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Dragon Age II

Domingo said:
Yeah, DA2 is a long way from being a bad game. I think it's just more of a disappointment compared to the first.
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I didn't love the first one that much. I found it irritating that I have to program the behavior of my team-mates in order to not die. The way I see it, if a character has healing skills, he/she should be smart enough to use them without explicit instructions to do so.
 
I really can't get into DA2 unfortunately...I had a lot of trouble getting into the first, but I thought that the streamlining of some aspects (like the conversation system) would help.

Guess not!!

It's times like this when I wish there was a used PC games market. I would be happy to unload it even for $20, but that can't happen because it's on my steam...
 
Domingo said:
You'd execute everything perfectly for 5-10 minutes but if you did get hit the enemy would occasionally just keep juggling you 'til you died. It just wasn't worth it to waste so much time only to get hit one time and never make it back to your feet again.
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This was my main problem with the fight on my Rogue. I didn't have a lot of abilities that helped on the fight so I was really slow getting down his HP. On two separate occasions I was in the fight for ~30 minutes and then got chain stunned from full HP until I was dead :rolleyes: If I had a respec potion on me I could have done it though, doh!
 
quadnad said:
It's times like this when I wish there was a used PC games market. I would be happy to unload it even for $20, but that can't happen because it's on my steam...
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I'd happily buy it off you for $20 :p
 
WabeWalker said:
I can't believe what just happened.

I just entered a room in which I was attacked by six shades, a rage demon, and a desire demon. Once I defeated this lot (it took me about seven attempts), six more shades immediately spawned along with another rage demon and a fucking revenant. On Hard this fight was virtually impossible to win, so after thirty minutes of swearing and hitting my table, I had zero choice but to bump the difficulty slider all the way down to Casual

On Casual I was able to make it through these two sequences, although my Mage and my archer both went down. At which time a third group spawned! I couldn't believe it... just couldn't believe it. This time another six shade demons spawned in the accompaniment of another god damned rage demon.

I finally managed to defeat this merry band, when... queue drumroll please... a fucking arcane horror appeared with a bunch more shades.

On Casual, I barely made it through this sequence - we're talking four separate spawning incidents with high level NPCs to contend with. I don't see how it would be possible for a normal person to get through this on Hard, let alone Nightmare. Seriously, anybody who thinks that Origins was even remotely this difficult is full of shit, plain and simple.

What is this, some kind of joke?
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I wiped pretty easily the first time on this fight because I wasn't really expecting that second wave. I tried it again, and just ran into the hallway nearby, and was able to funnel some of the mobs into the area and the fight was much easier. I kept it on hard the whole time running with me as a DW rogue, Aveline as my tank, Merrill as dmg dealer, and Anders as a healer/damage dealer (vengeance and martyr spam to get quicker heal cooldown then switch off when his health is below 50% - guy is a beast).

After doing it that way, I felt a bit cheap, and did it again without moving to another room. I just sent everyone on the desire demon and took her out as quickly as possible because she buffs all her minions. She actually went down quick with mark of death + hex of torment, and my rogue took her to 50% in no time with twin fangs and assassinate. The next waves were killer though as I had to still kite a bit in that room. Probably a top 5 toughest fight for me so far in the game, though.
 
Mark_Warner said:
I didn't love the first one that much. I found it irritating that I have to program the behavior of my team-mates in order to not die. The way I see it, if a character has healing skills, he/she should be smart enough to use them without explicit instructions to do so.
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:confused: You werent forced to use tactics. You could turn them all off and choose to control each party member on your own if you wanted to. It sounds like you would have preferred that your healer just automatically heal on his own without any interaction from you? That is exactly what the tactics interface was designed to let you do though!

Color me royally confused sir.
 
Domingo said:
Dragon Age 2 isn't as hard as DA1 was on the whole...at least to me DA1 revolved around having mages use sleep and cone of cold and if you didn't have/use those two spells some battles were borderline unwinnable. However if you did use those spells, the game was pretty easy from beginning to end. Playing without them, especially on hard and nightmare requires some insane micro-management of potions, friendly fire, and kiting.
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Cone of Cold is very useful but Flame Blast followed by Mass Paralysis gets the job done pretty well, maybe with a Walking Bomb thrown in for lulz. Mages have so many ways to kill--DA:O is to mages as NWN is to rogues.

Mark_Warner said:
I didn't love the first one that much. I found it irritating that I have to program the behavior of my team-mates in order to not die. The way I see it, if a character has healing skills, he/she should be smart enough to use them without explicit instructions to do so.
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Less is better when it comes to scripting, especially with conserving mana for emergency spellcasting.
 
