Is the mining thing slowing down?

A bit off topic, but in regards to buying used cars that were mining. My understanding is that when bitcoin mining was new folks were pushing the cards to the limit. All that heat and voltage resulted in failing cards. But in recent times (1-2 years?) miners have gotten smarter about underclocking and/or undervolting in order to save on power costs and to keep the cards working long term. So the risks on used mining cards is probably less than what it once was.
 
biggles said:
A bit off topic, but in regards to buying used cars that were mining. My understanding is that when bitcoin mining was new folks were pushing the cards to the limit. All that heat and voltage resulted in failing cards. But in recent times (1-2 years?) miners have gotten smarter about underclocking and/or undervolting in order to save on power costs and to keep the cards working long term. So the risks on used mining cards is probably less than what it once was.
Click to expand...
that's their theory, guess we'll see...
 
thebufenator said:
Good for you, no one cares.
Click to expand...

It’s funny how the only people who defend buying used mining cards are the ones who sell used mining cards.

biggles said:
A bit off topic, but in regards to buying used cars that were mining. My understanding is that when bitcoin mining was new folks were pushing the cards to the limit. All that heat and voltage resulted in failing cards. But in recent times (1-2 years?) miners have gotten smarter about underclocking and/or undervolting in order to save on power costs and to keep the cards working long term. So the risks on used mining cards is probably less than what it once was.
Click to expand...

It’s less but a lot of people just look at the amount of hours on the cards, and the environment they are run in. Typically mining cards are run 24/7 in harsher conditions than someone who uses a card for general computing and gaming. Personally I think there is a difference in the mindset of the users too. Generally miners see video cards as tools to make money. Gamers and system builders generally have a greater pride of ownership. There’s exceptions, I’m just talking generally.
 
AltTabbins said:
It’s funny how the only people who defend buying used mining cards are the ones who sell used mining cards.
​
Click to expand...

I just bought 9 used 1070 cards (PNY 1070 XLR8) used for mining by the previous owner.

I have no doubt in their ability to run long term. I'll be mining with them myself.

right now they are running at 75% power, 570Mhz memory overclock, 0 core clock boost at 52* C. The fans are running at 42% at the auto setting.
 
pendragon1 said:
for me that's enough I wouldn't buy a used miner card again
Click to expand...

I'd agree. Sadly, most of the used cards are tainted with the stigma that they could be miner cards, even if they weren't.


In other news, my earnings have been up significantly this week.
I also only mine with 2 cards on my gaming machines when they aren't in use. As I contend that everyon with a card should.

If your mining interests rise or fall within a month or two time span, you are doing it wrong.
 
AltTabbins said:
It’s funny how the only people who defend buying used mining cards are the ones who sell used mining cards.
Click to expand...

most miners do not claim their gains on their tax forms - they are used to lying so nothing new here
 
_l_ said:
most miners do not claim their gains on their tax forms - they are used to lying so nothing new here
Click to expand...

lol what? Most serious miners push tens of thousands straight into their bank accounts. Of course they claim taxes.
 
_l_ said:
most miners do not claim their gains on their tax forms - they are used to lying so nothing new here
Click to expand...

Dude cmon.

I know you are upset that cards have been expensive and hard to get for awhile, but there is no sense in insulting millions of folks who are making some money by utilizing the technology at their disposal.

If anything, be upset at the companies who refuse to meet demand, or be upset at the environment that has been created that makes it impossible for new competitors to come to the market.

Frankly, I think it's foolish for those of you with a decent card to not be running something like NiceHash when you arent using your machine. But it leaves more profits for me, I guess.
 
_l_ said:
most miners do not claim their gains on their tax forms - they are used to lying so nothing new here
Click to expand...

IRS Notice 2014-21

From the notice, their example:

“…[A]ssume you mine 1 bitcoin in 2013,” the government tax agency writes. “On the day it was mined, the market price of bitcoin was $1,000. You have $1,000 of taxable income in 2013. Going forward, your basis in the bitcoin is $1,000. If you later sell the bitcoin for $1,200, you have a taxable gain of $1,200 – $1,000 = $200.”



No taxes if you haven't sold.

You have a cost basis, yes - but no sell = no realized gains/losses = no tax.

Not everyone sells.

