Help picking and setting up fans

Discussion in 'Overclocking & Cooling' started by fggs, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Good morning,

    I want to improve cooling on my case and processor. My case is an old CoolerMaster CM690 and processor is an i7 7700K.

    On the case I have 1 ML120 on the rear and 1 ML120 on the side, currently no fan in front.

    My cooler is a CoolerMaster Hyper 212+ with stock fan.

    I was advised to buy Noctua AF12x25-PWM which is not in stock, closest I could find is AF12x25-ULN which seems to not produce too much CFM.

    Another issue that I have is: How to setup the fans on the case? I was told positive pressure is better, so I guess the fan with higher CFM should go in front, what about the rest?

    Also, should I replace Hyper 212+ stock fan?

    Cheers
     
  2. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,791
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Most anything will be an upgrade from your two-fan setup. Don't feel compelled to buy Noctua either - they are good fans, but they are not the only good fans.

    I'd just start by populating the front fan slots of your case. It looks like you can choose two 120mm fans there or a single 200mm. Either will help. Set the front and side fans as intakes and the rear as exhaust, and that will accomplish positive pressure.

    As for your 212, you'll likely see better results from adding a second fan than you would from replacing the stock one.
     
    pendragon1, fggs and travm like this.
  3. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019

    Thank you for your quick reply!

    Unfortunately my case only has one 120mm fan slot in front, do you have a suggestion of make and model?

    I've attached its manual.

    My side fan is set as intake as far as I know.

    About the 212, which fan would you recommend?

    Regards!
     

    Attached Files:

  4. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,791
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Gotcha. Looks like you do have a fan spot in the bottom of the case, too, so I'd add one to the front and one to the bottom (assuming your machine doesn't sit on carpet).

    The ML120s you're already sporting are excellent fans. Fractal Design makes good ones, Phanteks makes good ones. Noctua makes good ones too.

    Performance numbers as reported by manufacturers on fans aren't really trustworthy, because they attain those numbers in very unrealistic test conditions which aren't standardized. You can spend hours comparing CFM ratings, but those all go out the window once you put the fan up against a grille or a drive cage. I personally would just shop for ones you like the look of and are willing to pay for, then look up some reviews for performance and noise metrics.

    If I were to add a second fan to that cooler, I would try to buy the same fan it came with. I think it's a Cooler Master Silencio fan.
     
    fggs likes this.
  5. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    I had a CM690 and it is very easy to mount a second 120mm fan in the 5.25" drive bays. Behind the front panel there are metal plates blocking each drive bay. You can mount two corners of a 120mm fan to one of those plates (the plates have holes that line up perfectly) and remove the other plates. This will take of 4 out of the 5 drive bays though. The CM690 v2 or v3 might be different, not sure which version you have.

    I would not bother replacing the ML120s either they are good fans. Pick up a 3rd fan of your choice for another intake. I have Fractal and Phanteks, but Corsair and Noctua are also good.

    If it were me I would put a 120mm fan in the 5.25" bays as intake. This will feed your CPU cooler directly with cool air.
    I would then use the bottom mount as an intake, it will blow cool air on your GPU. If your PC is on carpet pick up a small shelf and sit the PC on it.
    I would not use the stock front fan position, it has a lot of restrictions. The front panel mesh, then a honeycomb grill, then both sides of the HDD cage.
    Use the rear as exhaust.
     
    fggs likes this.
  6. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Yes, my machine sits on an MDF table (fake wood?!)

    Unfortunately the biggest online store from my country doesn't have any Fractal or Phanteks. There is one store which has Noctua and it has exclusivity.

    The image shows the brands I have available in this biggest store, I hope you can help me narrow it down.
    Screenshot_40.png
     
  7. trixdout

    trixdout n00b

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
    You have the first version of CM690 that has been out since 2006-07. I have the same case. Just add fans to your missing slots. If you can add 3, use 2 as intake and 1 as exhaust. If you have only 2 spots use a higher cfm as your intake and lower cfm as your exhaust. Keep your flow in a somewhat similar fashion. In from the front and bottom/top and out the back or bottom or top (opposite side of you top/bottom intake).
     
    fggs likes this.
  8. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Thank you for your reply!

    Currently I have no fan at the top, so I have two free slots there, one free slot on the front, one free slot on the bottom and another free slot on the side (the one almost aligned with cpu cooler).

    The main problem right now is choosing the fans, as you can see I have just a few good brands available.. :(
     
  9. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,791
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    I can't speak to a lot of those brands as I don't recognize them - we must live in very different markets. I can definitely vouch for the Corsair ML series fans though. They move tons of air and are very quiet.
     
