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Help me comprehend this

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Fail said:
I do because it serves the lowest common denominator, anybody can pick up and play Call of Duty and get somewhere in it.

However, not anybody can pick up a game like Demon's Souls and make progress without pain and sacrifice.

Just like not anybody could pick up the NES version of Ninja Gaiden and expect to progress in it.

Dark Souls will be the same kind of ass kicking, and I welcome the challenge.
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Pick up and play is generally considered good game design. If a game is obtuse and hard to understand there is something wrong. Pick up and play doesn't mean no depth.
 
Derangel said:
Pick up and play is generally considered good game design. If a game is obtuse and hard to understand there is something wrong. Pick up and play doesn't mean no depth.
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In the distant past, I might agree, and even use this same argument in my posts, but that's simply not true these days.

Almost ALL games released these days are pick up and play, simply because the casuals are the ones who pay the bills, the hardcore gamers who like the challenge of a Ninja Gaiden or Dark Souls aren't the ones who enable a game to sell 500 million dollars worth of copies in a month.

It's all about the target audience, or better put "as wide a target audience as possible".
 
Fail said:
I don't think of it as elitist as much as I think of it as having a firm basis in reality, and even if you don't like it, will you DENY that what I'm saying is true?

I do realize however, that the definition of "hardcore" probably varies from person to person.
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I will deny what your saying is true. You can't tell me games like Gears of War and Call of Duty (derpy? Really?) are casual games.

Are they casual because they're on the console? Does the act of sitting on a couch as opposed to a desk chair define what makes a game casual?
 
I somewhat agree with this definition

Hardcore gamers have a generally negative, and often derogatory view of casual gamers, looked upon as the plague of the video game industry. While hardcore gamers are in the minority of gamers they provide an invaluable resource to developers on both the hardware and software end. Without the hardcore gamers passion and dedication to the art, we would be overrun with shitty games.

Since the purchase power of the casual gamer determines what becomes a best seller, it is understandable why the hardcore gamer has such contempt for the group.

Causual Gamers attitude towards games causes them to only buy simplistic sports and action titles. This harms the development and evolution of the industry as a whole because heartless publishers like EA, Ubi-soft and Sega will use their influence to crush new and innovative ideas and push forward titles which will sell faster and better to the unwashed masses.


Another good definition:

A casual gamer is somebody who doesn't know jack shit about video games.

Their "game" collection often consists mainly of annually rehashed sports titles with buggy engines and unbalanced gameplay as well as other EA or Activision garbage. Many casual gamers refuse to play Nintendo games because they're too "hardcore" to play that "kiddy crap," yet they're the type of cowards who'll give up on games like Ninja Gaiden, because "it's too hard." But hey, there's always Call of Derpy.

Other popular games among casuals are: Grand Theft Auto, a pointless game that appeals to the type of idiot who thinks shooting a hooker is as funny the thousandth time as the first; Gran Turismo, because driving around in circles is the most rewarding gameplay experience ever; and Tomb Raider, because shitty games can sell well just like shitty music if they have enough "sex appeal." Games like Call of Derpy can also be included in this category because making a video game replica of a Michael Bay movie and substituing big explosions and special effects provides the illusion of substance. Better yet, keep using the same rehashed engine and gameplay and don't innovate, because with a $200 million advertising campaign, everybody on Earth will feel the need to buy this game.
 
erf said:
...you have such a poor understanding of what makes a capitalist nation go 'round. You sir, will always be in the minority because you are a "hard core enthusiast". There will always be more "junk" than there are "gems".

Until you realize this, you're going to continue to bitch about games you view as "junk", and continue to give your money over for the "gems".

The people who are smart enough to realize that balancing mass popularity with good intentions isn't always easy will enjoy BOTH the "junk" and the "gems". Hell...I might even bitch a little along the way...but no way I'll miss out on a good game based on some created "moral high road".

You will change before this world does...trust me young Jedi.
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Not only am I going to quote my original response to your thread, I'm going to re-ask:

What do you call someone who enjoys both the Call of Duty franchise and Demon's Souls?
 
Oh, man, I just started laughing out loud like Heath Ledger from The Dark Knight

guess what I found???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game#Genres

You can see Call of Derpy listed there.

Good stuff, I love it!!!!!!!

It's even in Wikipedia, which means it's common knowledge.

Then you compare it to Demon's Souls, taken from the Demon's Souls Wikipedia entry.

