Everything is gone again?

kirbyrj

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I don't think that's the point. The point is that a purportedly cheap card (offered for sale at a considerably lower price, not the BS EBay Shenanigans Nvidia has forced on us) gets roughly the same performance as the preceding gen's best.

Sure, if you have a Ti, don't waste money grabbing a 3070 to replace it (unless you want some of its other features). But for folks who skipped last gen, going 3070 (snark) is a better proposition than getting a Ti.

Exactly, plus you also get a lower power draw.
 

gsilver

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Oct 12, 2010
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The 3070 looks to be way easier to get than the 3080. I ordered just the first one that I could find last night, then just stumbled on one in the style that I wanted this morning.
 

noko

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But downgrading from 1080 Ti 11GB to 8GB memory isn't a good proposition
Going from 11gb to 10gb isn't either. A 10gb card will basically be limited to next gen console graphics, if games are using 10gb plus for the next gen consoles one is not going to improve the graphics with a 10gb card in general. Nvidia makes sure there is obsolescence built in. 12gb would be better if one upgrades generation to generation but still that to me would be the low side. 16gb is probably slightly overkill but one will not have to worry about games running out of vram probably for 3-5 years.
 

kirbyrj

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But downgrading from 1080 Ti 11GB to 8GB memory isn't a good proposition

Sure it is. You're getting a significantly faster GPU compared to a 1080Ti.

The 2080Ti is slightly different, but I don't think I'd go out and buy a used 2080Ti unless it was significantly cheaper than a 3070 (like $450 or less). Otherwise, the newer architecture and lower power draw would probably win out over the slightly extra memory in most cases.
 

kirbyrj

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Going from 11gb to 10gb isn't either. A 10gb card will basically be limited to next gen console graphics, if games are using 10gb plus for the next gen consoles one is not going to improve the graphics with a 10gb card in general. Nvidia makes sure there is obsolescence built in. 12gb would be better if one upgrades generation to generation but still that to me would be the low side. 16gb is probably slightly overkill but one will not have to worry about games running out of vram probably for 3-5 years.

Next gen console graphics will be with us long after people upgrade their 3080s though.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But I don't go crazy with texture packs, etc. Plus, I'm only at 1440p.
 

Kalessian

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May 31, 2010
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Anyone know what the supply constraint is? Is it just huge demand, or is samsung having trouble with yields or has too little fab capacity? something else?
 

DarkSideA8

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Apr 13, 2005
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Going from 11gb to 10gb isn't either. A 10gb card will basically be limited to next gen console graphics, if games are using 10gb plus for the next gen consoles one is not going to improve the graphics with a 10gb card in general. Nvidia makes sure there is obsolescence built in. 12gb would be better if one upgrades generation to generation but still that to me would be the low side. 16gb is probably slightly overkill but one will not have to worry about games running out of vram probably for 3-5 years.
I hate to tell you this, but the days of 'PC games are moah bettah' is over. Games are made to sell tens (if not hundreds) of millions of copies, and the only way to do that is to design for Consoles. They get ported over, later, to PC just to eek out whatever remaining profit they can from a title (c.f. RDR2, et.al.).

Where we PC gamers can rejoice - at least for the next little while - is that MS and Sony have created consoles that are pretty durn good, and PC-like. That (esp. for XBone titles) will make porting over to PC a bit easier, and maybe faster. Further, games like 'Fartnite', by being multi-platform and profitable have actually increased the likelihood of what would be Console-exclusives being made PC Ready during development - even if we get a game that looks like it could be played on a phone / ipad... we'll still have access.
 