  10. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Speaking of Corsair, which series would you use? I see a lot of AF, but it seems its performance is not on pair with ML
     
  11. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,791
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    AF is an older design. ML is Corsair's current flagship line. Good rotor design, PWM control, magnetic levitation bearings.
     
  12. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Ok, so after searching a lot, it seems Corsair is my only option. To make it worse, I can only find ML series with LEDs (which I hate).

    Giving all the input here, I'm thinking two 140mm at the top as out, one 120mm in front as intake, should I consider one at the bottom or this should be enough?

    I've removed the front panel, I only have 3 metal plates, I will see if I can come up with a fan adapter and remove those plates, can I use the stock front slot for now?
     
  13. trixdout

    trixdout n00b

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
    The noctua af12's are good. they have great cfm and are low noise. Search for fans with good reviews and pick the ones with the most cfm. CFM is what matters on these fans.
     
  14. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    The only store that sells Noctua here only have them in backorder, about 65 days to ship them :(
     
  15. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Some good suggestions. I'll add that removing all PCIe back slot covers increases rear vent area around GPU and this improves front to back airflow around GPU lovering air temp into both CPU and GPU with good pressure rated front intakes. As suggest fill front with good pressure rated intakes, and block any holes not covered by fans so the air fans are pushing into case cannot leak back in front again. Bottom intake will help supply cool air to GPU, and raising case on taller feet or on open center caster base will greatly improve airflow to bottom vents. Best fans are be quiet! Silent Loop 3 PWM High Speed but expensive. Phanteks PH-F120MP are good and you might be able to find multpacks for good price. If these are to expensive Arctic P12 PWM seem to be good and are much lower price. I haven't use exhaust fans in several years because having intake and exhaust on cases is like having pushj/pull on coolers and radiators .. it's only gains about 2c lower temps at most and increasing single fan 100rpm or less makes the same temp difference.
    Edit: I started a thread with basic guide to improving case airflow:
    https://hardforum.com/threads/basic-guide-to-improving-case-airflow.1987938/
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  16. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Two 140mm top exhaust and one 120mm intake will give you negative pressure. The main benefit of having positive pressure is you can use filters on the intakes to reduce dust. Your case has built in dust filter on the entire front panel, and the bottom fan mount. If you have negative pressure air and dust will get sucked in through every hole/crack/crevice in the case.

    Again, 2 intake and 1 exhaust fan should be plenty and you will only have to purchase 1 fan.

    I drew a picture to better explain how I mounted a fan. Remove all the plates, mount a fan as shown. The blue dots should line up with 120mm fan holes. Then you can screw the plate back onto the case using the threaded holes with the purple arrows.
    cooler_master_cm_690_14.jpg
     
  17. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Thank you for all the help!

    Giving the costs of the fans, I'm thinking about replacing my case, Thermaltake Versa J24 seems like a winner, but for it to have the best performance I will have to remove the front filter (I couldn't find a tutorial to do it) and I'm also thinking if I should use my 2 ML120 somewhere or leave on the CM690, as I don't have 3, perhaps use one as exhaust on J24 and leave the other as spare! What do you think?
     
  18. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    24,640
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    What's your goal? Lower temps? Higher OC? I'd probably replace the cooler at this point. Might be pushing it to expect a big OC on that cooler with a single fan. Don't get me wrong, it's a great cooler for what it is, but it's not going to compare to something like a TRUE Spirit or even cheap dual tower like a Scythe Fuma or something.
     
  19. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    My goal is to have comfortable temps to then OC, it is running stock right now. From what people say, this cooler isn't so bad, but it is performing badly because the airflow setup of my case.

    Before I came here, I've decided to buy Scythe Ninja 5, which is now out of stock and ain't cheap, at least where I live (Brazil). Then, after some talk with friends I've decided to invest on case fans to improve the airflow setup and see if it makes things better, but looking at the prices of the fans, makes more sense to actually replace the case entirely!
     
  20. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Thermaltake are not know for being good, in fact most experinced users avoid anything wiht that name on it. Can you get Phanteks and/or Fractal Design cases in Bazil? They are much better built and come with decent fans. Can you get Thermalright coolers there? If so TRUE Spirit 140 Power is usually about $50 (Amazon.com delivered price in USA). Pick a case that has 170mm or more CPU clearance and it will fit, (depending on what motherboard and RAM you are using). Some of the best coolers are quite wide and can blcok PCIe slockets 70-77.5mm near sicde of socket to center CPU or block RAM if nearest RAM socket is less than 55mm near side of socket to center CPU. If you give us links to some of the places you can buy cases and coolers from it will be easier to suggest ones you can get.
     
  21. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Unfortunately I can't get Phanteks or Fractal Design cases as they are unavailable (not even listed).