Mark_Warner said:
I didn't love the first one that much. I found it irritating that I have to program the behavior of my team-mates in order to not die. The way I see it, if a character has healing skills, he/she should be smart enough to use them without explicit instructions to do so.
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It's a party based RPG, not a solo RPG with NPC's. The whole point of party based RPG's is micromanagement.
 
Yeah...and I don't like party-based RPGs, I discovered. DA2 was more forgiving of my solo playstyle.

KenG10 said:
:confused: You werent forced to use tactics. You could turn them all off and choose to control each party member on your own if you wanted to. It sounds like you would have preferred that your healer just automatically heal on his own without any interaction from you? That is exactly what the tactics interface was designed to let you do though!

Color me royally confused sir.
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I don't want to program my party mates, and I don't like controlling them directly. I prefer solo RPGs. I played DA on the recommendation of lots of friends. Didn't care for it. DA2 was much better at letting me pretend my party mates didn't exist.
 
Mark_Warner said:
I don't want to program my party mates, and I don't like controlling them directly. I prefer solo RPGs. I played DA on the recommendation of lots of friends. Didn't care for it. DA2 was much better at letting me pretend my party mates didn't exist.
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Not trying to troll you or anything, but you didn't have to use party mates either. ;)

I guess I will just conclude that DA:O was not for you then. Have you tried the Gothic series or The Witcher?
 
KenG10 said:
Not trying to troll you or anything, but you didn't have to use party mates either. ;)

I guess I will just conclude that DA:O was not for you then. Have you tried the Gothic series or The Witcher?
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Yep. I liked The Witcher, but felt that Gothic (3 i think) looked nice but played a bit...dodgy.
 
Mark_Warner said:
Yep. I liked The Witcher, but felt that Gothic (3 i think) looked nice but played a bit...dodgy.
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It plays a fuckton better these days, but still suffers from stutter and improved, yet still meh, combat. The fun comes when you start clearing out towns for whatever faction you choose. I think I spent an hour just purging Monterra.
 
Divinity II: The Dragon Knight Saga is a great solo RPG. It's Diablo, Torchlight, and Oblivion all rolled together.
 
fornarmr said:
I wiped pretty easily the first time on this fight because I wasn't really expecting that second wave. I tried it again, and just ran into the hallway nearby, and was able to funnel some of the mobs into the area and the fight was much easier. I kept it on hard the whole time running with me as a DW rogue, Aveline as my tank, Merrill as dmg dealer, and Anders as a healer/damage dealer (vengeance and martyr spam to get quicker heal cooldown then switch off when his health is below 50% - guy is a beast).

After doing it that way, I felt a bit cheap, and did it again without moving to another room. I just sent everyone on the desire demon and took her out as quickly as possible because she buffs all her minions. She actually went down quick with mark of death + hex of torment, and my rogue took her to 50% in no time with twin fangs and assassinate. The next waves were killer though as I had to still kite a bit in that room. Probably a top 5 toughest fight for me so far in the game, though.
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You said some things here.

I like this idea of having Merrill and Anders in the party as a damage dealer and a healer respectively. I'm going to try this tonight. I guess I'm going to have to have a look at Anders's personal skill tree, Vengeance, and also the Entropy tree for Merrill.

You said you had Aveline as your tank, and yourself as the rogue. Me, unfortunately I happened to be experimenting without Aveline at the time (in other words, I was without a tank), and had Fenris, Varic, and Merril in my party (my character is a rogue). You might have had the perfect party for this fight, whereas mine was gimped.

I was actually just experimenting with Varic at the time - in the Specialist tree, I spent six points to acquire Speed and its two upgrades, plus the big one, Harmony; I then went into Varic's personal tree and grabbed Bianca's Song and Well Oiled. With the two sustained abilities, Varic was shooting Bianca like a cartoon on fast forward.

Just so many options. The re-spec potions, I would say, are fundamental if you want to play the game on Hard, and learn what works.

And, again, I just never saw any of this in Origins. The various skill trees open up a seemingly endless amount of options. How can anybody say this is 'dumbed down'? It's ten times smarter than Dragon Age Bore-igins.
 
WabeWalker said:
And, again, I just never saw any of this in Origins. The various skill trees open up a seemingly endless amount of options. How can anybody say this is 'dumbed down'? It's ten times smarter than Dragon Age Bore-igins.
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There are plenty of other aspects of an RPG that could be dumbed down, not just the combat system. Just sayin' (I still have not played DA2).
 
Go grab a beer and a sammich - this may take a while.