Anything else, armchair warrior?
 
atp1916 said:
IRS Notice 2014-21

From the notice, their example:

“…[A]ssume you mine 1 bitcoin in 2013,” the government tax agency writes. “On the day it was mined, the market price of bitcoin was $1,000. You have $1,000 of taxable income in 2013. Going forward, your basis in the bitcoin is $1,000. If you later sell the bitcoin for $1,200, you have a taxable gain of $1,200 – $1,000 = $200.”



No taxes if you haven't sold.

You have a cost basis, yes - but no sell = no realized gains/losses = no tax.

Not everyone sells.

Anything else, armchair warrior?
Click to expand...


He is talking about this Captain Smartass http://fortune.com/2018/02/12/bitcoin-cryptocurrency-tax-taxes/

"Early data from one popular tax preparation service shows that only a minuscule proportion—just .04%—of U.S. tax filers have reported their cryptocurrency gains and losses to the Internal Revenue Service so far this year. That's far fewer than the 7% of Americans who are estimated to own Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency". So basically most you "MINERS" are FUCKING LYING. I highly doubt that's changed in 2 months since the article first appeared. Watch the news 3-4 months when charges start coming down. Bye!
 
SnowBeast said:
He is talking about this Captain Smartass http://fortune.com/2018/02/12/bitcoin-cryptocurrency-tax-taxes/

"Early data from one popular tax preparation service shows that only a minuscule proportion—just .04%—of U.S. tax filers have reported their cryptocurrency gains and losses to the Internal Revenue Service so far this year. That's far fewer than the 7% of Americans who are estimated to own Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency". So basically most you "MINERS" are FUCKING LYING. I highly doubt that's changed in 2 months since the article first appeared. Watch the news 3-4 months when charges start coming down. Bye!
Click to expand...

How's that butthurt feel right now?
 
Well that was fun. I'm out before the hammer starts a swinging.



zGHQb4O.gif
 
Wow 7% own or mine Bitcoins?

Who came up with that figure?

I can't find 7% of people who have the foggiest idea what a bitcoin even is.

Most the people I talk to think its a virus. :LOL:

Of course, I'm in the middle of Kansas, which isn't really known for "high tech" anything...
 
If someone owns bitcoin that didn't mine it. And did not go thru an exchange then how are you going to know they have bitcoin? It's not like you need to put you name on a form.
 
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biggles said:
A bit off topic, but in regards to buying used cars that were mining. My understanding is that when bitcoin mining was new folks were pushing the cards to the limit. All that heat and voltage resulted in failing cards. But in recent times (1-2 years?) miners have gotten smarter about underclocking and/or undervolting in order to save on power costs and to keep the cards working long term. So the risks on used mining cards is probably less than what it once was.
Click to expand...

What they don’t tell you is how high they crank up the vram clocks. They pretend like they’re doing you a favor by selling you a mining card that was under bolted but they were a,so pushing memory speeds that would be nowhere near stable during gaming.
 
RamonGTP said:
pushing memory speeds that would be nowhere near stable during gaming.
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ughh... so?

If it's stable during mining at 75% or even 65% power target on the card it isn't hurting a darn thing, by turning the memory up. My cards run cooler while mining 24/7 than they do while gaming a couple hours.

I run my pair of 1080TI mining/gaming cards in my daily use machine at 585 MHz overclock on memory and 75% power target. They've been 100% rock solid for about 10 months now. Not one crash.

I have a couple saved configs in afterburner and if I try 585Mhz memory overclock on games, yes it locks up. But I mine daily with the memory at +585Mhz, and reset the cards to default stock settings for gaming.

So what -- in regards to the memory overclock while mining??? The game is obviously utilizing memory differently than a mining operation, and the cards are no worse for gaming when restored to default settings - I've not had a single issue.
 
Archaea said:
ughh... so?

If it's stable during mining at 75% or even 65% power target on the card it isn't hurting a darn thing, by turning the memory up. My cards run cooler while mining 24/7 than they do while gaming a couple hours.

I run my pair of 1080TI mining/gaming cards in my daily use machine at 585 MHz overclock on memory and 75% power target. They've been 100% rock solid for about 10 months now. Not one crash.

I have a couple saved configs in afterburner and if I try 585Mhz memory overclock on games, yes it locks up. But I mine daily with the memory at +585Mhz, and reset the cards to default stock settings for gaming.

So what -- in regards to the memory overclock while mining??? The game is obviously utilizing memory differently than a mining operation, and the cards are no worse for gaming when restored to default settings - I've not had a single issue.
Click to expand...

