How Intel Feels about PC Users

I don't disagree with it from a business point of view. Not like processor horsepower matters much as a gamer anyway. For that matter, it doesn't matter much for anyone who isn't working in multimedia and design.
 
dgz said:
I am always the one who makes a fool of himself :(
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:D

What I'm really interested in is that gigantic OTHER section. You'd think if it was a supported language, it could be represented a bit better than that. I'd bet a large portion is Brabantian Flemish though. It has to be. :D
 
Given this, should we truly expect Intel to take Raja's talents and bring GPUs racing back into a real desktop gaming environment?
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Not at all. I assume the GPU tech's primary purpose is to fill their product gap in the expanding AI/compute market. Any "gaming" products will just be a side market for them.

The target here is not AMD's GPU offering. It's Nvidia's AI offering, they're one of few with a compute cruncher built for data centers. They're owning this space and Intel wants a piece of the marketshare.
 
dgz said:
They speak portugese?
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B-r-a-z-i-l-i-a-n!

They took our wood and shit, we took their language. The damn portuguese can either procreate more and have enough numbers to matter, or just piss off! HAUHAEUHAEUHEAUHEAUHAEUEHA

:D
 
I don’t know if all those consumers are stupid. Some might just be enthusiasts starving for something new to play with. Through no fault of their own they are FORCED to buy inadequately advanced, incremental updates. :p
 
How am I not surprised by that picture.

I am not sure if it’s because I am now a few years away from being 50 but, PC’ing just doesn’t seem as much fun as it used to be.

There would always be new shit coming out and it seemed like I was forever tinkering with my shit, now, aslong as it switches on and bootsup am happy.

I blame intel and nvidia for me getting old and I blame AMD for flaking out for years and letting the other two fucks do what they please and charge accordingly.

If you wonder why I post with a seperate line inbetween each sentence, its cuz my eyes also got old, and when using an ipad, if I don’t put a space between each line, I cant see for shit as it all jumbles up into shit that I cant focus on.

I forgot to add.

I remember when I bought me a top of the range alienware and all my buddies were taking the piss and saying wtf, why did I buy that shit and that I could of built it for much cheaper.

I know but I was flush at the time, 2 days ago the dude just went and bought ?

Yup a fuckin dell.

With an alienware sticker.
 
More graphs!


Here's my graph

johnny-cash-finger-2.jpg



Next CPU will certainly be an AMD product.
 
EVIL-SCOTSMAN said:
How am I not surprised by that picture.

I am not sure if it’s because I am now a few years away from being 50 but, PC’ing just doesn’t seem as much fun as it used to be.

There would always be new shit coming out and it seemed like I was forever tinkering with my shit, now, aslong as it switches on and bootsup am happy.

I blame intel and nvidia for me getting old and I blame AMD for flaking out for years and letting the other two fucks do what they please and charge accordingly.

If you wonder why I post with a seperate line inbetween each sentence, its cuz my eyes also got old, and when using an ipad, if I don’t put a space between each line, I cant see for shit as it all jumbles up into shit that I cant focus on.

I forgot to add.

I remember when I bought me a top of the range alienware and all my buddies were taking the piss and saying wtf, why did I buy that shit and that I could of built it for much cheaper.

I know but I was flush at the time, 2 days ago the dude just went and bought ?

Yup a fuckin dell.

With an alienware sticker.
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They used to be cool and not horribly overpriced (but expensive for sure).

Now...they're fancy Dell XPS's with an alien head.
 
cageymaru said:
Respond to my post with all the links showing how Valve and Steam are growing by millions of PC Gamers a month but Intel can't figure out how to sell a chip.
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I was replying to your former post, explaining you why improving a GPU to get customers to upgrade in a short cycle is much simpler than improving a CPU. I was giving the technical reasons for graphs like this one that show the disparity between LCUs and TCUs

nvidia-cpu-gpu-performance-spread.jpg


About your other posts with VALVE and STEAM numbers I have to say that PC numbers in VALVE data have increased from 21% to 24%, only a 3% total gain. The biggest gain is the Nintendo SWITCH, which increases from 1% to 5% in the same period. This is a huge 400% increase in sales.

