LCD Televisions with 4:4:4 Subsampling and low Input Lag.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by SJetski71, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    I don't get it either. I only listed the 24" pixel density to have something at the extreme end of the spectrum. I didn't really notice any difference in clarity in PC usuage despite the pixel density difference between a 19" @ 1280x1024 vs a 32" @ 1920x1080. I did however notice it on the 37" @ 1920x1080 though as the pixels are larger and it results in a "screen door" effect along with a "shimmer" depending on your viewing angle if you are 3' or closer. Granted most people will probably not be that close but, I vary my viewing distance depending on what I am doing. Seeing the pixels does make it really easy to precisely line up my UI elements in WoW though.


    I did Google it but, every result that had that model and 4:4:4 in it had those words separated by "..." which is why I suggested it was a mismatch. I feel even stronger about that being the case now as one of the results was for "Dealbert" in reference to a "FatWallet" posting and the actual "FatWallet" posting is void of any 4:44 comments. I think this is why you can't find the original source of the comment. I don't think it actually exists.


    I totally agree which was why I said to try it out and that "you don't know till you know".

    The answers in the questions section at Walmart are "mixed" but, I did see some about DVI>HDMI where it didn't look as good as VGA. However, I have no idea what video cards they were using and it could be that none of them have any idea about EDID overrides, what needs to be enabled/disabled, etc. On the flip side of that I saw at least one comment where they thought DVI>HDMI looked good. I could speculate the complaints were involving Nvidia cards and the praise was involving an AMD/ATi card.
     
  2. SJetski71

    SJetski71 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Hey SixFootDuo,

    Besides the size, that Sceptre looks identical to my VR-3225, the buttons on the side, the bezel, the stand etc. It has more hdmi ports which means it's a different video board. Good chance it's a CMO assembly but CMO also uses Samsung S-PVA panels in addition to their own MVA variants, the 8ms refresh may signify S-PVA but we can't assume that. If i were rolling the dice i'd say there's a fair chance that 4:4:4 will work. Hard to believe they dropped the price that low, and 871 Walmart shoppers averaged 4 1/2 stars...

    Edit: i see Walmart also carries a 32" 1080P Sceptre E320GV-FHD, 60hz (Edit: just noticed it's Edge-Lit). The bezel and stand don't look familiar to me though. Shopjimmy.com claims it's mainboard is mated to an AUO A-MVA T315HW07 V.2. Reverse detective work at it's finest :p

    Edit # 2: Sceptre also has a 3D TV in a 32" size for only $369?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  3. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    That's a damn shame that it's edge lit. I would have seriously considered returning the VR-3730 for it if it had been CCFL. I might not have though as even though I adore the A-MVA screens, I have no idea what that set is actually capable of and I don't see the VR-3730 getting back in that price range until Westinghouse is ready to roll out their 2012 37" CCFL sets.

    Speaking of 32" CCFL sets, BestBuy has the 32LK450 on "sale" for $379.99 in case any of you were waiting for it to drop under $400 again.

    They also have an Insignia 39" on sale for $329.99 but, I don't know what it's capable of.



    Back to the VR-3730 real fast. I decided to bump the DPI up to 125% on XP (as that is the default for W7), installed the Sego UI font (and made it the default font), turned on/adjusted ClearType, and bumped the sharpness in the Nvidia control panel to 4%. This brought the text a little more into focus but, it also has made the white text on a black backgorund/black text on white background have some sort of weird colour sampling where parts of the white text looks yellow while the black text has some sort of weird green or blue tinge to it. This is entirely a result of ClearType so, I had to disable it and drop the sharpness back to 0% in the Nvidia control panel. I'm starting to think the softness around the edge of the fonts is a result of how XP is handling the fonts. I'm not sure if I am going to get my motherboard back prior to the return period being over so I may wipe an IDE drive I have, and install W7 Pro 32 to it. That won't entirely rule out the OS as I use W7 Pro 64 but this PC can not run 64 but surely they deal with fonts in the same way. That should leave the 6200 and its driver as the variable. I really hope it's an OS or video card issue but, I need to figure out what the deal is as I have to strain my eyes very hard to bring the fonts into "focus". It's not they are bad it's just that they are off enough for me to notice and if I cant get this resolved the VR-3730 will have to go back as I have no desire to stress my eyes. It may not be a way the OS is handling the fonts though as straining my eyes also brings the individual pixels of the background colours more into "focus" as well which would make me think it's a limitation of the screen which makes it incredibly difficult for your eyes to focus on it.

