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Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by Pachalski, Mar 22, 2017.
Hope you like the result so far! I'm eager to hear what you think
WOW, just WOW!
This is like M1 2.0 (sorry, I had to, someone will anyway ).
It's only 10.0 litres with a 120x240 AIO solution!
One thing I'd suggest is that you enable pump+res installation for those with custom liquid setups. It should be possible when used with a short/ITX size GPU...
Edit: Also, it would be great if you can enable the PSU to be installed to the top. The pictured orientation makes sense with a rad on top, but for heatsink cooling, PSU exhausting inside the case will only cause the hot air to be recycled by the CPU heatsink. The other alternative is to almost fully enclose the PSU bracket and open some vents on the bottom plate for hot air to escape...
I sincerely hope this becomes successful. There is nothing like it on the market.
If one can make a SFF case that fits full watercooling, count me in! I like the TopHat concept, but hopefully it's not a separate purchase and all TopHats come with the base case purchase, as other cases have tried to go for the "modular expandability" concept and failed due to nobody really wanting to purchase additional parts.
Pachalski, I have an idea for your "Spine": Make it into an S-shape to create a compartment for the motherboard, and another compartment for the PSU.
This way, the hot air from the PSU would not reach the motherboard area. It would also be much easier to implement a PSU bracket to be installed on top (to flip the PSU upside-down) but this wouldn't be as important.
So the top-hats are required in all scenarios, just in the small, medium or large spacing. If this is the case, then I am wondering what the function of the meshed top over the spine (58% holes) is? seems to add a significant level of restriction and noise if fans are placed directly onto it, but I cant see any other function, apart from maybe structural integrity of the spine.
If possible, conserve the 120mm slot mounting holes but open up the top of the case to allow for un-restricted airflow. Having a 50% top panel is enough restriction.
I also second having a PSU that exhausts upwards. This is a very important factor to me too. My SF450 fan doesnt really spin up, and having it exhausting upwards allows for a natural convection pathway.
No, it seems tophats are all optional. The case without the tophats is complete. If you want the additional volume offered by a tophat, you can get it, is what I understand...
But you have a point with the internal vents on top... Pachalski, I also think it would be better if you can remove the whole vent area there, but just retain the mounting holes as a frame around.
Without the tophat, would that mean that the front 1/3 of the case has a large hole opening?
Ah, I looked at the photos again, yes, the top hat are extensions.
So in the 'normal' situation, there must therefore be the 'glossy top cover plate' that sits over the top.
So if the glossy panel sits on top of the top panel of the spine, Then we have two sheets of material, each with different hole pattern siting flat against each other, we are at best going to see 50% passage ,but very much more likely to see something more like 20% holes!!
If the holes don't line up between the spine top panel and the glossy top panel , there is a very good chance for a very restrictive top panel.
I am even more worried now about why there is a meshed panel on the top of the spine. Im sure there is something more that we cant see yet
Apart from those things, its a great looking case, and has great promise. My likely use is Air, so a larger quiet heatsink for the CPU and maybe a couple of 120mm fans on the top for exhaust, and my case is set.
Yeah, he calls that internal structure with the mounting and vent hole pattern the "Core" and the glossy top cover goes on top of everything. I think the tophats are exactly as pictured: they don't come with another glossy top (duh, I guess) and they just install on top of the "Core".
Still, he really should get rid of those vented areas on the "Core"... They don't add any significant structural strength... Just retain the frame around them.
But then again, I really think you should look into implementing that S-shape with the "Spine", completely separate the motherboard from the PSU, and then enable to optionally flip the PSU bracket to install on top. This would impact the Core as well, but should not be a problem to do the necessary changes.
He can't outright flip the PSU as that would interfere with the rad installation on top. But being able to install it either orientation would be golden.
Really love the exterior of this case and the great photography on your website.
Any chance you can reconsider the branding on the front?
I think it takes away a little from the overall minimalist aesthetic.
How far along in the design process are you? Kickstarter soon?
Do you already have more pictures of finished builds?
