Did AMD "kill" their enthusiast crowd...???

buttons said:
Apparently the I3 is also a lot faster then an overclocked i7 2600k. Ive seen plenty of benchmarks where the 8150 beats the 2600k but if your someone that likes to game 1024x768 with the settings on low , then yeah , i guess intel is for you.
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Aside from cherry picked benchmarks, I would love to see some titles where BD ever beats i7 by more than 3 whole fps.

Not sure why you would think an i3 is a lot faster than an i7, unless you are talking about in games, in which case, not sure why you would think an i3 is a lot faster than an i7.

Honestly, I don't think you really know what you are talking about.
 
I was looking forward to bulldozer but delay after delay made loose faith in AMD and I jumped on the intel bandwagon.

Looks like it was a good choice. AMD has pretty much killed the enthusiast market once they released the Phenom line of CPUs.

I'm still supporting the GPU side of things. But I can't see an AMD chip being in my main rig anytime soon.
 
ROLF, are you being sarcastic sarcastic?
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No. Most games available today are designed for 1 to 3 cores. The i3 is a 2 core 4 threaded processor based on the SB architecture which has around a 30 to 50% IPC advantage over BD depending on the application. At 3.1GHz this basically requires any BD chip to be overclocked to match a SB i3 (or above) at stock. BD will win at games that make good use of 4 threads or more like BF3.
 
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Weren't P4's slower than P3's at launch due to the new "improvements"? Perhaps the BD just needs to ramp up it's clock speed to gain the advantage... I'm not going with BD if I skip out on Intel, I'll go Phenom II. But, couldn't this be a similar situation (and yes, Intel got reamed for that launch).
 
Ur_Mom said:
Weren't P4's slower than P3's at launch due to the new "improvements"? Perhaps the BD just needs to ramp up it's clock speed to gain the advantage... I'm not going with BD if I skip out on Intel, I'll go Phenom II. But, couldn't this be a similar situation (and yes, Intel got reamed for that launch).
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BD does better than the P4's originally did. The P4's were smacked around by their predecessors but the BD's perform about as well or slightly better than Thubans. Clock speed increase is the last thing they need. Take a look at the power consumption figures and you'll see why.
 
drescherjm said:
No. Most games available today are designed for 1 to 3 cores. The i3 is a 2 core 4 threaded processor based on the SB architecture which has around a 30 to 50% IPC advantage over BD depending on the application. At 3.1GHz this basically requires any BD chip to be overclocked to match a SB i3 (or above) at stock. BD will win at games that make good use of 4 threads or more like BF3.
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Exactly, if games could take full advantage of BD, they might actually be worth it.
But games that do are few and far between.
 
Its kinda sad.... but i will always support AMD. Once they are gone Intel will just tell us to bend over
 
cloudpost said:
Its kinda sad.... but i will always support AMD. Once they are gone Intel will just tell us to bend over
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Only in the beginning, but Intel isn't the only CPU manufacturer/developer on the market.

Everyone seems to forget about ARM processors and their many variants.
Intel may be the king of x86 if AMD dies, but what's the point if x86 is outshot by ARM and RISC takes over?

I know this is theoretical and purely my opinion at the moment, but make sure to not forget about ARM processors and the market share they could potentially take over after AMD's downfall.
 
Answer to topic "NO"!

BD is fine for gaming, no problems here and way better then the Intel setup I had before (OC Q6600). BD is totally an enthusiast type chip, you have to push it and push it hard but once you do it performs rather well for the price. I recommend BD for those who really know how to tweak, cool and supply the needed juice. For others go with the BlueBoy solution Intel. Hopefully Pile driver will improve upon BD and so far it looks like it will be compatible with the AM3+ motherboards.

The Radeon HD 7970 speaks loudly of being an ultra enthusiast gaming card which, well AMD is producing.

What makes an enthusiast? It has nothing to do if you have a wade of hundred dollar bills coming out of your pockets and having the newest fad coming out. It is an attitude to push hardware where it has never gone before, not pimped out, color coordinated systems with mega bucks put into it. Taking two used 6950's, unlocking the extra shaders, coming up with a custom cooling system (self made even), AMD or Intel Quad core in a beat up case, 3 ancient CRT monitors and pushing the system faster then most high buck want of be think so enthusiast's ghetto rigs. Getting performance pennies on the dollar compared to others. An enthusiast is not connected to any one brand, not connected to some sort of worship of a given company and waste hours on threads proclaiming the virtues of Intel, Nvidia . . everyone else sucks etc. (those are actually the losers who can never get their rigs remotely fast or stable or just buy pre or mostly built high price rigs, copy catters at best).
 
noko said:
Answer to topic "NO"!

