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DLSS 5 - Generative AI

Decko said:
This is GenAI slop infused into games, it's not just a lighting model.
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This all kinda reminds me of HFW. Apparently there was a patch that made Aloy's face look better, but they stated it was just some lighting tweaks not an actual remodel. They definitely fooled me because what I seen prior to playing compared to when I started playing it back in December had me saying there's no fricken way it's just some lighting adjustments. I'm still skeptical tbh.
 
Just lighting.... ok.
Jensen is going to have a hard time spin doctoring this tech.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...dlss-5-nvidia-ceo-responds-to-dlss-5-backlash

"The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI," Huang continued.

He added that developers can still "fine-tune the generative AI" to make it match their style, adding that DLSS 5 adds generative capability to the existing geometry of the game, but that it "doesn't change the artistic control."

"It’s not post-processing, it’s not post-processing at the frame level, it’s generative control at the geometry level," he said.
 
ChadD said:
Just lighting.... ok.
Jensen is going to have a hard time spin doctoring this tech.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...dlss-5-nvidia-ceo-responds-to-dlss-5-backlash

"The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI," Huang continued.

He added that developers can still "fine-tune the generative AI" to make it match their style, adding that DLSS 5 adds generative capability to the existing geometry of the game, but that it "doesn't change the artistic control."

"It’s not post-processing, it’s not post-processing at the frame level, it’s generative control at the geometry level," he said.
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Left out a part:

"All of that is in the control — direct control — of the game developer," he said. This is very different than generative AI; it’s content-control generative AI. That’s why we call it neural rendering."
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Yes, and I'm sure Nvidia won't be profitting by having the only game in town that can do this process, forcing gamers to use it or run the game in ugly unoptimized mode. Totally not why many are upset over this. We gamers are getting it all wrong according to leather jacket man. Buy our Nvidia spatulas for the true path to excellent cooking.
 
kram182 said:
Left out a part:
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I left it out on purpose cause its a big fat lie. :)

One the artists that make games rarely have control over everything once its published. The games owners (publishers) do. Secondly just cause you expose options in a API doesn't mean if the developers don't opt in your tech won't work.

Same is true with upscaling as we know it. The developers can optionally control inputs, add motion vectors. That hardly means the tech won't work if they do not. This sort of feels like... opt in and try and make it look least like shit as you can. It ain't a opt out.

I doubt their is a FLAG nvidia is adding that says. DO NOT import your AI slop filter on this. Its an optional, hook to give them "control".

Hey like RT maybe there are some artistic good uses for this tech. The vast majority of what happens with this will be slop. 100%.
 
Ranulfo said:
Yes, and I'm sure Nvidia won't be profitting by having the only game in town that can do this process, forcing gamers to use it or run the game in ugly unoptimized mode.
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It's the new "ultra" setting. How is that any different from other graphics tech when it was introduced? It's a good thing and advances graphics capabilities.
 
Ranulfo said:
Yes, and I'm sure Nvidia won't be profitting by having the only game in town that can do this process, forcing gamers to use it or run the game in ugly unoptimized mode. Totally not why many are upset over this. We gamers are getting it all wrong according to leather jacket man. Buy our Nvidia spatulas for the true path to excellent cooking.
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Who's forcing you to buy the game? Tell me, I'll stop them. But again, you can also just wait for the AMD alternative:
1773791347616.png


ChadD said:
One the artists that make games rarely have control over everything once its published. The games owners (publishers) do.
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So the artistic intentions everyone was crying about this ruining and needing protecting never really even existed before this?
 
kram182 said:
So the artistic intentions everyone was crying about this ruining and needing protecting never really even existed before this?
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There have been people complaining about things like RTX remix you just haven't been paying attention, and that wasn't forced into the next evolution of a standard tech presentation. Which love it or hate it DLSS and upscale in general have become. RTX remix also didn't re invent geometry with generative models.