About STEAM. Did you check STEAM hardware statistics? The number of AMD Windows users has increased a lot of since February, 7% total gain, but the 84% of users continue using Intel. And Intel numbers are in green, because Intel won 0.11% share in May-->June. Not bad for a company that "can't figure out how to sell a chip"
 
juanrga said:
I was replying to your former post, explaining you why improving a GPU to get customers to upgrade in a short cycle is much simpler than improving a CPU. I was giving the technical reasons for graphs like this one that show the disparity between LCUs and TCUs

View attachment 90323

About your other posts with VALVE and STEAM numbers I have to say that PC numbers in VALVE data have increased from 21% to 24%, only a 3% total gain. The biggest gain is the Nintendo SWITCH, which increases from 1% to 5% in the same period. This is a huge 400% increase in sales.

About STEAM. Did you check STEAM hardware statistics? The number of AMD Windows users has increased a lot of since February, 7% total gain, but the 84% of users continue using Intel. And Intel numbers are in green, because Intel won 0.11% share in May-->June. Not bad for a company that "can't figure out how to sell a chip"
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Intel says that the consumer market is dying and that the datacenter is where the money is to be made. Did you pay attention to the charts? The one that Kyle linked in the OP which came straight from Intel?

Yet Steam is growing and last I checked they only sell to PC Gamers. They get 1.5 million new customers per month who purchase a product from them. That isn't a free account created for fun; that's someone that spent money in the store. But Intel says that the consumer PC market is dying and the datacenter is what they are pushing.

So again how can Steam grow monthly and the number of PC Gamers shrink so much that Intel doesn't feel the need to innovate in the consumer PC market? If you hadn't noticed, many PC Gamers are just replacing their 2500K processors because finally there is an upgrade worthy of their money. Why did Intel stop innovation at Intel? Why did they let the market become stagnant?

Intel can't blame AMD as AMD was on the brink of financial ruin. Intel had the entire market to themselves to rule. They had the money, the mind share, and the power to innovate and push the consumer PC market to new levels yet they sat on their butts and rehashed the same architecture over and over again with a 5% gain in a synthetic benchmark on a good day.

What the hell does a Nintendo Switch have to do with Valve / Steam? Different market and PC Gaming is growing going by research from independent sources. So the Switch can get more users but the PC Gaming market continues to grow also. A person buy both or even more platforms. Hell I have an Intel notebook and an AMD desktop.

Again why isn't Intel innovating in the market. 5% faster than last year is NOT innovation. That's a tweak at best.
 
They have a security system built-in yes, but they don't make NICs so their security system is not anywhere near as capable as ME is. More is to be learned about it, but it's not on the same level at all.

IdiotInCharge said:
Who have their own equivalent of Intel's ME?
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Aireoth said:
If we go cloud gaming, I am out.
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I can see it for "console graphics" though. There might be a new generation of gaming services that will cater to the "I like shiny things but at this many $, this is shiny enough". This issue is still latency/bandwidth for non-trivial population segment though.
 
cageymaru said:
Intel says that the consumer market is dying and that the datacenter is where the money is to be made. Did you pay attention to the charts? The one that Kyle linked in the OP which came straight from Intel?

Yet Steam is growing and last I checked they only sell to PC Gamers. They get 1.5 million new customers per month who purchase a product from them. That isn't a free account created for fun; that's someone that spent money in the store. But Intel says that the consumer PC market is dying and the datacenter is what they are pushing.

So again how can Steam grow monthly and the number of PC Gamers shrink so much that Intel doesn't feel the need to innovate in the consumer PC market? If you hadn't noticed, many PC Gamers are just replacing their 2500K processors because finally there is an upgrade worthy of their money. Why did Intel stop innovation at Intel? Why did they let the market become stagnant?

Intel can't blame AMD as AMD was on the brink of financial ruin. Intel had the entire market to themselves to rule. They had the money, the mind share, and the power to innovate and push the consumer PC market to new levels yet they sat on their butts and rehashed the same architecture over and over again with a 5% gain in a synthetic benchmark on a good day.