    I suppose I could increase the DPI further but, the fonts on the start bar and the browser tabs are already excessively large at 125%.

    I wish I could figure out what the issue is as it's just slightly off which is why I've been saying the edges of the fonts are "soft". It's not blurry/smudged like it is when you run at a resolution other than the native resolution of 1920x1080 but, something is just off with it. For clarification, this issue also exists on the VGA signal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
  4. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Apparently, this is just how text displays on "everything". I hooked the Samsung 930b up on the VGA signal and looked at text on it in cloned and at it's native resolution (1280x1024) and I had the same issue where I need to strain my eyes to slightly "focus" the text. That means I'm either starting to become overcritical of displays, it's something with the 6200 card/XP, or my eyes are "exhausted". I don't recall having this issue on the 930b in the past but, that doesn't rule out any of the aforementioned causes. Given that it's occurring on the 930b though, that should rule out it being something with the VR-3730.

    Speaking of the 930b, eww gross TN panel gamma shifts. It just looks so bad and obvious now. Granted MVA panels have gama shifts as well but I will take "fading/washing out" over "hue changes/photo negative" an day of the week. I thought I had it somewhat "calibrated" but it was super "warm" compared to the VR-3730. I got to wondering if maybe I had the VR-3730 a little to "cool" but then I thought about the video playback on it and the insane amount of colour on the Transformers move (the 1986 one) and decided the 930b was to "warm" so I made it match the VR-3730 as much as I could.


    Since I brought up colours on the VR-3730 during playback of the Transformers movie (the 1986 one), I was seriously starting to think I had it oversaturated. The pinks, greens, yellows, blues, etc. were pretty "vibrant" especially Hot Rod's "magenta" (80s style magenta when "hot/neons" were en vogue and not the actual shade of magenta). Then I saw Perceptor's "muted" blues and then Megatron and Optimus Prime and realized the colour levels were were I wanted them as Prime's red and blues were "subdued" and Megatron's greys were "om nom nom". Then I saw the pale yellow on the Dinobots that is supposed to represent "gold" and that clinched that the colour saturation was where it needed to be. I do wish the Devestator and the Constructicon's green were more pale and there are times where some of the purples come across as that's not the right shade but, it's animation so errors and discrepancies are going to happen especially when they "shading" something to try and mimic a lighting condition which wasn't typically done in this series.

    I'm used to bleeding out a lot of colour on my sets though rather than having them "sync" up with "proper" PC levels so, I'm going to give it some time and see if I can handle the "typical" saturation levels of cartoons. It's going to be rough getting used to seeing Francine's hair (from "American Dad") being "yellow" rather than a pale shade of it as well as skin tones in cartoons no longer being "cinematic". I like the way movies currently look so I'll likely just have to get used to cartoons looking how they are "supposed" to look. I blame the DX-32L230A12 and calibrating it for PC use for making me want that much colour in movies lol. I guess it really boils down to a battle over bad viewing habits vs "accuracy". I'm hoping accuracy wins but it's a lot harder to get used to colour saturation than it is to get used to brightness/contrast changes . . .
     
  5. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Ugh I need to goto bed lol. I decided to do a lag input test via FlatPanels test page like I did with the DX-32L230A12. The 6200 video card did something interesting. It was able to run the VR-3730 at the native resolution of (1920x1080) even with the Dell M991 connected. I took a picture at that resolution and then set it to 1600x900 (which is what I had to run the DX-32L230A12 at) and took a picture. I didn't take multiple shots because, I can't get the last three digits in focus. The phone has decided to stop working so I can't use the camera on it which is what I took pictures of the lag test on the DX-32L230A12 with. I had to use the Fuji Z10fd instead. The other interesting thing is despite the last 3 digits being blurry, the VR-3730 appears to really close in the time on the counter compared to the Dell M991. If that's the case, then the VR-3730 finally has something to brag about compared to the DX-32L230A12. Obviously these two pictures are subjective as the last three digits are blurry but, they'll have to do until I can figure out a way to make the Fuji Z10fd do a better job. That camera really needs more detailed settings rather than it just randomly deciding what shutter speed and F rating it wants to have based on the ISO speed and exposure settings.

