

The problem with that type of search though is that it illustrates a panel lottery that may or may not exist and there is no telling when said lottery would have taken place. I have a hunch that Dynex might use the A-MVA panels exclusively though but keep in mind that is just incredibly heavy speculation. Insignia might as well as shopjimmy showed the following use A-MVA panels:

NS-26L450A11
NS-32L450A11
NS-32LB451A11

as do the following:

COBY TFTV3225
SCEPTRE X322BV-HD
SONY KDL-32EX400
SONY KDL-32EX400B
SONY KDL-37EX401
SONY KDL-37EX403


I stopped looking at this point as there are a numerous amount of parts "linked" together by differing part numbers, "suitable replacements", etc. that just lead to more parts for different sets. The usage of the A-MVA panels may not be as limited as I thought but, that doesn't mean the likelihood of getting one is high as there could be a lottery involved on some of those sets. Then I would have to see if any of them are still available, what the pricing is, if it can do 4:4:4 and on and on and on. I obviously would prefer an A-MVA panel but, that is a ton of information to try and wade through. It would be much easier if companies would stick to one panel type in a certain model like Panasonic (and apparently LG) are doing this year. I understand that's not always feasible though but, it would make shopping/researching a hell of a lot easier. If LG would do an A-MVA set I would probably be all over it but then I would have to run it through a gauntlet of tests. To be fair, we all have to do that though no matter what we end up buying.

 

[Racer_J]

I forgot I was working on an image to show the black levels and I didn't include it in my last post as a result. The picture that follows is a compilation of several shots taken with a light source in front of the TV (two fluorescent 5500k twist bulbs in the ceiling fan) crudely pasted together in MS paint. It's not an exact replica of what I am actually seeing as the text and icons aren't that washed out, the white text on the label on the bezel isn't that tinted, the "Energy star" label on the bezel is a darker and more vibrant blue, the darker shades of grey on the [H]ard|Forum isn't quite that dark or that shade, etc. The darkest black level however is that dark but I have to stress this is an affect brought about by a light source in front of the TV as it's not nearly that dark with the room unlit since you are able to tell the entire screen is lit with the lights off as there is no light/reflections to change the colour of the bezel or to aid in "manipulating" the brightness/contrast.

This image is meant to showcase the bezel's colour and the black background here at [H]ard|Forum but I figured I would try to give an overall idea of what it looks like since the Fuji Z10fd is really bad and taking pictures of displays. The text is also not anywhere near that blurry. The camera also refuses to deal well with text at all unless it is a macro shot very close to the display which doesn't really show anyone anything other than a it being in 4:4:4 chroma. The text on the screen is almost as sharp as the text on the label on the bezel is but, XP and clear type are slightly impacting it. With ClearType off text is incredibly sharp but aliased/jagged as a result. It will probably look better on W7 when I finally get my motherboard back.

Here is a picture of the bezel and the black background here at [H]ard|Forum with no light source on (which likely proves how picky I am being with the black levels but, it's more noticeable when you have letterbox bars and are viewing a movie as there is a lot more light coming through the panel):

*edit*

I have also noticed that the VR-3730 does have a very light anti glare coating on the panel as the reflection of the lights in the ceiling fan are an entirely different shade of white (a much warmer shade) and the light isn;t intense enough to hurt your eyes like it's reflection on the bezel would. If it weren't for that, I don't think anyone could tell it has a coating on it as you can read font reflections on it as long as they are far enough away from the screen and are above 10 to 12 in size. It's not quite the mirror that I thought it was but it's still very glossy.

 

[Racer_J]

I decided to just do a search for the T315HW04 panel on shopjimmy and not a specific variant of it. Oh how I would love to confirm that the following product contains an A-MVA panel:

LG 32LK450-UB.CUSDLH

I was under the impression that the 32LK450's only used S-PVA or IPS panels though. Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place especially since the last time I was in Best Buy, I'm pretty sure they were all CUSHY versions.

 

[SJetski71]

I decided to just do a search for the T315HW04 panel on shopjimmy and not a specific variant of it. Oh how I would love to confirm that the following product contains an A-MVA panel:

LG 32LK450-UB.CUSDLH

I was under the impression that the 32LK450's only used S-PVA or IPS panels though. Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place especially since the last time I was in Best Buy, I'm pretty sure they were all CUSHY versions.

Funny, i was going to mention the VA version of the LK450 in my last post, which are all too common in the 32" size. And to be honest, i never recalled the LK450 using S-PVA at all, i vaguely remember it as being some MVA variant. PoohContinuum may have more info on this.

 

[Racer_J]

Funny, i was going to mention the VA version of the LK450 in my last post, which are all too common in the 32" size. And to be honest, i never recalled the LK450 using S-PVA at all, i vaguely remember it as being some MVA variant. PoohContinuum may have more info on this.

I might have just been making the assumption that they had S-PVA panels given the VR-3225 and some of the other sets discussed do. Is the anti-glare coating people complain about on LG screens strictly with the IPS variants or does it affect the PVA panels as well? I did a quick search but didn't dig up anything and figured it was better to just ask.

Beyond the A-MVA panel potential, the biggest draw to the 32LK450 is not having to worry about overscan on the inputs, the increased selection of options, and not having to change the aspect ratio every single time you turn off the TV (as "Fill" is the default on any signal other than a DVI>HDMI signal on the VR-3730 and "Standard" completely botches the aspect ratio of 480i signals), and the fact that it's a 32" means it will have an increased pixel density which should tighten up the text aliasing/blockiness with ClearType off.

The concerns are running into a situation of the grass being greener on the other side and regretting the jump if it turns out I like something better about the VR-3730. I don't think that will happen but, "never say never". There is also the issue that the 32" will look tiny compared to the 37".