    Thermalright is also unavailable, it used to be back in the Athlon XP era, now it is also not even listed.

    The motherboard I'm gonna be using is ASUS PRIME Z270-A, RAM will be what I current have: G.Skill Ripjaws 2x8GB 2400MHz

    Below are the best online stores in Brazil:

    www.kabum.com.br

    www.terabyteshop.com.br

    www.pichau.com.br

    www.waz.com.br (this is Noctua exclusive reseller, but doesn't have almost anything in stock, taking around 60 days to arrive)

    To help you navigate, pc cases are known as "Gabinetes", brand is known as "Marca", case fans and coolers are in either "RefrigeraĆ§Ć£o", "Coolers", "Ventoinhas".

    I picked Thermaltake Versa J24 because the number of fans and mesh front, it is hard to find cases with mesh front these days, as they usually put acrylic in front and that chokes the fans. I don't know if you like Gamers Nexus reviews, but they say this case ain't so bad: https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwrevie...a-j24-case-review-budget-vs-fractal-meshify-c

    There is also the same review in video:

    Sorry for the pretty big reply, but I tried to give as much information as possible
     
  22. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Good information on what you need and how to check out what is available.

    What is your price range for case, CPU cooler and case fans?

    Then give us some time to look the sites over. At a quick glance Mugen 5 and DeepCool Assassin II are good but over R$ 400.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  23. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    The Ninja 5 was ~R$ 340 and that was the price range I was aiming +- R$ 50 on a CPU cooler, but I don't know if makes sense to invest that much on a cooler if a new case has similar price and much better airflow than my current CM 690.

    What I don't get though is why case makers became so dumb to simply block airflow with acrylic and/or tempered glass making them beautiful yet poorly functional, but I guess that's another discussion!
     
  24. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    You might find guide in below link helpful to check out case airflow.
    https://hardforum.com/threads/basic-guide-to-improving-case-airflow.1987938/

    A remote sensor thermometer to monitor airflow temp into coolers is a necessity so you can set up case fans to supply cooler with a less than 5c above room ambient. All my builds are 3c or less. Any cheap remote sensor thermometer works, like aquarium, terrarium, indoor/outdoor, fridge, etc. I got mine off of ebay.
     
  25. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Thank you for your guide, I've read it and I'm now trying to absorb all the knowledge there. I will see if I can buy a cheap thermometer to do some tests!
     
  26. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Watching airflow temp into coolers and adjusting fan speed, sometimes fan placement often solves problems.

    Keep in mind your case fans need to have about 1.5-1.7mm H2O pressure rating to overcome grill and filter resistance and still flow a decent amount of air at low speeds (600-800rpm). Then as fan speed increases as temps rise their airflow increase as their ability to overcome resistance increases. In most of my builds fan speeds even when CPU and GPU are working hard are in the 1100-1300rpm range. Obviously the higher / hotter CPU overclock and higher powered GPUs increase demand and thus higher fan speeds.
     
  27. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Sadly I won't be able to find a thermometer to test today, but please see if my thinking makes sense:

    Giving the fact that my case is old and it has only one front fan slot (ok, there is also one at the bottom), even if I install another fan in front (thanks to Dermen's tip) I would still have to expend a good amount of money in fans, which would be at least half the price of Thermaltake Versa J24.

    To make it worse, you will see when looking the sites I linked, it seems my only option is Corsair fans.

    It makes me think a new case makes more sense. Speaking of which, did you see the review? If so, what did you think?

    Thank you very much!
     
  28. demondrops

    demondrops Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    415
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    i love my mag lev fans from corsair but. i saw this test on linus and it seems hard to go wrong but i went for a high pressure, where i got 5 fans on intake and 1 on outtake that is put on a bit higher rpm then intake. dust will come in the pc eventually anyway.. the intakes got filters so they pull in less. exhaust dont got so it will go out quite easy. i really think it is hard to go wrong with that. i rly never got any issues with temps anyway, nor for normal appilcations. and now i got the kraken on my ti, and with 1 fan it tops out at 60c at low rpm @ 2025-2050 mhz.

    if you dont got any heat issues, it probably isnt worth to do anything about it. if you do then sure, that cpu cooler is quite good for how small and that it is air.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  29. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Just looked at Gamernexus review with them saying it's better than stock Define S2, But Define stock case fans have such a low pressure rating they are worthless and case runs very hot. Seems Versa J24 has the same problem so if you get it you will need to replace all fans behind filters and front grill or remove grill and filter. I can't find anything about exactly what fans Versa J24 comes with so no idea what fan specifications are. All they say is "Three 120mm 12V RGB fans and one standard 120mm fan are included". They don't tell us exactly what model those fans are so no way of checking fan specs to see what their airflow, static pressure or speed is. This kind of advertising is one of the many reasons I won't buy Thermaltake products.

