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Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by dondan, Sep 22, 2017.
I still check reddit /r/sffpc, SFF Network Forum, and here.
I must've been slept in a cave too much. Thanks for the tip!
Maybe I have a crazy idea. What whould you say if I make everything possible. This means C4 sandwich layout + classic Layout in one case, support for all GPUs up to 3 Slot in classic layout and 2,75 Slot for sandwich layout. Support für big heatsinks like Noctua C14 or U9S and 240 AIOs. This case would have a size of (149 (W) x 237,5 x (H) x 310 (L) = 11L. It would be a exteme flexible case.
That is... Ambitious. It's possible though? Changes the tagline from AIO cpu + gpu to more like flexible design or something. Dan Case F4??
dondan I have to say that I'm not super happy to see the case getting bigger and bigger (it's getting a little too similar to the M1), at this point you might also want to support 3.5" drives (just kidding). I'm still trying to figure out what's the point of a 3-slot card in an SFF case, seriously.
Granted, it's ok to be flexible BUT I feel like you've gone a little too far.
That's just my humble opinion! I still love the "old" prototypes, hopefully future C4 revisions can get closer to the initial idea, as of now I'm kinda losing interest in buying the case but I'll be following its progress (keep us posted!).
Most of the new "mainstream" nvidia RTX 2060 are tripple slot. A few 590 are tripple slot, too. Upcoming Ryzen 3000 got more cores and the tdp is rising.
Started to visualize the new idea in CAD:
dondan It's a cool idea but as I've said, it's probably not for me. Pretty sure others may find it quite interesting.
Flowmotion RTX Founder Edition cards are factory overclocked they perform pretty nicely. Also, buying a 3 slot "mainstream" gpu is kinda weird I must say.
People want high end hardware, and they want silence. This requires larger heatsinks and/or aio support. That so many are fine with using AIOs in SFF case design but balk at the idea of a thicker GPU or the ability to use aftermarket coolers -- a major success in the M1's design -- seems odd to me. GPUs are often the hottest components in a computer, the desire to cool them well makes total sense to me.
Furthermore, the change in footprint or volume is not tremendous. We're talking about 1 liter in difference, and it opens up a vast amount of possibilities in hardware layout. That seems like a fine compromise.
This looks like convergent evolution. Although it's starting to look like the Ncase M1, Necere made his case with first and foremost the purpose of custom watercooling so it's interesting to see how this case will evolve.
That do-it-all design is brilliant, the only problem would be explaining to people all the different things it can do! The One Case to rule them all!
I originally pointed to the problem with 2-2½ PCI slots, primarily because of RTX cards. But outright 3 slots might be too much actually.
I really like the original idea of the C4: An A4 with 24cm AIO support, pcb PCI extension and a slim small frame. With the classic layout, the case gets too fat/wide and ends up with a layout too similar to the NCase M1. To me, the C4 was brilliant, because it was right inbetween the A4 and M1. The new layout just seems like a different M1.
Also, I will have my case on the right side, with the GPU facing left. And I prefer the radiator on top for proper exhaust, creating that nice windtunnel effect throughout the case. That option seems to be gone with the classic layout. And I really miss the unique side IO. I looked forward to pressing that power button on the lower left side, making it completely unique. I guess that won't happen anymore.
I think AMD Navi and enough RTX 2080/ti cards are 2-2½ slots to keep it as it is. I know it makes it more difficult with RTX 2080ti's with good coolers and having a glass panel to show it off at the same time, but SFF will always carry compromises. I just think people wanting/needing the classic layout would benefit more with the M1 anyways.
My point is simple: got my new 2080 3slot for 500 euro. It is zero fan, but under load you can hear the fans. So you tell me to go to a slower, louder 2 slot design for 700 bucks? The problem is the size. The smaller the case, the lower the selection of componets and cooling possibilities. But now we are talking about some ncase M1.