As it stands, I think the VR-3730 is a good monitor but, it lacks the necessary adjustments if there is not a PC involved. The picture on inputs other than a DVI>HDMI signal is ok but, I know it can be better as it just doesn't measure up to the video playback when it comes to the black levels, white saturation, etc. While I could always play movies strictly through the PC, that's not an option for game consoles nor for cable/satellite without the added cost of an input card for the PC which could introduce a host of other issues.

I'm genuinely conflicted on this as I finally have the black levels to a more suitable level on the VR-3730 but, this has also increased the GBG response time and introduced far more noticable trailing on the Vanity.dk "trailing interactive gradients" test page. The "flag" test and "chase" test in PixPerAn also suffered but to a lesser degree. I've also managed to "solidfy" the edges of text a bit more after going back to a DPI of 96 (100%) in XP, turning off ClearType in XP and using a combination of "Arial" and "System" fonts. The only way text is going to appear less aliased/blocky at this point is by going to an increased pixel density as I'm not going back to W7 until my board comes back from RMA. I can live with the text on the VR-3730 as I am comparing it to text on a 32" with W7 64 and that's not really a fair fight when it comes to how the edges look. For the sake of clarity, the text is fine (clear/sharp/readable) on the VR-3730 it's just that I know it can be a tad bit better.

However, it's difficult to discern if the CUSD version of the 32LK450 will actually offer any actual improvements as most people were hell bent on getting the CUSDY version. As such all I can ever find on the 32LK450 involving any actual calibration and measurements involve the CUSDY version other than the occasional "I'm really happy with my VA variant" comments. Then there is the issue of the price and the truth is, I basically stole the VR-3730 as it was around $303 out the door. At some point though a "good buy" starts to lose its charm as the area of actual performance (or rather perceived performance) start to get whittled away by the perceived potential of other available sets.

In the end, jumping to another set just to be rid of the overscan issue and not remembering the aspect ratio might be worth the risk. Those are two fairly large flaws given that this is 2012 and that the TV refusing to remember the aspect ratio was intentional according to a review. To be fair, I knew about the potential of the aspect ratio setting issue going in but not about the inability to kill the overscan unless it was a specific resolution on the signal. I also wasn't expecting any signal other than a PC to be "lacking" in I/PQ (image/picture quality) when compared to the PC signal (except for the "banding") especially since a lowly 6200 PCI card is involved. I think in an effort to do everything in my power to make this set work, I've become "attached" to it in a sense as I've watched it "grow". This isn't a kid though and it's perfectly fine to go get another one if they don't turn out like you had hoped. In the end, despite the "attachment" I know deep down that I would be settling if I keep it as the improvements that I have been able to make simply can not outweigh the actual flaws involving the TV's menu and firmware. I could look past those if this was strictly bought to be used as a monitor as they wouldn't be applicable to that situation. I need it to be an all in one solution though and thus these flaws are applicable and quite irritating as I have no interest in changing the aspect ratio on a different signal every time the TV is turned off. It's bad enough I have to change the Noise reduction back to off every time the TV is turned off by the PC and woken back up by moving the mouse, pressing a key, or physically turning it back on. You just shouldn't have to do things like that in my opinion.

I really thought I could make the VR-3730 work and I was on the fence about what to do until after I had typed all of this out. At this point though it's pretty clear that I need to stop being enamored by the fact that it's a 37", that I payed so little for it, and that PC games look awesome at 37". What I need to do is be the analytical individual I am and accept the fact that even though I gave it a good run, this set is not a proper fit for anyone that needs to use it as something other than a monitor. Believe me, typing that last sentence sounded as absurd to me as it will to some of you reading it but it's the truth as the VR-3730 is a far better at being a monitor than it is as being a HDTV.

FML, I really thought I was done looking . . .

 

[Racer_J]

Additional VR-3730 updates

This will likely be my last update on this set as no one knows how to enter the service menu or what it contains. Without that, there is little hope of bypassing the flaws with the TV menu and firmware which do not allow us to change the backlight level from the TV menu and force you to reset the aspect ratio and the noise reduction settings after the TV is turned off. There is a chance that the service menu could correct those issues and some others (like overscanning a 480i signal) but, there is no telling when or if anyone will ever gain access to the service menu.

That having been said, I felt it was only proper to pull every last ounce of performance possible out of the VR-3730 as far as a PC signal goes since people are primarily using it and the other VR-xxxx models as monitors. As such, I didn't bother with the Component (Y/PB/PR) signal this time but I may mess with it later today to see if it can possibly mimic the black level separation of the PC now that I am letting the PC signal dump out more light. The most recent settings have also reduced some of the "banding" on the PC signal on the Lagom and Vanity.dk test pages and it has eliminated a majority of it on video playback (though it was exceedingly rare). At night it's much harder to tell the bezel apart from the letterbox bars if there the scene is brightly lit outside during the day. A dimly lit scene or something happening outside at night will reveal the difference between the bezel and the letterbox bars but, the bars are pretty dark and it would probably be a nitpick for most people. The black level separation has vastly improved and I would say it's approaching what the DX-32L230A12 was capable of so that should give you an indication of how big of an improvement it is given my affection for the DX-32L230A12. However, it came at the expense of the TV putting out far more light than I care for at night. It's probably not an issue during the day but, I haven't seen these new settings in the day yet and that won't change the fact that it's brighter than it needs to be at night. Ballsat/bias lighting would probably quash that complaint altogether though. To be fair, the improved black level separation keeps a lot of detail in black levels from getting "crushed" in the "viewing cone" and that was by far one of my largest complaints about the black level separation on the VR-3730. The availability of a proper backlight adjustment could potentially get this set a little closer to the DX-32L230A12 but unfortunately there isn't a known way to access one.

