DAN C4-SFX: The smallest water cooling case in the world

Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by dondan, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. dondan

    dondan [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have a new question for you:

    Whould it be a problem if the motherboard standoff will be a part of the side panel? This means you can't remove the panel without removing the motherboard. The advantage would be, that I don't need the middleplate. Then I will redesign the inner body that will have a bottom where you can screw the radiator. This will make mounting radiators much easier.

    Disadvantages:
    - you have to unscrew the motherboard to get access to its backside

    Advantages:
    - increasing stiffness of the case
    - easier installation process for radiators
     
  2. galletabah

    galletabah Limp Gawd

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    angled type 2 is awesome.
     
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  3. Buttoneer

    Buttoneer Limp Gawd

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    I would favour hifi feet located in the corners. With one or even two pumps running in the case there's potential for vibrations through the feet and into the desk creating more noise than you would like. If you have some sort of standard screw-in round feet then we can buy (or you can supply at additional cost) separate acoustic isolation versions.

    If you buy big enough feet you could have them sticking out giving the case a squat purposeful look.

    I do like the InWin version best - how about also looking at rails along each side sticking out like ski's? Like the case on this one except not fugly. https://www.scan.co.uk/products/coo...MIwLecx46F3AIVZrvtCh2UQQpkEAQYASABEgL23PD_BwE
     
  4. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Sounds clumpsy. That’s my initial reaction. To counter this: What about adding an opening to access motherboard backside (cooler / waterblock mounting / m.2 access)? This opening will can be closed off via a cover plate that is flush mounted to the back panel. To accommodate the flush mount, the motherboard standoffs would have to be slightly taller. What do you think?
     
  5. richiegore

    richiegore Limp Gawd

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    In the A4 you need to take the motherboard out to access the back. I don't think it's a big deal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  6. Sebbie

    Sebbie Limp Gawd

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    What you mean? Why do you want to access that? I think it would be hassle.
    Look at the Ncase M1 easy access of the back with the removal of the sidepanel
     
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  7. Buttoneer

    Buttoneer Limp Gawd

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    My 2c; I don't know how common it is for M2 slots to be on the back of motherboards but it would have dual effect of making it difficult to swap out and also reducing airflow for cooling.

    Having said that, I've not had cause to look at mine for three years.
     
  8. Talyrius

    Talyrius Gawd

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    Almost all of the ITX boards I've looked at have M.2 slots on the back. Having to completely remove the motherboard in order to gain access to the M.2 slot and the backside of the CPU mounting socket would be a PITA that I'd like to avoid, if possible.

    We'd also be losing cable management space...
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  9. dondan

    dondan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Talyrius: You will not lose cable management space because you can route the cable first and than install the motherboard over it.
     
  10. ranix

    ranix Limp Gawd

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    Not sure about other people but I rarely remove my MB... so yes this solution is less user-friendly but I would rather have better thermal or better anything and have to deal with the trouble of losing 1 hr every year if I need to upgrade my ssd if I can enjoy a better solution during this year long.

    If we can t having it all, then this is at least for me ok.
     
  11. Buttoneer

    Buttoneer Limp Gawd

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    Some of the AIO's have big ol' back plates which need to be accommodated - I assume standard mobo standoff's are good enough?. Plus side - if the M2 cards are right up against the side panel maybe you have found yourself a big heatsink.
     
  12. thed00d

    thed00d [H]Lite

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    I really like the angled 2 version


    as long as I can still use the same cables I already shortened for the A4, whatever you change inside is fine with me - but I don't want to have to buy new longer cables just to shorten them again
     
  13. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    "The only limit is your own imagination"

    I'm not sure this is the best marketing slogan for an SFF case :D
     
  14. ScarletStar

    ScarletStar n00b

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    Or a short.
    Also you don't need to cool NAND flash. All you want to cool is the controller chip. NAND flash has higher endurance when it's running at higher temps. Cause the energy and thus voltage needed to tunnel charges onto the isolated control gate is lower at higher temperatures, which in turn means less damage to the oxide layer in between per program-erase-cycle.
    Look at this. Only the controller really gets hot. What those copper stickers on Samsung SSDs do is spread that heat over the NAND chips, cooling the controller while heating the NAND.
     
  15. dglow

    dglow [H]Lite

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    dondan, congratulations and good health to you and your family!
     
  16. Matias Petersen

    Matias Petersen n00b

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    I prefer the angled feet, or the jonsbo style feet with just the single vand going across the bottom, other than that, good luck!
     
  17. ScarletStar

    ScarletStar n00b

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    Oh I made a small mistake. The height of the feet obviously change that angle too. The higher the feet, the smaller the angle becomes.
    So three conflicting design goals:

    stability: as low as possible with as wide a base as possible
    design: low with a narrow base for the current design
    cooling: as high as possible

    Daily business in engineering: Dealing with multilemmas :D
     
  18. Notional

    Notional n00b

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    Congratz on your very own ITX human, Dan. I hope the sleep isn't too bad :sleep:
     
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  19. fullvietFX

    fullvietFX [H]ard|Gawd

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    When will this be available for purchase?
     
  20. dondan

    dondan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Currently i don't have a date for this question.
     
  21. wahaha360

    wahaha360 Gawd

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  22. AlMiDaX

    AlMiDaX [H]Lite

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    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  23. Buttoneer

    Buttoneer Limp Gawd

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    They can make M1 cooling interesting too.
     
