(First) new build, disappointing figures, OC possible?

Discussion in 'Overclocking & Cooling' started by amundsen, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    Hello,

    I have recently completed my first mini-ITX build:
    Fractal Design Node 202, Asus Rog Strix Gaming Z370-I, i8700K, CPU cooler Cooltek LP53 with Noctua NF-A9x14 fan, no GPU, Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz 2 x 16 GB, Samsung EVO 970 500GB M.2 SSD. The CPU has been delidded by another guy, I have polished the CPU's lid and have used Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut between the cooler and the CPU. Yes, there's no external GPU because this computer has been built for musical purposes and the hope of lower noise, power consumption and weight in comparison with a similar build with an external GPU. If I can run my programs smoothly with this configuration, I 'll probably put everything into a smaller device to make it easier to move.

    I want to overclock this computer. First, I have tried to see to see how it behaves when pushed to its limits. So, I have just run Prime95 and a Torture/Blend test along with Core Temp, and the temperatures haven't really stabilized after 5 minutes. One core has even reached 100°C (see screen caption).

    Capture d’écran (3).png

    This raises many questions:
    - Is it normal to reach such high temperatures?
    - Should I run the test longer until the temperatures really stabilize or is it too risky for my CPU?
    - Should I disassemble my CPU and my cooler and check the thermal paste spreading?
    - Should I add some case cooling (I have 2 120mm SilentWings 3 fans at disposal) ?

    Any advice?

    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. Fuzzy_3D

    Fuzzy_3D Limp Gawd

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    That's a very small CPU cooler in a small case. Try testing again with the case open and a small house fan blowing at the desktop, see what your temps are then. If they're still bad I'd try a larger heatsink to see if that's the issue, otherwise it's probably a bad delid job.

    I had similar temp issues with my last small form factor build, getting enough air circulation can be a challenge.
     
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  3. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

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    Your 8700K has a TDP of 95w.

    That Cooltek heatsink you're using is rated for a TDP of 100w.

    You have zero thermal headroom to overclock. I'd investigate a better-rated cooler, or if you're feeling particularly daring and have a Dremel, look at installing a 240mm AIO with the radiator in the GPU compartment.
     
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  4. Araxie

    Araxie [H]ardness Supreme

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    try undervolting the CPU to see how it behave regarding power and temps.. at stock it should be no issue depending on how hard will that CPU pushed..

    the good things about intel chips since ivy bridge it's that they can really undervolt and still be able to sustain same stock clocks and even in some scenarios handle some overclock undervolted... (i know for experience with my old 3770K and 6700K). so I think that unless you are planing to change that cooler the best bet would be undervolting.
     
  5. Squat

    Squat n00b

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    With a 16 degree difference between cores, my thought is bad delid, bad cooler mount or both.
     
  6. Warriorprophet

    Warriorprophet [H]ard|Gawd

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    Agreed, you may even want to grab an IHS replacement if you're running without one, with the IHS on.

    As Kyle as stated you can really crank the mounting pressure on your HSF without worrying.

    I presume you may have been too gentle since delidded.

    https://rockitcool.myshopify.com/products/copper-ihs-for-lga-1150-1151
     
  7. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    Hello everyone,

    Thank you for all the answers.

    In between I have tightened a bit the screws attaching the cooler to the CPU but I've been careful not to overtight in order to avoid crackling the motherboard. I have also installed the two 120mm case fans (Silent Wings 3). By the way, my IHS is already a full copper one and I have lapped it from start. I don't know how well/bad my CPU has been delidded. It was done by this guy.

    Now the figures are better. The max temperatures are reached only during short spikes.There is no throttling.

    49196614_316224085901211_647718679265411072_n.png?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru1-1.png

    The next step will be to undervolt the CPU. Can you recommend any tutorial for that purpose?
     
  8. Captindecisive

    Captindecisive Limp Gawd

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    The fact that it's a replacement IHS may also be an issue. If it's not machined properly it may not be making proper contact with the die. The fact that core #5 was getting so hot before makes it seem like that could be a possibility. After tightening down the heatsink a bit more, did you notice core 5 doing the same thing? It looks like from the second graph that it seemed to even out a bit after you tightened the heatsink a bit more. As already stated, with a 100w TDP cooler, the overclock headroom is likely just not there and under-volting at stock speeds is your best option unless you upgrade to a better cooler.

    Personally I like using adaptive voltage settings in the BIOS when under-volting. I'd start with something like 1.050v, run stress tests for at least 5-6 hours (per test) under normal operating circumstances/temperatures; one thing I've really noticed is that you'll want to run not only the high heat AVX tests, but also some balanced tests, I have so very often run into the issue where a CPU will pass AVX stress testing, but not a regular balanced test, especially with the 7th and 8th gen Intel processors. If it passes and doesn't have any issues, use it like you normally would for a day, then move down the voltage from there in small steps until you run into instability or crashes, then move back up in voltage a bit until you find a good spot that is stable. I'll move in .010v increments when I'm doing my initial testing for under-volting, so 1.050v down to 1.040v and so on; when I find the point of instability I'll go back up .015 or .020v to ensure it stays stable if ambient temps get higher and to account for dust or other air flow issues. So if I have a system that is stable at 1.0v, but not stable at 0.990v, I'll bump it to 1.015 or 1.020v to account for outside circumstances. All of these values are just examples, but 1.050v is a good starting point from my experience.