One of the largest changes you will notice (besides the bump in brightness/contrast in the video card control panel) is that I have switched from "Neutral" to "Warm" on the VR-3730 as "Neutral" got a little to cool looking on this batch of settings in addition to making the white very bright. "Warm" looks more "natural" to me with these settings. Using "Neutral" with these settings will slightly affect the gamma and the black levels due to the shift in tint.



Please keep in mind they were done using "Casino Royal" (the 2006 remake) as the final judgment but, they were set using the Lagom and Vanity.dk test pages. These settings have exposed a lot of flaws in the extended edition of "LOTR The Fellowship of the Ring" (disc 1) as there are some areas in some dimly lit/night scenes that don't get anywhere near as dark as the letterbox bars are. It almost looks like the wrong ISO was used when they shot the film based on the "noise" in some of the black levels in those types of scenes but, that would be a huge mistake so I'm more inclined to believe my settings are involved. As such, you may want to use an actual video tuning disc for video playback. My goal was to make the video playback of "Casino Royal" (the 2006 remake) match up to screenshots I took of it with these settings. Speaking of screenshots:

Left image: Screenshot of middle image
Middle image: Screenshot of playback paused in MPC HCE (old settings). With the video paused, the actual video playback was identical to the image on the left just as this screenshot indicates.
Right image: Screenshot of video playback paused in MPC HCE (current settings).

The left and middle images make the image on the right look like it has a "soap opera" effect but, it doesn't. Video playback doesn't look like a "soap opera" nor does it look like "live footage". It only looks that way compared to the older images because of the increased brightness and contrast in the video card's control panel. It's a clear representation of just how much more light I had to let out in order to increase the black levels and the separation and why I feel it was "overkill". It almost looks like flash photography to me as it just wouldn't be that bright in a boat nor would it be in some of the other scenes like inside the Casino. It's possible to tone this down some but, it would come at the expense of crushing the blacks at the beginning of "Casino Royal" (the 2006 remake) and I feel this would be the result of using an incorrect gamma setting given that a reduction in contrast or brightness brings on obvious banding and artifacts. However, the increased separation of the black levels could also just as easily be the result of an incorrect gamma setting and it probably is. In fact I found this so irritating that I had to alter the video player settings in the video card's control panel which has resulted in the image on the far right:

This has gotten rid of the excessive light output while slightly enriching the colours and slightly increasing the light output compared to the original images. It has also kept some of the increased capability of the black level separation. It's probably not where it should be for the new desktop colour settings though and it likely needs a bit more contrast put into it.


Here is the screenshot of just the paused video playback (in windowed mode) with the old settings so that you can have an idea of what the full scene looks like:

Here is the screenshot of just the paused video playback (in windowed mode) with the overly bright settings so that you can have an idea of what the full scene looks like:

Here is the screenshot of just the paused video playback (in windowed mode) with the corrected settings to the video playback settings so that you can have an idea of what the full scene looks like:

This shows that the image is just slightly brighter with slightly richer colours than the first set of images.


To show the increased capability in black level separation, here is the original:

Here is the updated:

You can see that the black levels are better defined and that the colours in the background aren't quite as muted. There is also less of a "crush" brought on by the "viewing cone". That was the nice thing about the A-MVA panel in the DX-32L230A12 though as it didn't "damage" what was in the "viewing cone". It enhanced it. Hopefully those of you viewing the images can see the changes but it's hard to tell given the different displays being used along with their settings as those may not allow you to see the "crush" brought about by the "viewing cone" in the first place. Given that the Fuji Z10fd is so bad at doing pictures though I was forced to just use screenshots and I doubt that's going to translate very well.


All that having been said, here are the updated settings:

DVI>HDMI Nvidia Control Panel (Geforce 6200 with driver 275.33):

• Adjust desktop colour settings
  
  50% Brightness (this was 37%)
  00% Digital Vibrance
  50% Contrast (this was 32%)
  1.24 Gamma (all channels)
  1.17 R Gamma (this was 1.24) This was changed to alter the Gamma at 48%
  1.25 G Gamma (this was 1.24) This was changed to alter the Gamma at 48%
  1.32 B Gamma (this was 1.24) This was changed to alter the Gamma at 48%
  00% Image Sharpening

• Adjust video colour settings
  
  Colour
  
  50% Brightness (this was 51%)
  27% Contrast (this was 17%) Use 57% if you want the over lit look
  28% Saturation (this was 21%) Use 50% if you want the over lit look
  
  Gamma
  
  1.11 R (this was 1.14)
  1.25 G (this was 1.14)
  1.32 B (this was 1.14)

• Adjust video image settings
  
  40% Edge enhancement
  100% Noise reduction (this was 40%) This was changed back to 100% in order to make a fair comparison with the previous screenshots of the VR-3730 using the old settings.
  Check the box for Use inverse telecine

DVI>HDMI VR-3730 menu settings:

• Picture
  
  Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left and then 16 clicks to the right) (this was all the way to the left then 10 clicks to the right)
  
  Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then 2 click to the left) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 1 clicks to the left)
  
  Colour Temp is Warm

• Setup
  
  Noise Reduction is off

 

[Racer_J]

BTW, allegedly the A-MVA panel in the LG 32LK450-UB.CUSDLH is the T315HW04 V4 which is very similar to the T315HW04 VD. The only major differences are the 450 cd/m2 (Typ.) brightness on the V4 compared to the 400 cd/m2 (Typ.) on the VD and the Antiglare (Haze 11%) on the V4 compared to the Antigalre (2%) on the VD. I haven't quite figured out the Antiglare ratings but considering the way the coating looked on the DX-32L230A12 which was Antiglare (2%) and the way the coating looks on the VR-3730 which is Antigalre (11%), 2% would equate to thick/grainy and 11% would equate to hard to tell it's there. The thick and noticeable coating on the DX-32L230A12's panel didn't hurt the performance though. Considering the alleged panel in the LG 32LK450-UB.CUSDLH has a higher brightness rating than the panel in the DX-32L230A12 and the level of calibration adjustments on the LK450, I think it's going to be a good fit and worth the increased cost. The panel specs alone are a substantial upgrade over the V370H3-L02's 380 cd/m2 (Typ.) brightness vs 450 cd/m2 (Typ.) brightness and 4000:1 (Typ) (Transmissive) contrast ratio vs 5000:1 (Typ) (Transmissive) contrast ratio.

