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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

cageymaru said:
Probably needs... A driver from AMD and Nvidia like all releases nowadays. :)

DX12 is dead in this game until 9/5
Click to expand...

Cause this looks like two weeks' work .

The only way the DX11 -> DX12 transition could be any worse is if the machine spontaneously combusted
 
Ieldra said:
Cause this looks like two weeks' work .

The only way the DX11 -> DX12 transition could be any worse is if the machine spontaneously combusted
Click to expand...

We don't know how old the build of DX12 in the finished game is. It could be a month or more old. We also don't know exactly what is causing the issue or how many people they have working on it. It could still be a mess in two weeks, they could say it's going to be delayed further, or it could end up just fine. It all depends on what needs fixing and how long it takes to fix. It's silly to assume that they the two weeks from launch is the only time they've been working on it. Considering DX12 is even enabled in the review copies that speaks to the delay likely being last minute so they've been working on it since before that delay happened.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
Graphics quality and framerate:

Click to expand...


Looks to me like Shadow quality is going to be a huge FPS hit for some reason.

This seems to happen with a lot of games nowadays and I don't understand it. Why is it so hard to render decent shadows at a decent framerate?
 
MavericK said:
Looks to me like Shadow quality is going to be a huge FPS hit for some reason.

This seems to happen with a lot of games nowadays and I don't understand it. Why is it so hard to render decent shadows at a decent framerate?
Click to expand...

This might be the reason, well shadows specially softshadow increasing resolution of those, impacts performance greatly as they tend to be ALU heavy, and if not programmed right, concurrent execution will break down......

This is what Doom did very well they ensured their shadows ran asynchronously and it helped their performance greatly.

Just remember shadows have always been done with raytracing algos, even back in the day, to get softer edges the more rays must be cast, which in turn hits the shader array harder. And also the rendering pipeline being used, if its a forwarder render, it is harder to do things in one pass vs a deferred renderer like shadows. There is also vram implications of this as well and bandwidth.
 
razor1 said:
What the hell is the limiting factor in this game, it ain't shaders going by the resolution changes... All cards are equalizing out. And it ain't CPU lol. Just looks to be a hot mess.
Click to expand...

Indeed, it's a convenient hot mess as well because I was just talking about it yesterday lol. So much for the year of DX12, maybe next year
 
MavericK said:
Looks to me like Shadow quality is going to be a huge FPS hit for some reason.

This seems to happen with a lot of games nowadays and I don't understand it. Why is it so hard to render decent shadows at a decent framerate?
Click to expand...

Dynamic soft shadows have always been pretty expensive as far back as I can remember.
 
I hope it is using the same shadow and lighting effects in Quantum Break. They are awesome in that game!
 
MavericK said:
Didn't that game also run like shit, though?
Click to expand...

Well depends on if you have AMD or Nvidia. It is really demanding on a video card due to the killer lighting effects. It is DX12 also.

Here is a comparison between a GTX 1080 and crossfire RX 480 @1440p Ultra with the scaling off.


 
cageymaru said:
Well depends on if you have AMD or Nvidia. It is really demanding on a video card due to the killer lighting effects. It is DX12 also.

Here is a comparison between a GTX 1080 and crossfire RX 480 @1440p Ultra with the scaling off.


Click to expand...


I wonder if the DX11/Steam version will perform any better.
 
Deus Ex Mankind Divided - Erste Benchmarks und Performance-Eindrücke - DX12 strauchelt

In addition, it is the amount of video memory to be considered, because 4 GiByte be short of our trial already in Full HD. Due to the already high demands on graphics card and memory, we advise the time being on MSAA, as this gives 8-GiByte graphics card may be considered as a minimum; even the 12 GiByte a (GTX) Titanium X can be filled.

Lulz. I hope this stays in the testing suite. Crazy demanding!
 
cageymaru said:
Well depends on if you have AMD or Nvidia. It is really demanding on a video card due to the killer lighting effects. It is DX12 also.

Here is a comparison between a GTX 1080 and crossfire RX 480 @1440p Ultra with the scaling off.


Click to expand...


Does it? I thought it was unplayable on both. Remind me which card can run at this at 1440p
 
Ieldra said:
Does it? I thought it was unplayable on both. Remind me which card can run at this at 1440p
Click to expand...

Don't own a 1440p monitor. Turn down the lighting and everyone can run it fine.
 
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Shintai said:
It does, DX11 is much faster than DX12 in this title. And so on for many broken DX12 implementations.
Click to expand...