I'm gonna preface this by stating that I've only played a little under 18 hours (middle-ish of Act 2?), which, as in ANY sprawling RPG, ain't that far into the game, but, honestly, I don't know how much more I'm gonna play.

Anyway.

Regarding comparing this game to DA:O - I'm sorry, folks, I have to. Because: a) they FUCKING CALLED IT Dragon Age 2, and b) I've got the same problem with this game I had with the whole "Ghost Recon" (1999, Red Storm Entertainment) vs. "Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter 1/2" debacle: judged on their own, neither of those (GR:AW) games are bad. In fact, they're kinda fun! But when compared to their namesake, the Advanced Warfighter games are simply: terribly unforgiving, terribly bland shooters, with a minimum of tactics thrown in. And it was exactly *because* they shared the name "Ghost Recon" that I inordinately hated them. Fucking. HATED. Them.

Solution?

Call 'em "Advanced Warfighter 1" & "Advanced Warfighter 2" and I would never have expected the tactical depth/immersion I got from the original GR, and therefore would have judged each of those games on their own merit; and I would have liked them a *lot* more. In other words, neither of those games are TERRIBLE games, but when compared to their namesake (GR), the suck donkey balls. And that ain't much fun for the donkey.

So if Bioware wanted to change the DA game so radically - then good on 'em! Go for it, I say! But they should have named it, say, Quest for Kirkwall, or Hawke Rising, or anything NOT associated with Dragon Age - THEN I wouldn't be (necessarily!) comparing it to Dragon Age: Origins! DA2 ain't a bad Action RPG on its own merits, but when you sell it to me as a SEQUEL to Dragon Age: Origins...I'm gonna fucking expect it to take off from the goddamned game it was named after, n'cest pas?!

Having said that:

DISLIKED -

- the way it runs. I've got a Core i7 laptop, with an SSD/HDD hybrid hard drive, 8GBs of PC10700 DDR3 system memory and an nVidia GT360m GPU w/1GB GDDR5 dedicated memory. If I try to run at 1680 x 1050 (my native resolution) with all the bling on "Very High"...it runs absolutely shit-tastically. And, though it looks (for the most part) better than DA:O, it doesn't look THAT good...not enough to warrant that severe framerate hit.

- a "Junk" section in the inventory! Um...what? Really? Shit I cannot fucking use...because IT'S JUNK. What the fuck were you thinking? Why not just give me a few extra coppers in the drop/loot? What's the fucking point?

- the re-used areas. I thought Bethesda had the market cornered on this, but Bioware has swooped in to claim the crown. Every fucking cave is THE SAME. At least two-thirds of the castles/houses/warehouses are THE SAME. The outdoor areas, not as bad, but...it all left a lazy, bad taste in my mouth.

- the voice acting/writing for your protagonist. Every one of my friends who loves the game raves how the fact that the protagonist now has a voice immerses you more. I say, Well, if it was GOOD voice acting...sure! But, really, it's not even so much the voice acting; it's what they wrote for the main character to say: it's terrible, terrible writing. Really - I've got three options EVERY TIME, and they amount to Angel, Humorous (not really) Jack-Ass, or Angry Dickhead. EVERY time. And the TRULY bad part about that? It's that...

- none of my choices made a bloody bit of difference (in all but the main quests-chain)! Whether I chose Polite Milquetoast, Class Clown or Douche-Monger...the result was the SAME every time!!! Nobody seemed to really give a fuck what I said to them! Whatever action they were scripted to do in a given situation...they did it, no matter which answer I gave 'em.

- inability to equip your party 90% of the time. Again, more tactics taken away. Can your tank really benefit from that Plate armor? Too bad. Could your mage really get some mileage out of that Elemental bonus ring? Tough. This sorta goes back to my "Junk" gripe: why not, then, just give me cash in my drops for the shit I cannot equip on my main character or my sidekicks? Sure it takes away some immersion, but so does the fact that nearly EVERYTHING that drops is only for ME.

- fighting enemies (not to be confused with the combat mechanics, which is on my "meh" list). Enemies now attack in waves. MUCH more than ever happened in DA:O. Walk into an area, you’ll see the usual handful of enemies waiting to attack. Pause, place your characters, issue orders, fire off spells and attacks, ration your mana and stamina carefully to ensure the boss can be taken down…then, suddenly, more enemies spawn in. And more after them.

This isn’t sometimes - it's every fucking fight. Wave after wave, so any tactics/strategy you might have become completely meaningless. And it’s not smoothly done, either - demons and the undead crawling out of the ground at least makes sense in the genre; but having half-a-dozen warriors/archers spawn in front of your character mid-fight...is asinine. Combat now is simply spamming abilities and waiting for them to cool-down as wave after wave spawns in.