Prior to the game's release in Europe, European critics reviewed import copies. Eurogamer called Demon's Souls "stoic, uncompromising, difficult to get to know, but also deep, intriguingly disturbed and perversely rewarding", while Edge explained their positive view on the difficulty by stating "if gaming’s ultimate appeal lies in the learning and mastering of new skills, then surely the medium’s keenest thrills are to be found in its hardest lessons" concluding "for those who flourish under Demon’s Souls’ strict examination, there’s no greater sense of virtual achievement."
 
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Fail said:
I do because it serves the lowest common denominator, anybody can pick up and play Call of Duty and get somewhere in it.

However, not anybody can pick up a game like Demon's Souls and make progress without pain and sacrifice.

Just like not anybody could pick up the NES version of Ninja Gaiden and expect to progress in it.

Dark Souls will be the same kind of ass kicking, and I welcome the challenge.
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What is your sacrifice? Hours to beat a single level? Social life so you can sit in front of this game all day?

You're making this game sound like it can kill you, in the end it's just another game.

My favorite of all though was when you said people who play this game are more of a man than those who don't. It made me laugh quite a bit, considering manhood is usually measured in how many chicks you can get and how much you can lift, not if you can beat a game or not. This game doesn't physically challenge you at all, there might be a mental challenge to it but it's nothing extreme. It's basically get fucked over at point A and redo it differently to not get fucked over. So after losing at a different part in each level you can get through it without too many issues as you know exactly what to do at each part.
 
xIronCrossx said:
What is your sacrifice? Hours to beat a single level? Social life so you can sit in front of this game all day?
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Hard earned souls and progress, with my bloodstain splattered all over the pavement. Not only is my health capped at health when I revive, but I have to make it back to my bloodstain without dying in order to reclaim all the souls I lost upon death, or it's all forfeit if I die.

You're making this game sound like it can kill you, in the end it's just another game.
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It kills the weak, I grew a beard just playing it.
 
Fail said:
Hard earned souls and progress, with my bloodstain splattered all over the pavement. Not only is my health capped at health when I revive, but I have to make it back to my bloodstain without dying in order to reclaim all the souls I lost upon death, or it's all forfeit if I die.



It kills the weak, I grew a beard just playing it.
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Nice beard bro.

gamer.jpg
 
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/acz2t/let_me_tell_you_about_demons_souls/

Read the comments, they even grew beards just reading the review. They even include a beard growing contest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=081dHOYY6IE&feature=player_embedded



Demon’s Souls is a game that will make you into a man. A scrawny fourteen-year-old, after two hours with this game, will be grooming his muttonchops and ready to ship off on the next boat to fight the Kaiser. If you are already a man, it will make you into some sort of bizarre double-man. What’s that you say? You’re a woman? You don’t want to be a man? Too bad. Too bad. That’s the Demon’s Souls way.

You’ve probably heard that Demon’s Souls is hard. Pshh. Lots of games are hard. Some are even harder than this one. The difficulty is not the point. What sets Demon's Souls apart is the way that it doesn't just kill you, but also stomps on your genitals when you’re down. And it will make you realize that that’s what you needed all along.

It’s a lot like life. Sometimes in life you win, and sometimes the giant armored skeleton stabs your face off because the flying mantis monster you didn’t even see shot you in the back with a spike at just the wrong time. And when that happens in life, do you respawn at the same spot and carry on like nothing happened? NO, asshole. You go back to the beginning of the level, leaving all your hard-earned souls out there on the pavement, and you fight your way back. And you learn a lesson from the whole thing, because you should have been wearing your Thief’s Ring, now shouldn’t you? That’s life.

The trend in hard games these days is to unlock “Easy” mode for you once you’ve died enough times. Do you think Demon’s Souls does that? Do you think Demon’s Souls is so much as aware of the concept of “Easy” mode? NO IT IS NOT. If Demon’s Souls even knew we were talking about “Easy” mode, it would come over here and kick the shit out of all of us. And we would deserve it.

I’ll tell you what happens in Demon’s Souls when you die. You come back as a ghost with your health capped at half. And when you keep on dying, the alignment of the world turns black and the enemies get harder. That’s right, when you fail in this game, it gets harder. Why? Because fuck you is why.

Have I told you about the online elements? At any time when you’re in Body form, another player from anywhere else in the world can invade your game and murder you to regain his own body, or just to keep you on your toes. This happens when you’re in the middle of fighting armies of unthinkable monsters that are probably already three-quarters of the way towards killing you. And no, you cannot opt out of this feature! This is what you signed up for when you agreed to be a man.

When this happened to me -- when a guy strolled into my game like it was Taco Bell and exploded my torso, costing me my body and all my progress in the level -- was I mad? No, because I was too busy being in awe at how fucking hardcore the experience was.