    1920x1080

    [​IMG]

    1600x900

    [​IMG]


    I really need to find a way to get a better picture because, I would really like to confirm or disprove this even if we have no idea what the input lag on the Dell M991 is. If nothing else a better picture will allow for a direct comparison between the DX-32L230A12 and the VR-3730 (barring the currently different PC/OS/video card). I did a quick search but I didn't see anyone else that had actually "tested" the input lag on the VR-3730.
     
  6. justice strike

    justice strike n00bie

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    I'm contemplating getting a tv as a monitor as I have a need for a tv as well as a monitor. I was tempted to get a higher than 1080p monitor but as it seems right now, it's not supported by my laptop at all.

    in any case, I'm leaning towards getting a tv as i really don't see the added benefit of using a monitor. Add a couple of hundreds of euro's and your monitor is able to process a tv signal.

    Now, how far are tv's along nowadays? i understand they don't support the eco modes (is this still the case anno 2012? and then i mean Standby mode, power down etc..) and that the input lag is high (no problems for me as i hardly play games).

    However i do wonder about color reproduction and viewing angles... i'm not able to find a lot of info about this subject, and i was wondering if it makes sense to go for a tv instead of a monitor if you are thinking about doing something with photo's on a casual basis. and using the tv as a main screen. (my other option would otherwise be a 27 inch 1080p monitor which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, i rather get a 32 inch sony bravia)
     
  7. arl

    arl n00bie

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    I have purchased the LG 37LK450 and a DVI-HDMI cable from amazon. I intend to sit about 10 feet from the screen, and use large fonts to preserve my eyesight.

    My main computer has an I5-750 with integrated graphics (but I will not be gaming).

    My laptop has a Radeon 5650 but only has an HDMI port, no DVI.
     
  8. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    I don't think anyone has any experience with any 2012 sets as they are just starting to roll out and most of us recently picked up 2010 or 2011 sets.

    Eco modes are hit and miss. There are times when my VR-3730 turns itself off and there are times when it doesn't. I'm almost positive this is related to something running in the background as there are times when the PC won't even try to shut the video signal down which would result in a "no signal" message on the VR-3730.

    I don't have any calibration/testing equipment but my set looks fairly accurate for an eyeball tune and not having messed with the individual R/B/G settings in the video card's control panel. The white temperature may be a little off but, I just don't have a reliable way to tell. Even colour accurate monitors aren't really accurate until after they have been calibrated with calibration/testing equipment though. The advantage to a monitor is that you can usually find profiles to download and what settings to use on your monitor to get you close to accurate.

    Viewing angles are about the same on the different panels but, gamma shifts vary. I haven't seen an IPS panel in person but it's my understanding that these have the least amount of gamma shift from a viewing angle change. They also don't do black levels as well as a S-PVA panel does but, S-PVA panels don't do black levels as well as an A-MVA panel does. S-PVA panels also have a smaller "viewing cone" than A-MVA panels do which results in a more noticeable gamma shift for anything outside of that "viewing cone". You have to decide everything you are going to do or might do with your PC and then try to decide which panel type is the best for your needs and then try to find something with that type of panel. They all have their advantages, disadvantages, and proper uses.


    When picking a TV to use with your PC though, you can not lock yourself into a certain brand or model as you need it to be able to do 4:4:4 or the quality of the picture and text will suffer. It's getting harder and harder to find anything on the confirmed 4:4:4 list so you will likely be having to test out the TV you decide on, trying a bunch of troubleshooting on it, and possibly returning it.



    Your laptop might run into 4:4:4 issues as it will be HDMI>HDMI and very few TVs can do 4:4:4 over HDMI. You main computer might be able to do it but, I'm not sure if anyone has tried with onboard video in the past. The TV you bought should be capable of 4:4:4 though so it should just be an issue of getting your PC and laptop to output the 4:4:4 signal.
     
  9. Inu

    Inu [H]ard|Gawd

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    I understand that 4:4:4 is part of the subject of the thread, but don't assume someone won't be able to put up with the minor problems that result from this.
     
  10. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    The same could be said for assuming someone considers the lack of 4:4:4 minor. The lack of it doesn't just blur/smear text as it also does this to pictures, icons, or anything else that depends on colour separation. The number of people that are bothered by it is likely disproportionately higher than those that are not otherwise it wouldn't be discussed as often and in depth as it is. It's not just part of the subject of this thread. It's the main subject as people worry about I/PQ (image/picture quality) first then look to see if the input lag is acceptable or not as input lag won't matter if you don't like the way a display looks. Input lag is incredibly important as well and it's not my intent to downplay that but even with monitors, input lag gets trumped by the way something looks.

