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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

JustReason said:
So instead of directly responding to what I typed you instead infer horse dung from it.

First the fact is that I said BOTH DEVS AND IHV ARE RESPONSIBLE.

What you state:

ONLY THE DEVS ARE RESPONSIBLE.

That is utter BS unless:

THE DEV HAS NOT REACHED OUT TO AMD nor NVIDIA NOR USED ANY TOOLS SET FORTH BY EITHER.

Can you prove this last statement? Can you prove AMD or Nvidia have had absolutely no contact with Square Enix for this title? I mean that is what you allude to. It is seriously asinine and just shows that most of what you post is garbage and not to be taken with any less salt than WCCFtech.
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1. Pretty sure you bitch and whine every time NV works with a game developer, some irony in you demanding this be the norm now.

2. AMD/NV are under no obligation to help anyone... Why would they use their resources to help individual developer, essentially writing parts of the code for them? They've already done the optimization work, use DX11.

Do Intel/AMD dedicate their resources to helping random developers programming in assembly? Is there a dedicated team of assembly assistants? No. They focus on optimizing the compiler, if you're going to program in assembly you are on your own.

You've been using the word asinine very frequently, maybe put down the thesaurus and start making sense instead?
 
Ieldra said:
1. Pretty sure you bitch and whine every time NV works with a game developer, some irony in you demanding this be the norm now.

2. AMD/NV are under no obligation to help anyone... Why would they use their resources to help individual developer, essentially writing parts of the code for them? They've already done the optimization work, use DX11.
Click to expand...
First you are gonna have to prove number 1 which you wont be able to do. As far as number 2, assume for a second they don't. DeusEx comes out and only AMD worked with the Dev because Nvidia decided to do NOTHING. It is a highly anticipated title, do you think it is worth the risk to allow that outcome? AMD will sell a ton of cards for that title if it runs like crap on competeing hardware. Nvidia would have to be fools to allow that outcome which is what you keep alluding to being the way it is done. I am not saying AMD or Nvidia need to write the code but if certain code is problematic on their hardware do you not think it would behoove them to make the dev aware of it and what to do in said situation?

You and the ignorant one are debating an either or situation where I am arguing the more logical path and how it has been done, especially with AAA devs, all along. If a AAA game runs poorly it is never likely gonna be just one groups fault and any subsequent fix will likely require the other input as well.
 
JustReason said:
First you are gonna have to prove number 1 which you wont be able to do. As far as number 2, assume for a second they don't. DeusEx comes out and only AMD worked with the Dev because Nvidia decided to do NOTHING. It is a highly anticipated title, do you think it is worth the risk to allow that outcome? AMD will sell a ton of cards for that title if it runs like crap on competeing hardware. Nvidia would have to be fools to allow that outcome which is what you keep alluding to being the way it is done. I am not saying AMD or Nvidia need to write the code but if certain code is problematic on their hardware do you not think it would behoove them to make the dev aware of it and what to do in said situation?

You and the ignorant one are debating an either or situation where I am arguing the more logical path and how it has been done, especially with AAA devs, all along. If a AAA game runs poorly it is never likely gonna be just one groups fault and any subsequent fix will likely require the other input as well.
Click to expand...

Oh man, this is rich. You're arguing the more logical path... What? Between your strange diatribes against percentages and misguided championing of async *shaders* you've stumbled onto something with the semblance of logic? Miraculous.

I am sure AMD and NV will be more than happy to help (in a limited capacity) the better known titles in development. Help, not do their work for them. They could contribute to optimizing performance critical code snippets for their respective hardware, but that's about it.

If your game is a mess from top to bottom because you're blindly stumbling your way through your first DX12 project like JustReason in a discussion grounded in reality, you will likely get a well deserved middle finger
 
Isn't this the 3rd DX12 game that Square Enix has published? One sponsored by Nvidia and two sponsored by AMD?
 
cageymaru said:
Isn't this the 3rd DX12 game that Square Enix has published? One sponsored by Nvidia and two sponsored by AMD?
Click to expand...

