EVs outsould fossil fuel powered cars in Norway

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by M76, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    For the first time in history electric cars made up 58.4% of new cars sold in Norway in March.

    “Norway shows the whole world that the electric car can replace cars powered by gasoline and diesel and be an important contribution in the fight to reduce C02 emissions,” - Christina Bu, the Norwegian Electric Vehicle Association’s general secretary.

    Norway’s Parliament has voted to require that all new cars sold in the Scandinavian country be electric by 2025.
    Norway waived hefty vehicle import duties and registration and sales taxes for buyers of electric cars to boost sales. Owners don’t pay road tolls and use bus lanes in congested city centers.



    EVs are good, if the infrastructure is there, and it is certainly there in Norway where on average 95% of the power production comes from hydroelectric plants. But in countries still relying on coal or other non-green electricity sources, EVs won't solve emissions problems. But it might help to keep city centers clean.
     
  2. What do you know, you punish ICE cars with import duties, extra taxes etc etc, and heavily subsidize EV's and then mandate all new cars be EV by 2025, and they actually sell, what a shock. :rolleyes:

    It mostly however had to do with large delivery (finally) of lots of Tesla's ordered over a large time span, as it's a small country and it doesn't take many car orders to offset this statistic. You also have to consider Norway is fairly oil rich, personal tax rates are sky high, about 40%, with historical average since 1995 of almost 42%. And gas taxes are very high resulting in gas of over $7 a gallon.

    No one likes pointing out the dirty details though....
     
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  3. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Personal tax rate is similar all over europe, gas prices too, I don't see how that is relevant to EVs.
     
  4. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    WE DID IT!

    i'd love an EV but electricity here is prohibitively expensive.
     
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  5. The distinction is that not all of Europe is oil producing, Norway is second largest in Europe for oil production, first being Russia, where gas is $2.50 a gallon. Tax rates have to do with the general subsidy mentally of which EV's are a part of, the link above even shows this. How you don't understand that forced prices on gas and large subsidy given to EV's along with law mandating 100% EV by 2025 doesn't have anything to do with EV's well....I can't help you.

    One of my race buddies was one of the first with the P90D I knew here in Houston, was a really fun car to play with, but he also lives and almost never goes out of the metro area, so perfect fit for him. A bit more time and some more rage and they will start becoming a possible option for me as a second (3rd?) car, but I travel far to much for one to be used as a main car in their current state. But there are whole swaths of people who an EV is a great fit for.
     
  6. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Gas tax will be replaced with a Travel Tax soon. You'll go in periodically and pay to have your odometer read and pay a tax on miles since your last reading plus a charge for the pleasure. Or they'll start metering Car chargers. Either way, Taxes dodged with EVs is only a temporary phenomena.
     
  7. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    I only have to go like 10 miles if you need to drive somewhere in Norway.

    Oh, I'm sorry, I meant 16 kilometres.
     
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  8. DanNeely

    DanNeely 2[H]4U

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    With a few hundred miles/charge for Tesla's the road trip challenge isn't so much range per se, but that a charge takes a lot longer than pumping a tank of gas. OTOH the next generation chargers should be able to do an ~15 min charge which is finally getting reasonably close.
     
  9. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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  10. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    From what I can tell, people drive the similar distances when they do drive as in the US, they just drive less often.
     
  11. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yea they sold a whopping 5000 cars last month.

    USA - 1,627,481 ... in december
     
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  12. Krazy925

    Krazy925 2[H]4U

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    That’s the number I was hoping would be posted in the thread.

    Thank you.
     
  13. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    So small country (i.e. short drives), cheap electricity, heavy subsidies for electric cars, high gas taxes and high import duties on gas cars.
    If I could buy an electric car for half the cost of an ICE, and the cost per mile was 1/4 the cost of driving an ICE, then I'd be a fool not to get an electric car, even with the limitations.

    However, even with the subsidies here in California, the costs are at best a wash when compared to a hybrid.
    Not worth the limitations of an electric car (smaller car, limited range, long charging times, no spare tire, etc.) for the small amount I might save.
     
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  14. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I said high taxes have nothing to do with EVs. But sure read whatever else into it. If they didn't have 50% EV sales taxes would be the same, as they are everywhere over Europe.
    Besides there is a huge difference between a subsidy and a tax break. They are not interchangeable.

    People get hung up on 40% tax, and cry wolf but I bet 99% of the people in Norway wouldn't want to live in the US where there is relatively low income tax, but no universal health care, and 20% of the population living under the poverty line for example in California.
     
  15. TheOne&OnlyZeke

    TheOne&OnlyZeke 100% Irish

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    I'd love an Electric car
    I hate the look of most of them, and the ones I like are too fucking expensive
    So....Diesel for now.
     