Epos7

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Anyone know what the supply constraint is? Is it just huge demand, or is samsung having trouble with yields or has too little fab capacity? something else?
Seems likely to be a combination of factors. Demand is sky high. Even back in April/May it was hard to find 20XX series cards.
 

lopoetve

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Seems likely to be a combination of factors. Demand is sky high. Even back in April/May it was hard to find 20XX series cards.
Part of that was the rush to have something to do at home - people upgrading/buying new systems for the beginning of the pandemic. Just like when we couldn't find CPUs or motherboards for a long time (hell, you still can't get an x570 tomahawk without scalping or killing someone). AMD x570 boards were impossible to find, the 10980XE was unobtanium, etc. Part of the reason I went with ThreadRipper was it was easy to get whatever parts you want - $700 motherboards don't sell fast, nor do $1400 CPUs.
 

snaggletooth

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Said yesterday it was impossible to buy a 3000 series nVidia card and was proven wrong this morning.
I’m a trainer for workers about to retube and replace feeder pipes at a CANDU nuclear reactor here in Canada and I’m on a 4/10 schedule.... so I woke up this morning on my day off and noticed there was an (read:eek:ne) EVGA FTW 3090 available at my closest Canada Computers. I’ve been trying to buy since the launch, any 3000 series. Drove down an hour early and was the first in line. 5 lined up behind me, trying to be sly and not admit they were there for the same thing.
Long story long, I snagged a 3090 this morning, finally. Two mortgage payments worth of gaming fun.
Karma for anyone who hasn’t got theirs; when I pulled the window off my Fractal Define R6 to remove my 2070 Super, it slipped its guide in the front before I could catch it and shattered on impact with my desk. Fun mess to clean up before clearing 14500 in Port Royal.

edit - Fractal is awesome and they’re sending me a warranty replacement free of charge.
 

Kalessian

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Messages
45
Seems likely to be a combination of factors. Demand is sky high. Even back in April/May it was hard to find 20XX series cards.
20XX series is TSMC and 30XX is Samsung so either both fabs are having capacity problems or the demand is very high (or all above).
 
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gawkgawk

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I hate to tell you this, but the days of 'PC games are moah bettah' is over. Games are made to sell tens (if not hundreds) of millions of copies, and the only way to do that is to design for Consoles. They get ported over, later, to PC just to eek out whatever remaining profit they can from a title (c.f. RDR2, et.al.).

Where we PC gamers can rejoice - at least for the next little while - is that MS and Sony have created consoles that are pretty durn good, and PC-like. That (esp. for XBone titles) will make porting over to PC a bit easier, and maybe faster. Further, games like 'Fartnite', by being multi-platform and profitable have actually increased the likelihood of what would be Console-exclusives being made PC Ready during development - even if we get a game that looks like it could be played on a phone / ipad... we'll still have access.
"porting over" isn't really an issue since everything has moved over to x86 last gen and this gen. You don't have to emulate hardware anymore.
 

Ebernanut

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I hate to tell you this, but the days of 'PC games are moah bettah' is over. Games are made to sell tens (if not hundreds) of millions of copies, and the only way to do that is to design for Consoles. They get ported over, later, to PC just to eek out whatever remaining profit they can from a title (c.f. RDR2, et.al.).

Where we PC gamers can rejoice - at least for the next little while - is that MS and Sony have created consoles that are pretty durn good, and PC-like. That (esp. for XBone titles) will make porting over to PC a bit easier, and maybe faster. Further, games like 'Fartnite', by being multi-platform and profitable have actually increased the likelihood of what would be Console-exclusives being made PC Ready during development - even if we get a game that looks like it could be played on a phone / ipad... we'll still have access.
PC games have become more popular and profitable and developers have been paying more attention to their PC versions than they have in over a decade, we're even seeing many historically console exclusive titles make their way to PC recently. More importantly even if they didn't offer extra graphical options for PC which they do the console experience also includes lower resolution and/or framerates than most here would find acceptable.

This generation of consoles looks to be a nice step forward and they may have a few tricks up their sleeves but in reality they have the overall power of a budget gaming PC(at an admittedly good price). The optimizations that they're able to target the specific hardware with does help some but I think we're reaching the point where all the different consoles out right now are going to start diluting that attention.
 

chameleoneel

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Sort of off topic but how come a brand new PS5 PlayStation 5 you can get a Best Buy for $399, which includes the AMD graphics chip inside of it of course plus all the other stuff the memory the game controller everything that comes along with the council in the box.

My point you got a whole gaming system for $400 bucks.