BD is fine for gaming, no problems here and way better then the Intel setup I had before (OC Q6600). BD is totally an enthusiast type chip, you have to push it and push it hard but once you do it performs rather well for the price. I recommend BD for those who really know how to tweak, cool and supply the needed juice. For others go with the BlueBoy solution Intel. Hopefully Pile driver will improve upon BD and so far it looks like it will be compatible with the AM3+ motherboards.

The Radeon HD 7970 speaks loudly of being an ultra enthusiast gaming card which, well AMD is producing.

What makes an enthusiast? It has nothing to do if you have a wade of hundred dollar bills coming out of your pockets and having the newest fad coming out. It is an attitude to push hardware where it has never gone before, not pimped out, color coordinated systems with mega bucks put into it. Taking two used 6950's, unlocking the extra shaders, coming up with a custom cooling system (self made even), AMD or Intel Quad core in a beat up case, 3 ancient CRT monitors and pushing the system faster then most high buck want of be think so enthusiast's ghetto rigs. Getting performance pennies on the dollar compared to others. An enthusiast is not connected to any one brand, not connected to some sort of worship of a given company and waste hours on threads proclaiming the virtues of Intel, Nvidia . . everyone else sucks etc. (those are actually the losers who can never get their rigs remotely fast or stable or just buy pre or mostly built high price rigs, copy catters at best).
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Oh ya all the enthusiasts use ancient CRTs dey the best
 
Red Falcon said:
Only in the beginning, but Intel isn't the only CPU manufacturer/developer on the market.

Everyone seems to forget about ARM processors and their many variants.
Intel may be the king of x86 if AMD dies, but what's the point if x86 is outshot by ARM and RISC takes over?

I know this is theoretical and purely my opinion at the moment, but make sure to not forget about ARM processors and the market share they could potentially take over after AMD's downfall.
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It's a damn shame that windows 7 dosen't run on arm.
 
noko said:
Answer to topic "NO"!

BD is fine for gaming, no problems here and way better then the Intel setup I had before (OC Q6600). BD is totally an enthusiast type chip, you have to push it and push it hard but once you do it performs rather well for the price. I recommend BD for those who really know how to tweak, cool and supply the needed juice. For others go with the BlueBoy solution Intel. Hopefully Pile driver will improve upon BD and so far it looks like it will be compatible with the AM3+ motherboards.

The Radeon HD 7970 speaks loudly of being an ultra enthusiast gaming card which, well AMD is producing.

What makes an enthusiast? It has nothing to do if you have a wade of hundred dollar bills coming out of your pockets and having the newest fad coming out. It is an attitude to push hardware where it has never gone before, not pimped out, color coordinated systems with mega bucks put into it. Taking two used 6950's, unlocking the extra shaders, coming up with a custom cooling system (self made even), AMD or Intel Quad core in a beat up case, 3 ancient CRT monitors and pushing the system faster then most high buck want of be think so enthusiast's ghetto rigs. Getting performance pennies on the dollar compared to others. An enthusiast is not connected to any one brand, not connected to some sort of worship of a given company and waste hours on threads proclaiming the virtues of Intel, Nvidia . . everyone else sucks etc. (those are actually the losers who can never get their rigs remotely fast or stable or just buy pre or mostly built high price rigs, copy catters at best).
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I agree with this. I mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with constant upgrading and having the newest stuff. I'd upgrade processors and GPU's every time a new one came out if I could afford it. But you can be a broke ass bitch and still be [H]ard. I considered myself an enthusiast when I had my $50 Athlon X2 7850 and overclocking the shit out of it when everybody on here had i7-920's.

Now that doesn't mean that you can still be rocking a Pentium 4 at stock clocks and consider yourself end enthusiast. You've gotta at least try. :D
 
noko said:
Answer to topic "NO"!

