EVs outsould fossil fuel powered cars in Norway

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by M76, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    That would be nice. The problem with energy generation is not generation, its storage. There's no way to store excess power and powerplants have to balance generation output with demand on the fly, generators are constantly starting and stopping as load changes. I worked on an extensive smart grid research team 5 years ago and learned a crap ton. Stuff that is mostly useless except in discussions really. But there is much I dont know.

    Power aside, we really need to concern ourselves with the massive destruction to the planet strip mining Li and cobalt.
     
  2. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    My point was if say Pfizer developed a drug in say Europe, Europeans would still get the cheaper version and US citizens would still pay through the nose for the drugs

    Case in point insulin, created in Canada almost a century ago, Canadian price about $30, US price closer to $300. And this is just for the insulin not the fancy auto injector
     
  3. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

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    Yes I agree and its because they expect the US consumer to subsidize it all due to the lack of federal price caps. As long as there are no rules banning external financing and perks for politicians while in office and out, America will remain fucked.
     
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  4. Shadow_Foxx

    Shadow_Foxx [H]Lite

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    This is what I think, the US is not comparable to Norway in this sense, we do not have the infrastructure for electric cars to replace fossil fuel cars anytime in the near future, unfortunately. And, like someone else said, until we close down all the coal plants, then switching to electric isnt really better for the environment anyway.
     
  5. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This is of course, nonsense. You don't have to close down all the coal plants, for EVs to be better.

    If you are genuinely concerned about it, you can compare how EVs compare to gas powered cars in your specific location with a handy map that shows how they compare, by looking at how clean the power is in each region:
    https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner
    2016-map_850_blog-3.jpg


    If you are in a pale blue region it's a no brainer, EVs are better for the environment.
     
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  6. DanNeely

    DanNeely 2[H]4U

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    That's only true in places like Japan that use punitive policies to drive older vehicles off the road. The average age of vehicles in the US is over 11 years old, with the yearly share not starting to fall off until ~13 years old. Combined with the fact that a large fraction of the people driving >15 year old cars couldn't afford to buy new even if they wanted to, it's going to take something like 20 years for the US to go from most cars sold are electric, to there aren't very many gas cars left on the road. And as cars become more reliable that long tail will take even longer to wither away and die; you can see the impact of improvements early in the century in the falloff point shifting 4 years older between 09 and 17 in one o the charts in the article I'm linking.


    https://wolfstreet.com/2018/08/21/a...ks-vehicles-by-household-income-vehicle-type/
     
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  7. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    More fake news.

    So they compared the average electric car (mostly small cars) to the average ICE which includes large cars, mini vans, SUV, etc. :rolleyes:

    How about something more apples to apples, like comparing a Leaf or Bolt to a Prius?
    Be sure include all the global warming gasses created during all the manufacturing processes including the batteries.
     
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  8. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They didn't compare to any ICE car, average or otherwise.

    They created a GHG MPG equivalent to the the amount of EV electricity used in those regions.

    You are then free to use any gas powered car of your choice to see if it really if you can get a better result with even the most efficient gas powered car.

    Which you could driving a Prius in the regions with the dirtiest power, but outside of that, EVs produce less GHG, well to wheels. That is very tiny exception to what is generally a much better result for EVs.

    But sure. If you want to tout driving a Prius in one of the places with the dirtiest power grids, then you have a valid argument. Again for that small exception.
     
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  9. Shadow_Foxx

    Shadow_Foxx [H]Lite

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    Ill admit I was speaking in hyperbole. Youre right EVs are in general better for the environment. I was dreaming of a 'clean' power cycle, wind/solar/hydro etc ==> electricity ==> EVs, rather than coal ==> electricity ==> EVs. Once the EVs are powered by renewable energy sources I will feel more comfortable with people speaking in blanket statements that EVs are completely better than traditional propulsion methods. Mahy people forget a sifnificant proporation of this electricity in the US comes from coal, although at a steadily declining rate. I am significantly biased, I will admit, in that I am all too aware of the the negative ramifications of coal plants, as I am from 'coal country'. Thank you for the graphic, I will do more research next time before making statements on this issue.
     