In general in the past the new "ultra" mode simply allowed developers to not reduce the size of their assets. They developed the game at a higher quality then consumer hardware could really render. So if people on new hardware could now use the full resolution textures/models. Great. To be fair models did get some editions through technologies like Tessellation, though that tech was generally NOT in the hands of end users. Its not like you could flip tessellation on for games that never implemented it.

We will see how this stuff plays out. I don't think its going to go the way Jensen envisioned. Based on his comments today dealing with the backlash... he clearly was not prepared for any.

I agree that this is also the road AMD is planning to walk. I don't think its going to be any less rocky for them. Some people are going to be fine with this tech. Publishers are fine with it sure, the idea of saving millions on game budgets is fine with them obviously. I don't think the commercial prospects for this are as bright as Nvidia would hope. (and also I don't think they actually care) PC gaming is a side project at this point.
 
ChadD said:
RTX remix
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RTX remix is a modding platform.

Who's forcing you to download and play the mods?

Edit: I don't think Nvidia really cares about the backlash either (they're aware of the AI hate fad bandwagon, as we all are) either, because the game companies are already on board and gonna be the ones using it and giving it to you. Just don't buy their games that have it if you don't want it.
 
kram182 said:
Edit: I don't think Nvidia really cares about the backlash either (they're aware of the AI hate fad bandwagon, as we all are) either, because the game companies are already on board and gonna be the ones using it and giving it to you. Just don't buy their games that have it if you don't want it.
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That is what will happen yes. If the game industry wants to ride the bubble. We'll see where it goes I guess.
 
ChadD said:
No one that is my point... and yes there were complaints about defiling old games with it.
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Good thing you have the option of just not downloading it and playing the unmodded game then.

I'd call that a win/win 👍

Edit: Also RTX Remix does have generative AI for normal maps, parallax maps and PBR textures (asides other stuff) that can fake/affect look of geometry etc and actual geometry features like RTX Mega Geometry, just FYI (besides supporting exporting of models to tweak/improve/increase geometry then reimport etc).
 
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kram182 said:
Who's forcing you to buy the game? Tell me, I'll stop them.
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No one but you could go put a stop to those evil Bethesda and AMD guys who are denying dlss to starfield owners. Oh wait, Bethesda is friends with Nvidia now for God Rays 2.0, the face brightening.
 
Ranulfo said:
No one but you could go put a stop to those evil Bethesda and AMD guys who are denying dlss to starfield owners. Oh wait, Bethesda is friends with Nvidia now for God Rays 2.0, the face brightening.
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So that's why you're mad, because Bethesda stopped being AMD exclusive with features in Starfield and is now offering Nvidia features too? I thought people liked/advocated for having options? Again an option being there doesn't mean you have to use it, it's just available for the ones that do/want to. And if it is forced on you/not available to you, don't buy it. I'm still not seeing the issue TBH.
 
I'm sure it'll be a useful tool. Not it's not worth the price of everything being more expensive, and continuing to climb as they pump out more fancy math.

Also, "Grok, please enhance the lighting":
f2de6b12c58c5a6de9404f01f4b25f33e9aed9cf-1920x1080.jpg

image-9.jpg
 
GoldenTiger said:
That "artist" should learn what he's talking about. He's full of wrong claims and foolish misinformation in his replies.
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He worked at EA and now is at Gunfire ( Remnant, Darksiders, etc). I would tend to believe he knows more about how this would affect him than most.
 
kac77 said:
He worked at EA and now is at Gunfire ( Remnant, Darksiders, etc). I would tend to believe he knows more about how this would affect him than most.
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DLSS 5 is still gonna ship/be incorporated/show up in your games.
 
kram182 said:
So that's why you're mad, because Bethesda stopped being AMD exclusive with features in Starfield and is now offering Nvidia features too? I thought people liked/advocated for having options? Again an option being there doesn't mean you have to use it, it's just available for the ones that do/want to. And if it is forced on you/not available to you, don't buy it. I'm still not seeing the issue TBH.
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Hah, sorry I'll be more clear. It is sarcasm. I am "mad" aka pointing out the double standard that people seem to have no problem buying into the hardware exclusive game for over hyped transforms and lightings that cost more and more bucks to enjoy. Many Nvidia fans cried about Starfield before with no dlss and now I don't see any sympathy from them. I guess it isn't a conspiracy to hurt FSR/AMD users like it was before against the poor dlss fans.
 