AMBIVALENT -

- the size/scope of the game world. Although I kind of understand this from a timeliness point of view: they didn't have as much time to design as large a world as (maybe) they should/could have. It sucks, but...I accept it.

- the graphics. I don't think they're THAT much better than DA:O, but...eh. They're very nice.

- the lack of explorable areas IN-BETWEEN the main questing areas. You know, like in Planescape and Baldur's and (not as much, but still in) Icewind. I am coming to the realization that this is probably never going to make a comeback, so it's now on my, "It Sucks, but...whatever" list.

- the combat. It looks cooler, the animations (though overstated) are wonderful to watch, but...I miss the combinations/strategy involved with the (admittedly slower/clunkier) combat system from DA:O, so...meh.

LIKED -

- the streamlining of the talents. Though I could (and did) bitch about the loss of tactics/strategy because of the "dumbing-down", I can appreciate the ease with which one can choose/predict a talent path for their character now.

- the inventory/character screen, in general, is cleaner & much easier to navigate.

- the addition of SOMEBODY without a generic British/American accent (I'm talking about you, Merrill!)



Okay. Your eyes (if you haven't poked them out already) are probably dying now, so...go away! Read somebody else's endless rant about DA2!
biggrin.gif


Peace, y'all.
 
A bizarre post - you're arguing that 'tactics become meaningless' because enemies attack in waves?

WTF?

That's the very reason tactics ARE important! Huh?
 
Because you can't account for all the teleporting baddies unless you die every fight and know they're coming.

It's one of the staples of bad gameplay design, although an easy way to pad the game length.
 
tybert7 said:
I got the game based on this statement. If it's bad, I blame YOU!
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Well, I hope you enjoy Divinity II then! I hope you got the Saga version which includes Flames of Vengeance, and not just Ego Draconis :)
The beginning didn't draw me in immediately, but I saw the potential. A friend saw me playing the game on Steam about the time I had a few hours in and asked me how it was. I told him that it was a decent game so far but not amazing. By the time I finished the game I had rescinded my prior appraisal of the game and messaged him back that I'd recommend the game to him and score it a solid 8.5 to 9 out of 10.

If you find some gear at a low level that you like don't get rid of it! Not too much later on in the game you can modify the enchantments on the item to boost its stats and most things have charm slots as well for further enhancement (charms are permanent though). I like this system because if I find a combination of gear that looks good as an ensemble, it can stay relevant through the entire game. For example, I've kept the same Leggings and Helmet I had when I was level 5, all the way through the end game. Also, if you find a piece of gear that has great enchantments, but otherwise lousy stats, you can remove the enchantment from that item and then you can enchant one of your current pieces of gear with that particular enchantment.

My character looks the way I want it to look without being forced into throwing on whatever mismatching loot drops just to get slightly better protection.

The inventory system is nice as well. It has tabs to separate your stuff and it orders it logically with an auto-arrange button in the corner. You have plenty of inventory space to start with, and later you get a "camp chest" that you can automatically send anything in your inventory to should you run low on space or just want to save something without carrying it with you right now.

The game world is fairly large, and mostly open. There are a few impassible areas, but these are generally to keep you from skipping too far ahead in the story. The game will gladly let you wander into an area that is a much higher level than your character, if you chose to do so. No forced level scaling here. There are quick travel stations, and one of the major story points will let you roam the game world fairly quickly without having to rely on them, so traveling isn't a chore, yet you can hoof it anywhere you like if that's your preference.

There are "classes" but you are not restricted by them. You can pay points into whatever skills you like, so if you want to be a plate armor wearing battlemage, you can. If you want to be a stealthy Sword n' Board warrior, you can.

I could go on, but suffice it to say this:
The devs took a long hard look at most of the common annoyances of modern and past RPGs and made the game not do those things. Also the devs were willing to do something at the end of the game that you usually don't see happen. I won't spoil it.
 
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AceCR42 said:
Because you can't account for all the teleporting baddies unless you die every fight and know they're coming.

It's one of the staples of bad gameplay design, although an easy way to pad the game length.
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Um, no - it makes the game challenging, and has been a staple of great RPGs since time immemorial.
 
Yeah except you're confusing challenging with "cheap way to artificially increase difficulty". I think someone already said it but just because a game is harder doesn't mean it's better. And judging by all the people complaining about the spawning-out-of-nowhere monsters, it pretty much proves the point.
 