  10. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Why? Seriously.
    So, oil mining is okay.
    Gas mining is okay.
    Aluminum mining is okay.
    Copper mining is okay.
    Iron mining is okay.
    Gold mining is okay.
    Nickel mining is okay.
    Precious stone mining is okay.
    Coal mining is okay.
    Titanium mining is okay.
    You get the idea...

    But noooo stop the presses, the mining related to electric cars, wind and solar? Holy shit! The worse.

    Just because some mining activities been going on much longer, doesn't mean they were ever nice and awesome... Don't give a shit ( or at least the same shit as all other mining) how bad Li and Cobalt mining is.... As with anything else, it can be made better, and if I we give a pass to other mining activities because they been there longer, then Li and whatever else gets the same pass. Or nobody gets a pass... Let's just not bullshit ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  11. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    Go look at the surface damage of lithiumnstrip mining... then tell me that's ok compared to oil drilling
     
  12. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    I don't have, its okay.
     
  13. Youn

    Youn [H]ardness Supreme

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    lithium_tar_sands_meme.jpg


    meanwhile, in a nearby city:
    k-hole-was-large-enough-to-swallow-up-about-a-dozen-homes-which-fell-330-feet-down-into-the-hole.jpg

    actually, I'mnot sure it's true oil drilling/fracking causes sink holes like this, probably just another half-baked theory
     
  14. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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    All of that is true, but it doesn’t remove the fact that EV’s make far superior automobiles than ICE vehicles.
     
  15. Youn

    Youn [H]ardness Supreme

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    but, but, but... no loud flatulence!!!
     
  16. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    It is nice how you can manipulate fact to sound like a bigger deal then it really is. Norway is a very small country that sells around 5000 cars a month. With the credits for EV cars and the heavy tax on ice vehicles it is no surprise. You are pretty much forced into buying what the government wants you to buy. That said I am surprised it isn't even higher. The wealthy are the only ones able to afford ice cars. Hell the avavera citizens can't afford any type of vehicle there cause of the general insanely high tax rate.
     
  17. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver Beat It To Deformation

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    IMO, it's all okay. But let's not pretend that just because we export our pollution and slave labor to China for solar panels/batteries doesn't mean that the pollution doesn't exist.
     
  18. RPGWiZaRD

    RPGWiZaRD Gawd

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    What's the case on biogas (renewable, consists of methane + biomass) & natural gas use in cars in other countries? In Finland that's being touted as a practical not very expensive option in near future as a complimentary to EVs, it's already being used but its widspreadth needs to be expanded as in many places there's no such refill option to be found. It's been said during the car's lifetime the harmful green house gases are reduced by about 85% using biogas. It costs around 1500€ (probably $1500 US due our high taxes n stuff) to make the conversion for the car and as a running cost quite a bit lower than fossil fuel (biogas vs natural gas milage is roughly similar comparison of gas vs diesel, so nothing of a major difference here at least). I would probably do the conversion myself if it was more widespread in my area.

    Any other countries that have such in use or is it more a Finnish option only as I see mostly talk about EVs vs ICE?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  19. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver Beat It To Deformation

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    Natural gas is the most logical step between our current power requirements and more nuclear/renewables for actual power generation. Using it in cars, directly, will have a tough time gaining traction as you have to market it to an end consumer, and the end consumer that is environmentally motivated is sold on EVs being the only way forward. NG in heavy trucks and public transport makes sense.
     
  20. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    Wouldn't be the first time, whale oil was used as a fuel source in the 19th century until an alternative came about and eventually ceased when whaling was banned. Hunting of certain animals was banned as well when alternatives came about, cotton isn't as warming as seal fur or whatever but the government forced you to stop.

    Now sure you can still get certain luxuries but they will cost you more, you need to understand that we might very well be at one of those moments in time when something is trying to be phased out, and much like other times many people might not like it because a convenience they have lived with their whole lives is being taken away.
     
  21. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Fine with me.
    I don't pretend nothing, but i am also not going to pretend that we been living in balance with nature.. you know.. right up until now.. its those electric cars and solar panels.. that's the problem, nothing else till now /s
     
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  22. Draax

    Draax [H]ardness Supreme

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    [​IMG]
    %20facility%20with%20rising%20plumes%20of%20steam%20and%20smoke.%20Alberta%2C%20CA%20140407-0519.jpg
    This is also a photo of the Alberta oilsands. Alex MacLean has an entire photo series on the oilsands ... and none of his pictures look like the one you posted.
     