Now, don’t let this dissuade you. Demon’s Souls is a pitiless master, but let it never be said that it is not fair. The game rewards handsomely those who stand up to it, and the greater the challenge, the greater the glory.

What the hell are you waiting for?
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xIronCrossx said:
People who brag about beating Demon Souls they are the biggest and awesomest people in the world.
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That's pretty much true, congratulations, I like the quote, especially once I fixed it to make it more accurate.

My purpose is clear, tonight, I'm going to send the False King Alliant back to whatever spider hole he crawled out of once I'm done here at work.
 
Fail said:
Feel free to address the rest of my post, if you can :D
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Why dont you reply to any of my posts anymore, Fail? Is it because you realise the entire basis of your arguments are centered on flawed and twisted logic? :p You'll probably make up some excuse like I'm ignorant sheeple, or maybe you're too butthurt and are now ignoring or blocking me. :p

Face it, you're being judgemental and acting like a tool while using the thinnest of arguments.

Casual vs hardcore? Seriously? Now you're trying to use this as some derogatory term toward other gamers? Almost all games can be viewed "casual" and always have been, there's such a pathetically thin line between "casual" and "hardcore" that's its a pointless topic which does not remotely help any of your argument.

To someone who plays games on their phone or on facebook, the person who owns a console and plays splitscreen with their friends is a hardcore gamer. To that person, the next person who owns a console but uses it to play online or singleplayer when their friends aren't around is "hardcore". To that gamer, the person who bothers to pay the premium for a gaming PC and play a few hours a week is hardcore. And it goes on and on until you reach the bottom of the pile of people who play games for 12 hours a day every day.

"hardcore" is going to be some mixture of time, effort, knowledge and genre of games that a person likes to play, to try and quantify it or assign labels to people is completely fucking pointless at best and completely ignorant at worst.

Pain and sacrifice? BWAHAHAHAHAHA. That's hil-fucking-arious. Are we still talking about video games here? Those things where you insert a disk into/download onto a console/PC, pick up a controller and start having fun almost instantly? Those things where even the most "hardcore" ones are giving you gratification every few minutes (if not every few seconds).

You talk about "instant gratification", "pain and sacrifice", "lowest common denominator", "harcore vs casual" in the context of VIDEO GAMES. A form of entertainment that in any incarnation has very little time between gratification, in its most hardcore forms has very little pain and sacrifice, the most "hardcore" gamers are considered the lowest common denominator to the rest of society, etc etc. The more I read your posts (and I could be wrong about this, but its how you come across) the more I picture you as a person who has very little endeavours outside of gaming and have become so closed minded into thinking your opinion is correct and anyone who deviates from it is ignorant/an idiot/sheeple/etc, you then proceed to lash out at other gamers because you see the demographic of gamers changing and can't deal with it.

Fact is, for most people, they will buy a game based on the fact its fun. What they find fun says very little about the person other than what they find fun in a video game. If you can't comprehend that, there's very little hope for you.
 
Incoming message saying something along the lines is "It's fine to like playing those games, but for some, they want a game that gives them some challenge". Passive aggressiveness at its finest, he seems to have mastered the art. A sign of a troll is when they start spewing crap and ignore any post that calls them out on it.
 
refraxion said:
Incoming message saying something along the lines is "It's fine to like playing those games, but for some, they want a game that gives them some challenge". Passive aggressiveness at its finest, he seems to have mastered the art. A sign of a troll is when they start spewing crap and ignore any post that calls them out on it.
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It would be more accurate to say the reason we don't get games like Demon's Souls on PC other than that the Japanese don't make games for PC is that it probably wouldn't sell on PC, given how all too happy PC gamers are to be playing casual experiences. In fact, I think there was a news article about how some people refer to themselves as a PC gamer simply because they play Farmville on Facebook.

I'm simply not one of those people who accepts that we should just shut up and accept whatever is handed to us, no, I speak out how we should demand better than what we're getting.

We're not of the same ilk, and that's perfectly fine.

If people voted with their wallets to support hardmode games, then that's what we would be sold on the PC, and we'd all be the richer for it.

Instead we're left with uninspiring dumbed down console ports that lack any real challenge or "definite PC experience" aspect to them, and we're all the poorer for it.
 
Yeah ok I think he's blocked me or at best just ignoring me :p Maybe I made him cry?
 
CKMorpheus said:
Seriously... Fail's got it bad. Major troll if I ever saw one.
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It can never be considered trolling to stand up for what you believe in, and my only agenda is to advance the cause of having good games produced that offer something of redeeming value, like not just satisfaction from playing them, but offers some sort of challenge that requires you to use more than 5 brain cells instead of watered down lowest common denominator crap that gets spewed out monthly by the big publishers.