BD is fine for gaming, no problems here and way better then the Intel setup I had before (OC Q6600). BD is totally an enthusiast type chip, you have to push it and push it hard but once you do it performs rather well for the price. I recommend BD for those who really know how to tweak, cool and supply the needed juice. For others go with the BlueBoy solution Intel. Hopefully Pile driver will improve upon BD and so far it looks like it will be compatible with the AM3+ motherboards.

The Radeon HD 7970 speaks loudly of being an ultra enthusiast gaming card which, well AMD is producing.

What makes an enthusiast? It has nothing to do if you have a wade of hundred dollar bills coming out of your pockets and having the newest fad coming out. It is an attitude to push hardware where it has never gone before, not pimped out, color coordinated systems with mega bucks put into it. Taking two used 6950's, unlocking the extra shaders, coming up with a custom cooling system (self made even), AMD or Intel Quad core in a beat up case, 3 ancient CRT monitors and pushing the system faster then most high buck want of be think so enthusiast's ghetto rigs. Getting performance pennies on the dollar compared to others. An enthusiast is not connected to any one brand, not connected to some sort of worship of a given company and waste hours on threads proclaiming the virtues of Intel, Nvidia . . everyone else sucks etc. (those are actually the losers who can never get their rigs remotely fast or stable or just buy pre or mostly built high price rigs, copy catters at best).
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Few things...

AMD has been producing awesome graphics cards for awesome prices and these are targeted at the enthusiast crowd. As far as GPUs are concerned, I'd much rather buy an AMD video card than an nvidia one because of price-to-performance, lower power draw, and eyefinity off a single card.

Piledriver is the name for the revised Bulldozer design, not for the AM3+ platform. Trinity (the APU) is carrying Piledriver cores and should be here 1H 2012, so it looks like they've pushed that back yet again. Vishera is the name for the AM3+ enthusiast chip that will carry the Piledriver cores. Still no official word on whether Trinity can be tossed into FM1 or requires FM2 to work. Trinity does look like it has potential, but the APU area where graphics are concerned, AMD has already had the lead from bottom to top.

You shouldn't recommend BD for those looking to tweak, as they can get the same via any unlocked Phenom or Sandy. Just because you like to tweak doesn't mean you should favor Bulldozer. BD isn't a failed architecture, just a poor one overall that works in some places. If you're gaming you should skip it and buy a 2500K (that can be tweaked too, btw). If you're doing a lot of AES encryption, x264 media work, zipping/unzipping or virtual machines that requires lots of cache and integer cores, it makes sense. The fact is, many enthusiasts don't use their machines in this way.

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Clearly there's areas where it works, but to recommend it for enthusiasts? Other than to play with if they're curious, there's no reason for your average enthusiast who doesn't care much for the 2 benchmarks above to buy it. It's things like these that usually weigh in the most when purchasing a CPU, and BD quite simply falls flat on its face.
 
pelo said:
Few things...

AMD has been producing awesome graphics cards for awesome prices and these are targeted at the enthusiast crowd. As far as GPUs are concerned, I'd much rather buy an AMD video card than an nvidia one because of price-to-performance, lower power draw, and eyefinity off a single card.

Piledriver is the name for the revised Bulldozer design, not for the AM3+ platform. Trinity (the APU) is carrying Piledriver cores and should be here 1H 2012, so it looks like they've pushed that back yet again. Vishera is the name for the AM3+ enthusiast chip that will carry the Piledriver cores. Still no official word on whether Trinity can be tossed into FM1 or requires FM2 to work. Trinity does look like it has potential, but the APU area where graphics are concerned, AMD has already had the lead from bottom to top.

You shouldn't recommend BD for those looking to tweak, as they can get the same via any unlocked Phenom or Sandy. Just because you like to tweak doesn't mean you should favor Bulldozer. BD isn't a failed architecture, just a poor one overall that works in some places. If you're gaming you should skip it and buy a 2500K (that can be tweaked too, btw). If you're doing a lot of AES encryption, x264 media work, zipping/unzipping or virtual machines that requires lots of cache and integer cores, it makes sense. The fact is, many enthusiasts don't use their machines in this way.

