Has ATI given up?

M

menace2society

Limp Gawd
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Aug 2, 2006
Messages
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Has ATI bowed to nvidia's domanace If so its a sad day for us consumers. The absence of competiton breeds over priced mediacraty:(. My 2 cents whats yours
 
What the hell?

ATI has the best-performing sub-$200 card in the HD 3850, and the HD 3870 approaches 8800GT speeds for $50 less.

Both of these cards offer great bang for the buck.
 
not only that but the power draw is minimal, 2 of these is less draw than a 2900xt lmao
 
kumquat said:
What the hell?

ATI has the best-performing sub-$200 card in the HD 3850, and the HD 3870 approaches 8800GT speeds for $50 less.

Both of these cards offer great bang for the buck.
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not when 8800GT's are in supply. The true value of the 8800GT is in the 200-250 range and eventually the price will get there. And they are about to release their 8800GT 256MB which will be 10 bucks less than the MSRP of the HD3850...
 
The 3850 totally destroys the 8600GTS. Midrange cards are where the sales and money are.
 
Hell no. The gap isn't as huge as alot of people would think with the 8800GT barely leading.

If ATI would get some better fucking drivers, then maybe their performance would go up a bit.
 
Denki said:
not when 8800GT's are in supply. The true value of the 8800GT is in the 200-250 range and eventually the price will get there. And they are about to release their 8800GT 256MB which will be 10 bucks less than the MSRP of the HD3850...
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No guarantee that the 8800GT will suddenly drop from a $269-$279 baseline to near the current price of the HD3870, which is $219-$229.

I'm getting the 8800GT, but the HD3870 is a great card at the price. The $50 price difference isn't trivial.
 
Who cares about the mainstream market? Obviously the GPU manufacturers as it constitutes the biggest market and "Joe Public", mainstream consumer.

But enthusiasts want enthusiast products. Not these sub-average "bang for the buck" value products that can't even outperform products from over a year ago.

And this is where AMD loses - it cannot compete at the highest (i.e. enthusiast) levels in either the CPU as well as the GPU markets. So the answer appears to be "yes", AMD has given up in the enthusiast market because it is unable to compete here, but is now targeting the mainstream market instead. And because of this lack of competition at the highest levels, nVidia responds in kind.
 
Maybe they failed to enthusiats, but considering 1% of people out there can afford enthusast cards, its a win for AMD/ATI.

Keep in mind that the majority of their money comes from mainstream buyers and OEM deals. The HD3870 won big against the 8800GT by securing multiple OEM contracts that are already now advertising HD3870 CrossFire and so that's a lot of 3870s being sold to OEMs alone.

So no, they didn't succeed in the high-end but that wasn't the point: the 3800's were always advertised as mid-range mainstream cards and (especially the 3850) they succeeded!
 
ZerazaX said:
Maybe they failed to enthusiats, but considering 1% of people out there can afford enthusast cards, its a win for AMD/ATI.

Keep in mind that the majority of their money comes from mainstream buyers and OEM deals. The HD3870 won big against the 8800GT by securing multiple OEM contracts that are already now advertising HD3870 CrossFire and so that's a lot of 3870s being sold to OEMs alone.

So no, they didn't succeed in the high-end but that wasn't the point: the 3800's were always advertised as mid-range mainstream cards and (especially the 3850) they succeeded!
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The focus is now on value and price rather than technical innovation. In the long term, this is "bad" for both enthusiasts and the public and will lead to less rapid advances in technology. Innovation is far better than price wars in the consumer segment.

AMD have been forced to fight for the mainstream segment because they are unable to compete at the highest levels. If they were technically capable, they would have aimed for the top as there are significant market benefits to being the best (even as you sell to the mainstream).

Anyway, the market consensus is that they are doing relatively badly and this is reflected in the share price changes verses nVidia (and Intel).
 
Cowboy I think you missed the point, basically the OP is saying that AMD no longer aims to raise the bar anymore. They would rather build Civics instead of racecars, which is a sad day because this an enthusiast forum, and crowd.
 
I wouldn't go as far as saying they've given up on the high end. GPUs have been getting increasingly larger and it's about time that they slowed down and stopped with the monster cards. At the rate they were going we'd be seeing 4 slot single GPUs within a year or two. The power and heat from the cards is already way higher than it needed to be. Relying on multiple GPUs to get that high end performance seems like a reasonable enough expectation. And in the high end I'm sure a quad fire setup could probably do a reasonable job.
 