Especially interested in the cable management and the cpu cooler compatibility.
Info on compatibility and temperatures of Noctua L9x65, Big Shuriken 2, Thermalright AXP-100 would be amazing.
The opening behind the board should allow you to use 4mm motherboard standoffs even with m2-SSDs, in case you need the extra 2mm for the cooler.
Lots of questions, I know, but your case got me really excited. Best of luck!
That's still a bit deep. With SFF systems, desk area is often what needs to be optimized, not height or depth.
I also don't think that it is a good trade-off for size and performance to do a narrow case with a PCIe cable on the back. That one is for cases where you optimize for size over performance.
Performance is limited by the size of the CPU cooler, not to mention that you would need a $100 PCIe extension cable or lose performance by using a cheaper one.
And BTW, you should really get yourself a proper mousepad and a saucer. Mousing on that uneven table can't be good, and pearl-sugar and mice sensors don't mix.
Also, please learn the key combo on your keyboard for the multiplication symbol and use that instead of the letter x ! I would guess that it is Option-Shift-' (I.e. Option-*) in Swedish layout on Macintosh.
Wow. Could you be more pedantic and vitriol-filled?
Pachalski, this is an awesome idea, and I can't wait to see where it goes. The case looks great, and I hope you don't take comments like the one quoted to heart.
Findecanor did have a point about the overall dimensions, but while the footprint of the case is somewhat larger than in other cases we've seen, I think that's fine. You're targeting style and a particular niche; that is to say, high performance computing based around the user's needs, which perhaps fits in with a modern home theater setup better than a more console-shaped device would nowadays.
Thank you for the nice words and the tangible feedback
The fundamental idea has been a simple yet flexible base design for the community to build or request your own design upon. I.e. blueprints will be available for you guys to customize your setup even further - call it "open source" if you what With that said, we still need to review the base design based on all your comments before launch to see that as many of your requirements as possible will fit (either as standard, as available brackets or as your own mods).
Regarding the PSU we just did it possible to move to the top, exhaust upwards. Will post pictures later.
Once again - thanks for input, means a lot
Good input. Would it be an "ok" idea to make it available in two versions 1. XS and 2. S/M/L including a TopHat of choice? Hard to balance cost reduction vs. complexity
I'll look into that. The idea was to reduce complexity in needing a mounting "floor" when putting on a TopHat. Regarding PSU a new solution will be proposed (the possibility of flipping it 180 degrees and closer to the top)
Swedish flag... such a knock off
- branding front is under complete redesign thanks for +1
- alpha prototype in a week or so, KS in early april and shipment (according to supplier in June/July)
- will look into 4 mm standoffs
I like the idea of making an A4-SFX with water cooling on top
1) Are those polymer profiles something standard you can buy in meters and cut to your size?
2) How are you going to make the bends of the side panels? Looks like they will need to go a bit up front and back for this radius or your machining will be quite expensive
3) is top mounted usb/hdmi front panel going up with top hats being added or will they have just holes for it?
4) It's quite a lot of precision machining to do with this design
5) top-hats mounting looks like something that might break off in mobile use - is that a target for this case(portability)?
6) What's your target price point? Will the accessories be included in it or cables and top hats will be paid extra?
I really like the external design - good job on that.
Thanks, love your attention to details
1. The polymer profils might be able to acquire seperattely by the meter, however the ones we've chosen (best sliding vs rigidity performance) to include are made uniquely for us. Just curious: why buying them by the meter?
2. Both the spine and the shell are extruded not bent or folded. That improves regidity, reduces conplexity and inproves production efficemcy at the same time. Hoppfullt a key sellingpoint for Ghost compared to the shaped plate boxes we are used to
3.yep, that's the idea. Same panel moved up a notch
4. I know took a lot of prototyping to get it right. The extruded concept helpt a lot though
5. Portability might be a use case we need to look in to as I got the comment just the other day. If that is the case we might need to reinforce the structure in some places and make a mount for a handle/strap. Promise to conceptualize that soon. Any good ideas on what's could improve "portability"?