AceCR42 said:
Yeah except you're confusing challenging with "cheap way to artificially increase difficulty". I think someone already said it but just because a game is harder doesn't mean it's better. And judging by all the people complaining about the spawning-out-of-nowhere monsters, it pretty much proves the point.
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It only proves that just because the majority think that something is good, doesn't mean it is.
 
Difficulty and Challenge are two different things.

Difficulty can increase while Challenge continues to plateau, which seems to be the case with DA2 with the mob-spawning. Mind you, I've never played the game, I've seen it played, but I've never sat down with it for any considerable amount of time.
 
What is this? Me vs. the entire god damned forum? Come on, some of you guys who like this game need to man up, and start arguing against this nonsense. :mad:
 
WabeWalker said:
A bizarre post - you're arguing that 'tactics become meaningless' because enemies attack in waves?

WTF?

That's the very reason tactics ARE important! Huh?
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You've not raided in MMO's, I find it cheap and outdated most times.
 
Fail said:
He also has never played a decent game either.
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I'm positive he has, and enjoyed them.

Scripted spawning enemy waves just doesn't work in RPG's anymore, unless you entirely skipped raiding in MMO's and playing well planned RPG's. It just shows they didn't have enough time to balance each fight as well as they may have wanted to.

I kinda want to play the game, honestly, if only to show people how easy it can be with MMO tactics circa 2002. Well, when it hits under $25, I bet I will buy it and do an LP if time permits.

I can't comment on the overall quality of the game, but at least the graphics upgrade can't be denied. DA2 looks better on a technical level, the art isn't my favorite, but the game is a lot better looking.
 
I never really had any issues with the waves of mobs in da2 difficulty wise. I played as a melee rogue and kept 1 2h warrior, 1 damage/shield mage, and 1 full on healer/buffer mage. Not a huge deal.
 
WabeWalker said:
What is this? Me vs. the entire god damned forum? Come on, some of you guys who like this game need to man up, and start arguing against this nonsense. :mad:
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I'd argue, but I agree with them about the difficulty. The way DA2 deals with mobs and even bosses is terrible.
 
How in the name of god do you prevent your characters from being knocked back every two seconds?

I'm starting to get frustrated by this. I try to get Merril Lynch to use her Mind Blast ability, in order to remove the threat whenever it's on her, but so often she just gets knocked back, and eventually they get her. I usually can't even retreat her, because she's always recovering from a stagger.

I see that there's a ring for sale, which prevents the knock back from happening - and hey, it's only 80 gold! Why, if I start saving up now, I might be able to buy it in time for Christmas! Of 2014.
 
Guys, I have to warn you about something.

Just beware that this game might end up damaging your monitor... when you put your fist through it out of frustration.
 
WabeWalker said:
How in the name of god do you prevent your characters from being knocked back every two seconds?

I'm starting to get frustrated by this. I try to get Merril Lynch to use her Mind Blast ability, in order to remove the threat whenever it's on her, but so often she just gets knocked back, and eventually they get her. I usually can't even retreat her, because she's always recovering from a stagger.

I see that there's a ring for sale, which prevents the knock back from happening - and hey, it's only 80 gold! Why, if I start saving up now, I might be able to buy it in time for Christmas! Of 2014.
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Since Merril is a blood mage you don't really need to put any points into Willpower for mana. Also, you can't equip armor on her so there are no Willpower requirements to worry about. I'd pump up her constitution and give her Rock Armor. That should help with the knockdown problem.
 
Johnked6 said:
Since Merril is a blood mage you don't really need to put any points into Willpower for mana. Also, you can't equip armor on her so there are no Willpower requirements to worry about. I'd pump up her constitution and give her Rock Armor. That should help with the knockdown problem.
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What's a blood mage?
 
Domingo said:
Dragon Age 2 isn't as hard as DA1 was on the whole...at least to me DA1 revolved around having mages use sleep and cone of cold and if you didn't have/use those two spells some battles were borderline unwinnable. However if you did use those spells, the game was pretty easy from beginning to end. Playing without them, especially on hard and nightmare requires some insane micro-management of potions, friendly fire, and kiting.

DA2 is a cake walk 95% of the time. I just let the AI do it's thing and I don't even have any slots set-up beyond the defaults. However that other 5% involves battles that are pull-your-hair-out difficult and long. The ones where you're fighting a boss and hordes of minions/followers that keep showing up over and over and over tend to be a complete mess because you really have no way of knowing how many there will be or rationing your stamina intelligently.
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You're talking to wabe. He outright admitted to just using health pots all the time. Wee for him.
 
Wabe...what the hell...with all you've posted about DAO and DA2 how can you not know what a blood mage is? Please tell me you're kidding :p
 
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