ultimatebyte
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Good guy !
Nice sum up.
What i always thought too. So the S4 doesn't have a better input lag, it sucks... I'll wait for the final presentation anyway, soon !
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Galaxy Note II screen latency?
- Thread starter PRogers86
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What i always thought too. So the S4 doesn't have a better input lag, it sucks... I'll wait for the final presentation anyway, soon !
Skripka
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I find it hilarious that some people make an issue out of input lag smaller than the amount of time it takes a human to blink their eyes.
We all have our senses of humor.
Monstieur
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I can poke your eyes out like I poke a touchscreen before you can blink. I'm fast enough, so it's an issue.
Skripka
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I could make a really funny Yo Momma zinger right now...but I'll refrain.
ultimatebyte
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Your comparaison is stupid, if you're thinking like that : human eye can see a 1/2000s (0,5ms) flash. So what do you think about a 1/7s (140ms) latency ?
Skripka
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If my comparison is stupid...how stupid is comparing the ability to resolve a strobe flash and LED panel input lag?
If your gaming is so goddamn important, get a flipping PS Vita. I.e. a purpose-built device for gaming. All-in-one devices always fail at being perfect in all venues.
ultimatebyte
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The target of my comment was to be stupid, as your comparaison with a blinking eye...
Now i'll compare with audition, you'll say it's not the same, but anyway, as a sound engineer student, that's something i know.
=> In a profesionnal studio recording, if you've got more than 10ms latency for the voice return or instrument return in the headphones, you estimate that the singer or music player won't be able to perform correctly (i tried, i do confirm that it's harder ton sing well with a high latency).
Put a delay of 10ms between left and right sound : You'll hear a spacialized sound. Put a 40ms delay, you'll hear a delay.
Is that enough or do you want more ?
Now put a 150ms input lag on a display device you're controlling with your hand => for sure you can percieve it as a delay if you're used to accurate and fast devices.
PS : I don't want a PS Vita, if i wanna play very seriously, i've got a PC. I want a unique device that does everything, that's why i paied 540€.
I'm not playing that much on my phone, only when i'm in the train or when i'm lost somewhere with nothing interesting to do, so not really often. But when i do so, i would like to be able to enjoy it and not being compeled to play scrabble.
But for me, even gmaps, browsing, or scrolling are boring with such an input lag. So if that's what you wanna hear : Sorry to be more sensitive than you are.
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Skripka
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You can use whatever metaphors you want.
It us still laughable as a phone or Web browser does not have the high fidelity low latency requirements of live audio mixing... Most things do not. Tell me, do you get this pissed off when your DVD player's audio decoding causes enough latency that mouths and spoken words don't quite add up? Because even that is far more noticeable than what you're complaining about.
Like I said, get a goddamn gameboy if you're such a speed addict and need a device built for ultra low latency.
ultimatebyte
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See my edit about your last sentense.
And yeah, movies out of sync drive me mad too, but happily, it's very rare. With VLC, there is a function to set an offset between video and audio and to correct it. Happily, i'm not using bad equipment that causes that itself.
PS : Who is still using DVDs ?
I love quality. I love HD, and i'm waiting for 4k, i love FLAC, and i'm waiting for 88khz/24 bits audio distributed to everyone, i love color fidelity on a monitor, and i love responsive devices. Sorry for loving quality, now go listen to your music on youtube, 230MB 240p movies, and gaming with your 150ms input lag device or your 300ms input lag xbox with 480p upscaled to 1080p, bad textures, and aliasing everywhere.
harsaphes
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This is still a thread?
I watch DVD's and love my xbox and my pc for gaming, I also use a 40" TV as a monitor for my PC.... I guess I am not super human as I am not bothered by any "lag" *shrug*, but I am slightly offended that people make generalizations as when they refer to people who do not think the way that they do as "mouth breathers" or in your case implying people who use DVD's and Xbox's as less than you.
ultimatebyte
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My intend was to say most people aren't even able to enjoy quality, and that's the case of those like you considering that input lag isn't an issue. For me it's the same issue as selling CDs with MP3 on it, or bluray with DVD on it : would be a shame. Well selling a touchscreen device that is slightly late compared to your moves is a shame too, not to say a scam.