I think people are missing a bigger picture here. Going for the mainstream might sound like giving in but is it really? There are tons of pics floating around showing Crossfire in a 4 card configuration. Now consider if this is true for a moment, is there anything at the price that can match 4x3870 cards in performance?

I mean run with that for a moment, compare dollar to dollar an $800 ATI rig in video could beat the same $800 single card solution, nVidias high end, does that mean they have really abandon the high end? To beat that higher end ATI rig you need to spend double the money with nVidea? Does this really constitute a win?

I think we are seeing a new AMD/ATI that is about playing smarter not harder. I can see how some will feel this is abandoning something but I see it as a shift in focus that will in the end mean lower prices and contuned performance increases.
 
Computer Ed said:
I think people are missing a bigger picture here. Going for the mainstream might sound like giving in but is it really? There are tons of pics floating around showing Crossfire in a 4 card configuration. Now consider if this is true for a moment, is there anything at the price that can match 4x3870 cards in performance?

I mean run with that for a moment, compare dollar to dollar an $800 ATI rig in video could beat the same $800 single card solution, nVidias high end, does that mean they have really abandon the high end? To beat that higher end ATI rig you need to spend double the money with nVidea? Does this really constitute a win?

I think we are seeing a new AMD/ATI that is about playing smarter not harder. I can see how some will feel this is abandoning something but I see it as a shift in focus that will in the end mean lower prices and contuned performance increases.
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Good point. It allows people to increase performance at their leisure. They can implement cards as they see the need or as their financial condition permits. More options in trying to reach that enthusiast goal. Instead of having to drop big dollars right from the get go, you can ramp up performance a few hundred dollars at a time. But at any point you can back off and say I'm good at this level without having broke the bank at the outset.
 
Ati 9800, 6800 ultra, 7800gtx, 7950gx2,8800gtx my last five graphics cards all purchased in there hayday. If money was of no concern, who among you would be excited about the lates video cards. None of which allows for the best visual experience available. With such eye candy available, I have no interest in behaving like a diabetic. We are up to four cents
 
No. Why? Just because ATI has "given up" *this* generation doesn't mean they've given up for good. They really haven't given up yet since it takes more than 2 years to create a *real* next gen chip/board design (the cycle time between major releases is approx. 18 months). So wait until late 2008 / early 2009 when ATI's *real* next gen chip is released to make your final judgement. This release is just an interim die shrink / optimization release.

Did ATI give up when they released the Radeon 8500 which sucked rocks compared to Nvidia's Geforce 4 ti4400-4800's? No, they came out with the 9700 that blew away Nvidia's 5800.
Did Nvidia give up when they came out with the 5800? No, they came back to parity with the 7800 series and with the 8800 series, they blew ATI away.
 
bbf said:
No. Why? Just because ATI has "given up" *this* generation doesn't mean they've given up for good. They really haven't given up yet since it takes more than 2 years to create a *real* next gen chip/board design (the cycle time between major releases is approx. 18 months). So wait until late 2008 / early 2009 when ATI's *real* next gen chip is released to make your final judgement. This release is just an interim die shrink / optimization release.

Did ATI give up when they released the Radeon 8500 which sucked rocks compared to Nvidia's Geforce 4 ti4400-4800's? No, they came out with the 9700 that blew away Nvidia's 5800.
Did Nvidia give up when they came out with the 5800? No, they came back to parity with the 7800 series and with the 8800 series, they blew ATI away.
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If we are going to have to wait until 2009 to get a new monster like what the 8800GTX was a year ago, people are going to die....

Though that is highly improbable, lets see what nvidia has for us next month and January
 
I think, they (both companies) should stop making any better cards altogether.

Why? To let poor people like me catch up in the e-penis race. :D
 
You have to remember that AMD and ATI both had way less money to spend on R&D and Marketing compared to Intel and Nvidia. Now with the huge loss of AMD, they are having problem keeping up with the high end stuff but are great for the best bang for your cash.
 
You know, for someone who never buy a GPU that cost more than $200, this round of release can be considered as the best release ever, you will get a really nice jump from HD2600XT to HD3850. Sure, if you are always buying the high end cards, the 8800GTX has made a big jump from 7900GTX last year so this year, it seems like nothing has happpened, but for someone who always stay at 6600/X600>7600/X1600>8600/HD2600 price point, this round of release is a more significant upgrade than the 8800GTX release last year :D.