With my luck though, they will only have the CUSY ISP variants lol. At that point I would have to strongly consider getting the newer 32CS560 instead since they are the same price. However, the 32LK450 is far more likely to have a price drop in 30 days than the 32CS560 is. Has anyone actually pulled the IPS panel model off of either of those? I'm just curious about the rated specs though I am dreading the black levels and the antiglare coating on them.


*edit* BTW, the 32LK450 is listed as not available for shipping at Best Buy's site now so stocks must be getting pretty low. It's also listed as unavailable for store pickup locally so FML on that lol. Makes me wonder if I missed some ultra secret super sale on it. Ugh I don't know if I really want to "have" to get an IPS panel . . .

 

[Racer_J]

Quick bit of advice, if you buy the LG 32CS560, do not under any circumstances name you're DVI>HDMI signal from the PC on the HDMI input to "PC". It will devour your text with halos and other nonsense. Fell free to name it anything else though. This could be an issue with the 6200 card but I felt it was worth pointing out as some of you would tear your hair out after getting 4:4:4 from the EDID override then pondering "why so crappy text". Also, make sure that you turn off the "Edge Enhancement" option.

I picked one up as I didn't feel like driving all over creation to find a 32LK450 and I didn't want to bother with trying to do a store transfer given the very limited number of "on hands" in the system. They still had their display (which was a CUSD variant) but it had been on display for at least a year and that was to many hours for my taste. The 32LK450 is a clearance item though so feel free to try and haggle should you happen across one at your local Best Buy. The other reason that I picked up a 32CS560 is because it was on display a few sets down from the 32LK450 and in "retail" mode in the store it was pretty difficult to tell them apart although signal feed degradation to all the sets in the store probably played a hand in that as did the lighting. I thought the lack of the gamma shift was pretty cool but . . .


Things that make me want to vomit:

That must have been some sort of magical display set because this thing has a nasty white wash out on a viewing angle shift when sitting at a range closer than 6' from the screen. The lack of a viewing cone is neat, the washout is not though and I don't know how people thin that type of washout is better than what happens with a VA panel. At least the VA panel makes those areas "brighter". The IPS angle shift literally "eats" any details in the black levels as it washes out from a viewing angle shift. i was prepared for lower black levels but not this. It's nasty looking and reminiscent of what a TN panel does before it goes to photo-negative but with a white tint. I knew IPS panels went "white" at extreme viewing angles but, I would hardly consider lowering my line of sight to the bottom of the screen less than 4' away as an extreme angle.

There is also "shadow banding" on the Lagom pixel walk test for images 3 and 4a to the right on the black box and to the left and right of the Lagom watermark. Image 4b has flicker. The VR-3730 also had "shadow banding" on one of these pages and flicker on one or two of them so this is probably somewhat common.

The Vanity.dk trailing test pages with their interactive gradients show that there is trailing but it's a lighter white colour on the blue, red, black bars rather than the same colour like it is on a VA panel. The white bar and the light grey bar have darker coloured trails.

The Pixel Mapping test page at Vanity DK revelas the lower two thirds of the screen has a pale green tinge to it while the top third of the screen does not. It's the same thing on the Lagom pixel walk test page for images 1 and 2a except it's a darker green tinge. Images 3 and 4a show that the lower half of the screen is darker. This is not present on the Vanity.dk homgenuity test pages though so it appears to brought about by a "screen door" effect of sorts as a result of how the pixels are being displayed on an IPS panel and possibly the panel coating as none of this occurred on the S-PVA panel in the VR-3730 nor the A-MVA panel in the DX-32L230A12..

This was on a dirty tune using the LG picture wizard for some base settings and then the Lagom and Vanity.dk test pages as a follow up. I only messed with the basic settings and only disabled processing features in the expert settings.


Praise:

The black levels are far better than I expected though and the black level seperation is much better than the VR-3730 was without the need for an excess amount of light. It's also nice to not see black levels get crushed by the viewing cone but it is painful to watch them fade into oblivion from a viewing angle shift (which is reduced as you move further from the screen) and that's going to bug the hell out of me when I lay down and watch TV.

The Lagom and Vanity.dk tests don't have any banding. There are some very faint lightly coloured lines on the Vanity.dk gradients test pages though. I also don't see the sparkle/shimmer that people go on and on about either. I find it rather odd that the things I would hate the most aren't present or aren't as bad as I thought they would be and that I have other issues I wasn't expecting to run into. The image is also remarkably clear during windowed playback of 480i DVDs (as is fullscreen playback) and while I'm sure the increased pixel density of moving back down to a 32" from a 37", I can't help but wonder if the firmware and electronics are also playing a part in this.


While all of that is likely going to come across as bing a "fanboy" of VA panels, it is what it is. Granted I need a proper "tune" but, am I missing something or did I just get a crappy set? There is most likely a lot left in this set but, my "makes me want to puke" section really has me scratching my head as I wasn't expecting any of it and I expected far more out of an IPS panel and that's ignoring the fact that it's an LG TV and that I paid more money for it. I feel rather "ripped off" and mislead by the viewing angle issue.