    If 4:4:4 didn't make a difference, you would see monitors that lack the ability over certain video inputs but you don't see monitors that lack this ability. I seriously doubt that's by happenstance when it comes to monitor design and production. Up until recently it was happenstance that a TV had it but, Sharp is now intentionally including it in their upper tier TVs and mentioning it in the marketing materials.


    It you were addressing my mention of 4:4:4 in relation to "Arl's" post he specifically mentioned that he bought a DVI>HDMI cable and text. While that may be the only viable digital signal from his PC to the TV, if he wasn't at least somewhat concerned about 4:4:4 he likely wouldn't have mentioned that the laptop would have to use a HDMI>HDMI signal and that the PC would be using DVI>HDMI.


    If you were addressing my mention of 4:4:4 in relation to "Justice Strike's" post, he brought up the possibility of occasionally messing with photos. It would be rather difficult to work with them if they involve text and certain colours next to each other as it's going to inaccurately display the separation due to the improper sub-sampling. It's pretty hard to change something on a picture that isn't actually there as the result of an improperly lit sub-pixel.
     
  11. arl

    arl n00bie

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    I thought this might be true based on what I have read so far in this thread. Thanks for your input, and I will definitely be posting my results.

    And yes, I specifically bought the LG (and DVI>HDMI cable) for 4:4:4, otherwise I probably would have bought the identically priced Panasonic with guaranteed IPS, or a 40" Sony for close to the same price.
     
  12. justice strike

    justice strike n00bie

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    That's quite odd though

    ok good enough for me. If pva or ips is the same as a monitor then i'm all set.

    i'm a bit divided on this. As a monitor i really don't need the viewing angles... but i might shift to use it as a tv later (say in 6 months) and then the viewing angles are quite usefull

    However i think most sony's nowadays support 4:4:4. Atleast the 520 series and the 720 (or am i just plain mistaken?)

    is this really a big problem? i really only have a hdmi connection on my laptop and from what i understand it just transfers a dvi signal over it. I could add a hdmi to dvi and dvi to hdmi convertor but that just seems silly. Also, if i go ahead with a tv that supports audio over hdmi (with 4:4:4 video) i should be ok with an hdmi - hdmi connection, s dvi has no audio connection. Again then the new samsung and sony tv's would be the ones to get (as they support 4:4:4 with audio over hdmi)

    4:4:4 is a must. No contest.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  13. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    No problem, I'll look forward to seeing what happens and I'm sure everyone will help to the best of their ability to sort your issues out should you run into them.


    Yea it's really odd. Initially I thought it was my cell phone when it was hooked up to a USB port but, I have seen the TV not want to power down and the PC not want to turn off the video output with the phone not connected. I'm fairly certain it's something with the Nokia "PCSuite" program as it behaves properly when that hasn't been running. There are times when it powers down correctly with that running though so I'm not positive it's the only source. Technically though, this TV shouldn't be able to power down via Windows as it actually isn't supposed to support that feature.


    They can be. Just remember there are panel and hardware variances from make/model and even within the same make/model. (e.g. This VR-3730 has required an extensive amount of tuning through the TV menu and the Nvidia control panel and the DX-32L230A12 didn't require any changes to the colour/video settings in the Nvidia control panel. The DX32L230A12 also looked better but, it was an A-MVA panel and the VR-3730 has a S-PVA panel so I knew the black levels wouldn't be as dark and the colours might not be as "deep".

    The largest variable with the TV will be 4:4:4, the factory tune, and how much of the factory tune you can alter. No one knows how to get into the service menu of the 2011 Westinghouse TVs so those are limited in what you can alter. If your super picky or love having an increased set of adjustments try to find something that you know you can access the service menu on.


