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DLSS 5 - Generative AI

Mchart said:
I’d be fine with it if there were the option to just use it to enhance lighting without injecting AI slop to artwork, but that may not be possible.
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If you read into the information released already, the develeoper can apply masks and say this or that area should not be affected.
And again are you calling Capcom decsions on their own game for "A.I. slop"?
 
littlegreenmenfromhome said:
If you read into the information released already, the develeoper can apply masks and say this or that area should not be affected.
And again are you calling Capcom decsions on their own game for "A.I. slop"?
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Yes, the DLSS image of Grace is an AI slop Botox Hollywood entity. I don’t say person because real people don’t look like that, the before image looks closer to a real human than the AI modern art.
 
Mchart said:
Yes, the DLSS image of Grace is an AI slop Botox Hollywood entity. I don’t say person because real people don’t look like that, the before image looks closer to a real human than the AI modern art.
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Tell that to CapCom.

Meanwhile:
https://x.com/BethesdaStudios/status/2033668548342780059?s=20

1773753415094.png
 
Nvidia should be lobbying AMD and intel behind the scenes for more pcie lanes on AM6 and the intel board at the time to allow for a modern implementation of SLI. When this is finally good enough to be usable, the ai bubble will have calmed down and nvidia will be looking to sell more cards to gamers again.
 
Meeho said:
Agreed. It's the pinnacle of enshitification.

Shocking that resident Nvidia shills love it.
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The oooohhing and ahhhing was amusing. Shown on a display at a distance with little variation from very slow pans and conversations. The general look of the lighting looks like overblown contrast. Maybe they'll dial it in and it won't end up samey as Erek has mentioned but I'm not holding my breath.
 
This guy has a decent theory, that nvidia simply screwed up the presentation by trying to use HDR, to make the difference look bigger than it really is, but failing to tonemap properly:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1rvwube/dlss_5_fixing_it_in_post/

Manually tonemapped pictures for comparison here: https://slow.pics/s/vatet6Fp

This looks a lot more reasonable and closer to the source. Not to say it's perfect, I genuinely think they showcased this way too soon. This needs way more time in the oven.
 
madpistol said:
This feels like Nvidia’s first step towards real-time AI rendering; that feels like the ultimate goal.
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If I recall, wasn't this an endgame stated by NVidia itself at one point? Basically, read a game engines intent, but neural render the entire scene.

I actually find this new tech exciting and can't wait to try it. Would be awesome if it could be used in any modern game engine per the nvidia app.
 
Yeah, but AI engines have "context" issues. But, this could also be part of "the plan" where the only things with the capacity for full context are running in big datacenters.

"I have a bad feeling about this."
 
madpistol said:
This feels like Nvidia’s first step towards real-time AI rendering; that feels like the ultimate goal.
Click to expand...
As long as people understand it's not realism they want but faux realism which isn't the same thing.
 
Spontaneous, waxy looking Ai Slop-Faces.

Super.

It does seem to be a little better with environments though.
 
kac77 said:
As long as people understand it's not realism they want but faux realism which isn't the same thing.
Click to expand...

That's why we play games like Resident Evil where we *checks notes* shoot zombies, and not games like 'Do My Taxes, Then Take My Blood Pressure Medicine, Then Take the Garbage Out From the Garage to the Dump Simulator 2000™️'. But we want the zombies to look realistic when we're shooting them in Resident Evil 🙂
 
Niner said:
Well the post above that was referring to HUB and GN, but it basically applies to any tech YouTuber who does this.
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Or perhaps they are just reacting the same way most of us are.
This tech is trash.
If this is what they meant by neural rendering, F that noise. lol

We just got told for years that we need to calculate rays. That lighting needed to be modeled realistically. NOW they are going to say screw it we'll just use a database of lightmaps and use a weighted model TO GUESS which light map will look the most like instagram.

I mean put away all the talk of "AI" This isn't HAL 9000. There is NO AI here. This is just a weighted model looking at something and saying... Out door street scene. Cross referencing my collection of light maps. Yes yes this one is close. Apply light map.

This is a massive regression. Developers used to apply actual custom made hand crafted light maps to EVERY scene. It was called RASTER graphics. Deep Litter Super Sampling Five is terrible. Nvidia is really digging.
 
kram182 said:
That's AI/ML though.....
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Correct its not "ai". There isn't anything all that intelligent going on here. What NV is proposing here is just a dynamic light map loading system.
DLSS 5 is just a light map database.
We have come full circle and removed the artists completely from the formula.

All Nvidia had to do was spend 9 years convincing game publishers that hand crafting light maps was a waste of resources. Why not just use global illumination and let the hardware cast rays.

A decade later they come back to lightmaps > you just need to remove the artist and use a light map database.

The only unifying thread is NV continues to sell all of this to game publishers as easier, no need to hire as many people to make your games. To be fair maybe their is some artist uses for this tech? Maybe. I am quite sure the game developers/publishers that are excited about this are really thinking about the savings. For Nvidia... I mean isn't DLSS5 sort of an admission that Ray tracing was a waste of time?
 
ChadD said:
Or perhaps they are just reacting the same way most of us are.
This tech is trash.
If this is what they meant by neural rendering, F that noise. lol

We just got told for years that we need to calculate rays. That lighting needed to be modeled realistically. NOW they are going to say screw it we'll just use a database of lightmaps and use a weighted model TO GUESS which light map will look the most like instagram.

I mean put away all the talk of "AI" This isn't HAL 9000. There is NO AI here. This is just a weighted model looking at something and saying... Out door street scene. Cross referencing my collection of light maps. Yes yes this one is close. Apply light map.