Pushing memory clocks to speeds that cause artifacts and crashes in games is hurting something. If it was as harmless as you’re pretending you and others would disclose how high you pushed the clocks when you try to sell the cards, just as freely as you disclose how kind you were to your card by lowering power target.

If you think lowering power target gives you free reign to crank vram as high as you’d like with zero harm, you’re an idiot or pretending to be an idiot. Take your pick.
 
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RamonGTP said:
Pushing memory clocks to speeds that cause artifacts and crashes in games is hurting something. If it was as harmless as you’re pretending you and others would disclose how high you pushed the clocks when you try to sell the cards, just as freely as you disclose how kind you were to your card by lowering power target.
Click to expand...

I do...

and perhaps it's not me that is the idiot.

I've had my hands on just about 60 cards to mine with. I've only had one Vega 56 fail and need to be RMA'ed, and I think it was a failed card to begin with because it was flakey from day 1.

I have 0 issue disclosing everything I've done with the cards - with 100% transparency -- and have done so in the cards I've sold -- most often passing on the settings I've found stable to the buyer so they can pick up on their mining easily.

Or perhaps you never wondered why one miner has no problem buying used cards from the next miner?
 
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atp1916 said:
IRS Notice 2014-21

From the notice, their example:

“…[A]ssume you mine 1 bitcoin in 2013,” the government tax agency writes. “On the day it was mined, the market price of bitcoin was $1,000. You have $1,000 of taxable income in 2013. Going forward, your basis in the bitcoin is $1,000. If you later sell the bitcoin for $1,200, you have a taxable gain of $1,200 – $1,000 = $200.”



No taxes if you haven't sold.

You have a cost basis, yes - but no sell = no realized gains/losses = no tax.

Not everyone sells.

Anything else, armchair warrior?
Click to expand...

Just to clarify on this, in the example listed, you do pay income tax on the $1k of "fair value" in the year it was mined regardless of whether you sell it or not. That fair value then becomes your cost basis to which you pay short or long-term gains/losses on depending on holding period and price you sell at.
 
Archaea said:
I do...

and perhaps it's not me that is the idiot.

I've had my hands on just about 60 cards to mine with. I've only had one Vega 56 fail and need to be RMA'ed, and I think it was a failed card to begin with because it was flakey from day 1.

I have 0 issue disclosing everything I've done with the cards - with 100% transparency -- and have done so in the cards I've sold -- most often passing on the settings I've found stable to the buyer so they can pick up on their mining easily.

Or perhaps you never wondered why one miner has no problem buying used cards from the next miner?
Click to expand...

Well lets see... Are you of the opinion that clocking your VRAM to levels that would lockup and/or artifact nearly any game you play, is perfectly safe for the card?

Your answer to this question will also answer the idiot question.
 
RamonGTP said:
Well lets see... Are you of the opinion that clocking your VRAM to levels that would lockup and/or artifact nearly any game you play, is perfectly safe for the card?

Your answer to this question will also answer the idiot question.
Click to expand...

Unstable overclocks do not harm hardware. This is overclocking 101 here.

Hardware is harmed by temperature spikes at the transistor level, either through too high whole-chip temperatures or extreme voltage producing micro hotspots.
 
KazeoHin said:
Unstable overclocks do not harm hardware. This is overclocking 101 here.

Hardware is harmed by temperature spikes at the transistor level, either through too high whole-chip temperatures or extreme voltage producing micro hotspots.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you brought that up.

Overclocking 101 tells you that clock speeds are how fast the transistors are switching each second
Physics 101 tells you faster switching = more leakage and higher temps

So, thanks for agreeing? I guess. Maybe a review of those classes might be in order.

Good luck trying to convince anyone who's not lying to themselves or others that unstable VRAM overclocks are perfectly safe. At the very least this thread is shedding light that miners do in fact OC to unstable levels... Now you're just down to trying to argue that it's ok.
 
KazeoHin said:
Unstable overclocks do not harm hardware. This is overclocking 101 here.

Hardware is harmed by temperature spikes at the transistor level, either through too high whole-chip temperatures or extreme voltage producing micro hotspots.
Click to expand...


What you said doesn't make any sense at all. That's like saying...

"McDonalds doesn't cause diarrhea. Diarrhea is caused by eating food like hamburgers or chicken nuggets from fast food establishments". Overclocking/volting your vram causes the symptoms you list as things that are harmful to hardware.
 