Sycraft said:
Pretty much. Gamers decided nVidia is the bad guy, and AI is the bad guy and thus it must be hated before we have any sort of hands on with it.

You can also see how much of it is just "AI BAD!" shit by the hate here and on Reddit claiming that somehow this is to justify the investment in datacenters.
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Gamers decided nVidia is the good guy, and AI is the good guy and thus it must be loved even after we have multiple experiences with it.

You can also see how much of it is just "AI GOOD!" shit by the love here and on Reddit claiming that somehow this is about progress to justify their bad taste.
 
Ranulfo said:
Hah, sorry I'll be more clear. It is sarcasm. I am "mad" aka pointing out the double standard that people seem to have no problem buying into the hardware exclusive game for over hyped transforms and lightings that cost more and more bucks to enjoy. Many Nvidia fans cried about Starfield before with no dlss and now I don't see any sympathy from them. I guess it isn't a conspiracy to hurt FSR/AMD users like it was before against the poor dlss fans.
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Sympathy for what, Starfield already was an AMD exclusive game and thus has AMD features in it - AMD's DLSS 5 alternative isn't even out yet so how would that be incorporated?

1773804576158.png
 
Ranulfo said:
Hah, sorry I'll be more clear. It is sarcasm. I am "mad" aka pointing out the double standard that people seem to have no problem buying into the hardware exclusive game for over hyped transforms and lightings that cost more and more bucks to enjoy. Many Nvidia fans cried about Starfield before with no dlss and now I don't see any sympathy from them. I guess it isn't a conspiracy to hurt FSR/AMD users like it was before against the poor dlss fans.
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Honestly NOT being able to run this tech is a selling feature.

We have had reshade for years. Reshade doesn't make objects in motion disappear. Or Eye balls or T shirts (seriously look at the shirt on the EA sports soccer game they showed off)
Why do I need Deep Learning Super Slop? I can achieve this in older games with global illumination type reshade filters and I don't need a 5090 riding shot gun to do it. :)
 
Meeho said:
Gamers decided nVidia is the good guy, and AI is the good guy and thus it must be loved even after we have multiple experiences with it.

You can also see how much of it is just "AI GOOD!" shit by the love here and on Reddit claiming that somehow this is about progress to justify their bad taste.
Click to expand...

I'm saying you not liking a graphic feature/setting doesn't give you the right to keep it from the people who do like/want it - which seems to be the anti's stance/goal.
 
kram182 said:
"All of that is in the control — direct control — of the game developer," he said. This is very different than generative AI; it’s content-control generative AI. That’s why we call it neural rendering."
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'It's not shit, it's content-control shit that makes me money. That's why we call it meaningless buzzword no. 74"

Thank you, Jensen, for showing us the light.
 
kram182 said:
I'm saying you not liking a graphic feature/setting doesn't give you the right to keep it from the people who do like/want it - which seems to be the anti's stance/goal.
Click to expand...
On the contrary. I want them to get everything they want and all the consequences of their wishes. Same as the current state of AAA games. Gamers deserve all of it.
 
kram182 said:
Sympathy for what, Starfield already was an AMD exclusive game and thus has AMD features in it - AMD's DLSS 5 alternative isn't even out yet so how would that be incorporated?
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For the final time, I will attempt to explain it to you. I prefer hardware agnostic games, not black box favoring games that often fall apart from lack of support 5-10 years later. I'm not a fan of AI upscaling to cover for sloppy programming or bad engines. Many people cried three years ago about Starfield being AMD sponsored and not having official dlss support. Most nvidia fans/users dont cry or care when AMD loses out (cyberpunk) so why should anyone take them seriously that AMD got a "win". Bethesda went with Nvidia with Fallout4 and god rays tech and now are back with team green. Whoopee. Sponsored tech in games has been around forever. I'm sure AMD and maybe Intel will bring out their version and we'll have more battles over which is better (the one with dedicated hardware probably will win). Oh, and higher prices for AI face filters and tweaked lighting that may make a game worse. The futures' so bright, I gotta re-shade the path traced rays!
 