For sure it's OK to play xbox for exclusive games, to use a TV as a monitor if it doesn't ahve 300ms input lag (and if not for FPS games, almost if played with a gamepad), and to watch DVDs if you bought it a few times ago (or if you don't have money for bluray, or HD VOD). But OMG, when i see people playing a FPS with a gamepad on a game running at 30fps, on a TV that has more than 200ms, on a game having trilinear texture filtering, no anti aliasing and witch is atrociously upscaled, etc., i'm just sorry that it still exists in 2013, and that some people don't even have the ability to see it's just complete crap.
Need more ?
People listen to 128kbits/s MP3 on their phones with ipod headsed.
People don't notice that music is overcompressed and that there is a loudness war going on since at least 10 years.
People watch low quality divx when they can watch full HDrips.
People don't see the difference between an 2K and 4K cinema.
That's not because most people love crap that it should be the normal level => if you give them better quality, i'm pretty optimistic, and think that most of them will be able to enjoy it.
And OMG, i have to tell ya, while writing that, a woman was coming (yeah, and yelling too) i guess right into the stairs of my building as i was able to hear that as if she was here. => I see the question coming, yeah, i've been able to enjoy this quality IRL show with full HD sound, but i'm a bit wondering, because that means people in the stairs can hear when it's happening in my home
Skripka
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By saying the red part, you're either trolling or need to learn physics.
Because in air at STP, sound requires about 3 milliseconds to travel one meter. Which means that for every meter you sit away from your TV, there is 3 milliseconds of latency in the sound, before all other computational decoding factors in audio and video are factored in. It happens all the damn time in TV or DVDs or video games. Anytime audio must travel a distance, there's latency.
You live with audio latency all the time. Your boss yells at you from down the hallway, there's LOTS of milliseconds of latency. Saying "it really bothers me, and thankfully is very rare"...is the pinnacle of having your head in the sand...especially for someone who supposedly is informed about audio.
And as someone who works in audio, the difference between 16bit and 24bit to the end user is not worth the cost in storage. At my old job we were still using 48kHz 16bit for all our in-house archive recordings. Anything higher was pointless. And as from one person who works in audio to another who views latency as anathema, you don't want to know what kind of latency/delay shenanigansare done in live audio reinforcement for anything with any meaningful mixing component.
ultimatebyte
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We're out of the main topic, and sorry to say that but you must be trolling, or quite stupid...
Don't you think as an sound engineer student I don't know light is faster than sound ? Not to be pretentious, but i'm one of the firsts in my promotion. -_-
3 or 12 ms (already 4 meters) between audio and video are negligible when you're watching a movie in your home, what i'm talking about is REAL out of sync video and audio flux from a video file, out of sync just like OUT OF SYNC, so not because of the speed of sound, but because of a decoding or ripping error
=> Like more than 100/300ms, something becoming really disturbing.
I also saw some TVs working like that => They put an display supposed as an "improvement", that creates input lag, but sound isn't delayed => so yo'uve got a late image compared to the sound. How is it even possible to create such a stupid product ? Same question with the Note 2...
Concerning 16 bits / VS 24 bits, you must be misinformed.
- First it depends on your needs, if it's security archives, who cares about perfect fidelity
- Second point, a CD or audio file said 16 bits will always be 16 bits.
- But a analog/digital converter said 16 bits can easilybe 12 effective bits, it will render 16 bits, but with the quality of 12.
=> Now as 16 bits is already not perfect to every human ears, you easily understand why a 24 bits that is 20 effective bits is slightly better than a 16 bits being 12 effective bits.
The 16b/44.1Khz was set 20 years ago, do you really think that it still makes sense as our computers are at least 200x more powerful now, and so storage capacities are ?
And latency can be useful for a live, as sound takes time to travell, if you're using repeat speakers for poeple back in the room, you'll have to delay them to avoid a little out of sync between them that would cause a Comb filter response => would be quite of a problem.
But yeah, once i saw a live in a huuuge live place (stade de france), and was at the exact opposite from the stage => There was at least 1 second delay between what i was seing and hearing => Thanks the band was amazing, but i couldn't get into it at 100%, one of the most disappointing lives i've seen (i've seen like 150 lives in my life).
Now if a digital console has like 2 or even 4ms input lag, nobody will die, even in a live.