This is a massive regression. Developers used to apply actual custom made hand crafted light maps to EVERY scene. It was called RASTER graphics. Deep Litter Super Sampling Five is terrible. Nvidia is really digging.
Click to expand...
I think most people are forgetting you can shut it off.
 
ChadD said:
We have come full circle and removed the artists completely from the formula.
Click to expand...

kram182 said:
Well good news then, the devs and artists will be the ones incorporating it into their games and adjusting the looks/parameters/output to what they think it should look like with it on.

Just make sure not to turn off DLSS5 or motion blur or chromatic aberration or something or you'll be ruining that 'dev/artistic intent' ☝️
Click to expand...
 
ChadD said:
We just got told for years that we need to calculate rays. That lighting needed to be modeled realistically. NOW they are going to say screw it we'll just use a database of lightmaps and use a weighted model TO GUESS which light map will look the most like instagram.
Click to expand...
nVidia knew it didn't have the computational power to do real time ray tracing never mind full scene ray tracing. I clearly remember quite a few of us stating that earlier. So it's been deploying "solutions" that average this or take the most of that, then AI comes along and puts on the finishing touches which was acceptable to a point. Now we're in totally fake land where we're changing lips, eyes and makeup according to nVidia's algorithm. So the whole point of ray tracing was? To recoup cost for hardware developed for other uses and create vendor lock-in. That's what ray tracing was and that's what AI is now.
 
Niner said:
I think most people are forgetting you can shut it off.
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For the moment. If this tech becomes a defacto type standard as standard DLSS has. Then any other graphics company will need to implement the same.
The result is developers not bothering to clean up a lot of things. Fast quick crap will be fine. Nvidia and others will add hooks for them to essentially prompt the lighting in their games.

After years of upscaling when is the last time we got a AAA game that was well optimized and could be played WITHOUT upscaling?
This tech if it's adopted in the same way will lead to a future where yes games with out these filters will look terrible.
I still say the only place this all leads is cloud gaming. Nvidia is maneuvering developers into a.... streamed version of his game is the only good looking version of this game. This is the path that leads to AAA titles being cloud only. This is the road.

Before this I was convinced that is how Nvidia saw RT. As a tech that they could eventually push to a point in games where their streamed versions looked better then 99% of what gamers could do local. Making their streaming option the best option. I now realize RT was really just a way to destroy the artistic merit of standard Raster rendering. There is a reason many 15 year old games still hold up on the visuals. This is Nvidias end game play. Right now they need 2 5090s to make this work. They want this out by the fall but can't do this with out $6k worth of consumer compute power right now. That is insane. They are praying for a lot of optimization... OR the real plan is to push streaming.
 
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kac77 said:
Now we're in totally fake land where we're changing lips, eyes and makeup according to nVidia's algorithm. So the whole point of ray tracing was?
Click to expand...

Literally still just lighting, learned by doing more and more advanced/accurate/etc lighting/techniques, no changing of models/textures/geometry/etc just lighting

1773774245324.png
 
kac77 said:
This is just lighting? The weird eyeballs?
View attachment 791962
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We'd have to see if the artifact is the actual model rendering the artifact, or the neural renderer rendering the artifact, neural renderer could be accurately rendering the model itself artifacting (not unheard of in Bethesda games of all games especially, or do you want me to go find you examples of that in those and other games from before Nvidia's AI/neural rendering demos?) And even with that, as touched upon, yes game artifacts exist, both before and after AI/neural rendering.
 
kram182 said:
We'd have to see if the artifact is the actual model rendering the artifact, or the neural renderer rendering the artifact, neural renderer could be accurately rendering the model itself artifacting (not unheard of in Bethesda games of all games especially, or do you want me to go find you examples of that in those and other games from before Nvidia's AI/neural rendering demos?) And even with that, as touched upon, yes game artifacts exist, both before and after AI/neural rendering.
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Those stone textures also had no geometry. Sorry not buying this is just a lighting filter.
I mean that isn't better anyway. Dynamic light maps, after being told for a decade that light maps are inferior. :)
 
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ChadD said:
Those stone textures also had no geometry. Sorry not buying this is just a lighting filter.
I mean that isn't better anyway. Dynamic light maps, after being told for a decade that light maps are inferior. :)
Click to expand...

1) you realize normal maps/height maps/parallax maps etc are all things that (in a fake manner) simulate geometry/lighting (from before AI/neural rendering) that this renderer 'interacts' with as well?

2) I guess you should just stop playing games altogether then, it's coming everywhere, even for AMD:

kram182 said:
Don't worry, AMD is working on their own version as well (DLSS will prob be the superior IQ option one though as with all the other things they had to play catch up with) with Microsoft/Sony supporting such things as well (Intel working on it too you can find references to)

View attachment 791949
View attachment 791950
View attachment 791951
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MavericK said:
Maybe, but despite using the same name, this is a completely different product/purpose.
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Yeah but ray reconstruction isn't super sampling either, it's clear by now and Nvidia has said so, 'DLSS' is just the branding for 'all things AI/neural' that they bring to games

Edit: And to be more specific, for the 'advanced'/'top tier' stuff - smooth motion for example uses AI/ML but doesn't fall under the DLSS branding like DLSS framegen.

Confusing and not the best branding/marketing, sure. But this is how they said they intend to do it 🤷
 
I, for one, am glad for all the >1 year old accounts vigorously defending this. Damn those AMD shills, pushing back against the obvious glory of DLSS5.
 
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