Warhammer was sponsored by AMD and it runs just fine, AotS runs just fine, Gears of War runs just fine, Tomb Raider and Hitman run fine for the most part.

Just because the game is sponsored doesn't mean it will run badly for the other IHV.

DOOM Vulkan uses GCN specific path using GCN specific libraries and still runs just fine on NV hardware.
Unfortunately as far as perception goes, NV tends to do just fine on DX11, making it harder for developers to present tangible performance gains when comparing to DX12
 
nV hardware just won't gain as much from async (they will still gain but not as much) as AMD hardware, their utilization is better at a ALU level,
 
razor1 said:
nV hardware just won't gain as much from async (they will still gain but not as much) as AMD hardware, their utilization is better at a ALU level,
Click to expand...
Talking about DX12 in general, CPU bottleneck being lifted essentially, won't lead to significant improvement 9/10 times
 
Shintai said:
That's just plain BS. With DX12, it goes to the developer. If the developer want to put any kind on the IHV they would do so via DX11. What, its also Intels fault that game developers tends to forget a Intel DX12 path? AMD for example got engineers working in the studios on game code. Not on drivers.

You dont blame rubbish CPU code on AMD or Intel either to fix it do you?

DX12 coding isn't for amateurs, and there is not many in the entire industry that can do it anywhere near right yet. Specially not when you need optimized paths down to SKU level. We haven't seen any DX12 yet that's different than DX11. Its not like you start one in DX12 mode and just say wow, this could never be done with DX11. That one we also wait for.

Future GPUs running old DX12 games that haven't been updated will also be a "fun" thing.
Click to expand...


Yes, on nvidia cards, amds gcn cards are closer in design from generation to generation.
 
Shintai said:
Why is the burden on AMD and Nvidia? Because if that's the case, all bad CPU code must also be the burden of AMD and Intel. Because the developer gets a free card from you.

When you go DX12, you also decide to go on your own for a lot of things. There is no high level API to hold your hand. Its a high risk, high reward system. And even MS says DX12 isn't for everyone, far from it. This is also why DX11.3 got into the world. And we now see companies doing DX12 that really shouldn't. Specially not with the current knowhow of DX12 among developers. Good DX12 developers are still a drop in the ocean. This will obviously change over time, but it requires a lot of time.

While specially AMD dedicates its own engineers to work on game code directly for some PR benefit. This isn't a sustainable path. You cant just "outsource" DX12 implementations to IHVs. DX12 implementations and continual support for new GPUs is the work of the developer.

Low level API is a nice thing on fixed hardware. Not so much on a huge pile of random stuff as the PC is. And even then, fixed hardware systems like consoles still got a high level API for those that cant go low level.

Looking at Deus Ex, they should never have jumped on DX12 as well. Its 6 months late, runs like crap and who knows what else.

And what is the benefit again of having both paths? Right, ZERO.
Click to expand...

First of all, we don't know how dx12 will shake out after it launches. Second, even if the implementation is a pile of scat the effort will not have been in vain, all those devs that worked on it will learn enough knowledge to make their next effort a little less terrible. The more people try, the more of both successes and failures we will have. But over time, it will accelerate the knowledge base to make dx12 implementations come out faster and better.


The ONLY people who would want dx12 to be abandoned for fear of it being worse are nvidia fanboys who want to see dx11 reign, where there is far less hope of amd cards being utilized to full effect.
 
tybert7 said:
The ONLY people who would want dx12 to be abandoned for fear of it being worse are nvidia fanboys who want to see dx11 reign, where there is far less hope of amd cards being utilized to full effect.
Click to expand...

And what about those people who would like to see proper DX12 implementations that actually gives something DX11 wouldn't. A requirement that would mean DX12 only. And something that requires the proper amount of funding and development time allocation. rather than some sort of parallel experiment that is just a time and money sink to wave a PR flag at best.


Unfortunately we know that didn't happen (BF1). So now its perhaps for holidays 2017 that we can hope so. And this time on WDDM2.1.
 
tybert7 said:
Yes, on nvidia cards, amds gcn cards are closer in design from generation to generation.
Click to expand...

