Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced for release on 11/11/11.

PrincessFrosty said:
Anyone with eyeballs can see it's not a significant step forward, the problem is most people who liked Oblivion are probably playing it heavily modified and compared to a modded Oblivion Skyrim will likely be a giant step backwards.
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Depending what mods you use, most games can feel like a step backwards. The mod community for these games is very impressive. As long as Skyrim is a bit of a step up from Oblivion and isn't as holy shit buggy I'll be happy enough. The improved bow combat looks good and the new magic system looks like something modders will have a field day with.

TheOneKnownAsMe said:
I'm still upset that the combat is so bland and 2-dimensional.
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I can't think of a single TES-like game with really good combat. Most things in games like this are passable, sometimes edging on good.
 
Combat sounds like it will be slightly better than Oblivion (which isn't saying too much). I don't understand why there can't at least be parrying. Go play Batman, Mount & Blade or Dark Messiah Todd!!!!!!
 
It looks like they took notes from the modding community and put "deadly reflexes" in the game. Fine by me. That's alI really played with in Oblivion once the mod came out.
 
Parmenides said:
Combat sounds like it will be slightly better than Oblivion (which isn't saying too much). I don't understand why there can't at least be parrying. Go play Batman, Mount & Blade or Dark Messiah Todd!!!!!!
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Which is silly, considering Bethesda houses Arkane Studios, the guys behind Dark Messiah.
 
Yea i'm playing Dark Messiah atm, for the first time.

A little part of my enjoyment in the TES series died the first time i kicked someone who was in the process of standing up and his head got impaled on a spike.

The AI looks like they cut it right out of oblivion too. Even Dark Messiah's mobs wonder why their friend just dropped dead... yet it looks like everyone in TES is still working with 1/10 of a brain :(
 
That's always been Bethesda's problem, they spend more time making the environments look so jaw dropping that they forget to put an actual game in there. Combat has long been a sore spot in this series, and they KNOW that, yet they seem to do nothing to fix that.

They don't really believe that adding spells and swords as your combat options with either hand fixes that? It doesn't, all it does is add to a different playing style than previous Elder Scrolls without fixing the core issue, namely, how fucking stupid the AI is.
 
Fail said:
That's always been Bethesda's problem, they spend more time making the environments look so jaw dropping that they forget to put an actual game in there. Combat has long been a sore spot in this series, and they KNOW that, yet they seem to do nothing to fix that.

They don't really believe that adding spells and swords as your combat options with either hand fixes that? It doesn't, all it does is add to a different playing style than previous Elder Scrolls without fixing the core issue, namely, how fucking stupid the AI is.
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Like I said earlier with these types of games most things are simply passable, maybe a few things bordering on good. Jack of all trades, master of none basically. Bethesda does really need to focus on combat for the next game though or maybe in an expansion.
 
They are going in the right direction no doubt, and they have been from MW->Oblivion->FO3 .... but seem to be making a very slow crawl towards the right direction, still holding onto much of the old. Some of those videos were from old alphas... hopefully there have been improvements since then. AI probably is still undergoing work.
 
Derangel said:
Like I said earlier with these types of games most things are simply passable, maybe a few things bordering on good. Jack of all trades, master of none basically. Bethesda does really need to focus on combat for the next game though or maybe in an expansion.
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I know it's close to the release date for Skyrim, but still, there's no real excuse for them to have to "wait" for the next game. Oblivion came out in 2006, this is 5 years later, they had 5 years to get this done. They have failed.

Parmenides said:
They are going in the right direction no doubt, and they have been from MW->Oblivion->FO3 .... but seem to be making a very slow crawl towards the right direction, still holding onto much of the old. Some of those videos were from old alphas... hopefully there have been improvements since then. AI probably is still undergoing work.
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I agree with this, but I disagree about the AI, I don't have faith that they will fix the AI, except artificially by enabling them to deal more damage, but they will likely still be easily kitable.
 