But high end graphics cards cost almost double that and all you get is just that one component you still need to put it inside a PC with all the other stuff memory hard drive motherboard case power supply etc

I guess my point is it is pretty amazing for 400 bucks you get a whole council gaming system and for 800 bucks you just get one video card one part to a PC gaming rig.

And I'm a PC gamer Don't even own any councils or like them but starting to think we're getting ripped off being PC guys.
PS5's GPU is exactly 1/2 of a 6800xt

A GPU like that will likely cost $350-$400. Which is the cost of a PS5, disc drive-less version. And actually, right this moment, that GPU doesn't exist. So you have to either buy a 5700xt for $400 and miss out on some features or a 2070super for $500. Ebernanut, that means the PS5 is not "budget" PC and won't be compared to one, for some time. A "budget" PC is when you are spending under $200 on a brand new GPU. Even if you were spending $200----the PS5 and XSX GPUs are equivalent to GPUs costing twice that (or more, in the case of Nvidia).

The PS5 will drastically outsell any individual graphics card. PS5 pricing is probably based on an initial order of like 10-20 million units. So the price per chip, is a lot less than the price per chip of a PC GPU. Same goes for all of the other components to make it a funtioning PS5 or a PC GPU. Lifetime PS4 sales recently surpassed 100 million. Sony understands that gaming needs to be realistically affordable and that is also the general culture of gaming. so they sell stuff at a loss or at cost, for a long time. They make their money in volume and also from other products and services for the PS5. The money is not from individual units.

GPUs are priced and sold on MUCH smaller orders. And never sold at a loss, let alone at cost. The money is made on the sale of individual units.
And with PC, you have a different market of choices and sub-cultures----which can also be taken advantage of. So, you have opportunities to create different price points to cater to or take advantage of, these sub cultures/different potential customer categories. Most GPU sales are the affordable, lower cost ones. But the PC builder culture invites opportunities for other options. And with PC parts, you can also buy parts from several different brands. With a console, you have one choice. You get a PS5 from Sony, you get an XSX from MS. For a PC GPU or some other part, you can get them from several different brands. It further inflates the prices.
But even with that in mind, PC part prices would hopefully be a lot less, if each individual part could expect over 20 million units.


----

Anyway, Nvidia literally delayed this release, to try and save up stock on the 3070, for more availability. and it still didn't protect us from scalpers. I don't expect larger numbers of 3070's in the coming weeks. and I expect the situation to remain dire for Nvidia card availability, until someone somewhere puts the foot down and starts limiting cards to one per customer (beyond something simple like per email address or whatever) and also implementing bot defense.
 
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Ebernanut

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A GPU like that will likely cost $350-$400. Which is the cost of a PS5, disc drive-less version. And actually, right this moment, that GPU doesn't exist. So you have to either buy a 5700xt for $400 and miss out on some features or a 2070super for $500. @Ebernanut, that means the PS5 is not "budget" PC and won't be compared to one, for some time. A "budget" PC is when you are spending under $200 on a brand new GPU. Even if you were spending $200----the PS5 and XSX GPUs are equivalent to GPUs costing twice that (or more, in the case of Nvidia).
The 5700xt is a mid-range card from the last generation making it equivalent to the low end cards that haven't been released yet, I would consider that a good level for a current budget gaming pc build. I guess that depends on what someone considers a budget gaming pc, currently I wouldn't consider any $200 GPU for a new build though you could get by with one at 1080p. Consoles are a good deal at launch for the performance level you get but they're always over hyped in that regard and the comparison even more in favor of PC between console gens.
 

chameleoneel

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The 5700xt is a mid-range card from the last generation making it equivalent to the low end cards that haven't been released yet, I would consider that a good level for a current budget gaming pc build.
How long will we have to wait to get the new $350 - $400 cards? Right now, the cards generally equivalent in performance to the consoles are the 5700XT which is not at features parity, for $400. Or the 2070 super, which is currently a mystery because its drastically inflated. But if it were at its normal price----well that just got replaced by the 3070. So the 2070s should be lowered in price. But its not.

5700xt and 2070super are not "budget" cards.