DX12 is NOT even a choice in the launcher now. Seems that Square Enix forgot to disable it before allowing reviewers access to the game. They also stated that they EXPECT DX12 to be available on 9/5.

I think that the developer of a game should be given a chance to release the game to the public before calling their game broken.

Also everyone knows that Nvidia doesn't do DX12 or Vulkan well. That's not the developer's fault. You don't stop progress for the slow bus to catch up. Nvidia has capable engineers that are working hard to implement DX12 and Vulkan into their drivers. Let's give them a chance to work on it instead of blaming everyone else in the world for their late start. Give them a chance; I'm sure they can get it working. I believe in them; why don't you trust them to do their jobs?

Deus Ex is running on the Dawn Engine that is in Hitman. Shouldn't take that long for it to get fixed as a lot of time has been dedicated to getting Hitman running well. That's why getting one title out on a new engine is important as the rest of the titles that follow can have a chance to be fixed and optimized much quicker. Also the Dawn Engine started out as a DX11 engine. So it has DX12 tacked on. I would expect the next iteration of it to be more DX12 friendly.
 
There isn't going to be any changes as such from now and 2 weeks forward to fix how badly this is. And the game is already 6 months delayed.

Nvidia does DX12 and Vulkan just fine. And considering its an AMD Evolved title, the AMD DX12 performance is quite ironic.
 
cageymaru said:
DX12 is NOT even a choice in the launcher now. Seems that Square Enix forgot to disable it before allowing reviewers access to the game. They also stated that they EXPECT DX12 to be available on 9/5.

I think that the developer of a game should be given a chance to release the game to the public before calling their game broken.

Also everyone knows that Nvidia doesn't do DX12 or Vulkan well. That's not the developer's fault. You don't stop progress for the slow bus to catch up. Nvidia has capable engineers that are working hard to implement DX12 and Vulkan into their drivers. Let's give them a chance to work on it instead of blaming everyone else in the world for their late start. Give them a chance; I'm sure they can get it working. I believe in them; why don't you trust them to do their jobs?

Deus Ex is running on the Dawn Engine that is in Hitman. Shouldn't take that long for it to get fixed as a lot of time has been dedicated to getting Hitman running well. That's why getting one title out on a new engine is important as the rest of the titles that follow can have a chance to be fixed and optimized much quicker. Also the Dawn Engine started out as a DX11 engine. So it has DX12 tacked on. I would expect the next iteration of it to be more DX12 friendly.
Click to expand...


LOL come on Cagey, you don't see the dx12 games that run better on AMD hardware are also running dx11 better than comparative nV hardware? Dude, I think you need to get your head out of the sand sometimes.

It shouldn't take long?

The shaders look completely different from Hitman to Deus EX. I expect it to take longer. Hitman took what 3 months?
 
Shintai said:
There isn't going to be any changes as such from now and 2 weeks forward to fix how badly this is. And the game is already 6 months delayed.

Nvidia does DX12 and Vulkan just fine. And considering its an AMD Evolved title, the AMD DX12 performance is quite ironic.
Click to expand...

I don't see how you can bash the same company that did the Nvidia sponsored Tomb Raider game in January for doing another DX12 game. This one is sponsored by AMD. Whoopy de freaking do. It's the same publishing company that shares code across their development teams. They brag about how they share code and engines developed by their teams. If they fixed it in one they can do the same for another. Have maybe some humility and patience towards others instead of spewing, "I hate X because it's not Nvidia!"

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Suck it up. Learn to accept that technology changes and evolves. DX11 is in the past; we're moving forward. If you have issues with DX12, tell your IHV so they can fix it. Whining about the future never fixed a darn thing. Get something done by filling out a tech support request on Nvidia's website for a change. Hell I've gotten quite a few driver issues rectified that way and I haven't run one of their cards since the 600 series.
 
cageymaru said:
I don't see how you can bash the same company that did the Nvidia sponsored Tomb Raider game in January for doing another DX12 game. This one is sponsored by AMD. Whoopy de freaking do. It's the same publishing company that shares code across their development teams. They brag about how they share code and engines developed by their teams. If they fixed it in one they can do the same for another. Have maybe some humility and patience towards others instead of spewing, "I hate X because it's not Nvidia!"

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Suck it up. Learn to accept that technology changes and evolves. DX11 is in the past; we're moving forward. If you have issues with DX12, tell your IHV so they can fix it. Whining about the future never fixed a darn thing. Get something done by filling out a tech support request on Nvidia's website for a change. Hell I've gotten quite a few driver issues rectified that way and I haven't run one of their cards since the 600 series.
Click to expand...