Don't you think as an sound engineer student I don't know light is faster than sound ? Not to be pretentious, but i'm one of the firsts in my promotion. -_-
3 or 12 ms (already 4 meters) between audio and video are negligible when you're watching a movie in your home, what i'm talking about is REAL out of sync video and audio flux from a video file, out of sync just like OUT OF SYNC, so not because of the speed of sound, but because of a decoding or ripping error
=> Like more than 100/300ms, something becoming really disturbing.
I also saw some TVs working like that => They put an display supposed as an "improvement", that creates input lag, but sound isn't delayed => so yo'uve got a late image compared to the sound. How is it even possible to create such a stupid product ? Same question with the Note 2...
Concerning 16 bits / VS 24 bits, you must be misinformed.
- First it depends on your needs, if it's security archives, who cares about perfect fidelity
- Second point, a CD or audio file said 16 bits will always be 16 bits.
- But a analog/digital converter said 16 bits can easilybe 12 effective bits, it will render 16 bits, but with the quality of 12.
=> Now as 16 bits is already not perfect to every human ears, you easily understand why a 24 bits that is 20 effective bits is slightly better than a 16 bits being 12 effective bits.
The 16b/44.1Khz was set 20 years ago, do you really think that it still makes sense as our computers are at least 200x more powerful now, and so storage capacities are ?
And latency can be useful for a live, as sound takes time to travell, if you're using repeat speakers for poeple back in the room, you'll have to delay them to avoid a little out of sync between them that would cause a Comb filter response => would be quite of a problem.
But yeah, once i saw a live in a huuuge live place (stade de france), and was at the exact opposite from the stage => There was at least 1 second delay between what i was seing and hearing => Thanks the band was amazing, but i couldn't get into it at 100%, one of the most disappointing lives i've seen (i've seen like 150 lives in my life).
Now if a digital console has like 2 or even 4ms input lag, nobody will die, even in a live.
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This is still a thread because it's ultimatebytes mission in life to enlighten us ignorant mortals that the only reason we love our Note 2's is because we're too stupid to realize how horrible the lag is.
Seriously, life in France must be so amazingly awesome if this is all you're obsessed with. Please, please ultimatebyes, aren't there any other things that interest you? This is literally the ONLY thread you've posted in since you've joined [H]. Take a spin around GenMay. There's some great people/topics going on in there that you might like. Just take a break from the lag issue. You worry me. It can't be healthy for a man to care this much about screen lag on a mobile phone.
ultimatebyte
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Haha, no worries about me, i just had a kind of nolife moment because of exams and revisions. And when i do something, i do it completely. France is cool enough to have time to care about such things.
I had time to work for my exam, make music, see friends, watch TV shows, see funny things over the web, trolling on facebook... And post here ! So really, no worries about me."This is still a thread because it's ultimatebytes mission in life to enlighten us ignorant mortals that the only reason we love our Note 2's is because we're too stupid to realize how horrible the lag is." => Nope, it's the reason why you don't hate your Note 2, not why you love it.
But because you don't notice input lag doesn't mean you're stupid, what is stupid and egoistic is that because someong doesn't notice it, he says caring about it is useless.Godmachine
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Yes , there is some input latency on touchscreens , all of them in fact. The vast and I do mean VAST majority of users of the Note 2 do not notice it. Its not an issue that's discussed at all , rarely so in fact. The first I've ever heard of complaints about it is in this thread. Not on the Android developers forum or any Android forum to think of.
Are there better phones in terms of lesser latency? Sure. If all you are concerned about is input latency that is fractionally less than what's on the Note 2 then why are you in this thread and why haven't you already gone and got the phone you seemingly love to compare the Note 2 against.
Outside of project butter there probably won't be much done about it , in terms of the Note 2. Since this thread offers little in the way of tweaks , methods or future information about what can and will be possibly done about it .. all I can see is a lot of bitching , trolling and little point.
The problem exists but since only a tiny fraction of users are bothered by it , its unlikely to change.
Are there better phones in terms of lesser latency? Sure. If all you are concerned about is input latency that is fractionally less than what's on the Note 2 then why are you in this thread and why haven't you already gone and got the phone you seemingly love to compare the Note 2 against.
Outside of project butter there probably won't be much done about it , in terms of the Note 2. Since this thread offers little in the way of tweaks , methods or future information about what can and will be possibly done about it .. all I can see is a lot of bitching , trolling and little point.