Clearly there's areas where it works, but to recommend it for enthusiasts? Other than to play with if they're curious, there's no reason for your average enthusiast who doesn't care much for the 2 benchmarks above to buy it. It's things like these that usually weigh in the most when purchasing a CPU, and BD quite simply falls flat on its face. [/URL]
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Bro, seriously give up. You are relentless with your boasting of Intel. Every time someone posts something they like about BD, here you are in your blue shining armor showing up to save the day and attempt to correct, sterilize, and covert them like its your fucking religion.
 
jreinlie4 said:
Bro, seriously give up. You are relentless with your boasting of Intel. Every time someone post something they like about BD, here you are in your blue shining armor showing up to save the day.
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If you wanna keep this site accurate, it certainly makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, we could potentially go by worthless benchmarks that don't provide much of anything in comparison and are therefore useless or by people's "feel." People come to [H] to read facts and factual opinions, not people's fruitless opinions.

I told you, i'm typing this from a Phenom II quad and an 5870 with a 6850 and a 5750 sitting next to me. I love AMD, I just hate Bulldozer. What I dislike even more than Bulldozer is people claiming Bulldozer is great, because it gives AMD an excuse to screw up again.
 
Your not doing anybody any favors citing the research of other more qualified people. You want to make things help make things accurate? Do your own research, test FX, test SB. Then you know whats accurate and you can reach your OWN conclusion. When you finally do that, then you can parade around the forums pointing your finger at benchmarks and continue fighting a battle that was already won before you even showed up to the party.
 
Other people have done that, including the guys here at [H]. If you want to refute what they're saying, or what Anand has said, or the guy's at Extremetech have said, or techreport, or arstechnica, or nearly anyone with a popular site who knows what they're talking about then I'd love to hear it. Claiming that i'm citing qualified people doesn't do anything for your own argument, it actually enhances mine :/

Secondly, benchmarking sites and review sites are there so I don't have to waste money for an underperforming processor in order to find out it sucks. The dudes here and elsewhere have done that for me and have shown me it's not worth the money. Certainly helps, doesn't it?
 
MacLeod said:
I agree with this. I mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with constant upgrading and having the newest stuff. I'd upgrade processors and GPU's every time a new one came out if I could afford it. But you can be a broke ass bitch and still be [H]ard. I considered myself an enthusiast when I had my $50 Athlon X2 7850 and overclocking the shit out of it when everybody on here had i7-920's.

Now that doesn't mean that you can still be rocking a Pentium 4 at stock clocks and consider yourself end enthusiast. You've gotta at least try. :D
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I used to upgrade my CPU every 6-8 months at one point. When an extra 33mhz could make all the difference. Now I go 2-3 years between upgrades. Thats how far we've come and generally how moribund it is.

I now see supposedly being [H] as more a moniker of "look how much cash I have to spend/waste/invest!" rather than actually needing that extra power.

I've always felt the real hardcore PC gamer was the hard up chap pushing his old dual core/8600GT rig to the max to try to get the best he can.

A lot of these top end rigs and what they are used for seem more like the sunday motor bike riders you only see on sunny days in their expensive all in one leathers.
 
Weeth said:
The most disappointing product released by the most boneheaded marketing effort in recent CPU history (as bad as Barcelona... or maybe even worse). Everybody who lost their jobs deserves to be slinging burgers for a living. They would have been better off formally announcing WE SUCK and walking away from the high end CPU business than releasing this silicon turd.
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Tone it down a notch jeeeez. And only the top of the line BD CPUs are even considered "High end" the most expensive being ~$275 and still compatible with $100 mobos and offering great value as a platform. While there may some mistakes and over hyping of the product it still has it's place in the market and in the enthusiast community. Seeing close to 5GHz passes on air on an 8 core CPU? That is nothing to scoff at especially being their 1st generation of silicon using 32nm tech vs Intel's 2nd/3rd depending on how you look at it ( Nehalem, Westmere, and Sandy Bridge). AMD is also doing very well in the graphics department while at the same time trying to compete with chipzilla who has like 10 times the resources and their own fabs (is this true? I'm not entirely sure).

Being completely objective anyone should see that AMD is at least trying to innovate in their own way and move forward in technology.
 
Red Falcon said:
Exactly, if games could take full advantage of BD, they might actually be worth it.
But games that do are few and far between.
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That's the problem imo with AMD, they made a cpu that was even ready for the games out right now. Just BF3 even then it's not much better.

Even in 2 years when there are more games to take advangtage of all the cores, we'll all have even more optimized hardware. AMD did something wrong no denying that guys.
 
iplayCS said:
That's the problem imo with AMD, they made a cpu that was even ready for the games out right now. Just BF3 even then it's not much better.