    I wouldn't underestimate the viewing angles/gamma shift for use as a monitor but, that's just me and stuff like that stands out. To be fair, the "viewing cone" is affected by seating distance. The further back you are, the wider the "viewing cone" is and as a result you don't see the gamma shift to everything outside of the "viewing cone" like you would from sitting closer. If you're having trouble picturing this, imagine you are sitting about 2' away from a screen. Now imagine a circular pattern that almost touches the top and bottom edges of the screen but can't reach the left and right sides. Everything in this circular pattern is the "viewing cone" and that is the area where everything is going to look how you have it tuned. Everything outside of that area is going to have a numerically lower gamma (random example: everything in the cone is 2.2 and everything outside of the cone is 1.3) so everything outside of the "viewing cone" will be a bit washed out just like the entire screen would be from a viewing angle shift.

    If you plan on sitting close with a PVA screen on a TV (32"+), the "viewing" cone is really more of an issue than the viewing angle is. The viewing angle will move the viewing cone as well though as the center of it will always be at eye level. Again the easiest way to deal with it is to just increase the viewing distance. This will also allow to "cheat" on the viewing angle/gamma shift.

    What I just described though is one of the reasons why IPS panels have the foothold that they do in both the "high end" 1080p monitor bracket and in LCD TVs despite not having the darker black levels. It's my understanding that they lack the "viewing cone issue" (or at least to the extent of it being noticeable) as well as having less of an overall gamma shift. Again though, every panel has it's advantages/disadvantages and is the proper tool for the proper job. If someone were to merge the IPS and A-MVA panels though, it could be a glorious site to behold.


    I'm not entirely sure on this one as Sony wasn't in my price bracket so I didn't heavily research them. You should be ok with the 520s and 72x (720/723/729) stuff from the look of Pooh's working chart. That's assuming it doesn't depend on the screen size. However if Westinghouse is anything go by, the screen size doesn't matter as the VR-xxx series all supported 4:4:4 (I'm not sure about the 40" variants though).


    It can be. Some people haven't been able to get 4:4:4 via a HDMI>HDMI signal. I also believe that not all the sets that can do 4:4:4 over a HDMI>HDMI signal can do so with audio. There is a lot of cross chatter, miscommunication, and assumptions being made about having audio over a a working 4:4:4 HDMI>HDMI signal though. Working audio through a HDMI>HDMI 4:4:4 is also something I haven't heavily researched as I don't have a HDMI output on my pathetic and lowly 9500GT card. It doesn't help that Nvidia's HD audio driver is known for breaking 4:4:4 as well as the havoc that an "auto" driver install can set loose on an OS. IIRC, the way Nvidia handles audio is the entire reason you have to do the EDID override in the first place and it's why ATi/AMD cards don't require that.

    I'm not sure about adding in a HDMI>DVI>HDMI converter. It's possible it could trigger 4:4:4 but, I have a hunch that you will be the only person to have ever tried it should you need to. I agree that adding something like that in does seem silly though. Hopefully both you and "Arl" can trigger 4:4:4 over HDMI but, it might require a bit of research and hair pulling especially if no one else has figured out how to do it on the models yall are getting.
     
  14. justice strike

    justice strike n00bie

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    i'm in europe (well actually i'm in asia but i'll be moving to europe in 1.5 month). So westinghouse is not an option.

    Right now everything seems really difficult... i would like to get a high reso 25XX*1400 monitor but that seems to be a problem with hdmi... alternatively i would like a 27+ inch tv that just gives quality on par with a monitor... seems like neither is an option and i might have to resort to getting a 24 or 27 inch 1080p monitor.
     
  15. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Being out of the US complicates matters beyond just not having access to Westinghouse. Non-US variants aren't always capable of what US variants are and vice versa. The problem with a sub 32" TV is that they aren't really TVs. They are just TN monitors with TV tuners shoved into them so you have all the drawbacks of a 60 Hz TN monitor with all the potential problems with TV hardware. That may change if they will just start tossing e-IPS panels in them but, you would still have to be concerned about if the TV hardware is going to add lag, break 4:4:4, and other random issues.

    The issue with any monitor over 1080p is if it has a scaler it will introduce lag and if it doesn't have a scaler, your video card might not scale it properly or it may look like garbage. At least that's what I have gathered from bouncing in and out of the Catleap/Shimian threads. If I had a better video card and I knew it could scale a signal from a gaming console, I would seriously consider returning this VR-3730 and picking up one of those. As it stands now, I could swing the monitor but I just can't afford a video card upgrade, an input switch box to convert non HDMI signals to HDMI, purchasing a Squaretade warranty, or the potential of incapability with a signal from anything other than a PC. I really need to stop lurking in that thread lol.