*edit* You also can;t kill overscan on a 480i signal on the 32CS560. I knew that before I bought it though as the manual's specs clearly pointed out that you can only do "just scan" on a 1080p/1080i/720p signal. I wanted to mention it though in case anyone else wasn't aware of it. I'm going to speculate that it's around 2.5% to 5% but it's the same amount of overscan the VR-3730 was doing and, I don;t have to change the damn aspect ratio setting every time I turn the TV on and off. In fact, I didn't even have to change it at all to reduce the overscan to that level. At least LG let everyone know this would happen in the 32CS560 manual though unlike Westinghouse that never said one way or the other. There should really be a full amount of disclosure about that type of issue in the owner's manual for all makes/models.

*additional edit*

The panel in my 32CS560 is a LG S-IPS LC320WUN-SCA1 and that was the only label visible from the vents and the box code was CUSHY and it's all they had. My panel's label specifically said LC320WUN (SC)(A1) but that is an alias. There is a pretty large lack of information on this panel as of right now.

 

[SJetski71]

Racer thank you for testing the new LG 32CS560 for us, totally unexpected but welcomed all the same. It sounds like it passed 4:4:4 but with different settings than previous LG models.

There are other very knowledgeable people on this forum that have echoed some of your findings, they may like IPS panels but not on televisions, much of the time the TV IPS panels are not in the same league as monitor panels. Granted results will vary from set to set, model to model, from panel revision to panel revision, properly calibrated vs unproperly, there are many variables. Another thing to consider, most of the top rated LCD TV's in recent years have been Samsung and Sony made, and they always use VA variants, coincidence?

But IPS TV's can often have smaller, localized viewing angle issues on certain parts of the screen, the bottom right or left seems to be the most common imho. It may be called flashlighting by some, or backlight bleed, but since it seems to shift with head movement i like to call it a "localized viewing angle issue". I've noticed this with CCFL models, i imagine the Edge-lit LED models will have their own set of peculiarities like clouding etc etc.

Now before anyone takes this as IPS TV bashing, remember i have my preferences too, i'm now at the point of being 60/40 in favor of VA over IPS in my televisions, sometimes i'm in the mood for one, and sometimes the other. And since i realize it's a preference, i don't question it when a knowledgeable person chooses an IPS television, they obviously have some experience with them and favor it's characteristics.

 

[Racer_J]

Racer thank you for testing the new LG 32CS560 for us, totally unexpected but welcomed all the same. It sounds like it passed 4:4:4 but with different settings than previous LG models.

Yea as soon as I did the EDID override on my video card entry and rebooted 4:4:4 was triggered over the DVI>HDMI signal. For what it's worth, white text actually looked really nice prior to getting 4:4:4 working. It was so nice in fact that I was rather shocked to see the 4:4:4 tests (bspvette86's and Belle-Nuit's) failing. As soon as I saw coloured text though I knew without question it was failing for sure and that it wasn't related to a scaling issue in WIV (windows image viewer). I was really shocked renaming it to "PC" had the devastating effect that it did on all the text but I am using XP right now with ClearType off so YMMV.

If it hadn't been on display, I most likely would have waited before jumping to it. It looked really nice and "unproblematic" in the store. I can't believe I let the retail environment fool me but it had to happen sooner or later as she is a vile temptress. I'll obviously go more in depth on this later once I figure out some stuff on it as there is no reason to throw the towel in yet given this is my first round with an IPS display.

There are other very knowledgeable people on this forum that have echoed some of your findings, they may like IPS panels but not on televisions, much of the time the TV IPS panels are not in the same league as monitor panels. Another thing to consider, most of the top rated LCD TV's in recent years have been Samsung and Sony made, and they always use VA variants, coincidence?

In hindsight I can see that but the way people were acting about the IPS varrients of the LK450 series one would think it was beyond amazing. It might have been though as there is obviously a new mainboard in play since the number of inputs has been slashed and there is a chance it's a different panel as well.

I'm not surprised about the top TV's using VA panels especially given that they appear to be the A-MVA variants. That would certainly hold true with my personal experience and I think it's a shame they don't put them in monitors as the smaller sizes would negate a lot of the "viewing cone" effect which is already muted on the A-MVA panel to begin with.

But IPS TV's can often have smaller, localized viewing angle issues on certain parts of the screen, the bottom right or left seems to be the most common imho. It may be called flashlighting by some, or backlight bleed, but since it seems to shift with head movement i like to call it a "localized viewing angle issue". I've noticed this with CCFL models, i imagine the Edge-lit LED models will have their own set of peculiarities like clouding etc etc.

I actually don't see any flashlighting or backlight bleed but it's not dark outside yet so that remains to be seen. Speaking of certain parts of the screen though (I forgot to add this to my previous post) the left and right vertical sides initially pissed me off because my wallpaper was so much darker towards them. I didn't experience this on the VR-3730 so I thought the 32CS560 was having a lighting issue at the edges which made no sense at all. Then I realized the wallpaper actually gets darker as it gets to the left and right edges but, the VR-3730 didn't even show that on a thumbnail view of the wallpaper nor when looking at it in WIV and I just don't get that at all. That is probably why the left and right of the wallpaper is so quick to know wash out from a viewing angle shift though as the screen is clearly more "accurate". Speaking of which there is a tint that I need to try and cleanup later as this looks to have a yellow/green push on it but it could just be me trying to get used to the set as that push isn't present on white or red screens nor on the gamma test page.

Edge lit LCDs are an atrocity. Yes, my only experience with them was a Westinghouse LD-2280 but that was enough for one lifetime. As soon as I saw the backlight bleed, clouding, and flashlighting, I knew I want no part of that technology nor a desire to play the lottery for an "acceptable" panel that wasn't riddled with flaws. I am also fully aware that there better edge lit LED units out there but that's just a headache I don't wish to bring upon myself. To those of you that like them, that's fine as I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to share my point of view. Edge lit anything is just not my thing.