And in the end, that ~$400 only gets you a graphics card. Not an entire, functioning system like the PS5. and that's the point. You won't be able to build a $400 PC which competes with a PS5, for some time. PS5 and XSX level of performance in a PC GPU will come down in price in a few months, when new products are released. yes (assuming availability). One can assume that a 36cu RDNA2 PC card, would be $300-$350. That still is not "budget". Its still just a card. And you still will not be able to build an entire, more or less equivalent system, for the price.
 

LukeTbk

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And in the end, that ~$400 only gets you a graphics card. Not an entire, functioning system like the PS5. and that's the point. You won't be able to build a $400 PC which competes with a PS5, for some time. PS5 and XSX level of performance in a PC GPU will come down in price in a few months, when new products are released. yes (assuming availability). One can assume that a 36cu RDNA2 PC card, would be $300-$350. That still is not "budget". Its still just a card. And you still will not be able to build an entire, more or less equivalent system, for the price.

A bit like we do not tend to put the cost of a tv in the cost of a new console because most people would have a tv anyway, the same is often true for a gaming pc most potential buyer would have some form of a pc (it some case it would have been a tablet, laptop instead but sometime a desktop) anyway the question becoming do a put $200 more in said PC and a video card or go for a console. The scenario do I build a hole PC just for gaming that I will plug on a TV to play games or do I get a playstation to plug on the same TV must exist yes, but is not necessarily the common one, how much do I upgrade the PC I have to do web browsing/email/etc... is probably more common.
 

chameleoneel

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A bit like we do not tend to put the cost of a tv in the cost of a new console because most people would have a tv anyway, the same is often true for a gaming pc most potential buyer would have some form of a pc (it some case it would have been a tablet, laptop instead but sometime a desktop) anyway the question becoming do a put $200 more in said PC and a video card or go for a console. The scenario do I build a hole PC just for gaming that I will plug on a TV to play games or do I get a playstation to plug on the same TV must exist yes, but is not necessarily the common one, how much do I upgrade the PC I have to do web browsing/email/etc... is probably more common.
response like these always puzzle me. This only applies to people with already have custom PCs.

most people don't even have desktops nowadays. And those who do are often using a prebuilt like a dell or Lenovo, which probably doesn't have a PCIE slot. will have a non-standard case size. Would need a power supply upgrade for a $400 GPU. And that power supply likely won't fit.
upgrading the household PC is not something you can count on.
 

LukeTbk

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response like these always puzzle me. This only applies to people with already have custom PCs.

most people don't even have desktops nowadays. And those who do are often using a prebuilt like a dell or Lenovo, which probably doesn't have a PCIE slot. will have a non-standard case size. Would need a power supply upgrade for a $400 GPU. And that power supply likely won't fit.
upgrading the household PC is not something you can count on.
Exactly (thus why console are quite popular), the cost for those people of a gaming PC would be the difference between what they bought instead of one (IPAD/prebuilt) and a PC able to game. But if we assume about everyone working from home does it with a PC like device, that a lot of people. Say they are working on a $650 PC like device excluding monitor, if they would have went for a capable of gaming PC instead that difference is what it would have "costed them"

Everyone posting on HFboard does too, have one and for almost all of them it is between a video card and a PS5 (you do not need that special of CPU to be GPU bound on console like games).
 

Ready4Dis

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A bit like we do not tend to put the cost of a tv in the cost of a new console because most people would have a tv anyway, the same is often true for a gaming pc most potential buyer would have some form of a pc (it some case it would have been a tablet, laptop instead but sometime a desktop) anyway the question becoming do a put $200 more in said PC and a video card or go for a console. The scenario do I build a hole PC just for gaming that I will plug on a TV to play games or do I get a playstation to plug on the same TV must exist yes, but is not necessarily the common one, how much do I upgrade the PC I have to do web browsing/email/etc... is probably more common.
The chance of a household having a TV that will just work with a console are *much* higher than a household having a PC that has a power supply and case that can fit a GPU that they are comfortable doing themselves. It's not really a valid comparison. Most people who can afford a gaming system have already bought a TV... not near as many will have a desktop that's upgradable. So I would argue there are likely more costs associated with a GPU purchase than a console purchase in general. This is why people often don't include the cost of the TV, because most people buying a console already have a TV. A lot of people buying GPU's do not have a PC already and are either building or buying a pre-built. This may not be true for you and I, but we are the exceptions to the norm :).
 

erball

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The only upside to this whole debacle has been used card values have somewhat bounced back. I almost sold my 2060 for 190, now I see them going for $250 again.
 