The problem exists but since only a tiny fraction of users are bothered by it , its unlikely to change.
ultimatebyte
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*First part of your message* => already answered like 10 times.
" If all you are concerned about is input latency that is fractionally less than what's on the Note 2 then why are you in this thread and why haven't you already gone and got the phone you seemingly love to compare the Note 2 against."
=> Because we think the Note 2 is the best device for everything, except input lag, I suppose, and because all new devices has the same problem, except the iPhone... I hate iPhones, and I hate the few Windows Phones that could be OK with input lag.
" all I can see is a lot of bitching , trolling and little point."
=> True, i'm sad it turned that way, if someone doesn't care, all he has to do is don't answer.
"The problem exists but since only a tiny fraction of users are bothered by it , its unlikely to change."
=> One of my new little targets in life is to do everything i can to make it change. Input lag haters can do a few things to make it better.
Including
=> Posting on every video, every arcticle, every phone review, where i see or know there is a huge input lag to tell about it.
=> Contacting reviewers so they talk about it in their reviews.
=> Contacting Samsung about it (did it 3 times and will continue) asking for a fix.
=> Posting on forums about it, to make people aware about it, people don't know enough about it.
=> Posting to say how this is a bad thing and how it would be more enjoyable with a better input lag, and to try to find a fix.
=> That's the only way to make something better when the manufacturer is unreachable, and I'm inviting anyone wanting things to be improved to do the same.
" If all you are concerned about is input latency that is fractionally less than what's on the Note 2 then why are you in this thread and why haven't you already gone and got the phone you seemingly love to compare the Note 2 against."
=> Because we think the Note 2 is the best device for everything, except input lag, I suppose, and because all new devices has the same problem, except the iPhone... I hate iPhones, and I hate the few Windows Phones that could be OK with input lag.
" all I can see is a lot of bitching , trolling and little point."
=> True, i'm sad it turned that way, if someone doesn't care, all he has to do is don't answer.
"The problem exists but since only a tiny fraction of users are bothered by it , its unlikely to change."
=> One of my new little targets in life is to do everything i can to make it change. Input lag haters can do a few things to make it better.
Including
=> Posting on every video, every arcticle, every phone review, where i see or know there is a huge input lag to tell about it.
=> Contacting reviewers so they talk about it in their reviews.
=> Contacting Samsung about it (did it 3 times and will continue) asking for a fix.
=> Posting on forums about it, to make people aware about it, people don't know enough about it.
=> Posting to say how this is a bad thing and how it would be more enjoyable with a better input lag, and to try to find a fix.
=> That's the only way to make something better when the manufacturer is unreachable, and I'm inviting anyone wanting things to be improved to do the same.
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Ocellaris
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So what if the GS4 comes out and has worse screen latency than the Note 2? Maybe a few additional people notice, however it will still be an issue that only a "tiny fraction" of users are concerned with. Samsumg won't give a shit since people are not bitching about it anyway. Bitching and trying to get fixes may not be something you do, but when no one does it, things can get worse.
As one example, a lot of Samsungs newer TVs are *worse* than the models they are following. Samsung doesn't care because people are totally willing to drop $1,000 on a big screen TV and they don't notice stuff like terrible light bleed, telescope worth viewing angles, light blobs on dark scenes, terrible black levels, and Smart TV UIs so slow they are worse than an old $40 Roku.
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ultimatebyte
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Glad to see a few people are still smart over here...
T4rd
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Ultimatebye, learn to use that quote button at the bottom of every post. It's easier, faster and makes your rants much easier to follow .
.ultimatebyte
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Ultimatebye, learn to use that quote button at the bottom of every post. It's easier, faster and makes your rants much easier to follow
It's not when you want to answer different parts of a comment separately. I could use a QUOTE balise but "" are just faster, I spend already enough time here.
T4rd
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It's not when you want to answer different parts of a comment separately. I could use a QUOTE balise but "" are just faster, I spend already enough time here.
It's just as fast and easier to read if you just highlight the piece you want to quote and click the
ultimatebyte
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OK, saw the S4 presentation : The intro video with a preview of the phone : Exact same input lag.
ultimatebyte
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Deleted
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SereLaw
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It's just as fast and easier to read if you just highlight the piece you want to quote and click thebutton.