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  16. IcePickFreak

    IcePickFreak [H]ard|Gawd

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    I donut understan outsould. ;)
     
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  17. Hatriot

    Hatriot Limp Gawd

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    Leave it to a euroservant to conflate fake poverty definition with tax rates. The working population funded health care is not sustainable, and only has been because anglo majority socialist utopias like Norway burden countries like the USA for their real defense. It won't last. See Denmark.
     
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  18. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I just pointed out that high taxes don't mean people are worse off. And the poverty line isn't defined by me. I'm sorry that it makes you angry, but feelings still don't matter. I guess everyone needs a scapegoat, I'll certainly give you points for originality. "It's bad in the US, because of Norway" is certainly a new one. What about Denmark, last I checked it was still there.
     
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  19. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

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    Universal healthcare would never work in the US because we subsidize the cost of medicine for most of the world, especially 3rd world countries who pay pennies on the dollar for medications created in the US. Until this practice of fleecing US consumers is done away with along with other sweeping changes in healthcare, it will just remain a fantasy. Besides we have a shortage of primary care physicians in the US and as good of a job as some NP and PA do, they're no substitute for an MD/DO.

    765694b5db41a70f13e031687634171a.png

    As for our poverty rates, we have a gigantic population compared to tiny countries like yours with much higher rates of immigration from Mexico and other places so of course we're going to see higher crime rates, poverty and everything else in between. I don't blame your little countries for the US's problems, those are of our making entirely because a huge chunk of our population are morons. They keep electing politicians to office who are controlled by special interest groups that have no intention of making life better for the general population, just the top 1% here. Both Democrats and Republicans are responsible for this although Republicans are a lot more upfront about serving the rich while Democrats keep their agenda hidden behind a false mask of social justice.

    As for the original topic, EVs will take a long time to replace gas cars here because we don't have the infrastructure to support EVs and especially in California, our power grid couldn't handle it. We used to have rolling brown outs less than a decade ago so there's no way we could handle the burden of millions of cars on the grid. There's also the fact that EV range is limited while charging stations are sparse. It will take at least 2 decades for the US to reach even 50% electric.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  20. Droc

    Droc 2[H]4U

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    Don't they charge a 100% levy on cars anyways?
    So anything you buy, they pay 2x the sticker price. a $50k volvo becomes $100k

    And if they waive the levy, a $50k car costs $50k.
     
  21. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I think you mean, because you let sick people subsidize wealthy Pharma companies and their shareholders. People like Martin Shkreli.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry...rug-price-the-same_n_5aa3117fe4b07047bec694cb
    or the Sackler family:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/30/the-family-that-built-an-empire-of-pain

    You mean you used to have brown/black outs, when California deregulated, and Enron took over and created brown outs to profit from them.
    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/05/enro-m10.html
     
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  22. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I have to wonder if you are anyone who upvoted read your link, because it really doesn't line up with your claims.

    Asses handed to them? Rates are currently less than 6 cents/KWh. They have gone up a lot, but they were silly cheap before, now they are merely just cheap.
    It also has ZERO to do with EVs, it has everything to do with lack of rain:
     
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  23. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Until parts for EV's are made by non fossil fuel industrial manufacturing its a moot point.
     
  24. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    One big problem with widespread adoption of ev is the carbon rampup at the power plants to adapt to hundred kilowatt batteries constantly taxing the grid along with the utterly massive nuclear sized craters left by lithium strip mining.

    We sincerely need to figure out how to mine asteroids or find another substance based on carbon etc... to create sources of power storage.
     
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  25. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Is Norway the country with a lot of hydroelectric? They might have cheap electricity which might be the driving force for EV's.
     
  26. THRESHIN

    THRESHIN 2[H]4U

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    As pointed out, EVs are perfect for a small country with the infrastructure and not far to go. Much more difficult in NA.

    I recently read an article where an automotive journalist was asked by GM to review their electric car in Canada. So, he took it on a road trip through Quebec in the dead of winter. Claimed range was around 450km I think. In the cold that dropped to about 160km. And remember, these are fresh batteries! I can't even get to work and back on that. Alto he had no issues finding charging stations on the road, being able to use them was another matter. Not enough to go around so there was always a lineup. Once he was charging, he had people continually pestering him to use it.

    But good for Norway. I'm pleased that they are able to pull this off. The rest of the world will be more difficult. Its kinda like Brazil which fuels their cars almost entirely on ethanol. It works for them because they grow a lot of sugar cane. The rest of the world, not so much.
     
  27. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    You have to reliase us ppl seldom think much longer than the amount of money in the wallet.
     
  28. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    That doenst fit my argument so I'm skipping that in the evidence i am providing.
    as iwent over in the serius sam am 4 threade. ppl like to argue and have an opioning.
    reading to aquire knowledge takes to much time

    You can argue and show 4 opinions in the time it take to read about one topic. so its "ineffective" for the moderne person
     
  29. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It doesn't have to be verified or true, it's just confirmation bias.
     