Fail said:
I know it's close to the release date for Skyrim, but still, there's no real excuse for them to have to "wait" for the next game. Oblivion came out in 2006, this is 5 years later, they had 5 years to get this done. They have failed.
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Yes. Though their big focus seemed to be on the engine this time around and they ignored almost everything else.
 
Derangel said:
Yes. Though their big focus seemed to be on the engine this time around and they ignored almost everything else.
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Because the modding community will bail them out on PC, the consoles won't have any such luck, they will be stuck with paid DLC.
 
Fail said:
I agree with this, but I disagree about the AI, I don't have faith that they will fix the AI, except artificially by enabling them to deal more damage, but they will likely still be easily kitable.
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I'm not saying the AI will be much improved. More just speaking my hopes that they've had time to improve AI since that one video with the idiot bandit, who didn't notice that his buddy got shot to the ground. But AI will probably be only as good as consoles can handle with multiple enemies on screen. :(
 
Parmenides said:
I'm not saying the AI will be much improved. More just speaking my hopes that they've had time to improve AI since that one video with the idiot bandit, who didn't notice that his buddy got shot to the ground. But AI will probably be only as good as consoles can handle with multiple enemies on screen. :(
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Consolitis, my dear Parmenides, is a plague upon us.
 
Parmenides said:
I'm not saying the AI will be much improved. More just speaking my hopes that they've had time to improve AI since that one video with the idiot bandit, who didn't notice that his buddy got shot to the ground. But AI will probably be only as good as consoles can handle with multiple enemies on screen. :(
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AI advancement has been painfully slow this generation. Halo: CE still counts as a game with good AI and that is just wrong.
 
Here's a question that might make the hardcore PC folks cringe - anyone know if the PC version will support gamepads? I preferred the combat with one in the last game and considering how much time goes into playing 'em, I'd love to lay down on the couch while playing.
 
TheOneKnownAsMe said:
Which is silly, considering Bethesda houses Arkane Studios, the guys behind Dark Messiah.
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Their combat implementation, while not perfect, was quite good for the most part. Way better than any of the combat in the TES games.

Domingo said:
Here's a question that might make the hardcore PC folks cringe - anyone know if the PC version will support gamepads? I preferred the combat with one in the last game and considering how much time goes into playing 'em, I'd love to lay down on the couch while playing.
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I'd about guarantee it.
 
Domingo said:
Here's a question that might make the hardcore PC folks cringe - anyone know if the PC version will support gamepads? I preferred the combat with one in the last game and considering how much time goes into playing 'em, I'd love to lay down on the couch while playing.
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Definitely, should have native support for the 360 controller.

As for the game itself, it looks fine, the textures might not be as sharp as some of Oblivions modded ones but the animation is better, lighting is better, combat and magic are much better then vanilla Oblivion and overall the game does look like a huge step forward. Skyrim looks like a huge step forward over vanilla. Saying that I still think heavily modded Oblivion might have an edge over Skyrim in some areas but that won't matter too much since I'm sure people will make some pretty cutting edge mods for Skyrim since the creation kit is going to be released with or shortly after the games release.
 
Fail said:
I agree with this, but I disagree about the AI, I don't have faith that they will fix the AI, except artificially by enabling them to deal more damage, but they will likely still be easily kitable.
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Basically, wait 6-12 months, buy Skyrim on sale, download AI mod, UI mod, combat improvements mod, and graphics mod, then play the game :)

i really hope that the framework that they release for people to mod with is more robust or more capable (i don't know anything about modding heh) than the one for oblivion, because if so--perhaps people can fix combat in ways that weren't possible in Oblivion. Sure they had plenty of mods for it, but they never felt right imo... hopefully the combat mods released for Skyrim will have a chance of feeling right.
 
chockomonkey said:
Basically, wait 6-12 months, buy Skyrim on sale, download AI mod, UI mod, combat improvements mod, and graphics mod, then play the game :)

i really hope that the framework that they release for people to mod with is more robust or more capable (i don't know anything about modding heh) than the one for oblivion, because if so--perhaps people can fix combat in ways that weren't possible in Oblivion. Sure they had plenty of mods for it, but they never felt right imo... hopefully the combat mods released for Skyrim will have a chance of feeling right.
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A large part of the issue with combat was Gamebryo's Animation framework. Just like the rest of Gamebryo, it was absolute shit. And modders simply could not overcome what boiled down to a fundamental flaw within the game engine itself. Perhaps with an upgraded Animation framework, things will become much more flexible.