And since i realize it's a preference, i don't question it when a knowledgeable person chooses an IPS television, they obviously have some experience with them and favor it's characteristics.

I couldn't agree more and that's why I asked advice on my current predicament as I'm curious if it's strictly related to this panel, this set, or IPS screens in general as I would think all of those would be well known if they were common.

 

[Racer_J]

Ugh, I keep forgetting to point out that XP will power down the 32CS560 based on the power settings for a monitor (turn monitor off in "X" minutes) but, it can't "wake" it back up. Neither the keyboard or the mouse will "wake" it so you need to power it back on with the remote or the "touch" interface on the front of the bezel. At least the PC can shut it down though.

*edit* LG also put a CYA statement in the owner's manual about not letting a static image sit for longer than two hours on LCD, Plasma, and LEDs due to the risk of "burn in". That may not be anything new though.

*additional edit* Blood hell my mind is all over the place today. I also wanted to point out that manually specifically states that it doesn't matter what HDMI port you use for the PC signal.

 

[SixFootDuo]

Racer_J, I just picked up two of these sets, the new LG 32SC560. $863 dollars with tax at Best Buy in Saint Joseph, Mo. They had two, so grabbed them.

Before I crack open the boxes, would you rate these displays keepers? It sounds like you are just now starting out a vast array of tests that could take some time. I look forward to your posts. I may crack one open and leave the other box sealed.

First, I want to tell you that I very much appreciate all your hard work that goes into anything that you do. It really shows in your postings here. No doubt the community here on HardOCP is a better place experience because of people like you. Hats off.

Before I open these boxes up, I am really going to be paying attention to what you have to say. My goal is 3 of these displays for eyefinity and for my recording studio. Of course my goals being, excellent picture quality and performance as it relates to a personal computer experience, great viewing angles, low latency and LG quality in the fit and finish of the product.

Again, hats off Racer_J

 

[Racer_J]

Just got done staring at the black homogenuity test page over at Vanity.dk in with no light source other than the TV. There might just be the tiniest little bit of backlight bleed a couple of inches to the right from the center of the bottom edge but you have to hunt for it. I can't stress hunt enough as the camera couldn't even pick it up and it was only picking up the gamma shift near the top of the screen as a result from where the camera's "eye level" was when the exposure and ISO settings were at improper levels.

I won't be bold and say this currently approaches the black levels of what I was able to pull out of the VR-3730 but I haven't really started digging into the settings of the TV just yet nor have I started tearing into the video card's control panel yet but it's still far darker than I thought it would be as everyone always says blacks are greys on an IPS panel. This set might put up a good fight though when it comes to black levels on eye-ball tunes as I will go out on a limb and say it's slightly less than what the VR-3730 was out of the box but I do have a dirty tune on this. That panel also looks incredibly uniform to my eyes. When viewing it at an "off/extreme angle", I don't see any brighter/darker areas in it like I did on the VR-3730. I am super tempted to remove the film but, that won't happen for quite a while as I will need ot make sure I'm going to keep it and I'll likely wait until the warranty runs out since I don't have the "typical" response to it. I'm just curious what it's capable of without the film given how much if blurs reflections. It doesn't dim or alter the colour of the ceiling fan lights near as much as the VR-3730 did though which makes sense given it's a 2% haze vs an 11% haze but you would think a thicker matte finish would eat up more of the light.

My eyes have also already adapted to running the "warm" setting except here on [H]ard|Forum as something looks "off". Nothing else stands out as being "improper" though so perhaps I haven't seen [H]ard|Forum properly until now. I may just need to dig a little deeper though as so far I have only done quick adjustments based on the Lagom and Vanity.dk pages with minimal effort so it had strong potential out of the box in that aspect like the DX-32L230A12 did. It's obviously not going to touch that set's black levels but I am highly curious to see what this set is capable of.


Somewhat related but most likely completely irrelevant to most of you, I couldn't make my nifty little base cover I made for the VR-3730 work with the 32CS560 as it has a rather "unique" way of bolting to the neck and then bolting to the TV. That being said, the base cover for the 32CS560 is pretty"small" as it's only about 1/4" wider than my center speaker is and somewhere between 1/8"to 1/4" longer than the center speaker box is. To put that into perspective this is a HTIAB from around 2006 so the speaker boxes are not "small" by today's standards. The TV's base cover on the other hand is incredibly small by today's standards and both the back and front corners of it actually have padded feet that contact the surface the TV's metal base is sitting on. All six of the padded feet fit on my center speaker box so I was able to ditch the support extension stand I made for the VR-3730. This also allowed me to move the speakers further back to back edge of the of the TV stand which gave my G11 and everything else a bit more breathing room as well as a slight bump in viewing distance.


What is relevant is that initially it did look tiny after having a 37" for a few weeks but, the 32" has "grown" and it is absolutely without a doubt the sweet spot of me when it comes to something 32" and up.

It is also substantially better at handling motion blurring/ghosting than the VR-3730 was. I had assumed a large portion of what I was seeing in WoW intentionally spinning about in place was a result of the 9500GT. The 32CS560 does have some blurring/ghosting during the spin in place "test" which "increases" the further away something is but that is to be expected. It's not making a mess of the ground directly beneath me or within a 5-10 yard range though. There is some blurring of a cluster of three NPCs from 8-9 yards away but I can tell there are three distinct NPCs there. From 28+ yards away, it get's a little "dicey". Taking a macro shot revealed that there are two ghost images of each NPC while spinning but the ghost images are spaced out quite a bit from one another which I find odd. Something like that may have FPS (first person shooter) players groaning and potential hardcore PvP players as well. Keep in mind though that this was done on a P4 with a 6200 PCI card and both are incredibly subpar for even a "non-demanding" game like WoW. That is especially true for the 6200 card. I so need my motherboard back lol. The spin test was performed with the DVI>HDMI labled as "game". Changing it to "Blu-Ray", "HD-DVD", "DVD", "Set Top Box", "Satellite", "VCR", or "Cable Box" increased the total count to four of each NPC so "Game" does make a difference. Leaving it blank increased the count of each NPC to five. In addition to screwing up your text, "PC" introduces substantial blurring and they should just honestly delete this name setting to avoid confusion. "Game" is definitely where it's at as even substantially far away, there are only three of each NPC when taking a picture with a camera. You probably aren;t going to see them without a camera though. My advice to anyone is the same advice someone would tell you if you were fighting and "dazed". Aim for the one in the middle . . .