6. We are aiming for a price point close to our competitors. However early birds on Kickstarter will be offered a price significally bellow retail price. TopHats are a small extra or as a bundle.
loving this case even when i am completely happy with my m1 guess the S1 stands for sweden number 1
subbed for the kickstater to kick off
few things though
-how many ssd , 2.5" can fit without tophats, will this number change with a redesigned S frame?
-would like to know if a EK predator will fit and which tophat to go with it
-also when expanding water cooling, will the gpu in/out-let holes not be in the way of the radiator in the tophat above?
Just wanted to know if it's something widely available and standard supply - buying them by the meters in a manner of speaking about it. Usually such polymer profiles are custom made or parts of bigger product so I was wondering if you got something out of the shelf that can be used in chassis.
So you're extruding it out of aluminium blocks on a CNC - won't this be too expensive ?
I think that it might not fit within the lowest tophat then - on the render front panel pcb looks a lot bigger than 14mm.
You mean close to M1 and A4-SFX? If that's it, then we're talking about $225~$250 and all essential accessories included except for the TopHats?
I'm digging in the price point because it looks to me that you might be able to fit the case body within such price target but there's many more things you'll have to include to make the case a complete product. Unless you've got your own CNC shop, extruding the elements will be really expensive and even then it might take a lot of time complete the batch.
It might be cool to watch CNC or 3D printing, but when you've got 1000 units to make and extruding each piece takes for example roughly 15 minutes, then we're talking about months of work around the clock.
Oh, then I understand your concern I mean that we are extruding them, pushing heated aluminum though a die - just like you do with an aluminium profile. The result is a 50 meter long pipe/profile that is cut in the right length and then only the holes are CNCd
when putting on the S TopHat the panel will cover half on the TopHat and half on the spine (that is somewhat true for the M TopHat aswell actually)
How is the "hat" secured? I would love to do a watercooled build in this case, but i need to know its secure.
Awesome, I didn't think about this. So the panels can be made pretty quickly then. The frame however still need a lot of CNC'in though.
Doesn't top-hat block the ability to slide the side panel from the top? How are you going to secure those screws from the inside with panels installed?
Hope to publish rendering and live footage of details shortly (understand that its hard to see the complete design on the pics I shared) but meanwhile: the tophat is fixated to the shell with screws on the sides and in the top of the core there is a gap in which the usb/pwr panel can slide.
This is one good looking case!
I have been a big fan of the parallel mobo/GPU idea since I first learned about it.
Also a big fan of GPU, CPU, and PSU all being able to pull in cool air from outside of the case.
I have been reading about the Dancase a4 case (48mm max CPU cooler height), and It sounds like the people that just got it are having a difficult time cooling the CPU without making it sound like a hairdryer or vacuum cleaner, so I am glad to see that you have designed this case to allow a little bit more room for the CPU cooler.
My thoughts regarding filters:
Please allow space for filters between the side panels and fans. One of my favorite things about my Ncase M1 is that I can put Demci flex filters in between the side panels of the case and the intake fans. The important idea here is that the filters are hidden, but can still easily be removed and cleaned without moving the computer at all.
My thoughts regarding the idea of moving the PSU to the top:
I think this is a good idea because the PSU heat can escape through the top of the case instead of being vented into the inside of the case.
Also, SSDs/hdds on the bottom is better than on top because if they are put on top, they block off the top vents, and would be cooked by all the heat from the rest of the system that needs to go out through the top.
My thoughts regarding the case footprint size:
In my situation, width and depth are more critical than height. I wonder if I would be able to put some feet on the front and stand it up, so that the longest dimension is the height? (This would leave the "rear" IO panels on the top, but I'm okay with that.)
Questions about graphics card compatibility:
There are many popular cards that are significantly taller and/or thicker than the reference design. Could your provide a more specific thickness and also the height limits? Various new aftermarket gtx1080ti cards, such as asus strix and msi gaming X cards, are rumored to be 2.5 slot cards. (up to 52mm thick) Does this mean they won't fit?