In any case, I still feel that a modded Morrowind holds an edge over both a modded Oblivion and vanilla Skyrim (Judging on what we've seen so far.)
 
Morrowind is by and far the best Elder Scrolls game for me so far.

When I played Oblivion, I didn't really feel like it had anything to do with that series whatsoever. Some of the lore was there, the races, the general atmosphere, but it all was so bland and uninspiring. And I could taste the Xbox in it, even back then in 2006.

-Topic count of NPC's was greatly reduced, voice acting did not make up for it
-Stupid leveling system, no sense of fear/excitement in exploration whatsoever
-Generally monotonous and boring environment
-Out of place fast-travel system, the traveling in Morrowind made sense within the game world and you had to use the available routes
-Bad art direction, overuse of effects (HDR), awkward faces/models

And so forth. The only improvement I could give Oblivion credit to was the combat system, which although better, wasn't anything particularly special, not even proper combos or a wide variety of moves. Sure, Morrowind's combat was not the most interesting either (although it was far more if you had a pure mage character), but I found the other qualities of the game (lore - how many of you actually read most of the books in the game?, number and quality of quests, design of the game world, story, atmosphere/immersion, etc.) more than made up for the somewhat unimaginative combat.

As far as Skyrim, we'll see, I don't expect it to stand up to Morrowind because it is catered to an audience which does not have the attention span for the stats, the leveling, the lore, can not appreciate the amount of detail and storytelling that Morrowind had, and is only interested in charging in head-first with a dual-axe wielding orc, or hurling colorfull spellballs at gigantic dragons.

Naturally, feel free to challenge my opinion.
 
I like these type of open world RPG games, I'd prefer guns, but the weapons make sense given the games theme and setting, but my regard for this game will come down to a number of things, including the storyline and whether the game feels compelling to solider on.

Also, it'd have to be gun fighting those dragons, their size and animations are decent enough....

This is more than likely going to be a good game, but won't be great unless the story can carry it.
 
I actually hated Morrowind. I think it might be the only game that was more brown than the first Quake.
There were lots of gameplay elements I liked, but the look of the game (and the fact that I really don't care for elven-lore much) made me go through it ultra-quick and then never play it again.
Daggerfall remains my favorite of the series. Modern games never seem to replicate the ability to have an absolutely MASSIVE castle or palace that you can see in the distance, only to actually be able to approach it and see that the whole thing is totally fleshed out and explorable without a dozen loading screens. Some of those dungeons and castles were absolutely epic.
 
I loved Morrowind, because it was such a strange environment and the first times I wondered out I suffered a severe beating. Oblivion was much easier and after I played it a couple times the leveling system and combat got on my nerves, thankfully their were a few good mods that made both much more interesting and I got a couple hundred more hours out of it.

Now modded Oblivion is much more amazing then any other game I've played including Morrowind.
 
Raudulfr said:
Maybe Bethesda should hire some of these modders?
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I'm sure their current devs could have made good AI and a sweet combat system, maybe even wanted to, but when "accessibility" is the company's only concern, it's going to be consolized trash regardless of who codes it
 
chockomonkey said:
I'm sure their current devs could have made good AI and a sweet combat system, maybe even wanted to, but when "accessibility" is the company's only concern, it's going to be consolized trash regardless of who codes it
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Don't you dare claim bad AI is due to consoles. NO ONE has focused on AI not console developers and not PC exclusive ones either. AI has been a fucking disappointment for years from every single developer in the industry.
 