 

[SixFootDuo]

I cracked one open and first thing I noticed was the screen seems to be semi-gloss. Awesome! Happy to see this. Definitely not a very aggressive anti-glare coating. Update: I keep thinking of the TV's in terms of native PC displays. Semi Gloss is actually a lot more common with LCD / LED Tv's on 2nd thought. I will say that this 32" seems to have a bit more gloss than my 42" LG. Can't wait to see the display once it's on. Can't at the moment cause GF is sleeping. Very excited so far. I've been using Westy 37's for about the last 7 years maybe, W1 and a W3 and my LG 42" for about a year. I've always wanted to have a 32" eyefinity setup. Working on that now. I have high hopes for these 32" SC560's. It took me several weeks to dial in my LG 42LD450, thanks in part to the AVS community. I will be straight up with you, I about lost my mind and at several times thought I had made a huge mistake selling my Westy 37" W3. The biggest problem I had with the LG 42" was and it took me weeks to figure this out and this is on top of reading thousands of posts, was that installing the HDMI sound driver was killing my 4:4:4. Once I didn't install that drive, I have a perfect beautiful screen without any red bleeding all over the screen.

 

[Racer_J]

Before I crack open the boxes, would you rate these displays keepers? It sounds like you are just now starting out a vast array of tests that could take some time. I look forward to your posts. I may crack one open and leave the other box sealed.

First, I want to tell you that I very much appreciate all your hard work that goes into anything that you do. It really shows in your postings here. No doubt the community here on HardOCP is a better place experience because of people like you. Hats off.

Before I open these boxes up, I am really going to be paying attention to what you have to say. My goal is 3 of these displays for eyefinity and for my recording studio. Of course my goals being, excellent picture quality and performance as it relates to a personal computer experience, great viewing angles, low latency and LG quality in the fit and finish of the product.

Again, hats off Racer_J

This will be a little wordy so hang in there . . .

Damn, I didn't see this until after I just posted as I was in and out of WoW changing input labels and typing up my last post. I don't really know how I would rate it just yet. Obviously my first impression of it was mixed and that's why I try not to have an initial impression or make posts involving them as it's not really fair to the hardware or the readers. Given that this is such a new set though just like the DX-32L230A12 was and the lack of super in depth more than you want to know about the VR-3730, I felt it was prudent to post my initial impressions of all three sets.

I can completely understand not wanting to open a set if you don't kneed to as it obviously skews the return/exchange rate by changing the status to an openbox if it's a quality issue. That was the one thing I didn't like about having to return both the Westinghouse LD-2830 and the VR-3730. Well it's the one thing I didn't like about having to return the VR-3730 but it did have inherent flaws in the way it's menu and firmware were written. I had no qualms about returning the LD-2280 as it was utter rubbish in every way possible. I'm probably on the "radar" due to both of those and the two defective DX-32L230A12s I had to return but, it is what it is and I can't in good conscious keep something if it fails to meet my needs. Keeping something that failed to "deliver" would be just as irresponsible as someone intentionally abusing the return/exchange system. However they also know I am after a very specific set of expectations so all I had to tell them today when I took the VR-3730 back was it was just subpar for my needs plus they made additional money today so it's probably all good in their eyes.

With that being said, no matter what you read and regardless of who writes it, the true test to any product is hands on experience in your own environment and there is absolutely no way around that. Once more of the more experienced IPS panel users start weighing in on the 32CS560, I will probably be able to pull a lot more out of it "legitly" but, I'm not going to wait for that as I like to mess around and experiment with stuff I was what I want/expect usually begins where others would "call it a day" so to speak and accept certain shortcomings that might be able to be reduced just a tiny bit more.

I've no idea about running 3 at once as i lost interest in multiple displays when I had to use them at an old job. Despite being absurdly analytical, it was just to much spread out over to much real estate. If I ever got into another job that required multiple monitors, I would probably try to get away with a single high resolution display if it was possible. Looking out of my peripheral vision though and at an angle closer to your body than the left and right panels would be, I don't think you will run into a lot of horizontal gamma shift issues looking from left to right and from screen to screen. I could be wrong as this is just a very vast assumption and guess. If you start physically rocking/leaning side to side or front to back though, you will notice some vertical gamma shifting if you are 3' or closer to the screen which you likely will be since it's for a recording studio.

I doubt you will complain about the I/PQ (image/picture quality) but like all displays it will have it's strengths and it's weaknesses. The fact that 480i material looks good on to though should give some indication of the quality potential as not even my beloved DX-32L230A12 could match the 480i quality from further away much less up close in a windowed player. As far as I'm concerned anything that can make 480i look good is a quality display but that can be a double edged sword where 1080p could look like trash. I sincerely doubt that will happen but, I still haven't migrated to Blu-ray. I will try to source a Blu-ray player and some movies from a relative/friend though and that will most likely be the next upgrade i do to my PC.