What the hell does a Nintendo Switch have to do with Valve / Steam? Different market and PC Gaming is growing going by research from independent sources. So the Switch can get more users but the PC Gaming market continues to grow also. A person buy both or even more platforms. Hell I have an Intel notebook and an AMD desktop.

Again why isn't Intel innovating in the market. 5% faster than last year is NOT innovation. That's a tweak at best.
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The PC market has been dying during the last six years, and only bounced recently by business migrating cycle to W10, after which the PC market will continue to dye, as explained in the link that you gave

This was driven purely by the business market and the Windows 10 upgrade cycle, not consumers, many of whom have switched to smartphones for daily tasks. Analysts warn that the market will weaken again in two years.
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The graphs that Intel is giving simply reflect reality. What is the problem? AMD has been share similar graphs during years, explaining to investors how the company was moving away from a dying PC market

Revenue.png


The gaming PC niche market is increasing, but the overall PC market is dying. Moreover, I have a feeling that the PC gaming market is increasing as a consequence of current consoles not being what gamers expected. Recall that during presentation of PS4 and Xbox1, many gamers complained the new consoles were born with outdated hardware.

If next gen consoles are powerful again, the PC gaming market would start to die.

I have just explained how innovating a CPU is much harder than innovating a GPU. CPU development did hit two walls: ILP wall and MHZ wall. The only remaining source of massive improvement is vector/SIMD and moar cores and both sources are getting walls (vector wide wall, and Amdahl's law wall). Getting a 5% IPC gain from an optimized 8-wide architecture or getting 200MHz extra above a baseline of 4.5GHz is a kind of engineering miracle. If increasing IPC and MHz today was so easy as some people believes then any other company (IBM, Qualcomm, Samsung, Apple, Oracle,...) would be now selling 16-wide 8GHz CPUs. But they aren't, because everyone is bound by the same physical and technological limits. This graph is a beautiful example

Ddewkq2U8AApWGG.jpg


Are you also forgeting that Intel had problems with the 10nm node? The original roadmap was to replace 4-core Skylake by 8-core Icelake back in 2015. Then 10nm was delayed and Intel had to release plan-B with Kabylake and now CoffeeLake stopgaps.

I mentioned the Nintendo Switch because you claimed that PC gaming market was increasing whereas console market was decreasing. The Nintendo Switch sales have increased abut one order of magnitude more than PC-gaming in the same period of time.

And a final comment. Intel has been trying very hard to innovate. Intel labs has tried dozens of different new technologies, as show all the papers and demos of prototypes. The problem is that no one of those innovative technologies works. It is not a problem with Intel alone. No one else in academia or research has gotten they to work in real-life situations. So the whole planet technology is stagnant around the older SS/OOOE/silicon.
 
You can't add 1.5 million paying customers to a PC Gaming exclusive service per month if the market is dying. It is silly to think so unless you can show me how this is possible. And you do know that people can own a cellphone, tablet, console(s) and a PC gaming rig at the same time?

I don't feel sorry for Intel's failings with 10nm. Have you seen their latest and greatest in the newly released notebooks such as the MacBook, Dell, HP, etc? The new i9 is slower than the previous generation's i7. Why? Because the notebook manufacturers can't keep it from throttling. When it throttles it is slower than the chips it replaced. Spend $7,000 on a 2018 Macbook and it is slower than the one you already own.

They need to do like Nvidia did after the 400 series and retool their lineup. Innovate. Cut the heat. Dominate.

Not make chips that manufacturers struggle to keep cool like this.
https://www.hardocp.com/news/2018/07/18/new_macbook_pro_i9_slower_than_old_i7
 
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d50man said:
I DO NOT WANT PC AS A SERVICE!!!, no processing fees, no operating system subscription, no cloud ONLY storage, no game streaming, NONE OF IT! We already have artificially limited internet speeds at overpriced levels with artificially low CAPS!
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Good news, there is none of it.
 
ManofGod said:
Good news, there is none of it.
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"they" are definitely trying for it though aren't they? So far it's all resulted in nothing. Every two years or so this or that company attempts to start pushing in that direction though. One of these days it just might work. Hopefully not though. I prefer my computing in my own hands. At least as much as it can be.
 