Didn't follow your conversation but why is it your IHV's fault when a DX12 game runs like ass?
 
Ieldra said:
Didn't follow your conversation but why is it your IHV's fault when a DX12 game runs like ass?
Click to expand...
As I already explained to you it partly is. You can blame the dev all you want but at some point it becomes the responsibility of the IHV to reach out and ensure their hardware runs well in the game. It isn't solely one or the others fault. Sometimes it may be more on one side than the other but rarely if never just one sides fault entirely.

In this case it is just an issue of wait, as they have made us aware, and see how it turns out. Tomb Raider was no piece of cake nor timely with its DX12 implementation, took a couple of drivers to get it working well.

But as far as Cageys advising writing into your IHV, he has a point. Don't you think if enough write in on a point they might be far more inclined to tackle the problem? I mean the sad part is that Nvidia does well with DX11 and not so well with DX12 (not always their fault just the statement of fact). This is an issue if most don't complain about the DX12 performance to them and they then do little to push forward with DX12 performance, rather just being comfortable with DX11. But with time and the fact Miscrosoft is releasing XBOX and PC games simultaneously (likely all being DX12 only), DX11 is limited as far as AAA titles go. This is akin to Titan prices = enough buy them at such a high price that Nvidia then feels no need to lower the price on subsequent releases. However had less bought them forcing Nvidia to lower their price for sales then the latest would likely not be $1200.
 
Shintai said:
There isn't going to be any changes as such from now and 2 weeks forward to fix how badly this is. And the game is already 6 months delayed.

Nvidia does DX12 and Vulkan just fine. And considering its an AMD Evolved title, the AMD DX12 performance is quite ironic.
Click to expand...
lol i think we can wait to bash the performance until at least a week after the dx12 part is ready. You never know, Doom vulkan performance was quit a surprise as well and know one expected it to perform as well as it did for either camps. Me im withholding judgment until then...and as far as it being delayed a bit. Games are delayed all the time much worse then this one!
 
JustReason said:
As I already explained to you it partly is. You can blame the dev all you want but at some point it becomes the responsibility of the IHV to reach out and ensure their hardware runs well in the game. It isn't solely one or the others fault. Sometimes it may be more on one side than the other but rarely if never just one sides fault entirely.

In this case it is just an issue of wait, as they have made us aware, and see how it turns out. Tomb Raider was no piece of cake nor timely with its DX12 implementation, took a couple of drivers to get it working well.

But as far as Cageys advising writing into your IHV, he has a point. Don't you think if enough write in on a point they might be far more inclined to tackle the problem? I mean the sad part is that Nvidia does well with DX11 and not so well with DX12 (not always their fault just the statement of fact). This is an issue if most don't complain about the DX12 performance to them and they then do little to push forward with DX12 performance, rather just being comfortable with DX11. But with time and the fact Miscrosoft is releasing XBOX and PC games simultaneously (likely all being DX12 only), DX11 is limited as far as AAA titles go. This is akin to Titan prices = enough buy them at such a high price that Nvidia then feels no need to lower the price on subsequent releases. However had less bought them forcing Nvidia to lower their price for sales then the latest would likely not be $1200.
Click to expand...
Look I understand your point, but I still think you're approaching the problem from the wrong direction.


You say NV has problems with DX12 because there have been performance recessions in some titles when transitioning from DX11 to DX12. Right?

So now imagine we have a game we are benchmarking using both APIs.

Let's assume the game presents no CPU bottlenecks whatsoever, the GPU is the limiting factor at all times.

Dx11 : 60fps
Dx12: 54 fps

This is fairly common right? The thing is, in theory, the developer should be able to port the exact same code over to DX12 and have it run identically, the only reason it doesn't is because the developer lost some of the optimization done between the API and the driver; which is the one of the main advantages of using abstraction layers, along with portability and standardization of features.

This is only natural, because as you know to extract performance from DX12 you have to combine knowledge and understanding of the hardware and knowledge of your code; the usual perks and drawbacks of lower level programming (always relative).

Sure there are still going to be driver updates, optimizing the dx12 routines for example, but improvements on that end are much more limited by nature of the API.

Having said all that, all you need is one data point to disprove the 'nvidia has worse dx12 support/ nvidia has worse dx12 performance'

AotS runs identically in dx11 and dx12 (benchmark) (even on maxwell, if you disable async compute) and performs in line with shader throughout for the most part.

I haven't experienced hitman running significantly worse before the latest Thailand episode, it's really strange that it varies wildly from episode to episode.

My testing on PresentMon showed more or less same performance with higher minimums in dx12.

