DAN C4-SFX: The smallest water cooling case in the world

Buttoneer

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
127
I would favour hifi feet located in the corners. With one or even two pumps running in the case there's potential for vibrations through the feet and into the desk creating more noise than you would like. If you have some sort of standard screw-in round feet then we can buy (or you can supply at additional cost) separate acoustic isolation versions.

If you buy big enough feet you could have them sticking out giving the case a squat purposeful look.

I do like the InWin version best - how about also looking at rails along each side sticking out like ski's? Like the case on this one except not fugly. https://www.scan.co.uk/products/coo...MIwLecx46F3AIVZrvtCh2UQQpkEAQYASABEgL23PD_BwE
 

Nanook

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 21, 2016
Messages
385
I have a new question for you:

Whould it be a problem if the motherboard standoff will be a part of the side panel? This means you can't remove the panel without removing the motherboard. The advantage would be, that I don't need the middleplate. Then I will redesign the inner body that will have a bottom where you can screw the radiator. This will make mounting radiators much easier.

Disadvantages:
- you have to unscrew the motherboard to get access to its backside

Advantages:
- increasing stiffness of the case
- easier installation process for radiators
Sounds clumpsy. That’s my initial reaction. To counter this: What about adding an opening to access motherboard backside (cooler / waterblock mounting / m.2 access)? This opening will can be closed off via a cover plate that is flush mounted to the back panel. To accommodate the flush mount, the motherboard standoffs would have to be slightly taller. What do you think?
 

Sebbie

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
253
In the A4 you need to take the motherboard out to access rhe back. I don't think it's a big deal.
What you mean? Why do you want to access that? I think it would be hassle.
Look at the Ncase M1 easy access of the back with the removal of the sidepanel
 

Buttoneer

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
127
My 2c; I don't know how common it is for M2 slots to be on the back of motherboards but it would have dual effect of making it difficult to swap out and also reducing airflow for cooling.

Having said that, I've not had cause to look at mine for three years.
 

Talyrius

Gawd
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Messages
552
Almost all of the ITX boards I've looked at have M.2 slots on the back. Having to completely remove the motherboard in order to gain access to the M.2 slot and the backside of the CPU mounting socket would be a PITA that I'd like to avoid, if possible.

We'd also be losing cable management space...
 
Last edited:

dondan

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
1,742
Talyrius: You will not lose cable management space because you can route the cable first and than install the motherboard over it.
 

ranix

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Messages
154
Not sure about other people but I rarely remove my MB... so yes this solution is less user-friendly but I would rather have better thermal or better anything and have to deal with the trouble of losing 1 hr every year if I need to upgrade my ssd if I can enjoy a better solution during this year long.

If we can t having it all, then this is at least for me ok.
 

Buttoneer

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
127
Some of the AIO's have big ol' back plates which need to be accommodated - I assume standard mobo standoff's are good enough?. Plus side - if the M2 cards are right up against the side panel maybe you have found yourself a big heatsink.
 

thed00d

Weaksauce
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
69
IF dondan is going to keep the side I/O I don't think it is going to be that risky. As I said (on most scenarios) the case is not that close to the user.

View attachment 86114


Daily suggestion - Feet variants:
View attachment 86115
My humble opinion is that the original angled feet look the best, but if that doesn't work I'll still be happy with the A4 style feet. (I'm not too convinced on either of the variants above). Thoughts?
I really like the angled 2 version


I have a new question for you:

Whould it be a problem if the motherboard standoff will be a part of the side panel? This means you can't remove the panel without removing the motherboard. The advantage would be, that I don't need the middleplate. Then I will redesign the inner body that will have a bottom where you can screw the radiator. This will make mounting radiators much easier.

Disadvantages:
- you have to unscrew the motherboard to get access to its backside

Advantages:
- increasing stiffness of the case
- easier installation process for radiators
as long as I can still use the same cables I already shortened for the A4, whatever you change inside is fine with me - but I don't want to have to buy new longer cables just to shorten them again
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
21
Some of the AIO's have big ol' back plates which need to be accommodated - I assume standard mobo standoff's are good enough?. Plus side - if the M2 cards are right up against the side panel maybe you have found yourself a big heatsink.
Or a short.
Also you don't need to cool NAND flash. All you want to cool is the controller chip. NAND flash has higher endurance when it's running at higher temps. Cause the energy and thus voltage needed to tunnel charges onto the isolated control gate is lower at higher temperatures, which in turn means less damage to the oxide layer in between per program-erase-cycle.
Look at this. Only the controller really gets hot. What those copper stickers on Samsung SSDs do is spread that heat over the NAND chips, cooling the controller while heating the NAND.
 