In summation, I feel it has the potential to be a keeper but, the jury is still forming an opinion on the matter. Once I can get things dialed in a little bit more, I will run my usual gauntlet of comparison tests to previously owned sets but at this point it's going to mostly get compared to the VR-3730 as the gap between my ownership of the DX-32L230A12 and today is honestly to large to be reliable anymore barring the intensity of the black levels and their separation. That was one of the largest reasons I worked so quickly to get the VR-3730 to try and measure up to it.

On a closing note, I have yet to see a menu setting for "True Motion" despite it being on the label on the bezel of my TV and the display model. Perhaps it needs a 1080p signal for that to become available though. I should really dig through the owner's manual CD that came with the 32CS560. It also came with a microfiber cloth which I thought was a nice touch.

I also got to thinking about something involving the reduced number of inputs. It was like a cost saving measure since this line is allegedly supposed to be S-IPS only but, we'll see if that is actually true or not in the coming months.

I should also point out that the colours are a bit "bolder" on this set than the VR-3730 was but that's likely because there aren't a lot of menu options that get locked out using a DVI>HDMI signal on the 32CS560. In fact the only one I see locked out is the "movie mode" setting when it comes to picture settings and that's a pretty incredible thing. A lot of the sound settings are locked out but that shouldn't surprise anyone.


One last thing before I forget again. Select "Home" on this set. There is no reason to use "retail" as the manual explicitly states that "retail" mode will default any changed settings back to their defaults after a five minute time period. You are free to change back and forth in the TV menu should you need to (likely for when a display unit is sold to a customer).

Ok one more thing lol, the manual also points out that you should use HDMI>HDMI from the PC for the best signal so someone ought to test HDMI>HDMI for 4:4:4 if they can. It seems odd that they would point to that connection if it couldn't but it could always be the typical tagline of "HDMI is the best!!!1one!!oneone".

 

[Racer_J]

I cracked one open and first thing I noticed was the screen seems to be semi-gloss. Awesome! Happy to see this. Definitely not a very aggressive anti-glare coating. Update: I keep thinking of the TV's in terms of native PC displays. Semi Gloss is actually a lot more common with LCD / LED Tv's on 2nd thought. I will say that this 32" seems to have a bit more gloss than my 42" LG. Can't wait to see the display once it's on. Can't at the moment cause GF is sleeping. Very excited so far. I've been using Westy 37's for about the last 7 years maybe, W1 and a W3 and my LG 42" for about a year. I've always wanted to have a 32" eyefinity setup. Working on that now. I have high hopes for these 32" SC560's. It took me several weeks to dial in my LG 42LD450, thanks in part to the AVS community. I will be straight up with you, I about lost my mind and at several times thought I had made a huge mistake selling my Westy 37" W3. The biggest problem I had with the LG 42" was and it took me weeks to figure this out and this is on top of reading thousands of posts, was that installing the HDMI sound driver was killing my 4:4:4. Once I didn't install that drive, I have a perfect beautiful screen without any red bleeding all over the screen.

That may be why I don't see the "sparkle" or other typical complaints then. I've seen thinner but it looks pretty thin compared ot the coating on the DX-32L230A12. i meant to ask this in y previous reply but are you going portrait or landscape? I ask because portrait is bound to introduce some gamma shift at the top due to the increased distance from eye level. I can understand feeling regret on selling that 37" as it appears to be somewhat coveted and almost a "standard by which other LCDs are judged" for monitor usage. Yea that damn HDMI drive is the bane of existence. One day they will get it sorted though as TVs serving as monitors are going to get more and more common for the average consumer especially given the increased costs in large monitors due to the increased resolutions.

Set migration is no fun though as I am now doing it for the third time in a very short time period.

 

[Racer_J]

Just a minor update. I went ahead and did an AVS HD 709 tune (had to skip the grey ramps and anything that needed a colour filter) using MPC HCE (media player classic home cinema edition) on the PC with the DVI>HDMI signal. Since I am on XP, I used the video card's control panel video player section to tune rather than MPC HCE as XP doesn't actually allow MPC HCE to make changes to the brightness/contrast/colour (saturation) like W7 does. This provided some "interesting" results. The first of which is that my eyeball tune of video playback on the DX-32L230A12 was damn near spot on compared to my eyeball tune using AVS HD 709 as was the final video adjustment I made on the VR-3730. The second is, there is an awful lot of the playback of "Casino Royal" (the 2006 remake) on the LG 32CS560 that reminds me of the playback on the DX-32L230A12. The exception being the black levels but, the rest of it was pretty awesome looking so hooray for that.

Also I thought some of the LG owners were crazy as I have never seen this with the other sets I had but they aren't. The LG's actually emit light through their vent holes on the back of the TV. It's fairly dim on my wall but I currently have my backlight at 0. Even with the blacklight at 100 though, I wouldn't call it bright by any means. I also can't see it unless my eye level is above the top bezel.

One other update is there is a tiny amount of light bleed a few inches to the right of the center. There is a case screw in that location though and it's also near where the stand bolts on so I'll mess around with those later on in order to see if they can resolve the slight inperfection.

 

[SixFootDuo]

Racer, Im trying to find that tiny image of the modified Belle-Nuit so I can test 4:4:4. I've lost my local copy.

 

[SixFootDuo]

Racer, no longer need the Belle-Nuit image. So far under expert with edge enhance off, I have an outstanding picture with deep blacks. I am more than pleased.

Are you aware of anyone having gone through and setup expert with a full on ICC calibration yet on the SC560? I would be extremely interested in those settings.

I've used stock settings, under expert, turned edge enhance off and then used my Spyder 2 Pro to caliberate my display. Very very pleased with the picture and performance. No halo, crisp sharp text. Nice blacks, vibrant colors, no blurring. To my untrained eye, it looks very good. No doubt I could still benefit from a professional calibration. Given my limited resources, I think I've done very well.