According to videos on YouTube there's like a 30% perf hit for a gtx 1080 in dx12.

If it's running worse in dx12 than in dx11 it just means the driver and API were doing a better job

Edit: to be clear I didn't try the Thailand episode yet, I just saw videos on youtube
 
It's not so much that AMD is all that much better with next gen API's like DX12/Vulkan. It's that their drivers have been SO shitty and inefficient since their inception that these API's which take a lot of the focus away from the drivers have finally been able to showcase what the hardware is capable of.
 
cageymaru said:
Deus Ex Mankind Divided - Erste Benchmarks und Performance-Eindrücke - DX12 strauchelt

In addition, it is the amount of video memory to be considered, because 4 GiByte be short of our trial already in Full HD. Due to the already high demands on graphics card and memory, we advise the time being on MSAA, as this gives 8-GiByte graphics card may be considered as a minimum; even the 12 GiByte a (GTX) Titanium X can be filled.

Lulz. I hope this stays in the testing suite. Crazy demanding!
Click to expand...

Inb4 someone calls the game unoptimized POS.
 
JustReason said:
However had less bought them forcing Nvidia to lower their price for sales then the latest would likely not be $1200.
Click to expand...

The thing with Titans is that, if we ignore Titan Black, Mitan X's performance per price increase over OG Titan (as per TPU's charts) is actually very similar to Pitan X's compared to Mitan X, despite the fact that Mitan X was a $999 GPU like the OG titan, but Pitan X was $1200.

So all things considered, had Pitan X kept the price at $999 and kept its performance per price the same as it is now, Pitan X would actually be a shit GPU (it would be along the lines of 10~15% increase in performance, AT MOST, compared to 1080 at 67% price increase). The fact that it charged 20% more yet keeping the perf/$ the same is actually a marvel, since performance increases at this tier always have been accompanied by a drastically lower perf/$, which makes 20% increase in price for 20% increase in performance an absolute bargain.

At least I find it more palatable given that pascal is effectively a 2 gen increase over Maxwell, especially if we take inflation into account.
 
Yay! I'm going to have a lot of fun trying to run this at 7680x1440. Even the GTX 1080 SLI looks not be enough here. And I pre-ordered the special edition...
 
cageymaru said:
DX12 is NOT even a choice in the launcher now. Seems that Square Enix forgot to disable it before allowing reviewers access to the game. They also stated that they EXPECT DX12 to be available on 9/5.

I think that the developer of a game should be given a chance to release the game to the public before calling their game broken.

Also everyone knows that Nvidia doesn't do DX12 or Vulkan well. That's not the developer's fault. You don't stop progress for the slow bus to catch up. Nvidia has capable engineers that are working hard to implement DX12 and Vulkan into their drivers. Let's give them a chance to work on it instead of blaming everyone else in the world for their late start. Give them a chance; I'm sure they can get it working. I believe in them; why don't you trust them to do their jobs?

Deus Ex is running on the Dawn Engine that is in Hitman. Shouldn't take that long for it to get fixed as a lot of time has been dedicated to getting Hitman running well. That's why getting one title out on a new engine is important as the rest of the titles that follow can have a chance to be fixed and optimized much quicker. Also the Dawn Engine started out as a DX11 engine. So it has DX12 tacked on. I would expect the next iteration of it to be more DX12 friendly.
Click to expand...


It seems most of our hopes and dreams for dx12 rest with frostbite 3 and EA/dice. Now if they could only get bioware to release 3 rpgs on a 3 year cadence, one hitting each year. mass effect / dragon age / other
 
Has NVIDIA or AMD released drivers yet? Well for DX11... So don't judge too harshly yet. It will be interesting to see how performance changes with a patch/driver or 2. Not sure the game should be this demanding.
 
JustReason said:
As I already explained to you it partly is. You can blame the dev all you want but at some point it becomes the responsibility of the IHV to reach out and ensure their hardware runs well in the game. It isn't solely one or the others fault. Sometimes it may be more on one side than the other but rarely if never just one sides fault entirely.
Click to expand...

That's just plain BS. With DX12, it goes to the developer. If the developer want to put any kind on the IHV they would do so via DX11. What, its also Intels fault that game developers tends to forget a Intel DX12 path? AMD for example got engineers working in the studios on game code. Not on drivers.

You dont blame rubbish CPU code on AMD or Intel either to fix it do you?

DX12 coding isn't for amateurs, and there is not many in the entire industry that can do it anywhere near right yet. Specially not when you need optimized paths down to SKU level. We haven't seen any DX12 yet that's different than DX11. Its not like you start one in DX12 mode and just say wow, this could never be done with DX11. That one we also wait for.