I think that, I would rather see this kind of big jump every year at the $200 price point than having a big jump every year at the $500 price point.
 
kumquat said:
What the hell?

ATI has the best-performing sub-$200 card in the HD 3850, and the HD 3870 approaches 8800GT speeds for $50 less.

Both of these cards offer great bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

Woohoo! 1 year later and all they have are 2 new mid range parts :rolleyes: you gotta be kidding me.
 
they did have to deal with the merger tho? maybe that drained a lot of resources (and screwed all the development of our precious gaming cards :D)
 
menace2society said:
Has ATI bowed to nvidia's domanace If so its a sad day for us consumers. The absence of competiton breeds over priced mediacraty:(. My 2 cents whats yours
Click to expand...

When you complete middle school, come back and edit that post please. For the logic and English both.
 
Well ati now has a very good value card, it isnt as powerful as an 8800gt, but for the money its a great buy because its not far behind. But Ati still cant touch the high end market, so Im a little dissapointed.
 
You guys complain when you can't afford the big cards and big price, so they BOTH finally release a mid range card that is right there with the uber cards but at LESS than HALF the price.

Yeah they said screw you enthusiasts, but we make up such a SMALL percentage of sales compared to the average joe.

Also keep in mind, that a lot of people are going to be on equal footing now as far as performance goes so maybe now we won't have to suffer those "let's make sure it works on 3-4 year old technology crap and just say, let's code it, make it look good for x generation and focus more on the game design.
 
The 8800 GT is a great card for the money, but at the same time, all it is is last years high end card at about half price. That's fairly typical with microchips. The problem is, what has come out on the high end this year that will be half price next year?

While AMD has introduced some good mainstream parts, there total lack of competitiveness at the high end can't be a good thing for them or consumers.
 
and hey honda built an army of civics...then from there made motorcycles, then made dirt bike parts, now look, they are the top 5 of the automotive feild...sales wise..
cheap parts + mainstream = $$$$$ -> R&D -> better gear


IMO of course:)
 
Well in the past, I have just picked up the hottest PC my local retailers were currently selling at the time I was looking. This is the first enthusiast system I have ever built. Due to my buying 'off the shelf' systems, I have ended up with mostly nVidia GPU's. I used to look over the fence at some of the ATI cards that were runners in their day and think, sweet.

I really wanted ATI to keep swapping speed king crown with nVidia.

Good midrange cards, but not what I was looking for, nor the type ATI used to release.

I don't want to run 2, 3, or 4 GPU's to play Crysis at 1200 X 1900.

It burns my @#$ that nVidia could probably put the 1TF card out this year if they wanted to, or if ATI would have taken the speed crown. Neither happened so the enthusiast gets a sharp stick in the a$$ in 2007,

We are going to settle for the new Dec 8800GTS, and use our one time step up on a Jan GTX or Ultra refresh card.

nVidia, and lack of crown swapping with ATI dashed my 1TF dream.

I do think nVidia would have gotten more money out of me if they would have just kept their word, and released it in the timeframe their VP indicated.

Mid 2008 my money will be gone, the wife looking the other way while I buy all my parts for my system will be over. Window of opportunity passed. :(

My step up will be my last wild card to use, then my GPU is going to have to do me for a long time.

I hope keeping the 1TF Monster out of production works out for nVidia..... NOT!!!

I don't think it will in my case..

First nVidia was telling us DirectX 10.1 was a big deal on their new series cards, now they say it's not and trying to get 8 series refresh cards out the door......

1TF in 07 was the plan 6 months ago, now their performance answer is buy 5 of thier midrange cards..... The 8 series I might add !!

We are keeping to our normal release cycle, now it's a er no new 9 series cards in 07.... WTF!!

Who is at the helm, and what will be the companies direction next week?

I am giving Fudzilla more street cred than nVidia now a days... Sad!

I am still waiting to see if they are going to rename the entire 7 series to the 8800GTS and gear up for a Dec release...
 
Cat1yst said:
and hey honda built an army of civics...then from there made motorcycles, then made dirt bike parts, now look, they are the top 5 of the automotive feild...sales wise..
cheap parts + mainstream = $$$$$ -> R&D -> better gear


IMO of course:)
Click to expand...