    If you do decide to get a monitor though, there are plenty of options to choose from. You might want to consider a 23" though as they are considerably cheaper than a 24" if you are looking at the ones with the e-IPS screens. I personally felt the 27" 1080p monitors prices were absurd and that was prior to everyone finding out about the Catleap/Shimian monitors. I just didn't like the idea of paying $300+ for a 27" TN panel.


    Back to TVs and how they compare to monitors though. It depends on what you need them to compare to. For instance, the VR-3730 trumps the Samsung 930b monitor I was using in every way but, the 930b is an old 19" 4:3 ratio 60Hz TN monitor so it's not really hard to surpass it. At the same time, the DX-32L230A12 was better than the VR-3730 in a lot of different areas (and it kills me that it was discontinued before I could get a second replacement). I really wish more TVs used A-MVA panels but they don't and that's just the way it is. It's because of that though that I am going to have to "settle" on a S-PVA or an IPS panel. While the lack of a "viewing cone" and less gamma shifts of an IPS intrigue me, the issue of it not doing black levels as well as an S-PVA does not. That is a total turn off for me after having compared an A-MVA panel to a S-PVA one as there is a very noticeable difference in how much darker the black levels on an A-MVA will go. I don't think I could stand the black levels to be any lighter than they are right now. To be fair, with a light on in the room (anywhere where light gets cast in front of the TV) the black levels on a S-PVA will go pretty dark but, then you have glare and reflections on the screen which are distracting at best.

    The problem with TVs is that the quality varies enough as it is just comparing TVs to TVs and then trying to find one that can be properly used as a monitor makes it a bit more difficult. This is further complicated depending on where you live but, I suppose it could also be beneficial depending on where you live as well.
     
  16. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    I would love to find a LED backlit 32" Set that supports 4:4:4 with low latency. If I could buy 3 x LG LD32450 right now, new, I would. They are very hard to find now. I think I did find some but not at $500 - $600 each. And I guess LG didn't make a LK 32" for 2011.

    My LG 42LD450 is just an amazing screen and love it so much. I only wish it had a gloss display.

    I have the money for 3 x of those Catleap 27" but ........ 27" is too small for me.
     
  17. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    LG has a 32LK450 (which is the model refresh for the 32LD450) that is still for sale in some places but not many. IIRC correctly, Best Buy is the only place that is still stocking it. It still sells for $399.99 but they have it on sale off and on for around $379.99 or so. I think it dropped down to around $325 during Black Friday and during December as everyone was trying to deplete their stocks. Newegg had them in stock back in January but they sold out when they were on sale for $379.99 there. That's a CCFL set though not LED.

    Westinghouse has the LD-3280 which is an edge lit LED that is confirmed as doing 4:4:4 but I don't think anyone tested the input lag on it as they were disappointed with the I/PQ (image/picture quality) of it compared to the VR-3225 which was the CCFL version. I think that is the only LED line that has been tested here and at AVS (or rather the only one anyone has posted about).
     
  18. Porter_

    Porter_ [H]ardness Supreme

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    you should think about the Samsung UN32D5500 which should be getting closed out for the 2012 models. edge-lit LED, glossy screen (slight AG, i.e. you can see reflections but the edges of the reflections are blurred), low input lag but slow pixel response since it's a VA panel. as far as 4:4:4 subsampling goes i believe it passes but my shitty camera was distorting the image. take a look at my post here. it also has pretty thin bezels if you're considering eyefinity. the downside is it's a little pricey, well and the inherent flaws of edge-lit LED's.

    FYI some info being discussed over on AVSforum: it looks like Samsung's low-end 2012 models are no longer edge-lit LED but instead 'direct LED' lighting which is a cheaper technique that results in a thicker display (looks like a CCFL set from the outside). the benefit is it's cheaper to manufacture but some AVSforum members are speculating it could also reduce the screen uniformity problems caused by edge-lit LED's.

    edit: 2012 Samsung UN32EH5000
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  19. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    So the Samsung UN32EH5000 does pass the 4:4:4 test? I wonder how the picture looks on this set. I'm actually excited that the screen is semi-glossy and the bezels are thin.
     
  20. Porter_

    Porter_ [H]ardness Supreme

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    i don't know if the UN32EH5000 passes 4:4:4 or if it's a glossy screen.
     
  21. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ahh, ok. I will assume that it doesn't. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

    If anyone is aware of a 32" glossy screen display that supports 4:4:4, low latency, please do chime in.