Future GPUs running old DX12 games that haven't been updated will also be a "fun" thing.
 
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Shintai said:
That's just plain BS. With DX12, it goes to the developer. If the developer want to put any kind on the IHV they would do so via DX11. What, its also Intels fault that game developers tends to forget a Intel DX12 path? AMD for example got engineers working in the studios on game code. Not on drivers.

You dont blame rubbish CPU code on AMD or Intel either to fix it do you?

DX12 coding isn't for amateurs, and there is not many in the entire industry that can do it anywhere near right yet. Specially not when you need optimized paths down to SKU level. We haven't seen any DX12 yet that's different than DX11. Its not like you start one in DX12 mode and just say wow, this could never be done with DX11. That one we also wait for.

Future GPUs running old DX12 games that haven't been updated will also be a "fun" thing.
Click to expand...
BS, pretty much everything you post.

So the dev has intimate knowledge of AMD/Nvidia architecture.

They have absolutely no tools from AMD/Nvidia.

AMD nor Nvidia have any say or input at all in any DX12 game.

Based on your post this is what you say and that is utter BS and ignorant and asinine drivel.
 
JustReason said:
BS, pretty much everything you post.

So the dev has intimate knowledge of AMD/Nvidia architecture.

They have absolutely no tools from AMD/Nvidia.

AMD nor Nvidia have any say or input at all in any DX12 game.

Based on your post this is what you say and that is utter BS and ignorant and asinine drivel.
Click to expand...

Why is the burden on AMD and Nvidia? Because if that's the case, all bad CPU code must also be the burden of AMD and Intel. Because the developer gets a free card from you.

When you go DX12, you also decide to go on your own for a lot of things. There is no high level API to hold your hand. Its a high risk, high reward system. And even MS says DX12 isn't for everyone, far from it. This is also why DX11.3 got into the world. And we now see companies doing DX12 that really shouldn't. Specially not with the current knowhow of DX12 among developers. Good DX12 developers are still a drop in the ocean. This will obviously change over time, but it requires a lot of time.

While specially AMD dedicates its own engineers to work on game code directly for some PR benefit. This isn't a sustainable path. You cant just "outsource" DX12 implementations to IHVs. DX12 implementations and continual support for new GPUs is the work of the developer.

Low level API is a nice thing on fixed hardware. Not so much on a huge pile of random stuff as the PC is. And even then, fixed hardware systems like consoles still got a high level API for those that cant go low level.

Looking at Deus Ex, they should never have jumped on DX12 as well. Its 6 months late, runs like crap and who knows what else.

And what is the benefit again of having both paths? Right, ZERO.
 
Last edited:
Shintai said:
Why is the burden on AMD and Nvidia? Because if that's the case, all bad CPU code must also be the burden of AMD and Intel. Because the developer gets a free card from you.

When you go DX12, you also decide to go on your own for a lot of things. There is no high level API to hold your hand. Its a high risk, high reward system. And even MS says DX12 isn't for everyone, far from it. This is also why DX11.3 got into the world. And we now see companies doing DX12 that really shouldn't. Specially not with the current knowhow of DX12 among developers. Good DX12 developers are still a drop in the ocean. This will obviously change over time, but it requires a lot of time.

While specially AMD dedicates its own engineers to work on game code directly for some PR benefit. This isn't a sustainable path. You cant just "outsource" DX12 implementations to IHVs. DX12 implementations and continual support for new GPUs is the work of the developer.

Low level API is a nice thing on fixed hardware. Not so much on a huge pile of random stuff as the PC is. And even then, fixed hardware systems like consoles still got a high level API for those that cant go low level.

Looking at Deus Ex, they should never have jumped on DX12 as well. Its 6 months late, runs like crap and who knows what else.

And what is the benefit again of having both paths? Right, ZERO.
Click to expand...
So instead of directly responding to what I typed you instead infer horse dung from it.

First the fact is that I said BOTH DEVS AND IHV ARE RESPONSIBLE.

What you state:

ONLY THE DEVS ARE RESPONSIBLE.

That is utter BS unless:

THE DEV HAS NOT REACHED OUT TO AMD nor NVIDIA NOR USED ANY TOOLS SET FORTH BY EITHER.

Can you prove this last statement? Can you prove AMD or Nvidia have had absolutely no contact with Square Enix for this title? I mean that is what you allude to. It is seriously asinine and just shows that most of what you post is garbage and not to be taken with any less salt than WCCFtech.
 
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