No, it is because the thing runs hot due to the design of the laptop. Looks like Apple should not make the laptop as thin as it is because there are other companies that use the chip without issue. But of course those laptops look like tiny desktops unlike the Apple design that is thin and sleek. Your Reddit thread talks about heat as being an issue also. Just sad that the Intel i7 part seems to suffer a lot less than the Intel i9.....

Apple laptops. Intel i7 and Intel i9 side by side. Intel i7 is faster than the Intel i9 in long rendering projects due to throttling caused by heat.

Macbook.png




Note that the Acer Helios doesn't throttle! Why? Because it looks like an encyclopedia it is so thick to dissipate heat! Intel i9 done right!

Helios.png


I don't blame Intel; I blame Apple. They knew the new chip wouldn't work in a thin notebook. They shouldn't have ever used it in that manner.

Macheat.png
 
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cageymaru said:
I don't blame Intel; I blame Apple. They knew the new chip wouldn't work in a thin notebook. They shouldn't have ever used it in that manner.
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Just looking a the specs of the new 15" Macbook Pro, I'd have to say that I was pretty impressed with the i9 option in terms of cost and performance- on paper.

But it does look like they pushed it a bit too hard, and that there is simply no more thermal headroom in the chassis.

Further note: it's not like we should reasonably expect a Ryzen six-core plus basic GPU (doesn't exist, I know, but it should!) to handle the job any better really. This just looks like they're at the limit of what can be done with this much clockspeed, voltage, and this many transistors in flight on a 14nm-class node product.
 
cageymaru said:
No, it is because the thing runs hot due to the design of the laptop. Looks like Apple should not make the laptop as thin as it is because there are other companies that use the chip without issue.
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There are two problems:
  1. There is an hardware cooling problem due to VRM.
  2. There is an performance problem due to throttling. Part of this throttling is due to (1), part is due to wrong default settings. The link I provided gives an unofficial trick that solves the settings problem and recover most of the missed performance. Apple has already launched an official patch that makes the same.
 
Still thermal throttling and can't reach top speeds, but it runs faster than before! Of course the encyclopedia looking laptops are worlds faster (5.0GHz) due to better heat management. Would be nice if the thing could maintain base clock frequencies all the time but that's the manufacturer's problem for trying to stick an oven into a pancake.

 
juanrga said:
There are two problems:
  1. There is an hardware cooling problem due to VRM.
  2. There is an performance problem due to throttling. Part of this throttling is due to (1), part is due to wrong default settings. The link I provided gives an unofficial trick that solves the settings problem and recover most of the missed performance. Apple has already launched an official patch that makes the same.
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Well then Asus and others need to figure out their VRM solutions also because they all thermal throttle from what I'm reading. The chip wasn't designed to be placed in such a thin device.
 
cageymaru said:
Well then Asus and others need to figure out their VRM solutions also because they all thermal throttle from what I'm reading. The chip wasn't designed to be placed in such a thin device.
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The patch released by Apple improves performance and efficiency

 
cageymaru said:
No, Intel stopped innovating in the consumer desktop market and PC users are smart enough to know that everything was essentially a rehash of the same design since the i5-2500K series. PC sales stagnated because there was literally zero reasons to upgrade the CPU. Meanwhile Nvidia and AMD gave us reasons to upgrade graphics cards and that market flourished. Now that AMD has a new design out that has reinvigorated the consumer market; guess what?

PC Shipments Grew for the First Time in Six Years

Now do you think it is a coincidence that the PC market grew for the first time in 6 years because consumers suddenly felt sorry for Intel and AMD or do you think it was because one of the companies finally put out new products that gave PC Gamers a reason to 6 year old upgrade machines?
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Pretty much this, however I think the real reason is that software is so far behind that it cannot take full advantage of these processors which isn't the case with video cards. So for an average consumer it matters little whether they have i5-2500 or i5-8500. Processor fab size has shrunk so they got more power efficient and more powerful but in many cases it just doesn't matter so much hence people don't upgrade but I don't think it is Intel's fault.
 
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