We need a case with more possibilities but no ncase clone
Do we need some 9900k OC + 2080 Ti OC + watercooled + mini itx case? There is no 200-300 watt itx mainboard for an 9900k. ITX is limited to 200 watt (maybee the x299 Asrock itx provides more power?). The next gen ryzen 3000 serie is raising the tdp limit above 110 watt and intels 12core 14nm cpu might raise the tdp limit too. The upper limit for cpu cooling is about 120-200 watt ~ 240mm radiator. And now you can buy the new xspc tx serie which is ultrathin.
Most of the 12nm 2000er series of nvidia is limited to 300 watt (less than 1000er gpus) and now the aio edition got some 240mm radiator aka inno3d ichill black edition. It might be to thick.
So you are that rich kid who buys the best hardware and you dont like custom modding or watercooling. You can simply put the 9999k AiO and 2080 Ti Ultra AiO in this new case and it runs flawless (not silent).
Wo setzt man die Grenze?
Flowmotion to be fair your original comment was about "mainstream" cards being triple slot, since when the RTX 2080 is considered mainstream? Anyhow, as I've told you earlier the Founder Edition cards are factory overclocked, if you check the benchmarks you will see that they perform similarly as most aftermarket cards (also cooling and noise is improved thanks to the two axial fan VS the blower fan in previous gen).
With that said, I have no interest to convince you on which layout is "best", it's ok to have different needs/priorities. Ultimately, Dan will opt for what he considers to be best for the majority.
Also, please, no need to make silly assumptions of me being that "rich kid", you clearly don't know who I am, try to be respectful. Sich kümmern!
This "rich kid" mode wasnt meant for you. Its about buying some finished products. You buy, assemble an be happy. No custom watercooling modding. Buy + run.
Please dont say "2 slot is enough". There is no 4 slot card. The frontline is 3 slot. Next: the max lenght is not 50cm, its about 33cm. The strongest psu sfx-l 800w from silverstone is enough. There is no need to go higher or switch to atx.
So variant A: ncase clone, vartiant B: slightly bigger to fit one 280mm radiator or variant C: completly different.
dondan Any update? What are you currently working on? Keep us posted
Alas, ultra-SFF with TOTL components is dead. Long live SFF.
If you weren't already aware, all of the discussion on this has moved over to the SFF Forum.
I can only assume that having the motherboard and gpu on the same side is to make the case as compatible as possible for both air- and water-cooling. Not sure if doing an AIO- / watercooling-focused case would be economically viable, but I would much prefer to have a tall version of the A4 over the C4. I am not too much of a fan of hiding the motherboard, block, ram etc behind the gpu. What speaks against a taller version of the A4? I am also not a fan of the Ghost S1, yes it's modular, but the top / bottom hats are not seamless, it will always look more like an afterthought than a purpose-built item.
My ideal case, from bottom to top: decent sized feet, 2x 120mm 25mm fans intake, ITX motherboard and PSU on one side, GPU on the other side, then either AIO with push-pull / thick rad with single fans or just AIO + single fans, thin rad + single fans. Ofc making the case wide enough for 140mm fans / 280mm radiator would be nice, but not sure many would prefer that over the slimmer one, but who knows. I would personally put some demciflex at the bottom underneath and on the inside of the top panel (maybe), glass on both sides as an option. That would be my ideal case. The Sliger SM570 / SM580 are quite close but I hate having my case on the left
This dual layout design doesn’t really make sense. It’s a design with greater complexity, increased cost to manufacture with very little reward - half a pcie slot. I would just say keep it so it’s only the 3-slot layout … but then it’s an NCASE M1. Different styling, slightly smaller but still an M1.
And that’s the greatest issue you’re designing for a problem which already has a solution. For a 3 slot gpu, 240mm rad, m-itx mobo and sfx psu the optimum layout and size is an NCASE M1.
I would say to stick with your original design concept, and just accept that whatever you do some people will be disappointed. Otherwise go slightly bigger; at about 13-14L I reckon its possible to have an m-atx motherboard, 4x pcie slots and sfx psu (all air cooled, maybe 140mm aio for cpu) but then be able to double up as a tricked-out m-itx case with triple slot gpu, sfx psu and (possibly) dual 240mm rads.
That would give you a challenge as the designer, keep the triple slot community happy and potentially open it up to more users with m-atx support.