See it works...lol
Thanks t4rd
There's definitely some input lag with the Note 2, using either the S Pen or my finger. I wouldn't be willing to game with it, but for browsing the internet and dialing phone numbers it's not a big deal. I just got my (vzw) Note 2 a couple days ago, does the lag get better with tweaks or custom ROM?
Just out of curiosity what's the input lag on a human being?
I imagine input lag is somewhat different for different senses, what is the lag for:
Sight
Touch (lag from fingers for purposes of this discussion)
Hearing
Smell
Taste
Just out of curiosity what's the input lag on a human being?
I imagine input lag is somewhat different for different senses, what is the lag for:
Sight
Touch (lag from fingers for purposes of this discussion)
Hearing
Smell
Taste
Depends on the human being and age. Some people will never notice, and if given an example will say it's not a big deal or don't notice it much.
Skull_Angel
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Human reaction time was recorded to be ~200ms average on humanbenchmark.com, but I'm not sure if that accounts for system/network latency; that's not saying that the normal human can't visually perceive changes much quicker than that (less than half of that on average, iirc), just that the time it takes to visually acknowledge something and coherently respond to it takes about that long (you certainly can train yourself to automatically respond to certain stimuli even faster as well).
I do think there's a bit of lag comparing my SG3 and Note II to my wife's iPhone 4S. It's not like my SG3 or Note 2's hardware is not capable of the same responsiveness though. How do I know? I flashed MIUI on my SG3 and one of the key features of it was that it ran at 60fps cause it's trying so hard to copy iOS. I got the same or even better touch response as I would on my wife's iPhone. So yes, it is Android's fault.
ultimatebyte
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I guess some ROMs have better input lag due to vsync and pre render frames management, but nothing about the touchscreen that seems to bring 80ms itself.
Revolution HD seems a bit better, didn't measure.
Nice to bring those numbers and this link, thanks a lot.
But you can't compare reaction time and screwing up someone's senses...
Here is how this reaction time test works : you see something, you react by moving your finger => not the same than make a move : see the result, you already decided and started to move, the result is supposed to be in perfect sync with what you're doing.
If someone has 215ms reaction time, if you give him 120 more ms between deciding to move, and see his actual move, and ask him to fastly aim something, or draw something in this situation (like on a Note 2), he will first get some trouble, then notice that something is wrong... For sure on the Note 2, it's not your arm that is late, so not a big deal when you're drawing, but a very big deal when you're moving the whole screen (like the view in a FPS), or even when controling a character in a 2D game. I tried Cordy 2, it's playable, but still very boring, same for GTA Vice City...
So sad there's no MUI for Note 2, so I can't try myself...
Skripka
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There most certainly are ports of MIUI for the note 2. I know there's one for at least the Sprint Note 2
ultimatebyte
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Cool, i'll check that when i got more time, but this week is gonna be rough for me once again. ^^
ultimatebyte
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I just made a video so everyone sees what input lag is, and to have an accurate estimation of how much this is on the Note 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyfkypkNWk&feature=youtu.be
PS : Checked MIUI, found it worse than other ROMs, or at least not better, even with Perserus Kernel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyfkypkNWk&feature=youtu.be
PS : Checked MIUI, found it worse than other ROMs, or at least not better, even with Perserus Kernel.
l3uLLDoZeR
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I've been following this thread since I'm in the market for a note 2. I wanted to believe you but after watching your video and going to the Verizon store you need to get a grip. The note 2 is fast and smooth even loads videos quick, like desktop speed. If you want to see lag I will send you my HTC thunderbolt.
l3uLLDoZeR
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That is great to know, but really if the battery lasts for more than 30 minutes I will be satisfied!
WorldExclusive
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The only lag I don't like is the screen rotation delay.
Sometimes it annoyingly rotates with a slight axis shifts or it takes 2-3 seconds to rotate after the phone has been rotated.
Sometimes I have to shake the phone for the screen to rotate.
Otherwise the phone is perfect.
Sometimes it annoyingly rotates with a slight axis shifts or it takes 2-3 seconds to rotate after the phone has been rotated.
Sometimes I have to shake the phone for the screen to rotate.
Otherwise the phone is perfect.
ultimatebyte
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So you've read the entire thread and still don't know what input lag is ?
Want a rope ?
If that's all you want from a phone, for sure input lag isn't an issue for you...
PS : My Note 2 with Omega ROM takes between 500 and 1000ms to screen rotate, and i never had to shake it to make it work...