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  23. Zareek

    Zareek Limp Gawd

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    I'm not an electric car owner because the crappy cold winters and absurd electrical rates where I live. That being said all this hoopla about energy usage is plain silly. The math proves it, even crappy electric cars are more energy efficient as compared to ICE. The most efficient ICE engines are less than half the efficiency of all electric cars. Yes, hybrids bridge the gap slightly but if you compare energy in versus energy out, an electric car is the way to go. You can argue about the environmental impact until you are blue in the face but it all comes down to how you use said energy. Gasoline or Diesel burned in a small engine is mostly wasted energy.
     
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  24. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    This is the single biggest reason that EVs won't gain widespread adoption in large countries like the US, range and the inconvenience of charging.

    Even the longest range EV vehicle is ~300 miles under perfect conditions, and for the road warriors like myself (I drive 230 miles a day, 1100+ miles a week), and that isn't enough. It gives basically zero room for safety margin if let's say it gets cold all of a sudden (30-40 degree temperature swings in several hours aren't uncommon here) and the battery dies, or if I had to drive somewhere else, I'd be SOL. I can't be down 8-12 hours while I wait for a car to charge up.

    Unless they come up with a revolutionary new battery technology that can double or triple the range of an EV to match what a gas powered vehicle can do, I don't see them being viable here. But even so, the long charging times would still be a deal breaker.

    Hydrogen fuel cells or biofuel are far more viable options, you get the energy density closer to that of octane/diesel without the extreme weight penalty. An an average small truck fuel tank is 18 gallons and weighs about 105 lb when full, compared to the 85 kWh Tesla battery which weighs 1200 lb. That 18 gallons of fuel has an energy potential of around 600 kWh.
     
  25. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    Good thing I just bought a Charger Hellcat. It requires an entire nation's daily oil production to run, but i've got enough horsepower to make me a time traveler so i'm good.
     
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  26. whateverer

    whateverer Gawd

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    The problem with Hydrogen is, you can't get anywhere near the power density of good old gasoline unless you heavily compress the stuff, and that is expensive. So get used to driving down the street to get HALF A TANK OF reasonably-priced H2 from you current favorite local station , and then you have to drive a ;lot longer (think Supercharger distances) to get a a dedicated H2 station that will actually fill up your entire tank to it's highest pressure (at a significant price premium). It takes about twice the time to fill up your tank to full pressure.

    The Toyota Mirai has a 10,000 psi tank, and gets 300 miles of range fully-compressed. That drops to half if you go down the street (whenever your local gas station gets an H2 pump).

    http://mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html

    This is ignoring the other issues, like the danger of having a 10,000 psi tank in an accident.. They're making serious progress on making the Fuel Cells cheaper, but they're making better progress on Liion battery range, now that they are being mass-produced.

    The Model 3 Long Range has 325 miles range, and is $15,000 less expensive to purchase than the Mirai. And it will be cheaper to run, because electricity is less than half the cost of hydrogen. And you can be left with the same range anxieties as pure electric if you aren't anywhere near a high-pressure pump.

    Until they mass-produce Fuel Cells, all of the "promised improvements" are just empty promises. And they will never get around the dangers of so much compressed fuel, nor the extra costs of producing hydrogen from pure electric (producing H2 from Natural Gas Reforming is way cheaper than electrolysis, and the only affordable way to make the stuff.).

    Biofuel is only viable in countries like Brazil, where you have tons of arable land and tons of sun. And even then they can only bump their gas up to 25% Ethanol. We're struggling to add 10% to ours. You can never fully replace Gasoline consumption in a a country that has fully dedicated itself to Biofuel, not without more expensive food, and more expensive fuel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  27. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Widespread adoption, doesn't mean they have to work for the tiny minority of people with extreme range demands. They just have to work for the average person.

    The average daily mileage is something like 40 miles, and most of the new mainstream EVs are 200mile+ range. Meaning it will work for most people even at the coldest temperatures.
     
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  28. Seelenlos

    Seelenlos [H]ard|Gawd

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    All those things change ever year. There are over 20k charging stations across the United States. Small towns in the middle of nowhere have them. The fast chargers are becoming more common. Most people do not drive several hundred miles every day. You can drive coast to coast in an EV. Sure you currently don't have the same level of freedom to drive anywhere you want as an ICE vehicle. But planning out a route isn't a hard thing to do. I think the Teslas will even help you do it.