And they still can't compete in the upper echelon of automotives on the enthusiast front. Lets see a honda run with an Aston or Ferrari or Porsche (that's not a Boxter). The s2000 is nice but can't be considered high end. The NSX is long in the tooth and their upcoming replacement is rumored to be no match for the current top dogs.

In fact, sounds just like AMD.
 
Aston is too heavy..but as far as sleekness goes...they cant be beat
but back on topic (somewhat)...honda really never tried to go super high end...maybe if you look at volx...they seem a much better example....they build jettas. buy out audi for high medium, then they have bugatti, now look at the yveron, selling at a loss supposedly, the couple million you spend buying one of those beauties, cant even cover for R&D...where does that money come from? probably your jettas and bugs..

AMD follows this route, im sure next gen they will do better, but knowing whoever the heck roadmaps AMD..its been release whatever we have to compete with nvidia late, get put on the grill by reviewers and the community, put the thing back on the drawing board, beat nvidia, take about 3-6 months in the lead, then rinse and repeat as nvidia releases next gen

and hondas are fun for tuning...its like overclocking, but much more expensive and complicated than a simple high end mobo, a couple regulator mods, and a extreme cooling system, course theres subaru...acura...etc..but thats for general mayham
 
computerpro3 said:
And they still can't compete in the upper echelon of automotives on the enthusiast front. Lets see a honda run with an Aston or Ferrari or Porsche (that's not a Boxter). The s2000 is nice but can't be considered high end. The NSX is long in the tooth and their upcoming replacement is rumored to be no match for the current top dogs.

In fact, sounds just like AMD.
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hmm cant compete, how ? raw speed, sex appeal, got news for you, companies compete with profits and one would hope, shareholder value. Compare Ferrari profits with Honda and tell me which one wins. ( a horrible analogy on my part since AMD is neck deep in debt)

Question is will/can AMD (in case no one noticed, they bought ATI, ATI is now just a marketing name) fund the R+D for further development of high end cards when the big profits in video has been and probably always will be integrated solutions and laptops. Does AMD touted "path to the future" with Fusion ring a bell ? AMD just about has little recourse but to go to where the big money/profits are and that is not the very small market of high end enthusiast boards. I really hope I am wrong and they do continue with enthusiast performance products, a high end market dominated by just one manuf is not a good thing.
 
BillParrish said:
hmm cant compete, how ? raw speed, sex appeal, got news for you, companies compete with profits and one would hope, shareholder value. Compare Ferrari profits with Honda and tell me which one wins. ( a horrible analogy on my part since AMD is neck deep in debt)
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Well, I did state it in my very first sentence:

And they still can't compete in the upper echelon of automotives on the enthusiast front
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They aren't as fast, they don't handle as well, they don't have as much sex appeal, they have cheaper interiors, use inferior materials, aren't finished as well, and have no panache. Sure, honda may be more profitable, but do you think I give a damn when it comes time for me to buy my car? I wouldn't have a V8 Vantage on order if I did (wish I could justify the DBS....:eek:).
 
ATI struggled to compete against the Geforce 6 cards... ATI was bent over prison style by the 7 series cards. ATI v. Geforce 8 is worse than Muhammad Ali V. Larry Holmes. Did any of you see that fight? Ali could have died.
 
menace2society said:
Ati 9800, 6800 ultra, 7800gtx, 7950gx2,8800gtx my last five graphics cards all purchased in there hayday. If money was of no concern, who among you would be excited about the lates video cards. None of which allows for the best visual experience available. With such eye candy available, I have no interest in behaving like a diabetic. We are up to four cents
Click to expand...
I quote myself. If ATI or AMD for that matter, never had the best top end performer who would care what they have to offer on the mainstream level. There is a intimate relationship between top end preformance and bottom line profits. We now have a total of 5 cents :cool:
 
Sigh.

RV670 is the precursor for their two-chips on one solution next year. Remember also that ATI still has other markets for their hardare that is doing well and making them money for R&D. ie: Wii & Xbox 360 both use ATI.
 
dagon11985 said:
ATI struggled to compete against the Geforce 6 cards... ATI was bent over prison style by the 7 series cards.
Click to expand...



wrong and wrong. :rolleyes:

bent over prison style?

ever heard of the x1950xt? x800xtpe?


if crossfireX scales like it should with 4 gpus hooked in, the crown will be theirs for 2007, like it or not.
 
So it takes 4 ATI cards to beat out an Nvidia card or 2? Wow... that's amazing! :rolleyes:
 
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