    This is a pretty helpful thread on Prime95 testing also.

    As with anything YMMV and these are just my methods and experience. It's always nice to have a motherboard with an easy cmos reset button for this type of stuff also, but if yours doesn't, just know where the reset jumper is and be ready to use it. Good luck!
     
  9. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Using a small case is just not good for top-level overclocking. Lot of heat build up. You've limited yourself with being able to remove heat due to the small size of the case. While you have fans no doubt, you don't have that many. The biggest hurdle is you can't put in large coolers that you really need to remove the heat at levels that would bring with it a nice overclock.

    Shoot for a 4.5ghz OC on the 8700K ... I'm guessing that's doable. Don't worry about the long term. You should be selling that system near the end of 2020 anyways to capitalize on what value remains. So long term higher temps should not be that big of deal.

    I use the hell out of my CPU and enjoy it.

    I would expect some overclockability still .... just nothing massive.
     
  10. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    Thanks Captindecisive and SixFootDuo for your answers.

    One additional question: I plan to use the ASUS stock BIOS utility to overclock but I wonder if it's possible to control which profile is loaded without restarting the computer (on my older computer, a Clevo laptop, I have the ThrottleStop application which allows to do it).
     
  11. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

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    Asus has software that you can use to manage your overclock, but I would only use it for getting a rough idea of what your chip is capable of, then fine tune the final OC through your BIOS.

    Overclocking software uses some dirty tricks to accomplish it's goal and isn't as stable or reliable as a BIOS overclock.
     
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  12. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    I am not sure I do understand. Isn't the Asus UEFI BIOS utility the only way to access the BIOS on an Asus motherboard?
     
  13. Captindecisive

    Captindecisive Limp Gawd

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    You should be able to access the BIOS by pressing either delete or f2 when you first power on the computer. Just start tapping delete and/or f2 when you power it on, it should get you into the BIOS.
     
  14. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    Indeed, I get to the
    I get to the Asus UEFI BIOS utility with either key.
     
  15. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

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    What I mean is that Asus has software you can run from within Windows (I think it's called AI Suite?) and you can change your overclocking settings without rebooting. It should also allow you to swap profiles on the fly, like you asked for.

    However, I don't know that you would want to do this, honestly. Software-based overclocking for CPUs is finicky compared to BIOS-based overclocking. They both give you similar capabilities, but the way the software actually applies the overclock is not the same and can lead to problems.

    Let me ask you this: why do you want to be able to swap between OC profiles?
     
  16. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    I just want to switch easily from one setup to the other on the fly according to my activities to reduce noise, heat and consumption. For instance, I want to OC for music production, but not when only editing text or browsing for instance.
     
  17. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

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    If you set up your overclock to do so, it will only boost to the higher frequencies when placed under a heavy enough load to need them. Some folks prefer to have their chip hold the maximum frequency on all cores at all times, but that's not the only way to go.
     
  18. entropism

    entropism 2[H]4U

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    Just chiming in here: You're going to be limited no matter what you do, really. The combination of case, cooler and CPU combined just aren't right for what you're trying to accomplish. I mean, the case is a fine case, but I wouldn't overclock with it. The cooler is, to be blunt, not something I would use at all with a modern CPU, and obviously the CPU is a beast, but needs adequate cooling.

    What you've done is the equivalent of putting a Ferrari engine into a 1960s Beetle, and then used a drinking straw for your air intake. Now you're wondering why you can't go 150 MPH.

    Either replace the case/cooler and OC the hell out of it, or keep the 8700K at stock speed and try undervolting it to keep it cool enough for that heatsink to do... something.
     
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  19. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex [H]ard|Gawd

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    Gonna suggest it again just because it's cool and Bitwit managed it in this case: see if you can stick a 240mm AIO in there. With no GPU you have that whole compartment got the radiator and fans, the only slightly tricky part is routing the tubes down there. Bitwit managed it with a little Dremel work.
     
  20. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    I've got better temperatures with a vertical positioning of the case (< 90°in stress test).

    @VanGoghComplex : yes, I've seen this 240mm AIO modding. Anyway, I won't have time to go on with my build during next weeks (big project to finish). Then I'll have a look at undervolting. Also if I am happy with Intel integrated graphics I'll get a more compact case anyway (Streacom DA2 probably) and install a more powerful CPU cooling.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  21. amundsen

    amundsen n00b

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    This Sharkoon QB One case seem very interesting too. It can accomodate a CPU Cooler with a height of 15cm. Nice alternative to cases with much higher prices.
     
  22. Warriorprophet

    Warriorprophet [H]ard|Gawd

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    I've been overclocking my Thuban 1100T with AMD Overdrive since 2008, no issues, can I doubt most software could be any clunkier than that. It's really just preference these days, and how detailed you want to get tweaking tons of settings to get where you want.