Best of luck with your case design! I will enjoy watching as it develops!
It's secured with 4 M2 Allen screes in the bortom of the Tophat and top of the Shell (or another TopHat)
How much weight can they carry? Incase i grab the case by the top.
Ok, let's dive down the geek hole for a while
The T6/T6511 alloy that we are currently testing has a Tensile strength of 310 MPa and a Yeald Streangth of 290MPa, so about the same strength as a better chef knife but since we are working with 2.5mm in width these components can withstand significantly more.
This has all been simulated but not tested in reality since all the prototypes have been made with another Alloy so far. But theoretically this means that you could apply about a grown Swedish mans body weight (79kg) (or pull as hard) on a single square millimeter of the cases ametal components (in practice impossible) without it deforming or elongating it.
I'm not sure how to describe the strength of this case better, maybe by saying that in theory an elephant could easily stand on it with it's full body weight on one foot?
There is currently a 5 mm gap between the top plane (the platform for creative builders) and the outer sidewall where filters slide in. the bottom is 10 mm wider than the pale above. The spine has extruded slots to guide them straight down, you can pull them out after lifting the outer top off (the one with the rag tag of your choice). Are you saying you want us to adjust this?
The final redesign of the case in this matter is complete and the orientation of the PSU will be the builders choice, nice and tidy cable management or better air flow (still needs to be tested) and room for an additional 2.5" Drive underneath
I don't see why this wouldn't work. Air flow would be affected and subsequently noise levels, but honestly I'm working daily using this case and I never hear it, not even during gaming hour with a i7700 and an MSI 1080 ti in it.
Current GPU dimension compatibility
305 x 144 x 41 mm with filter on GPU side
305 x 144 x 46 mm no filter on GPU side
GPU Width compatibility
The current depth of the GPU side of the case is 51 mm, Spine to inside of shell. this is adjustable and the real estate on this side of the Spine is competing with multiple components on the other side. Adjusting this would mean new tooling and some heavy lifting. Frazhna What is your opinion on the distribution here case?
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the design. I just wanted to be sure there was enough room for filters, and it sounds like there is.
I didn't realize you already had tooling done. I think the choice of limiting GPU coolers to 2 slots so there will be more space for a cpu cooler is worth the trade-off. Having enough room to fit the NH-L9x65 is a big plus
Haha, no reason to be sorry, I'm sorry if a came off wrong and our lack of clarity in the descriptions.
Just to be clear, the 4mm MB standoffs that would make the NH-L9x65 possible is not solved yet, the chamber in the corners of the Spine profile are causes the MB back plate to fit poorly with the 4 mm stand offs, still working on the fitt. For now we are at 63-64 mm
That sounds pretty legit. I'd love to run a box of that material over with my car (skoda citygo), let me know if you need me to test it, I live in Denmark so I'm closeby.
What cpu cooler are you using with the case at the moment?
I guess as a fellow swede I must chime in and say it's looking nice. Though, some thoughts/questions.
I like the materials and tooling you consider.
From what I understand, no ventilation holes at the bottom? Wouldn't some holes there help with air flow and temperatures?
I assume the large TopHat will fit a 240mm radiator? Will you show any example of this? Personally, I am interested in testing a custom loop in this case if possible.
I see there is some kind of perforated cover on top (58% open area is mentioned). How would this work with the TopHat? Would fans suck air from within the case, through the side panels? I am also concerned with turbulence noise when fans are placed directly in contact with a perforated area. For example, side panel pans on the Ncase M1 suffers from extra noise from this, and also fans on the A4 case.
Will you offer windowed version for the shell? I think this would mostly be interesting to see a water cooling setup, but then I am concerned with air intake.
It's interesting that you mention that you can't really hear much from the case during gaming. I assume this is because the thick aluminium isolates quite a bit of noise?
Good that you consider multiple placement of the PSU. Want to keep that power cord subdued. When on the bottom, it reminds me of the Metis case. However, then it kinda blows the wamr air downward, which goes into the case and becomes recycled.