    Again these things have improved practically every year. As the tech improves more people will buy it. It may not happen this year but unless something drastic happens to knock EVs out they will be expanding their market share. I feel like some of you are in denial.
     
  29. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    And when it's really cold and you are using the heater, that 200 mile range drops to 120 miles. Hopefully you have a full charge when you leave home and don't get stuck in a long traffic jam requiring you to run the heater for a couple hours.

    Most people don't buy a car for just their commute.
    They need a car/SUV/Truck that can handle the other 10% of their needs, such as hauling the kids to soccer, taking the family on vacation, hauling supplies home from the hardware store, etc.

    Buying and insuring a 2nd car for the other 10% of their needs will cost way more that they might save with an EV.

    Then there's the issue that a majority of people have no place to plug in an EV to charge at home, as they live in apartments or condos without a garage.
    Even some people who live in homes park in the street and they can't drag an extension cord across the lawn and sidewalk.

    Only way I would consider buying an electric car, is if I was retired and we just needed a car for short drives to the store, etc.
    I'd still want a larger ICE/Hybrid for longer trips.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  30. whateverer

    whateverer Gawd

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    He's just saying that the cars are useful for a large portion of the population TODAY, even f that portion doesn't include YOU.

    There's still a lot of tweaks that can be done to battery chemistry to improve range, so today's cars are not what will be available in ten years.

    I'd expect that within twenty more years, affordable EVs will have enough range for 90% of the population. IT will take much moire than a single decade to make the full transition from ICE to battery, so we've got some time for things to improve (and time for the electrical grid to be upgraded, although with peak home charging at night this should be fine)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  31. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The better EVs get, the more bizarre the arguments against them. How often do you think people get stuck in freezing weather multi-hour traffic jams? I bet less than once/lifetime for most people.

    Most US households already have 2 or more cars. You could simply replace one of them with an EV in most households and there would be no need to buy/insure another car.

    Last time I checked the majority of Americans still live in standalone houses. Single detached houses are the majority, not apartments/condos.

    This must have been what it was like when the transitions from horses to cars was happening about a century ago. Some people complaining about need to find fuel stations for cars when horses could just graze anywhere, or complaining that cars couldn't drive you home when you got drunks, etc... ;)

    There are always some people that react negatively to change.
     
  32. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    Uh, at least tens of thousands of people every day of quite a few months in Chicago stuck on the Eisenhower, just as an example.

    EV's are great in certain places, but if the technology doesn't change much they are terrible choices for your average American.

    I agree in twenty years that story will be different, but we are no where near that point.
     
  33. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    Welcome to Colorado. Or Wisconsin, Chicago, Washington DC, New York, or <insert pretty much every major city in the north / northeast here>. Happens nearly every day of the week, it's not some rare event. Do you even drive or watch the news?

    Multi-hour traffic jams are even an every day occurrence here in the south where we rarely have freezing weather. DFW, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, etc.

    Laws are already being passed against hands free automated driving vehicles, and they've been banned in a number of municipalities already due to fatal accidents which are the fault of the car and software driving the car.

    I certainly hope automated vehicles are never allowed into widespread use because the few cases that have been tried against them for wrongful death have had outcomes that largely absolve the manufacturer of responsibility.

    The few scientific studies on roads with purely automated driving has shown that traffic problems generally get worse rather than better.
     
  34. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Multi-hour traffic jams every day for months? Could you point to the news story?

    In 30 years of driving, I think I was once held up for 30 minutes and that was hell...

    This guy slept in his Model 3 overnight at -17C.


    So it should be able to handle your sad US traffic jams.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  35. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    You live in Canada dude. Sorry, but while I appreciate your opinion, you really seem to be entirely ignorant to how traffic is around major cities like Chicago, Seattle, New York, etc.

    I sit in 45 minutes of traffic, yes traffic not just my total drive, every single day going to work.

    So i'm glad you've barely ever had to deal with it, but this just shows how inane your opinion is on the matter. You really have no fucking idea.

    The entire population of all of Canada is 37 million.

    The population of just Cook County is 5.2 million, and the traffic going through Chicago on any given day is far more than just Cook County (Chicago). It has multiple major interstates running north/south and east/west.