    Sorry to take so long. Still looking at what is available on your websites .. or to be more truthful what is not available. Almost everything I know is good is not available on any of them.
     
  30. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    No need to say sorry, at least now you feel my pain heheh

    Today I've moved the side fan to the front, almost aligned with the CPU fan, but temps still sucks.

    Lowest temp I could get is 39C (102F), with around 40% of load it goes up to ~68C, at this point I really don't know what to do.

    I will see if I can find out which model comes with Versa J24, on the review it says the fans aren't great, being the back one the cheapest Thermaltake could put in, but it should work better than what I have now, no?

    If I had at least 3 ML120 already, it would be easy to replace the front fans from Versa J24, but with 2 I don't know what to do, from what I've thought my options are: a) put one as exhaust on the rear of the case and the other on Hyper 212+, b) put both on Hyper 212+, c) put one as exhaust on the rear of the case and save the other as spare.
     
  31. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Did I miss what CPU you are using? You said a Z270 board, so assuming it is a 7600k/7700k.
    What is the average room temp where the computer is?
    What are the temps like if you take the side of the case off? If there isn't a big different with the side of the case on or off then more airflow through the case isn't going to help.

    It looks like you can get a Corsair AF120 fan without LED. You could use the ML fans as intakes and the AF fan as an exhaust. ML fans have more pressure to overcome restrictions. That isn't as important for an exhaust fan with positive case pressure so the Corsair AF fan should be fine.
     
  32. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Sorry, I guess I didn't mention my CPU. My current board is an ASRock Z170 Pro4, CPU is an i7 7700K, I plan to upgrade the motherboard to an ASUS PRIME Z270-A as I have an i5 6600K with no motherboard.

    Average room temp seems to be ~25C, I don't have a thermometer here though.

    Temps doesn't seem to change with or withou the side of the case.

    What is your opinion about a new case?
     
  33. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    7700k is a hot CPU. Your room temps are a little on the higher side. Hitting 70C at stock speeds is not abnormal. (For comparison my 6700k with a similar heatsink and room temp ran at 71C at default speeds during stress testing. Overclocked it was hitting high 80s).

    I don't think a new case is going to help. I would get a new CPU cooler. Looking at your links and price range you could get a Scythe Mugen 5 Rev. B or Thermaltake Nic C5. Here is a review
    Throw in a Corsair AF120 fan as an exhaust with the two ML120s as intakes and you should be as good as you can get without spending a lot more money.

    After that you would be better off spending money on delidding than anything else.
     
  34. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019

    Well, I went to buy Mugen 5 and Ninja 5 (which seems better from the reviews I've seen) and I took the opportunity and bought it. It should arrive on wednesday and I will try to replace it by the end of the week.

    What do you think it is best? If I install my ML120 on the CM690 default front slot or in a custom support towards 5.25" drive bays?
     
  35. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    The Ninja5, Mugen 5b, and NicC5 were all within 2C of each other in the review I looked at it.

    I would mount it in the 5.25" bays, it has less restriction and will blow directly towards the CPU cooler.
     
  36. doyll

    doyll Kyle's Thermocouple is HOT

    Messages:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    What Dermen said.

    Can you get Arctic P series fans? They are pretty good and usually low priced. Typically 140mm move more air then 120mm .. like 2x 140mm move about the same as 3x 120mm of similar design and speed. Arctic P series have higher pressure rating so if you put a 140mm on 5.25 bays so the air it pushing in toward CPU has all opening around it in 5.25 bay blocked so air doesn't leak back into 5.25 bay area then all the air it pulls into case moves back to CPU. ;)
     
  37. D-EJ915

    D-EJ915 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,024
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    For the same price the Fuma 2 is better unless you just like how the Ninja 5 looks which is pretty neat. I would either go with Mugen 5 Rev B or Fuma 2 with budget being deciding factor.

    I had all 3 at the same time but as Mugen was for my friend's pc I did not compare it with the other two. Big downside to Ninja 5 is the 800 RPM fans as the Mugen and Fuma come with 1200 RPM ones.
     
  38. fggs

    fggs n00b

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    I want to thank you all for the help! Sadly I haven't got notified for the last two replies and I end up buying Ninja 5 after all. My numbers are: 36~38C idle and 76~77C full load (like when running Prime95), I think I have room for better numbers as I let the motherboard handle the fans speed and it doesn't get full speed while in full load, but I guess this is pretty good compared with what I had!

    To answer doyll : Arctic P series isn't available as well :(