AltTabbins said:
What you said doesn't make any sense at all. That's like saying...

"McDonalds doesn't cause diarrhea. Diarrhea is caused by eating food like hamburgers or chicken nuggets from fast food establishments". Overclocking/volting your vram causes the symptoms you list as things that are harmful to hardware.
Click to expand...
RamonGTP said:
I'm glad you brought that up.

Overclocking 101 tells you that clock speeds are how fast the transistors are switching each second
Physics 101 tells you faster switching = more leakage and higher temps

So, thanks for agreeing? I guess. Maybe a review of those classes might be in order.

Good luck trying to convince anyone who's not lying to themselves or others that unstable VRAM overclocks are perfectly safe. At the very least this thread is shedding light that miners do in fact OC to unstable levels... Now you're just down to trying to argue that it's ok.
Click to expand...

You can lower voltages to the point of a chip not being stable, this does no harm to it.

prove me wrong.
 
KazeoHin said:
You can lower voltages to the point of a chip not being stable, this does no harm to it.

prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

280.jpg


Talk about two fail psots in a row.

First your own "overclocking 101" comment backfires and now it becomes clear you have no idea what is even being discussed.

I can only guess that you didn't bother reading at all, or have no idea what the difference components are on a video card or what lowering voltage actually does. Please tell me how lowering your GPU voltage is going to help give longevity to your unstable VRAM overclock genius.
 
RamonGTP said:
View attachment 68809

Talk about two fail psots in a row.

First your own "overclocking 101" comment backfires and now it becomes clear you have no idea what is even being discussed.

I can only guess that you didn't bother reading at all, or have no idea what the difference components are on a video card or what lowering voltage actually does. Please tell me how lowering your GPU voltage is going to help give longevity to your unstable VRAM overclock genius.
Click to expand...

The fact that they are unstable tells us, what, that the voltages are too high?


oh wait, it's the exact opposite...
 
This "bitching" about mining or gaming cards needs to stop! It is getting old people, move on and deal with your taxes and butthurt feelings! I will tell you this, I have purchased 8 used mining cards that were used for mining and gaming. The owners were honest with me, to this day since I started mining since early feb 2018. The cards are still mining and I am nearly 50% through of breaking even!

Mining is growing on me, I can buy parts from newegg damn it! I can buy hookers and blow! People and business are open to crypocurrency, I am all for it!
 
KazeoHin said:
The fact that they are unstable tells us, what, that the voltages are too high?


oh wait, it's the exact opposite...
Click to expand...

nice try. but you're arguments are getting dumber. Is this pretty common among miners?

The fact that it's unstable isn't telling you it's too low. It in fact isn't too low, it's exactly where it should be. It might be too low for the OVER-clock you're trying to run but it's not too low. Since your VRAM voltage isn't changing but your clock speeds are, you ARE increasing temps, so by your very own example of what can cause failures, overclocking your memory can cause failure.

In the future, if you want to avoid the humiliation of proving the other guys point, you should actually know what you're talking about if you decide to engage in a debate.
 
RamonGTP said:
nice try. but you're arguments are getting dumber. Is this pretty common among miners?

The fact that it's unstable isn't telling you it's too low. It in fact isn't too low, it's exactly where it should be. It might be too low for the OVER-clock you're trying to run but it's not too low. Since your VRAM voltage isn't changing but your clock speeds are, you ARE increasing temps, so by your very own example of what can cause failures, overclocking your memory can cause failure.

In the future, if you want to avoid the humiliation of proving the other guys point, you should actually know what you're talking about if you decide to engage in a debate.
Click to expand...

you have yet to humiliate anyone (maybe yourself).

Let me break down the facts in small words, so you can understand.

Making chips run fast does not hurt chips.

Making chips run hot does hurts chips.

Making chips run fast does make chips run a little hotter.

Making chips run fast does not make chips run hot.

Adding volts to chips does make them run a lot hotter.

In order to give chips an owie, you need to make chips run really really hot.

Making chips run really really fast but do not give chips much volts, they don't get really really hot, instead they make silly mistakes.

Chips that make silly mistakes don't have enough volts.

If your chip is making silly mistakes, you aren't giving it enough volts to run at its speed.

If your chip is making silly mistakes, it isn't running as hot as a it would be if it had enough volts to not make silly mistakes

So, to sum up today's lesson:

If someone is running a chip at unstable speeds, they aren't giving it enough volts. Temperature increases linearly with clockspeed. Temperatures scale exponentially with voltage. When someone runs certain speeds unstably, they're actually LESS likely to damage the chip than someone running the exact same speeds stably (given the same quality silicon). Why? because the stability requires voltage.