^^ wasn't trying to claim that. Was instead saying that the people making the game are no doubt gamers themselves and know all of the flaws in the game they're making. They probably would even like to fix them, but the person signing their paychecks gets to decide where they spend their time--which is obviously not on AI development... their time is being spent on making the game accessible.
 
Part of the issue is design related. Making an AI that is "hard" is not necessarily the goal. For example you can make the AI predict your movements extremely accurately, instantly snap to you, have perfect accuracy, have all the enemies instantly swarm you and etc, these things are relatively trivial. The problem is an AI that behaves this way, especially depending on the game, does not mean it would be the most enjoyable experience. Many AI handicaps are actually done on purpose to fit the game play.
 
chockomonkey said:
^^ wasn't trying to claim that. Was instead saying that the people making the game are no doubt gamers themselves and know all of the flaws in the game they're making. They probably would even like to fix them, but the person signing their paychecks gets to decide where they spend their time--which is obviously not on AI development... their time is being spent on making the game accessible.
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I doubt they even hired people that are good at AI. Just people good enough. I'm sure you're right about them knowing the problems, but yeah it just isn't their focus. Sadly it isn't anyone's focus. I would love to see AI and physics vastly improve. Havok is clearly not going to improve any time soon so we really need to see studios step up and take it to the next step themselves.
 
Derangel said:
I doubt they even hired people that are good at AI. Just people good enough. I'm sure you're right about them knowing the problems, but yeah it just isn't their focus. Sadly it isn't anyone's focus. I would love to see AI and physics vastly improve. Havok is clearly not going to improve any time soon so we really need to see studios step up and take it to the next step themselves.
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Keep in mind there is also a huge factor when talking about AI.. how realistic is it.

Not everyone out there is a keen and agile fighter... Take the average nerd here and throw them in a ring and 6 months later what will you see, a large degree of variety in how people approach combat and defense etc..

I think a lot of variety in AI is key.. Some people who will attack hard and fast (sometimes foolishly even) and others who will take a more defensive approach .

One big thing I want to see is doing away with back-pedaling for AI characters as a mainstay of retreat. It looks stupid and unrealistic seeing someone backpedal constantly... there should be more of a spinning like you would in real life if you were to run.

When it comes to combat I much prefer the oblivion/mount and blade style of things. I really despise scripted actions that lock players into a certain action/animation... while it looks pretty it just feels disconnected and totally unreal.
 
Weenis said:
Keep in mind there is also a huge factor when talking about AI.. how realistic is it.

Not everyone out there is a keen and agile fighter... Take the average nerd here and throw them in a ring and 6 months later what will you see, a large degree of variety in how people approach combat and defense etc..

I think a lot of variety in AI is key.. Some people who will attack hard and fast (sometimes foolishly even) and others who will take a more defensive approach .

One big thing I want to see is doing away with back-pedaling for AI characters as a mainstay of retreat. It looks stupid and unrealistic seeing someone backpedal constantly... there should be more of a spinning like you would in real life if you were to run.

When it comes to combat I much prefer the oblivion/mount and blade style of things. I really despise scripted actions that lock players into a certain action/animation... while it looks pretty it just feels disconnected and totally unreal.
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Yeah, variability is the key to believable AI. I have no problems with shooting a dude with an arrow and having his friend stand there in stunned silence, I'm sure a lot of people would do that in real life. But likewise there should be other times where the AI takes cover, hides his head. I think people sometimes mistake aggressive AI for good AI when really what it needs is variability.

At the end of the day that's how you tell whether you're fighting bots or real people, the bots will always do the same thing, the real people will be variable, you have the predictable noobs, the skilled flankers, the dudes who just stand there and manage to headshot you before you can kill them, etc etc.

But what Skyrim needs most is a decent combat system. A proper block, dodge and movement system which so many games have achieved but TES fails at doing.

But still, I remain enthusiastic that the game will be an improvement over Oblivion.
 