People probably want to use a vandal switch for power on/off.
Regarding branding, I would like to see it quite minimal. Perhaps just like Ncase, with a very small text somewhere. A4 case does not have any permanent branding, which I think many like.
Lastly, really good job on this!
This case has a very high potential for greatness! Guess I'll have to be following this thread along with the one on Sweclockers.
Nah, that would ruin the sleek looks (and should be quite problematic to fit as well, large as they usually are).
Btw, go with the blue colour of the swedish flag for the third colour.
Just noticed your case is not on linussomethingsomethingtips yet, what are you waiting for?
Vents in bottom are not discarded, but we will need be able to produce some support in the data before adding this change.
This is actually where the project once started, with the aim to create a solution for a SFF case with water cooling compatibility. Our first ever prototype was a laser cut 3 mm thick aluminium plate that after some bending looked much like the Spine only standing up. I'll publish pictures from this some day. So this has been a defining feature from the start. We have tested nonferrous closed system solutions, never any custom builds (to old for that?). They are all working fine but some better than others. The stiffer the hoses are the tougher it is to make them fit where zip tights are needed to put through the tread holes and hold the hoses in and have them clear the memory sticks. I'll defiantly post some different configurations of this soon. 240 x 120 rads or 120 x 120 have been successfully tested.
Yes, we are looking into this and will make the changes needed to avoid as much turbulence as possible, currently we are looking at a solution where the open area of this plate is increased significantly. There are multiple purposes of this "platform of creativity" so it wont disappear all together.
We will not offer windowed version for the shell but we hope to see the modding community handle this
When I got back into building PCs again my biggest surprise was how quiet all the components were despite a significant jump in performance. In the early days everything was constantly needing more power and made more noise, now it seams lite that pendulum is going back and is now at a point where fresh air keeps everything very quiet. Let us post some noise results for different configurations for comparison.
We love the solution with multiple PSU orientations.
Some probably will
We are evaluating some new design of the front graphics, maybe a vote could help us understand preferences in different markets since this is a less scientific question.
The large top hat would definitely be a good opportunity to use in conjunction with a hybrid cooled graphics card. The radiator for their AIO coolers tend to be on the slimmer side, and they should be able to mount to the top. Or just with any AIO be it CPU or GPU.
Some more thoughts.
Vents in bottom could help to draw in fresh air for CPU coolers where the fan is mounted underneath the heatsink, blowing air through the heatsink and out through the side panel. This turned out to be quite successful for people in the A4 case using the now dicontinued Nexus cooler. In general I think some strategic holes at the bottom seems like a good idea, if it doesn't come with obvious drawbacks.
I read that you consider shorter motherboard standoff's to fit for example the Noctua NH-L9x65. I think finding compatible coolers for this case is already a much improved situation, compared to the A4. So I am not sure you need to adjust to 4mm standoffs. I think at least 6mm is the recommended spec, as well, to be sure M.2 SSD:s fit without trouble, etc.
Regarding the shell. I also read on Sweclockers that you had a mesh version of the entire shell? Seems like a great idea. I can imagine a complete transparent acrylic version of the shell, as well, hehe. Suitable only for water coolering of course, given that you have vents in the bottom, and probably superhard to manufacture. Would make make the case look an aquarium. For the metal shell, a powercoated/sand blasted matte finish would be interesting.
Didn't see you link to your homepage, as you did on Sweclockers. Perhaps not allowed on hardforum. But anyway, you need enough exposure to make people aware of the case to get a successful kickstarter. While it is very exciting to see that you plan to offer this case soon, and not years later, good preparation is needed for kickstarter I think. People need to feel that they can trust you, and that no details/information is left out. You are of course obviously doing that by entering forums like now.
In general, I like your attention to detail. That is what makes projects successful in the end.
Regarding switches. There are quite small vandal switches. For example 12mm ones that people use on the M1.
12mm would be very large in this case. Take a look at the i/o module where the current power button resides.