  30. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Since modern care only lasts about 6 years thats not really a concern to anyone buying one. By the time the tax catches up they will be considering the next purchase and act accordingly.
     
  31. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The thing I dont understand about this argument is that most people are going to charge cars overnight when electric usage should be low anyway.
     
  32. NoOther

    NoOther [H]ardness Supreme

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    They already have a road tax. The road tax is waived for EV vehicles... They also have Toll roads, high registration fees based on size/power/MPG, and of course the gas tax. They pretty much tax almost every aspect of using cars.
     
  33. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    Do you gas your car during daytime?

    When tens of millions are in ev cars you can count on it.
     
  34. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    But California is under the control of the far left more than just about any other state, and the left has been able to implement much of what they have dreamed about.

    Yet, all it has done is raise the cost of living for the middle class and created a much large divide between the rich and the poor.
    That 20% living poverty will continue to grow, just like the number of homeless under the current California policies.
    And yes, I live here in California, and the government is completely corrupt and incompetent, just like anyone should expect with one party rule.
    I'm nearing retirement age, and while I have enough for a comfortable retirement here in Southern California, if it gets much worse I will likely leave the state and have a really nice retirement somewhere else with a lower cost of living.


    Meanwhile, over the past 20 years, Norway and other Scandinavian countries have become more capitalistic, in order to have the money to support their social safety net.
     
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  35. NoOther

    NoOther [H]ardness Supreme

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    Having known many Scandinavians living in the US and abroad, it has nothing to do with poverty or health care, both of which hardly affect them here. In fact, the latter is the reason some have moved to the US, because our catastrophe care is still one of the best in the world. Generally their perspective has been the US is too crowded, too rude, and too crazy. Scandinavian countries have very small homogeneous populations which makes it far easier for them to implement a decent social democracy. I mean, Norway barely has more in total population than exists just in Los Angeles... But make no mistake, they aren't typically happy paying a ton of taxes, nobody likes that. Also, there are very few incentives in Norway to actually strive to succeed. The country is based primarily on status quo and mediocrity. Also note that many of these countries have pretty straight forward transparent tax systems, something the US definitely does not have.

    Anyway, I could go on for a long time on why the continued comparisons of the US to Scandinavian countries is a terrible one, but it would take up too much time and space for this. The simple truth is the systems they use would not work here, at least not on a federal level.
     
  36. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I gas my car during the day because I dont have a gas pump in my house so I fill it up when I am out. If I had an electric vehicle I would charge at night if I had an incentive
     
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  37. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes but when millions and millions are driving electric... not everyone has a high IQ just like all the cars you see out of gas waiting on help on the side of the highway or people that forget to plug up.

    It's not about price it's about load on the already overtaxed grid. And many charging stations are regularly used during the day time. Look at all the waiting lines in California for super chargers. Some people have to wait quite a while to use them. Imagine if 50 million motorists were suddenly driving electrics. Good God we need to install and prepare for that kind of rush on energy.
     
  38. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    Well first off saying a multinational corporation created something "in the US" is kind of meaningless, other than the fact they secure patents here and charge us up the ass to pay for the R&D and let's not forget their profit margins are quite substantial before you say this is necessary for R&D.

    But yeah I agree until hospitals stop charging arbitrary amounts for procedures that can differ greatly by city or if you have insurance they can over charge then universal health care is simply a way to funnel money into hospital pockets
     
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  39. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    And yet you have power companies complaining about solar power because it makes too much power during the wrong times. Bottom line is if there was a large number of EVs on the road then it is the responsibility of the power companies to adapt to deal with a change of society not the consumer. After all, do you think they did nothing in the 50s when modern electrical conveniences became common place in the house? No they had too adjust for the changing demand. And i say this as one who had to update electrical on a turn of the century home that had one 15 amp fuse for all the lights in the home, and one fuse for ALL the plugs, so yeah the was a huge change in the electrical consumption of the house.

    And yes if 50 million electric cars were on the road with the same number of super chargers as today it would be tragic. Or perhaps a future where ever parking spot in a parking lot had access to a charger, maybe not super ones but enough that you could charge your car somewhat while shopping, dining, etc.
     
  40. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

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    The pharmaceuticals are researched and developed in the US, I don't get what your point was. The reason US consumers are charged so much is because of the lack of central planning and price caps by the US govt at the federal level. If that was the case, you would see medication costs drop to what Canada and other countries pay. However, lobby groups tell our politicians that if the US consumers aren't footing the bill, it will discourage them from developing new drugs due to lack of profit which is of course not entirely true--their shareholders probably wouldn't be pleased without the huge margins they're used to but they'd definitely still turn a profit.