I've been watching the Condemned Fear Gauntlet, and while the enemies there doesn't really have too much to do, the limited actions they do have are really well done. If they're unarmed they'll run around looking for something to arm themselves with, and they'll fight each other. You can see when they replay a segment that things doesn't play out in exactly the same manner if there are multiple AIs in play as they interact in subtly different ways.
 
Regarding AI, I get tired of seeing a lone wolf come and attack where it probably should run away. Same when you are a bad ass warrior and some toll road minion is trying to collect some taxes. They should either run or make small talk and act like nothing is going on to get you to leave them alone. Same goes when they are getting clobbered, they should make them try to run away. I don't think anyone would fight to the death if they are about to die and they didn't bloody their opponent.

I could buy it better in Morrowind when the animals were diseased, the reason for their attack.
 
I don't think combat is the drawcard for this game, though it depends on how tough some of the enemies are and how effective spells and upgrades are.
 
Rain-X said:
Regarding AI, I get tired of seeing a lone wolf come and attack where it probably should run away. Same when you are a bad ass warrior and some toll road minion is trying to collect some taxes. They should either run or make small talk and act like nothing is going on to get you to leave them alone. Same goes when they are getting clobbered, they should make them try to run away. I don't think anyone would fight to the death if they are about to die and they didn't bloody their opponent.

I could buy it better in Morrowind when the animals were diseased, the reason for their attack.
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Depends -- Sometimes that would be awesome. Other times you're going to go.. well everyone always runs away from me if I'm awesome what fun is that.

There needs to be variables

Not everyone will run when losing a fight - if someone tries to kill you and you try to turn tail and run... what happens if they're faster or have a bow or throw a weapon at you... all you did was tire yourself out and make it easier for them to defeat you.
 
Rain-X said:
Regarding AI, I get tired of seeing a lone wolf come and attack where it probably should run away. Same when you are a bad ass warrior and some toll road minion is trying to collect some taxes. They should either run or make small talk and act like nothing is going on to get you to leave them alone. Same goes when they are getting clobbered, they should make them try to run away. I don't think anyone would fight to the death if they are about to die and they didn't bloody their opponent.

I could buy it better in Morrowind when the animals were diseased, the reason for their attack.
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This was always one of the biggest annoyances for me. I didn't like that in Oblivion, all wildlife except for deer are always hostile. I really wish they would overhaul that. Perhaps giving animals like wolves and mountain lions hunting cycles or something. It would be neat if it were dangerous to travel at night with a relevantly low chance of being attacked in daylight when these animals would normally be sleeping. Skyrim obviously does have some animals that only attack when provoked (such as the mammoths), but I really hope that the more viscous wildlife isn't codded to just attack on sight.

As you suggested, the same would be great for bandits. The logical thought process for a bandit should be to size up their foe before jumping in. It would be neat if you had encounters with them where their decision to attack or not was determined based on the conversation you have with them. Like with a high enough persuasion you could talk yourself out of a fight.
 
Viper87227 said:
This was always one of the biggest annoyances for me. I didn't like that in Oblivion, all wildlife except for deer are always hostile. I really wish they would overhaul that. Perhaps giving animals like wolves and mountain lions hunting cycles or something. It would be neat if it were dangerous to travel at night with a relevantly low chance of being attacked in daylight when these animals would normally be sleeping. Skyrim obviously does have some animals that only attack when provoked (such as the mammoths), but I really hope that the more viscous wildlife isn't codded to just attack on sight.

As you suggested, the same would be great for bandits. The logical thought process for a bandit should be to size up their foe before jumping in. It would be neat if you had encounters with them where their decision to attack or not was determined based on the conversation you have with them. Like with a high enough persuasion you could talk yourself out of a fight.
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I think Falout 3 did that if I recall. Bethseda is Sloooooowly moving in that direction. Skyrim will probably be an improvement over the previous. Most things people complain about Bethseda has been improving upon.... just ever so slowly, still holding onto some of their old ways. (though also gradually getting rid of some of the old things we all love as well)
 
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