Even in 2 years when there are more games to take advangtage of all the cores, we'll all have even more optimized hardware. AMD did something wrong no denying that guys.
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Where they do succeed and are increasing market share is in the HPC and enterprise sectors.

The BD micro-architecture will do wonders for those areas, mainly because of low-cost core-count processors and high scalability.

AMD does have applications, just not in the gaming market.
 
Red Falcon said:
Where they do succeed and are increasing market share is in the HPC and enterprise sectors.

The BD micro-architecture will do wonders for those areas, mainly because of low-cost core-count processors and high scalability.

AMD does have applications, just not in the gaming market.
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But the problem is that the gaming market is the most profitable one of home consumers, since the gamers are those more likely to do regular upgrades. In the past AMD was counterbalancing Intel by selling considerably cheaper. So a gamer on a tight budget would go AMD. Now, they 've lost the absolute performance gamer to Intel and they 're losing also the budget gamer. Probably AMD has still a small price edge on motherboards (although not 100% sure, because i don't follow Intel's motherboards evolution), but that's it.

For mum, dad, any CPU will do and be good for years. My older Athlon x4 605e can download at 20mbps, encode at 720p, unzip a huge file, check the mail, browse the internet and play 720p movie at the same time without stuttering at all. That's more than what mum and dad will ever do with the PC. So you won't get much money from them, because they don't upgrade often. The gamer on the other side... has a severe "upgraditis". :D

P.S.: Enterprises (as well as home consumers) in Europe will seek more and more energy efficient solutions, as costs of electricity will keep rising. Intel beats there AMD too. Heck, now all electric appliances get "energy rating" and you pay a premium for "A+" instead of "A", just because it will save you on the electricity bill later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_energy_label
 
Faethon said:
My older Athlon x4 605e can download at 20mbps, encode at 720p, unzip a huge file, check the mail, and browse the internet
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So what? My Intel Atom can do all of that too with 4 times lower power consumption.
 
ZodaEX said:
So what? My Intel Atom can do all of that too with 4 times lower power consumption.
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I think you're missing his point... It doesn't matter that your Atom will do what his old Athlon quad does. It's the point that even that old processor is more than enough power to have lasted his parents then, now and into the future. Thus negating any reason to upgrade...

His point on what his old Athlon will do for his parents isn't some kind of cpu war...
 
Historically AMD has never been able to compete with Intel on the high end. The only reason they were beating Intel in the early 00's was because they acquired fantastic technology and talent from the DEC Alpha implosion. Former DEC employees designed both the K7 and K8 which were AMD's only really successful enthusiast parts. They've been pretty much coasting since the clawhammer days.

Nowadays they don't even hand tune their processors anymore, which is like an assembly programmer giving up and using a compiler instead. What a sad company.
 
aeroportspwn said:
At least AMD is doing a pretty good job with the latest video cards they have released lol.
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Yeah, it's a good thing they've been so successful within the GPU arena (across all spectrums. Great cost/performance ratio, as well as power consumption) because they really seem to have gotten lost within the Enthusiast CPU maze.
 
mzs_biteme said:
I'd agree with that.... Then again, we're still here and he's most likely looking for a job after all the layoffs AMD has done lately....:eek:
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Nope, afaik he's still there. Great marketing, telling gamers and the average high end desktop user that your business isn't that important to their company. I've got no problem buying your competitors much faster product anyways.
 
xTrident said:
I think you're missing his point... It doesn't matter that your Atom will do what his old Athlon quad does. It's the point that even that old processor is more than enough power to have lasted his parents then, now and into the future. Thus negating any reason to upgrade...

His point on what his old Athlon will do for his parents isn't some kind of cpu war...
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Exactly. Thank you.