Aireoth

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Damn impossible to buy a 3000 series card in Canada. I personally know 2 other people who have even heard of a 3080/3070.
Super frustrating, but it’s not like my 2070 Super is junk. The Radeon 6950 Toxic in my daughter’s computer is long in the tooth though and she’s set up to get the RX580 in my second system as soon as I can manage to land a new 6000 or 3000 series.
Ryzen 5000 and Radeon 6000 are going to be impossible to get too, I can feel it.

edit - damn impossible for someone who doesn’t live in the GTA next to a Canada Computers or Memory Express store and has a full time job that involves not standing in a line for a product unless it’s food and we just got nuked or something.

Naa, Memx Alberta has had a whooping total of 4 3090 cards to date and I'm certain the 3080 isn't fairing much better. Stock just doesn't exist, and a few lucky people snagging one does not change that fact.
 

sethk

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I wonder if we will hear the "there was plenty of stock, but we weren't anticipating this much demand" explanation from AMD if they sell out, like we heard from Nvidia. Everyone says there will be more stock than Nvidia's launch, but that's not saying much.

I wonder if it will be available long enough for a normal human being to look at a few cards, think about it, do a google search, add to cart, take a sip of coffee, login and enter payment info, like a normal purchase.
 

Aireoth

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I wonder if we will hear the "there was plenty of stock, but we weren't anticipating this much demand" explanation from AMD if they sell out, like we heard from Nvidia. Everyone says there will be more stock than Nvidia's launch, but that's not saying much.

I wonder if it will be available long enough for a normal human being to look at a few cards, think about it, do a google search, add to cart, take a sip of coffee, login and enter payment info, like a normal purchase.
AMD will sell out because nVidia flubbed so badly they created a vacum and AMD is only geared for supplying 1/5th the market (their normal user base).
 

noko

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AMD will sell out because nVidia flubbed so badly they created a vacum and AMD is only geared for supplying 1/5th the market (their normal user base).
I would expect AMD to have some level of confidence in their endeavors, if they had the attitude of "Nvidia killer", if, with the confidence that goes along with it then they should have Nvidia levels of supply. Not saying they will. I do expect that they procured a higher quantity of GPUs than their previous endeavours. Anyways a great opportunity to gauge AMD's responsiveness to changing market conditions. Their integration of their CPU business to enhance the GPU business to support each other should help sell both more. Meaning if they have confidence in that also, they will procure more foundry space to go along with that. I am thinking of Lisa Su as more like a Steve Jobs, maybe smarter as well.
 

Aireoth

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I would expect AMD to have some level of confidence in their endeavors, if they had the attitude of "Nvidia killer", if, with the confidence that goes along with it then they should have Nvidia levels of supply. Not saying they will. I do expect that they procured a higher quantity of GPUs than their previous endeavours. Anyways a great opportunity to gauge AMD's responsiveness to changing market conditions. Their integration of their CPU business to enhance the GPU business to support each other should help sell both more. Meaning if they have confidence in that as well, will procure more foundry space. I am thinking of Lisa Su as more like a Steve Jobs, maybe smarter as well.

There is no way AMD anticipated that nVidia would flub this hard 8 months ago, add in COVID uncertainty and its a guarantee AMD will not have the stock needed to supply the market. They are used to a 20% position, and even with an nVidia killer AMD must know they have an uphill battle to translate that into sales.

They will have more stock than nVidia, as nVidia royally messed that up. They will fill the vacum to the best of their ability, but that vacum is imho larger than the stock they will show up with.
 

noko

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There is no way AMD anticipated that nVidia would flub this hard 8 months ago, add in COVID uncertainty and its a guarantee AMD will not have the stock needed to supply the market. They are used to a 20% position, and even with an nVidia killer AMD must know they have an uphill battle to translate that into sales.