The problem is that people will buy whatever comes out without any sort of regard to the consequences of their buying decisions. If you're willing to buy shit in a box labeled Call of Duty without any regard to whether it progresses PC gaming (or gaming itself in general) as a whole, and it goes on to sell $1.5 billion worth of copies, what exactly do you think the consequence will be for that? Not to mention the millions of dollars worth of money they generate for the map packs that people are all too willing to buy?

It begets more of the same rehashed experience with map packs that include maps from previous versions of the game rather than any serious attempt at innovation.

You get what you pay for.

Dark Souls includes innovative online play and offers a communal experience in the sense that you will never feel truly alone, and it's a first for a single player experience that attempts to include a unique kind of online component to complement the single player experience without making it a truly multiplayer experience in the traditional sense of the word.

I support games like that, that actually do something to advance gaming as a whole rather than the dumbed down consolized crap that comes out these days that passes as "the pinnacle of gaming".
 
There isn't anything or anyone that actually tracks those who "vote with their wallet" and do not buy a game. Those instances are the very definition of "lost sales", but to send any kind of message to publishers you either have to stir up a storm on forums or you have to torrent, since they can actually be observed.
 
Plague_Injected said:
There isn't anything or anyone that actually tracks those who "vote with their wallet" and do not buy a game. Those instances are the very definition of "lost sales", but to send any kind of message to publishers you either have to stir up a storm on forums or you have to torrent, since they can actually be observed.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately game companies most likely do not view this forum, or they'd reach out to me and ask for my personal approval of their projects, and I could be the adjudicator of good taste in gaming, which I have in spades.
 
Fail said:
In the distant past, I might agree, and even use this same argument in my posts, but that's simply not true these days.

Almost ALL games released these days are pick up and play, simply because the casuals are the ones who pay the bills, the hardcore gamers who like the challenge of a Ninja Gaiden or Dark Souls aren't the ones who enable a game to sell 500 million dollars worth of copies in a month.

It's all about the target audience, or better put "as wide a target audience as possible".
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Dark Souls is the epitome of pick up and play. Put disc in console, grab controller, relax on couch. How much more casual can you get :rolleyes:
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
Dark Souls is the epitome of pick up and play. Put disc in console, grab controller, relax on couch. How much more casual can you get :rolleyes:
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Really? go pick it up and play it, let's see you beat it. I bet if you kept a running diary of your playthrough, it'd be full of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and you'd mutter about how that Fail guy was perfectly accurate in his description of the game, and furthermore, you'd state about how you'd no longer question me when I talk about games, because you'd state that I definitely know what I'm talking about.
 
Thing is.. if you grew up playing the hard games on the NES and subsequent 16bit consoles, Demon Soul's really isn't that hard. I grew up playing asian games (imported) and its really like any other asian made game that was never translated.
 
I played games as far back as the Atari consoles, I'm 29 years old, I've spent 25 years of my life playing games.

I am teh pwnz0r.
 
Fail said:
Really? go pick it up and play it, let's see you beat it. I bet if you kept a running diary of your playthrough, it'd be full of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and you'd mutter about how that Fail guy was perfectly accurate in his description of the game, and furthermore, you'd state about how you'd no longer question me when I talk about games, because you'd state that I definitely know what I'm talking about.
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You talk like I've never seen or heard of this game. I watched my former roommate play through it on his PS3.

The game is hard, but it can be beat with trial and error. If it couldn't, the mental deficients who actually buy consoles would be trashing it instead of making it a cult classic. He could beat it, and so can you. Doesn't make you special, so quit acting like it does.

You want a "challenging" game that requires a lot of trial and error, go play Zork without using any guides. At least then you won't be supporting crappy console games.
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
You talk like I've never seen or heard of this game. I watched my former roommate play through it on his PS3.

The game is hard, but it can be beat with trial and error. If it couldn't, the mental deficients who actually buy consoles would be trashing it instead of making it a cult classic. He could beat it, and so can you. Doesn't make you special, so quit acting like it does.

You want a "challenging" game that requires a lot of trial and error, go play Zork without using any guides. At least then you won't be supporting crappy console games.
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I beat Zork years ago, probably before you were even born, I've beaten Galaga too :p

I used to play Doom MUD's and other text based MUD's, they were pretty fun back in the day. I also played an Aliens vs Predator themed MUD.
 