Accusing someone of damaging a chip because they ran it at unstable clocks is like accusing someone of ruining a car because they constantly ran it with a low tank of fuel. In other words, it's completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with chip longevity.


To be clear: I'm not saying that someone running a chip unstably has no chance of harming the chip, other behaviours can cause harm. What I'm saying that instability alone does not provide any evidence that a chip is being harmed.
 
Someone has a pointy stick up their butt.

I'll continue to mine. I'll also continue to sell my video cards for a profit over what I paid for them.

I think I'll have my cake and eat it too. Feels good, man.
 
KazeoHin said:
you have yet to humiliate anyone (maybe yourself).

Let me break down the facts in small words, so you can understand.

Making chips run fast does not hurt chips.

Making chips run hot does hurts chips.

Making chips run fast does make chips run a little hotter.

Making chips run fast does not make chips run hot.

Adding volts to chips does make them run a lot hotter.

In order to give chips an owie, you need to make chips run really really hot.

Making chips run really really fast but do not give chips much volts, they don't get really really hot, instead they make silly mistakes.

Chips that make silly mistakes don't have enough volts.

If your chip is making silly mistakes, you aren't giving it enough volts to run at its speed.

If your chip is making silly mistakes, it isn't running as hot as a it would be if it had enough volts to not make silly mistakes

So, to sum up today's lesson:

If someone is running a chip at unstable speeds, they aren't giving it enough volts. Temperature increases linearly with clockspeed. Temperatures scale exponentially with voltage. When someone runs certain speeds unstably, they're actually LESS likely to damage the chip than someone running the exact same speeds stably (given the same quality silicon). Why? because the stability requires voltage.

Accusing someone of damaging a chip because they ran it at unstable clocks is like accusing someone of ruining a car because they constantly ran it with a low tank of fuel. In other words, it's completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with chip longevity.


To be clear: I'm not saying that someone running a chip unstably has no chance of harming the chip, other behaviours can cause harm. What I'm saying that instability alone does not provide any evidence that a chip is being harmed.
Click to expand...

It's not instability alone. It's instability due to overclocking. You did not under volt your VRAM, you overclocked it you increased leakage you increased temps. That right there is evidence, deduced by YOUR VERY OWN interpretations of what can cause failures. Now you're trying ot say "well yeah, but only if it gets very hot"

What's very hot? Whats a little hotter? and at what duration at these random temps is ok or not ok? You haven't the slightest clue. You got caught up in your own failed arguments and now you're virtually regurgitating random piles of shit to see what sticks.
 
RamonGTP

What memory clock speeds can you run on your 1080ti for the game or futuremark demo loop of your choice?

Screen print it and send it to me. I’ll match it on my 1080ti that I’ve mined with for nine months at my 585mhz memory overclock and screen print it back.

Let’s put your theory to work!!!


BTW in answer to your other question. I set a temp limit in afterburner lower than stock. I typically pick 70-75*C as my temp limit. (And 65-75% power target). Stock is 84* and in gaming most of the 1080ti I’ve tried. (About 8 different cards) will easily mosey on up to that 84*C. If that was so damaging do you think Nvidia would allow it? I recently built a system for a friend at work with a brand new Titan XP, it also climbed to 84* and throttles in an open air case within 20 minutes of gaming. But when mining —- never do I let them hit that max temp. It’s actually worse for profits to let the cards run at stock settings because of the thermal throttling and subsequent downclocking that occurs.
 
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thebufenator said:
How many video cards have you sold there failed on the buyers?
Click to expand...

Zero, I also haven't over clocked to levels that are unstable in games. The only difference between my mining profile and gaming profile is my power target in gaming is 100% I don't have dedicated mining cards.

Beyond that, the only mining card I've sold was mined on for about a week, notice I only quote the part of your post that said, I'll continue to mine.
 
Archaea said:
RamonGTP?

What memory clock speeds can you run on your 1080ti for the game or futuremark demo loop of your choice?

Screen print it and send it to me. I’ll match it on my 1080ti that I’ve mined with for nine months at my 585mhz memory overclock and screen print it back.

Let’s put your theory to work!!!
Click to expand...

What theory are you trying to put to work exactly?
 
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