So you're just mad Bethesda is working with Nvidia at all, got it 👍

Ranulfo said:
I'm not a fan of AI upscaling to cover for sloppy programming or bad engines.
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Yeah, as pointed out before, dunno if you saw it, you're kinda screwed anyway then no matter what HW vendor you go with or what platform you decide to play on

1773807273540.png

1773807287004.png

1773807302499.png
 
In this image we see AI struggle to maintain the contours of the ball. Lighting is the least of the issues. It barely looks like a ball. You can also see AI struggle to maintain what's behind the ball as it struggles to maintain the image of the ball itself.
1773810155878.png
 
kac77 said:
In this image we see AI struggle to maintain the contours of the ball. Lighting is the least of the issues. It barely looks like a ball. You can also see AI struggle to maintain what's behind the ball as it struggles to maintain the image of the ball itself.
View attachment 792083
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The ball... and this NPCs mid section.
 
I can see the MBA's that run these development houses and publishers being all in on what is probably being sold to them by Nvidia as a cost cutting technology allowing them to fire large parts of development teams. Especially Microsoft which has huge investments in the sector so it would be almost guaranteed that MS will use this (maybe this is what FSR Diamond is).

As to how this will improve games we'll have to wait and see. Sure it will be a new way to make slop, but current AAA games from the last 10 years have increasingly become slop, so what's the difference. It's an interesting new technology that can be misused or used to make things look better or worse. In the demonstration, a lot of the examples were way over the top of what is should be used for, but that doesn't mean the technology itself is bad. They were just using the marketing tactic electronics stores use to sell TV's, turning the colours and brightness up to 200% to sell a product to the lowest common denominator. (Of course in some of the examples they purposefully used the lowest settings in the DLSS off image to make DLSS 5 look good).
 
FrgMstr said:
Y'all do realize that the games shown are supported by the game devs? NV is not doing anything without the devs signing off. NV is "doing" this to any game dev that does not want it from what I can read up on currently.

Availability & Game Developer Support​

DLSS 5 will be supported by the industry’s biggest publishers and game developers, including Bethesda, CAPCOM, Hotta Studio, NetEase, NCSOFT, S-GAME, Tencent, Ubisoft and Warner Bros. Games.

Written statements from all of those companies here.
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Not very nice to come with facts, when the "faux anger" lemming train is going full steam, full retard.
 
DrezKill said:
View attachment 792100
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I think if they hadn’t gone the bright neon light approach to the demo more people would have liked it. And I can see it being good if used correctly. But if the last 10+ years of AAA studio management decisions (and financial health) is anything to go by it won’t be used correctly. I’d love to be wrong, but I’m still waiting for more studios to clear out all the middle managers and finance bros steering their ships into the rocks.
 
I can't really understand why this has become so controversial?

First of all I'm sure you can decide for yourself if you want to use it, and I think it looks like a notable improvement in many cases.
And when you buy a game you buy a product, the artists behind it are hired by a developer to create a product for sale, so why should they complain about their "artistic vision" being compromised after the customer has paid for it?
Do car designers cry if you change the wheels or repaint your own car, thus destroying the design they have worked so hard to accomplish?

Nexus is full of thousands of mods that change the precious "artistic vision", from texture upgrades to new models, sexuality and lightning and sound upgrades, so is the use of machine learning what makes this somehow fundamentally different?

If you prefer Bethestas moon faced NPC's, then stick with their artistic vision, not matter how limited it may have been by the technology available at the games release.

If you think DLSS 5 is an upgrade, then use it.
 
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