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Fail said:
I beat Zork years ago, probably before you were even born, I've beaten Galaga too :p

I used to play Doom MUD's and other text based MUD's, they were pretty fun back in the day. I also played an Aliens vs Predator themed MUD.
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So the idea of challenging games is clearly nothing new to you. Why are you acting like this game is innovative? :confused:
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
So the idea of challenging games is clearly nothing new to you. Why are you acting like this game is innovative? :confused:
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Have you even bothered to see how they managed to make the online portion innovative and have it act as a complement to the single player experience without making it truly multiplayer in the traditonal sense of the word?

Otherwise you'd be able to answer your own question.
 
Fail said:
Have you even bothered to see how they managed to make the online portion innovative and have it act as a complement to the single player experience without making it truly multiplayer in the traditonal sense of the word?

Otherwise you'd be able to answer your own question.
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Honestly our friend Fail has a point. In one video I heard that one of the "bosses" in single player is actually another player who's online at the time.

I thought that was way fucking cool.

I don't think I've ever heard of any other game doing something like that.

Also I heard you could drop notes on the ground to leave clues for other players. Stuff like "dangerous monster ahead" and stuff like that.

Maybe I'll pick up a PS3 and give it a shot.
 
Fail said:
I played games as far back as the Atari consoles, I'm 29 years old, I've spent 25 years of my life playing games.

I am teh pwnz0r.
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Me too , in fact we are the same age. I pwn with you :cool:
 
Krenum said:
Me too , in fact we are the same age. I pwn with you :cool:
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Sir, then you owe it to yourself to pick up this game, and not only pick it up, but conquer it with me.

Will you stand with me against the demons, monsters, and other denizens of the bleak world of Dark Souls? They mean to send us to our deaths, I mean to conquer death.

I mean to be like King Leonidas of Sparta and stand tall against the endless waves of evil.
 
Commander FAT said:
Honestly our friend Fail has a point. In one video I heard that one of the "bosses" in single player is actually another player who's online at the time.

I thought that was way fucking cool.

I don't think I've ever heard of any other game doing something like that.

Also I heard you could drop notes on the ground to leave clues for other players. Stuff like "dangerous monster ahead" and stuff like that.

Maybe I'll pick up a PS3 and give it a shot.
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That would be a wise decision, sir, a very wise one indeed. May I recommend you pick up Demon's Souls as well? Atlus was going to end online support for Demon's Souls, but since Demon's Souls has such a passionate online community, they decided to extend the online support into 2012, so if you want to see what all the hubbub is all about, I recommend you pick up a copy of Demon's Souls and give it a whirl before you plunge into Dark Souls.

If the "previews of reviews" and live streams are any indication, and this includes the developer's own words, this game is twice as hard as Demon's Souls, so think of Demon's Souls as your TUTORIAL for Dark Souls :eek:

Will you too, along with Krenum, stand with me against the great evils that want to send us to a hallowed burial in Dark Souls?
 
Fail said:
Atlus was going to end online support for Demon's Souls, but since Demon's Souls has such a passionate online community, they decided to extend the online support into 2012...
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The developer was really going to end online support as soon as the sequel was released?
 
Plague_Injected said:
The developer was really going to end online support as soon as the sequel was released?
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It's not like they are like EA, who cuts their servers off after a year, this one lasted 2 years, and they decided to EXTEND their online servers, a decision that EA would be unlikely to make.

At some point, it does make a certain amount of sense to support your new game, and as I've stated, Atlus has noticed how passionate the Demon's Souls community is online and decided to extend it for that reason.

They get nothing out of Dark Souls because they aren't publishing it, Namco Bandai is.

However, they DO stand to sell more copies of Demon's Souls thanks to Dark Souls bringing more awareness to how good Demon's Souls is.
 
Derangel said:
Atlus is the non-Japanese publisher, not the developer.
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Good catch, thanks for mentioning that as well. If not for Atlus, we wouldn't even have Demon's Souls.

FROM Software tried to get Sony to publish it, but they passed on it, and an executive at Sony admitted that was a huge mistake on Sony's part.

So it was left to Atlus to bring it to our shores, for which I am grateful.
 
Fail said:
It's not like they are like EA, who cuts their servers off after a year, this one lasted 2 years, and they decided to EXTEND their online servers, a decision that EA would be unlikely to make.

At some point, it does make a certain amount of sense to support your new game, and as I've stated, Atlus has noticed how passionate the Demon's Souls community is online and decided to extend it for that reason.

They get nothing out of Dark Souls because they aren't publishing it, Namco Bandai is.

However, they DO stand to sell more copies of Demon's Souls thanks to Dark Souls bringing more awareness to how good Demon's Souls is.
Click to expand...

EA kills nearly empty servers. Atlus probably would have killed Demon's Souls servers if they were practically empty, but obviously fan outcry kept them up. So good on Atlus for listening to fans.
 
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