BababooeyHTJ said:
JF-AMD said that you guys just aren't that important anyways.
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Ah, yes, i remember JF-AMD. Honestly, i think that this is the wrong mentality. I am not a gamer anymore (if it wasn't for my video encoding, i could still be running my older 5050e and be happy), but i do see that gamers are the most important home consumer target. Not to mention that usually they are tech geeks who are asked for advice from others and build rigs for parents and friends too. I just don't understand the mentality of trying to sell to the home consumer, but on the other hand say "oh, you are not so important". Then why try to sell at all? Either concentrate exclusively to satisfy the server market or if you want to go after the home consumer too, why not try to increase your share of the market? I mean, what's the point of partecipating in a specific market if you don't really care to compete??? How is it a healthy mentality to say "oh yeah, we try to sell to you, but we don't really care about you". In my mind, this is something that will only bring damage to you as long as you stay in this market. Damage to your reputation, loss of potential profit and possibly damage to your balance sheets. It's like being a pro athlete that signs in for a big event with tv coverage and all and once there say "Oh, i don't really care if i end last, i came here to lose, it's ok, because i care more about another event next month, where i expect to lose too, but not as badly as in this one". That's not "pro" mentality, that's a loser mentality.

And mind you, i 've never bought Intel and i really root for AMD and today i expect my AM3+ board to arrive, but i really can't understand how they could mess up so badly.
 
xTrident said:
It doesn't matter that your Atom will do what his old Athlon quad does. It's the point that even that old processor is more than enough power to have lasted his parents then, now and into the future.

His point on what his old Athlon will do for his parents isn't some kind of cpu war...
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And my point was that my atom is even older (and less powerful) than his Athlon II and can still do all these things.
 
ZodaEX said:
And my point was that my atom is even older (and less powerful) than his Athlon II and can still do all these things.
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But who cares? You only quoted a tiny portion of what he said and added something to it that really had nothing to do with what his point of it all was.

I'm glad your Atom does all that for you using less power.
 
While all this talk about Bulldozer gives us something to do, to speculate over, have a little fun with, the truth is, at the end of the day, none of it matters. AMD simply does not have the engineers or the resources to complete with Intel. I could be wrong but seriously doubt that I am when I say that, we will never ever again see anything from AMD that will perform anywhere close to an Intel part. MY advice is this. Aside from being given an AMD cpu / mobo, or winning an AMD cpu / mobo in a contest or just simply already owning an AMD cpu / mobo right now, there is zero reason from a performance point of view and a cost point of view to buying and owning an AMD system. Period. Those are cold hard facts but still true nonetheless. Now, if you have a young son or daughter in the house, or a parent or grand parent who are computer illiterate, sure I could see giving them an AMD cpu / mobo. My girlfriend needed an AM3 board for a cpu she bought off-line very inexpensively. We were in Kansas City and stopped at a few of the smaller computer part shops. I was shocked to find out the owners no longer even carried new AMD cpu's or mobo's. They did have some used stuff but that was about it. I asked the guys why and was just shrugged off the told, no demand. No one has asked for Bulldozer at all so I don't carry them. AMD is basically a special order for us and for other shops, but we can still get them. No one wants to spend the same money for less performance is what he and and so did the tech standing next to him as well. I guess they have a point. There is a cancer growing inside AMD now, it's cost a lot of people their jobs. The future is very cloudy for them. I guess AMD is now saying they want to focus on mobile cpu's? Who knows. I do worry that AMD's cancer will spread to ATI ( aka AMD ) and they will interfere with the video card division, in ways that ruin their ability to put out good products. Cancer spreads. I'm hoping for the best. One thing I know for a fact and in my heart. I will never again have an AMD cpu or motherboard in my system. Not that I don't want to. Just, well, AMD is not the AMD they used to be. Hell, just recently, I saw here in the HardOCP forums that 23 people were in the AMD cpu forums while Intel had 250+ in their forums. So sad.
 
SixFootDuo said:
.......We were in Kansas City and stopped at a few of the smaller computer part shops..........
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Sorry for off-topic, but what other stores in KC area carry computer components at a reasonable price, other than the MC in OP?
 
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SixFootDuo said:
Aside from being given an AMD cpu / mobo, or winning an AMD cpu / mobo in a contest or just simply already owning an AMD cpu / mobo right now, there is zero reason from a performance point of view and a cost point of view to buying and owning an AMD system.
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That's not true at all. Infact we NEED AMD to succeed. If they don't we're all screwed. If they don't start competing there will be only one source at all for processors. Not good for us. We need the competition. We all need AMD to succeed.

That being said... You're right. They don't compete. You're right. At this point they're continuing to call behind. But we're not talking about a difference in performance which is beyond unreasonable. Yet. IMO they're still a viable option for people who want bang for their buck. We can't get in the mentality that they're not even an option or we're all screwed.
 
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