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
15
I prefer the angled feet, or the jonsbo style feet with just the single vand going across the bottom, other than that, good luck!
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
21
AlMiDaX
The problem is ONLY the area that the feet enclose. As long as it's the same or smaller than the original (assuming same height of the center of gravity), it won't change anything for stability.
It's the marked area (and by extension the angle) that determines how much angular (tipping) momentum the case can take without toppling over. (More rubber might slightly dampen impacts for our benefit)
So if you place the A4 or NZXT feet where you did, basically nothing would change.
Oh I made a small mistake. The height of the feet obviously change that angle too. The higher the feet, the smaller the angle becomes.
So three conflicting design goals:

stability: as low as possible with as wide a base as possible
design: low with a narrow base for the current design
cooling: as high as possible

Daily business in engineering: Dealing with multilemmas :D
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
21
Definitely needs to be tested. The smaller heat-sink surface area might affect cooling but a Push/Pull config (w/ 15mm fans) seems totally doable.
Hopefully it's not going to be loud.
Push pull is pointless, especially on a thin radiator.

What are you gaining from push pull is more static pressure.
What you're losing from using low profile fans is static pressure.
What you're gaining from using a low profile radiator is lower pressure drop -> higher airflow.

It makes no sense to use push pull in this scenario (it rarely does in general). Just use a normal thickness fan with higher static pressure.

The only scenario where push pull is relevant is when you have very thick radiators so you need the extra static pressure to mitigate the already bad return on investment on high radiator thickness.



So all this means Dan could make the case a bit smaller, but then it would mandate the use of this radiator and no other.
 

Synomenon

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Messages
7,649
USB3.1 Gen2 front panel port completely off the table then for this case? I haven't read of any updates on that.
 

AlMiDaX

Weaksauce
Joined
Oct 13, 2017
Messages
69
Push pull is pointless, especially on a thin radiator.

What are you gaining from push pull is more static pressure.
What you're losing from using low profile fans is static pressure.
What you're gaining from using a low profile radiator is lower pressure drop -> higher airflow.

It makes no sense to use push pull in this scenario (it rarely does in general). Just use a normal thickness fan with higher static pressure.

The only scenario where push pull is relevant is when you have very thick radiators so you need the extra static pressure to mitigate the already bad return on investment on high radiator thickness.



So all this means Dan could make the case a bit smaller, but then it would mandate the use of this radiator and no other.
Dude, we are talking about options, as long as it's optional I wouldn't call it pointless.
There are several tests that clearly show the benefit of a push/pull config. Will it work on this case? I don't know, that's why I said it should be tested at least.
I 'm pretty sure nobody asked Dan to change the design or to make it smaller.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
21
Dude, we are talking about options, as long as it's optional I wouldn't call it pointless.
There are several tests that clearly show the benefit of a push/pull config. Will it work on this case? I don't know, that's why I said it should be tested at least.
I 'm pretty sure nobody asked Dan to change the design or to make it smaller.
What I'm trying to say is: It's probably not worth it because push+pull might give you a slight bonus (read: diminishing returns) normally with additional same thickness fans (read: by sacrificing additional 25mm space) but it's probably not gonna do much in this case cause we're swapping better performing thicker fans with low profiles ones.
As long as you don't have to change the design and it fits, you're of course free to test it yourself. But I'm against making Daniel test any weird configuration we can come up with (including ordering all the parts needed from the development budget). This project is taking long enough as it is. You can't test for every use case a user can think of.

Car manufacturers don't test the ballistic behavior or airborne cars for example. It's a legitimate use case for film making. But it's a niche use case.
Using one single (not yet) available slim radiator with push+pull low profile fans (which there are about enough options to count with the fingers of one hand) IS a niche use case.
I'm sure it's interesting data, and I'm kinda curious if my predictions are correct, but I really wouldn't conduct these tests in the scope of the product development process.

But that's just my humble opinion. Sorry if I read intentions into your comment that you didn't actually have.
 

TinySeth

n00b
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
6
I have the Dan's A4 v2 case. Loving that case. One of the reasons why I love that case is how clean it is debranded.
Is slapping Dan logo on it set in stone? because reasons.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
587
I haven't followed this case since the beginning... I apologize for a mistimed and uninformed comment, but I still don't get why the graphics card has to be upside down. Why not just flip the case and move the AIO to the bottom?
 