  24. ScarletStar

    ScarletStar n00b

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    Push pull is pointless, especially on a thin radiator.

    What are you gaining from push pull is more static pressure.
    What you're losing from using low profile fans is static pressure.
    What you're gaining from using a low profile radiator is lower pressure drop -> higher airflow.

    It makes no sense to use push pull in this scenario (it rarely does in general). Just use a normal thickness fan with higher static pressure.

    The only scenario where push pull is relevant is when you have very thick radiators so you need the extra static pressure to mitigate the already bad return on investment on high radiator thickness.



    So all this means Dan could make the case a bit smaller, but then it would mandate the use of this radiator and no other.
     
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  25. Synomenon

    Synomenon [H]ardness Supreme

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    USB3.1 Gen2 front panel port completely off the table then for this case? I haven't read of any updates on that.
     
  26. AlMiDaX

    AlMiDaX [H]Lite

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    Dude, we are talking about options, as long as it's optional I wouldn't call it pointless.
    There are several tests that clearly show the benefit of a push/pull config. Will it work on this case? I don't know, that's why I said it should be tested at least.
    I 'm pretty sure nobody asked Dan to change the design or to make it smaller.
     
  27. ScarletStar

    ScarletStar n00b

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    What I'm trying to say is: It's probably not worth it because push+pull might give you a slight bonus (read: diminishing returns) normally with additional same thickness fans (read: by sacrificing additional 25mm space) but it's probably not gonna do much in this case cause we're swapping better performing thicker fans with low profiles ones.
    As long as you don't have to change the design and it fits, you're of course free to test it yourself. But I'm against making Daniel test any weird configuration we can come up with (including ordering all the parts needed from the development budget). This project is taking long enough as it is. You can't test for every use case a user can think of.

    Car manufacturers don't test the ballistic behavior or airborne cars for example. It's a legitimate use case for film making. But it's a niche use case.
    Using one single (not yet) available slim radiator with push+pull low profile fans (which there are about enough options to count with the fingers of one hand) IS a niche use case.
    I'm sure it's interesting data, and I'm kinda curious if my predictions are correct, but I really wouldn't conduct these tests in the scope of the product development process.

    But that's just my humble opinion. Sorry if I read intentions into your comment that you didn't actually have.
     
  28. senderson

    senderson n00b

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    oh man, i want this so much
     
  29. Rorschach

    Rorschach Limp Gawd

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  30. galletabah

    galletabah Limp Gawd

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  31. TinySeth

    TinySeth n00b

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    I have the Dan's A4 v2 case. Loving that case. One of the reasons why I love that case is how clean it is debranded.
    Is slapping Dan logo on it set in stone? because reasons.
     
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  32. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    I haven't followed this case since the beginning... I apologize for a mistimed and uninformed comment, but I still don't get why the graphics card has to be upside down. Why not just flip the case and move the AIO to the bottom?
     
  33. AlMiDaX

    AlMiDaX [H]Lite

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    Actually you can flip the case, go to page 17 to see both orientations.
     
  34. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    I know, but then you have to intake from the top, which isn't good for dust and would look bad with dust filters. I meant keep the AIO on the bottom but flip everything else. The hanging graphics card bothers me, structurally and aesthetically. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but it's a deal-breaker for me, and I also don't get the reason for it.
     
  35. AlMiDaX

    AlMiDaX [H]Lite

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    You don't "have to" intake from the top, it's optional, it depends on fan orientation.
    Just imagine the setup below but with the fans pushing the air upwards.

    128487_20180522_211820.jpg
     
  36. Notional

    Notional n00b

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    I read Dan will get back to it next week. There is one thing I'm thinking: I'm going to have the case oriented as shown above. With the GPU showing on the left side. There are two things I would like to do in that setup:

    1. Have the radiator screwed right into the chassis, with the fans above, right under the top panel. So opposite of what the picture above is showing.
    2. With the PSU backside at the very bottom of the case, I see no reason to have the internal extention cord adding cable clutter. Instead just have it plug straight into the PSU from the bottom, using an angled cord PXT101LX.B.jpg It looks like the clearing will be enough. I just hope the feet on the case will have room for a cord to go between them (would with the rubber feet). Would be nice if the demci filters would support this somehow, including access to the on/off button of the PSU.
    Idk what is going to happen with a front USB c connector. I know few ITX boards (so far) have them, but I'd still rather have that than front panel audio connectors. But it's not a dealbreaker at all. I do think we will get very high speed external drives be normal, that can easily be held back by USB 3.
     
  37. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    Then you have negative pressure. I care about dust. Anyway, I guess it's pointless to discuss this as the design is finalized.
     
  38. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    I believe dondan did it that way to make routing the tubing easier. Between the GPU, riser, and PSU, there isn't a lot of room coming from that direction.
     
  39. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    That makes sense... I have a weird feeling that when the case releases, more people will use it in AIO-on-top orientation than otherwise.

    I prefer your version of this general layout that you've been showing on SFFForum, it suits my needs better. I hope you're still working on that.
     
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  40. thed00d

    thed00d [H]Lite

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    I honestly prefer the internal design to be just like the A4s, because of people (like me) already having shortened Power Cables - which might not fit anymore, if the PSU will get relocated. As of now Dan said it would still fit, as the distance between and relative locations on PSU and Mainboard are just as in the A4