    I've spent hours upon hours searching.
     
  22. arl

    arl n00bie

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    Just received my LG 37LK450 from Amazon. Packaging was very beaten up, and there was a loose screw floating around inside of the TV which fell out. Based on serial number it is an IPS with a manufacture date of 2/2012.

    Plugged in via HDMI>DVI cable, and it fails 4:4:4, but plugged in with VGA cable it seems to pass (and picture is generally much better.) I do not have a regular HDMI cable.

    When I try to follow the guide for EDID override, the phoenix utility does not seem to be able to detect the LG. I would appreciate if someone could help me with this.
     
  23. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Sorry to hear ab out the shipping and screw incident. That's odd that Phoenix won't pick up the TV. Glad to hear you got an IPS panel though (assuming you wanted it).

    I did a quick search but couldn't get a result with the numbers you need. However, I did find a post in this thread from Pooh about using MonInfo to get the numbers you need. The numbers you need are in the red rectangle in the following picture:

    [​IMG]


    Also if you want to "tune" your TV, Ryz is using the following settings on his 37LK450 but I need to stress he is using a very specific colour profile on his PC so you may not like it.

     
  24. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    I took some pictures of my 42LG50 and wanted to post the results, but I am limited to my phone currently. So let me describe what I see and hope it helps until I get a way to upload the photos.

    Using my PS3 over HDMI at 1080p24 I took a pic of some subtitles and could see that every other field was noticeably dimmer.

    After hooking up my sig rig over DVI->VGA I took pics of the user login text and text within media player classic. Every field was the same brightness and text was sharp.

    What should I be looking for to determine if this set is using 4:4:4?
     
  25. SJetski71

    SJetski71 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wrong model number. The model you have may determine the advice you receive ;)

    But otherwise you should be checking out different shades of red and blue text.


    Edit: here's a quick and dirty test: http://www.vanity.dk/tft/monitorTest_scale.html

    Mouse over to the top of the screen to make the menu appear, click the "text" link, then adjust the sliders to give you a dark background, and adjust the other sliders to give you different colored text. They should all remain sharp for true 4:4:4.
     
  26. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    If it was doing 4:4:4 over HDMI>HDMI (or DVI>HDMI which you can't do with a PS3), it would look incredibly similar if not the same as your HDMI>VGA signal. This is an assumption in your case though as I have no idea how a PS3 handles a VGA signal. The assumption is that it handles it the same way a PC would. The number of TVs that will do 4:4:4 on a PC from just plugging in a DVI>HDMI signal is low as most are not "plug n' play" in that reguard. The number of TVs that can do 4:4:4 over a HDMI>HDMI signal is even smaller.

    That having been said, you need to use the following images on a PC to verify 4:4:4 as I don't know if the PS3 does anything to the image scale or how it renders the images. Feel free to look at them on the PS3 though.


    In case you can not view attachments at AVS, here is the Belle-Nuit Method image:

    [​IMG]


    In case you can not view attachments at AVS, here is the bspvette86 Test image:

    [​IMG]


    You can further verify the results using the following information:

     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  27. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Looks like Sjetski beat me but that's only because my fingers were furiously coding my last post lol.
     
  28. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is the model printed on the back of the tv and in the user manual. What other model information should I be looking?
     
  29. SJetski71

    SJetski71 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    hehe, but better, more thorough replies always take more time ;)

    It's incomplete, that model # you posted doesn't exist.

    I suspect you have either a 42LD450 or a 42LK450, but there are a couple of other possibilities.

    Edit: never mind, and my apologies, i should have google searched the model # because it obviously does exist. It's a 2008 model. Thank you for pointing it out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  30. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Sjetski assumed that the model number would be something like 32LD450 or 32LK450. I admittedly made the same assumption until I Googled it.

    Try these settings on your HDMI>HDMI signal:


    The official Lg 42LG50 owner's thread @ AVS may also have some information buried in it but I didn't have time to go through it.
     
  31. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    Here is the tv on LG's site if it helps: http://m.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-42LG50-lcd-tv
     
  32. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks for the detailed and quick reply. Also thanks for the picture test as my main rig lacks an internet connection, so I can transfer the pics from my phone to test. :)
     
  33. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    No problem, just snap some pictures of those images being displayed so we can help you verify 4:4:4 is running. I should also point out how those images need to be viewed as the OS can mess with their scale depending on what you use to view them and how you use it.