AlMiDaX

Weaksauce
Joined
Oct 13, 2017
Messages
69
I haven't followed this case since the beginning... I apologize for a mistimed and uninformed comment, but I still don't get why the graphics card has to be upside down. Why not just flip the case and move the AIO to the bottom?
Actually you can flip the case, go to page 17 to see both orientations.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
587
Actually you can flip the case, go to page 17 to see both orientations.
I know, but then you have to intake from the top, which isn't good for dust and would look bad with dust filters. I meant keep the AIO on the bottom but flip everything else. The hanging graphics card bothers me, structurally and aesthetically. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but it's a deal-breaker for me, and I also don't get the reason for it.
 

AlMiDaX

Weaksauce
Joined
Oct 13, 2017
Messages
69
I know, but then you have to intake from the top, which isn't good for dust and would look bad with dust filters. I meant keep the AIO on the bottom but flip everything else. The hanging graphics card bothers me, structurally and aesthetically. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but it's a deal-breaker for me, and I also don't get the reason for it.
You don't "have to" intake from the top, it's optional, it depends on fan orientation.
Just imagine the setup below but with the fans pushing the air upwards.

128487_20180522_211820.jpg
 

Notional

n00b
Joined
Oct 13, 2017
Messages
34
I read Dan will get back to it next week. There is one thing I'm thinking: I'm going to have the case oriented as shown above. With the GPU showing on the left side. There are two things I would like to do in that setup:

  1. Have the radiator screwed right into the chassis, with the fans above, right under the top panel. So opposite of what the picture above is showing.
  2. With the PSU backside at the very bottom of the case, I see no reason to have the internal extention cord adding cable clutter. Instead just have it plug straight into the PSU from the bottom, using an angled cord
    PXT101LX.B.jpg
    It looks like the clearing will be enough. I just hope the feet on the case will have room for a cord to go between them (would with the rubber feet). Would be nice if the demci filters would support this somehow, including access to the on/off button of the PSU.
Idk what is going to happen with a front USB c connector. I know few ITX boards (so far) have them, but I'd still rather have that than front panel audio connectors. But it's not a dealbreaker at all. I do think we will get very high speed external drives be normal, that can easily be held back by USB 3.
 

Necere

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Messages
2,742
I haven't followed this case since the beginning... I apologize for a mistimed and uninformed comment, but I still don't get why the graphics card has to be upside down. Why not just flip the case and move the AIO to the bottom?
I believe dondan did it that way to make routing the tubing easier. Between the GPU, riser, and PSU, there isn't a lot of room coming from that direction.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
587
I believe dondan did it that way to make routing the tubing easier. Between the GPU, riser, and PSU, there isn't a lot of room coming from that direction.
That makes sense... I have a weird feeling that when the case releases, more people will use it in AIO-on-top orientation than otherwise.

I prefer your version of this general layout that you've been showing on SFFForum, it suits my needs better. I hope you're still working on that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dglow
like this

thed00d

Weaksauce
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
69
I read Dan will get back to it next week. There is one thing I'm thinking: I'm going to have the case oriented as shown above. With the GPU showing on the left side. There are two things I would like to do in that setup:

  1. Have the radiator screwed right into the chassis, with the fans above, right under the top panel. So opposite of what the picture above is showing.
  2. With the PSU backside at the very bottom of the case, I see no reason to have the internal extention cord adding cable clutter. Instead just have it plug straight into the PSU from the bottom, using an angled cord View attachment 96755 It looks like the clearing will be enough. I just hope the feet on the case will have room for a cord to go between them (would with the rubber feet). Would be nice if the demci filters would support this somehow, including access to the on/off button of the PSU.
Idk what is going to happen with a front USB c connector. I know few ITX boards (so far) have them, but I'd still rather have that than front panel audio connectors. But it's not a dealbreaker at all. I do think we will get very high speed external drives be normal, that can easily be held back by USB 3.
I honestly prefer the internal design to be just like the A4s, because of people (like me) already having shortened Power Cables - which might not fit anymore, if the PSU will get relocated. As of now Dan said it would still fit, as the distance between and relative locations on PSU and Mainboard are just as in the A4
 

00101

n00b
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
3
Sorry if this has been answered previously. With the case being able to accommodate a 240 rad, will this be able to fit two 120 AIOs? One for CPU and one for GPU?
 
Last edited:
Top