    I won't even touch on how bad traffic is in some other major cities, but you really just have no perspective here. It's hilarious that you want me to point to a news story. This is a daily fact of life for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Americans. It's not news.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  36. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    Out of curiosity has any organization (person) actually done testing on how much battery power is really used on climate control? Or are these arguments largely hyperbole?

    I'm not denying climate control uses energy which reduces range, or that people can be stuck in traffic for hours, however a quick look at the Model 3 (easiest example of numbers I could find) the interior heater uses about 5kW, and the smallest battery size is 50kWh which translates to a 220 mile range. Now just running some numbers if you had a 110 mile drive to work you could still be stuck in traffic for 5 hours and get to work "on fumes", at least as a theoretical. Sure real world would change that some what but seems like a couple hours in traffic during extreme conditions is still very doable, sure if you're stuck in one of those horrible blizzards that you see on TV where cars are stuck for an entire day on the freeway your car would die, but I think it is fair to firmly put that into the truly "rare" category, and even with a gasoline powered car if you were lazy and didn't have a full tank even idling you'd end up running out of gas.
     
  37. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    I don't think it's a big deal, it's still just the range issue for most regardless of climate control.

    My larger issue with EV's currently is the battery tech behind it. I'm all for saving the environment, but mining various metals/minerals out of the earth that are used for the batteries isn't going to be much better to just burning petrol.

    Then you look at the fact that the vast majority of oil usage in general is for making plastics, industry, or for transportation usage for giant cargo tankers - Cars really aren't even using that much oil. The whole EV argument for 'the environment' just doesn't add up to me when it comes to personal vehicles.

    Unless the battery tech changes, all we're really doing here is shifting from one type of pollution to another.

    From a practical standpoint, ICE for personal vehicles probably makes more sense if the vast majority of other oil usage would be cut back and replaced with something else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  38. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    See the video I linked above. That guy slept in his car in -17 temps for 8 hours. His average draw was 2.43 KW, which considering how he calculated it, would also include batter capacity lost to the cold in the calculation.

    Also he started running the cabin heater at a a warm 21C (70F), and then later turned it up to 26C(79F) about half way through because his feet were cold in the trunk.

    Realistically, stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam, you wouldn't have your feet in the trunk, so there would be no need to crank that heat anywhere near that high. Worse case you probably wouldn't even use 2KW average. So 2 hour frigid traffic jam at less than 4KW is less than a 10% impact on range. Negligible.

    Beyond that, EV users know that seat heater have more efficiency, they are typically a fraction of the power since they transfer the heat directly, you could probably cut the above in half again by lowering the cabin temp and using seat heaters.

    Again, it's a lot of seeking edge cases to whine about.

    Think back to the source here. It's more than half the new cars in Norway being EVs. Norway is friggen cold. EVs can handle cold.
     
  39. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's never happened to me because I live in Southern California, but it's not unusual in places where that can get several feet of snow in a single day.


    We have 2 cars, a high mileage Hybrid for commuting and long trips, and a Minivan for hauling stuff or people.
    Current electric cars don't fit with either of these uses.
    The commute would work with electric, but then we would be stuck using the older low mpg Minivan for long trips.


    Funny how you quote data from 2000, and ignore the trends in the report.

    In 2000, 60% live detached homes. Just because it's a detached home doesn't mean they have a garage or proper electrical service/access to charge a car.

    Meanwhile, the number of people living in large apartment building has shown significant growth over the past 40 years. Not a trend that will be helpful to charging cars.


    And for many people during that time the horse was still the better choice until cheaper cars were available and the infrastructure was in place.
    Just like today, where most the buyers of electric cars are rich or upper middle class, the masses will stick to the older/cheaper solution.

    I'm not arguing that electric cars will never become viable, just that for most people they are too expensive and too limiting at the current time.

    Maybe in 10 years when I'm hopefully retired,
    I'll have a high mileage hybrid SUV for hauling stuff & long trips, and a cheap electric car for short trips to the store and senior center. :p
     
  40. Lebowski

    Lebowski 2[H]4U

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    Of course EVs will sell well . We have a subsidizes in Norway and I was talking to a guy that works there. To get Dodge Durango SRT after taxes and i import duties costs $200,000 US dollars. And they don't let you have the back seats. If you want to keep those it's something like another $40,000 US.