    I also added how to view the test images to the post I made regaurding them so that it is more concise.
     
  34. SJetski71

    SJetski71 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    My apologies, that model obviously does exist, apparently the LG50 is one of their 2008 models.
     
  35. arl

    arl n00bie

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    I was able to get the numbers

    [​IMG]

    I am using a radeon 4350

    editing the registry with the the following code did not work:

    Code:
    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Video\{DAA8F38D-1B26-433F-B910-6DDF47CAD51F}\0000]
    "OverrideEdidFlags0"=hex:1E,6D,01,00,00,00,FF,FF,04,00,00,00 ,7E,01,00
    I also tried replacing the path 'ControlSet001" with CurrentControlSet", since I was not sure where it should go.

    What I cannot understand, is that in the LK450 thread it seemed that using a HDMI-DVI cable means that the EDID override is not necessary with an ATI card.

    Furthermore, the picture quality when using the VGA cable is significantly better than HDMI-VGA... leads me to believe that I am missing something obvious.
     
  36. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    "CurrentControlSet" is the advised one.


    I didn't realize this issue was on your laptop. I thought this was on your desktop. ATi can't make use of the EDID override to my knowledge as it is a Nvidia workaround due to a bug/flaw with how the Nvidia drivers work.

    The problem here is that you are using a HDMI>HDMI signal. To my knowledge, the xxLK450 sets do not do 4:4:4 over HDMI>HDMI. Going by alaskajoel's post @ AVS it won't do it over HDMI>HDMI. However, Impaque's post @ AVS it will if you rename the HDMI1 input to "PC" (without the quotation marks) but, it will disable the adjustments in the TV menu. Those are two very conflicting reports about HDMI>HDMI and 4:4:4 on the 37LK450. You might want to try renaming the HDMI1 input on the TV though.


    *EDIT*

    Impaque wasn't specific about what settings get locked out when you rename the HDMI1 port to "PC". Based on other TVs though, I'm betting it's the Colour (saturation), Tint, and Sharpness settings. It's nothing to be alarmed about as the TV would do this even if you used a DVI>HDMI cable. The reason why is it because it causes the TV to "see" the connection as a PC and these settings are disabled so that they will not degrade the I/PQ (image/picture quality) from the PC signal. You can adjust the Colour (saturation) and Tint in your video card's control panel should you actually need to do so. There should be no reason to adjust the sharpness though as it will have a negative impact on the I/PQ. The Colour (saturation) was the biggest change for me on the VR-3730 because it helped correct the colour gamma and made the colours look proper rather than garish.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  37. arl

    arl n00bie

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    Thanks! Renaming the HDMI1 input to PC did the trick. The difference is immediately noticeable without any test.

    I am actually using my PC with an HDMI-DVI cable, I had not realized that I had the radeon in the box. I am finding that my eyes fell strained sitting at 10 feet even with the font size way up. I am at 1600X900.
     
  38. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    Ah ok, I assumed the PC would have had Nvidia or Intel since it's an Intel CPU. Glad to hear that renaming the HDMI1 input got it working for you though. If you decide to run the native resolution of 1920x1080 and run into 4:4:4 issues again, make sure the overscan on the TV is off and that your ATi control center has it's overscan set to 0% as well. I thought the difference in 4:4:4 was pretty staggering myself but, some people think otherwise. Everyone has different eyes, sets, variables, and experiences though.



    While we're talking about EDID overrides, it's probably time for a reminder about how to do them since we are on page 22 and it's not really been discussed in depth except for links to AVS that link elsewhere. I think there was a post earlier in this thread about it though. In case, just remember that this is for Nvidia cards and it's a last ditch effort after you have tried everything else possible as it can break HDCP (high definition copy protection) and, it can disable audio out over the DVI or HDMI ports from your video card.

     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
  39. TYoda

    TYoda Gawd

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    Many thanks to Racer_J for the above post on the EDID override how to. I just picked up a vr-3730 today and the above video card tweak worked like a charm for me using DVI-HDMI. Everything looks much better now. Many thanks.
     
  40. Racer_J

    Racer_J Gawd

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    I just relayed the information and edited in a few things that could be a potential "stumping point" for some people that I inadvertently ran into.


    How do you like your VR-3730 so far?