Not for long, we hope.
Shintai said:
And what about those people who would like to see proper DX12 implementations that actually gives something DX11 wouldn't. A requirement that would mean DX12 only. And something that requires the proper amount of funding and development time allocation. rather than some sort of parallel experiment that is just a time and money sink to wave a PR flag at best.


Unfortunately we know that didn't happen. So now its perhaps for holidays 2017 that we can hope so. And this time on WDDM2.1.
Click to expand...

What about 12_1. Why do we not get any CR love ?
 
Shintai said:
I am sure we will sooner or later. All Maxwell, Pascal, Skylake, Kaby Lake, Apollo Lake etc supports it.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt we'll see many users complaining about how AMD is holding the development of 12_1 back because it's beneficial to their competitor(s)
 
You will not see a DX12 only game for years. Why? Because we need an installed base for DX12 cards first.

IHV assist game developers all the time. Nvidia has a huge software engineering team dedicated to it; assisting developers to make sure that games run properly on Nvidia hardware. They get to see code in it's infancy so that they can write proper drivers. That's why you see "day one" drivers from AMD and Nvidia so much. They literally are sent code during development and sometimes help rewrite code to make it better. Both companies have complained about literally writing large sections of games because the code was so bad. Read some of their Crossfire and SLi implementation horror stories.

The only time that IHVs are blindsided are examples where new features were added at the last minute, or the release date is changed over and over without notifying the IHV of new changes in code. A sudden release after extensive code changes will cause major issues with drivers. Otherwise they know exactly what's going on with a game well before release.

Does bad coding still make it into release? Of course. I would say that if AMD and Nvidia didn't have initiatives to directly influence code that PC gaming would be much, much worse.
 
cageymaru said:
You will not see a DX12 only game for years. Why? Because we need an installed base for DX12 cards first.

IHV assist game developers all the time. Nvidia has a huge software engineering team dedicated to it; assisting developers to make sure that games run properly on Nvidia hardware. They get to see code in it's infancy so that they can write proper drivers. That's why you see "day one" drivers from AMD and Nvidia so much. They literally are sent code during development and sometimes help rewrite code to make it better. Both companies have complained about literally writing large sections of games because the code was so bad. Read some of their Crossfire and SLi implementation horror stories.

The only time that IHVs are blindsided are examples where new features were added at the last minute, or the release date is changed over and over without notifying the IHV of new changes in code. A sudden release after extensive code changes will cause major issues with drivers. Otherwise they know exactly what's going on with a game well before release.

Does bad coding still make it into release? Of course. I would say that if AMD and Nvidia didn't have initiatives to directly influence code that PC gaming would be much, much worse.
Click to expand...

Will be a while before dc12/vulkan become the norm, which is something some of us have been saying for a long time ; hence my saying that buying a card because of how you expect it will perform in the future is a bad idea, always.
 
Shintai said:
They are already there as you see ;)
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Yes it is there but they can at least double their sails but Not excluding non-dx12 ready buyers. In truth non dx12 pc's probably couldn't play the game worth a shit anyway but you know some would still buy it lol
 
I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for people who refuse to install the FREE win 10 to their system to get dx12. Worried about being spied on? Then trash your smartphone locked into your location via gps with numerous passwords and all manner of personal info.

Dual boot win 10 for just an updated gaming experience. No? Then screw you you prickly example of humanity and get left behind. Who cares whether these laggards are so frightened about the new to get with the times. Leave them in the dust and move on.
 
Well its no longer free lol, they had that promo only for like 6 months?
 
tybert7 said:
I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for people who refuse to install the FREE win 10 to their system to get dx12. Worried about being spied on? Then trash your smartphone locked into your location via gps with numerous passwords and all manner of personal info.

Dual boot win 10 for just an updated gaming experience. No? Then screw you you prickly example of humanity and get left behind. Who cares whether these laggards are so frightened about the new to get with the times. Leave them in the dust and move on.
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If they refuse to upgrade they should stop whining. It's their own fault when games don't work on their system. They are just stubborn grandpas.
 