They will have more stock than nVidia, as nVidia royally messed that up. They will fill the vacum to the best of their ability, but that vacum is imho larger than the stock they will show up with.
We don't know one way or another, are you saying they will just go with Navi level or Vega level of cards? Plus we don't know how much foundry space was available. If they have the confidence that they will be stomping all over Nvidia, appears they will be, I would expect them to act that way and have more GPU's than they put out in the past. The rather dry supply of GPUs from Nvidia to AIB partners opens a gateway for components to be reallocated for RNDA2 cards for those AIBs that make both AMD and Nvidia cards. Now if the Consoles as well as Zen 3 consumed too much of the foundry, it can be a rather bleak winter for GPUs.

As for meeting demand, I too doubt it.
 
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With Nvidia dropping the ball out the window and down the street into the garbage. I don’t see AMD meeting the demands that we see right now. Do I believe they will have more cards, yes I do. Also they have had a bit of time to start ramping up to make more cards seeing as Nvidia has no stock. Yes I know that takes months to fill. But I believe AMD is in a better position to ramp up their production faster to fill that void then Nvidia. I see AMD selling out but being able to get it in stock to the point a normal person with out a bot can get one by Xmas.
 

Aireoth

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We don't know one way or another, are you saying they will just go with Navi level or Vega level of cards? Plus we don't know how much foundry space was available. If they have the confidence that they will be stomping all over Nvidia, appears they will be, I would expect them to act that way and have more GPU's than they put out in the past. The rather dry supply of GPUs from Nvidia to AIB partners opens a gateway for components to be reallocated for RNDA2 cards for those AIBs that make both AMD and Nvidia cards. Now if the Consoles as well as Zen 3 consumed too much of the foundry, it can be a rather bleak winter for GPUs.

As for meeting demand, I too doubt it.

Not sure what your arguing, AMD would have made a business call early this year on how much and what to produce, they more likely than not planned around their current market penetration with potentially a small uplift for increased demand. They would not have planned for nVidia's failure to execute, to much risk and uncertainty that they would fail.

I doubt any ramping up since september would have a deamatic stock impact.

tldr
AMD won't have planned for nVidia's failed launch, they won't have the stock to meet the new increased demand. count yourself lucky if you get a new gpu this year.
 
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I know vRAM isn't everything, but imagine regressing in vRAM capacity after 4 years. That makes no sense as higher resolution gaming becomes more mainstream for the market buying these tier of cards and as we head into the next console gen.
 

Comixbooks

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Bottom line, I'll be honest, I'm fucking pissed I can't buy a 3080 or 3070 now.

Has cash in hand for a month looking for a 3080 for $699 and nowhere. Sold out everywhere. Microcenter gets like 1 or 2 cards in a week, and there's losers waiting outside at 3am for the chance to get one. I'll never do that.

And now today, the 3070 sold out within hours at Microcenter. With zero info on when they expect more.

Buy online? Sold out. Most sites even say can't even back order or reserve.

And what the F is nVidia saying about all this? NOTHING. That's pretty ballsy for them to ignore this, like nothing's wrong.

And to top it off, old cards from years ago like the 2080 are selling for $800+ WTF? Thst old card should be like $300.

Makes me wanna sell my nice gaming rig and curved display, and say screw this hobby.

Step away from the PC
 

HockeyJon

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3070 in store only here in Canada, sad to see the $700 price tag though.....
https://www.memoryexpress.com/Category/VideoCards?FilterID=96554b60-9046-5919-7e9c-71e75e02e975

https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX00114560

$875 for an ROG Strix 3070. What idiot would buy this when you can get an ASUS TUF 3080 from the same store for $95 more?

https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX00114004

I’ve also seen the 3080 TUF for $950 retail.

The pricing of some of these cards is so broken. There is nothing you can do to that Strix to make it perform anywhere close to the 3080 TUF for that
 
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