Ieldra said:
The real crime is not upgrading to Windows 10 if you're on Windows 8. Those people should be downgraded to Windows ME
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Yeah free OS upgrade for dx12 i wouldn't pass up if i ever had the misfortune of Windows 8.
 
razor1 said:
Well its no longer free lol, they had that promo only for like 6 months?
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It was one full year. I think there was a bit of a miscommunication as well. They said upgrade free for Win7/8 users not earlier versions. I think that was for upgrading = keeping your files. I took the chance and straight new installed Win 10 for my machine in the livingroom that had Linux, no problem. I couldn't find any info on fresh installs as far as win 10 in regards to being free, but looks like it wasn't an issue. I did this just a week before the free period ending, again that was for the "upgrade period". Not sure how it would go down now. Seems MS would want as many win 10 users as possible.
 
I signed up for the Insider Edition (free but means I am on a constant beta OS (which doesn't bother me one bit)) when I built my wife's and my new computers. Since she was using Windows 7 x86 edition we had to purchase Windows 10 for her so she could get the x64 edition.

I still prefer Windows 7 to 10 but if it was a free upgrade and Windows 7 is going to be EOL eventually so unless you're in the 0.1% category who has software that won't work on 10 it doesn't make any sense to not at least have reserved your free copy (or even have it on a separate partition or drive).
 
Quick question.

From the point of this post, how long left until the game is officially launched?
 
It looks like release date is tomorrow (August 23rd) with DX12 patch rumored for September 5th.
 
Shintai said:
Windows 10 was free since day 1 till end of last month.

However there is a little trick to still getting a free Windows 10 upgrade:
Windows 10 upgrade for assistive technology users

So if you haven't done it yet, do it.
Click to expand...
JustReason said:
It was one full year. I think there was a bit of a miscommunication as well. They said upgrade free for Win7/8 users not earlier versions. I think that was for upgrading = keeping your files. I took the chance and straight new installed Win 10 for my machine in the livingroom that had Linux, no problem. I couldn't find any info on fresh installs as far as win 10 in regards to being free, but looks like it wasn't an issue. I did this just a week before the free period ending, again that was for the "upgrade period". Not sure how it would go down now. Seems MS would want as many win 10 users as possible.
Click to expand...


Cool thought it was done a while back,

nah I updated the first day it came out, pretty much had to, work still uses win 7 though, that ain't going to change any time soon.
 
razor1 said:
Cool thought it was done a while back,

nah I updated the first day it came out, pretty much had to, work still uses win 7 though, that ain't going to change any time soon.
Click to expand...
My work can't change yet either. Gotta wait on java and the program we use to verify Win10.
 
Algrim said:
It looks like release date is tomorrow (August 23rd) with DX12 patch rumored for September 5th.
Click to expand...

Re-Reading the announcement the dev team made I'm betting it won't launch on the 5th. Sometime later that week though, since that would be the two weeks. Assuming it doesn't get delayed further, of course.
 
Algrim said:
It looks like release date is tomorrow (August 23rd) with DX12 patch rumored for September 5th.
Click to expand...
Was wondering why the DirectX 12 option was greyed out...

No, Chrome spell checker, I will not spell grey with an 'a'...
 
After looking at some of the dx11 benchmarks, I'll be waiting until they enable dx12 on this title before I buy.


I think they should do steam surveys of people who buy the game there. What % of people buying the game have gpus that are capable of dx12. By guess is well over half at this point, maybe more.
 
Armenius said:
Was wondering why the DirectX 12 option was greyed out...

No, Chrome spell checker, I will not spell grey with an 'a'...
Click to expand...


Don't have the game and not really planning to buy, but might want to check in the cfg files, could be able to turn it on?
 
How many more of these games do we need before people stop saying "X card is overkill for 1080p" ?
Titan XP is pulling 63 minimum. That's a $1200 card to just barely stay over 60fps.
 
lol saw that review. Damn seriously what the heck is this game using. It better damn look godly. It makes Titan XP crawl. Lord have mercy on 1200 dollar card, damn!
 
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