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DAN A4-SFX: The smallest gaming case in the world
- Thread starter dondan
- Start date
And reduce dependence on plastic (the clips), which could be good for longevity I think.
Aibohphobia
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What temps are you getting?
Whenever the post office gets around to delivering mine I'll be testing it with my 5930K so we'll see if their 130W are true or just optimistic marketing nonsense.
I also vote for panel screws, for the reasons others above me said. And the case is already a bit too tall, more than it needs to be, IMHO. For the life of me, i can't understand why so many mm lost just for the pci riser bend radius, above the mobo. And if you'll use screws, maybe you could cut and shorten the bends (where the clips were attached), to make the mobo installation easier (in case you decide to shave a few mms from the top).
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JoeOnePack
Limp Gawd
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Screws are fine for me too.. if it saves on cost and allows the same footprint, I'm not complaining.
It could be the orientation of the vapor chamber. I know my AXP100 is much more effective when mounted horizontally so the heat pipes can function as intended rather than vertically mounted as in my L2. Noctua actually has a warning on their page when vertically mounting their C-style heatsinks to avoid the orientation where pipe bends are at the top .
dondan
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Shorting the hight is not possible. 170mm motherboard over and under it 11.5mm free space (for cables and riser ) and 2x1.5mm material thickness.
Looking at the CPU contact after the second re-seating or so, only the edges of the CPU were touching it seems (so concave). I was using the credit card method with NT-H1 TIM btw. I also tried both Noctua and ID fans but neither made any difference. What did make any difference, and I fear this might be a problem in the A4 case, is the exhaust fan that's right above this cooler in my FT-03 case. That dropped temps by 2-4C.
To everyone else (because I'm not sure yet how to quote others within the same post..n00bie here lol) the orientation was of course vertical (in FT-03) and yes I spun this thing several different ways lol.
With my 3770K @ 4.2 with ~1.2v and blend test ( I know it's not a realistic load but it is the fastest way I knew of to compare the two coolers) I was still hitting 90C after only a few minutes, otherwise games and the like mostly stayed at or slightly below 75C (which, coming from huge tower heatsinks, is still to high to me).
I even decided to use the grain/rice? method for TIM thinking whatever void is in the middle would get filled in, and while this helped temps not shoot up so fast, it still eventually got up there. So now I'm going to put plastic washer on the 4 corners of the backplate behind the MB to try and bring the cooler in better contact and will report back later.
***If this deserves another thread, please let me know....apologies if this is way off topic/distracting from dondan's thread.***
Besides trying to get better CPU contact right now, this could be the only culprit I can think of if temps don't change at all. While I'm not sure how vapor chamber heat sinks would work vertically, those on the Titan coolers seemed to do just fine in any orientation (although I'm not entirely sure if the situations are similar).
Seeing as Noctua isn't in the business of selling crap heatsinks, that doesn't surprise me. A vapor chamber doesn't work magic after all.
These low height heatsinks seem to be primarily limited by airflow. A slim fan isn't going to set any records in the first place, it has to push air through very narrow fins and the heatsink is cowering mere millimeters above the CPU/mainboard.
Even if a vapor chamber is slightly more effective at transferring heat from the CPU to the heatsink fins, it doesn't matter if there's lacking ventilation to remove the heat from there.
Ok, thanks. I thought it was more from just looking at the renderings. Though, i still think you could shave a few mm from bottom and top.
Those damn mms. Something like 3-4mm from top and 5-7 mm from bottom. Especially at the bottom, where i don't see the need for 11.5 mm just for cable management. At the top i understand, it's that riser's bent radius, and that depends on its flexibility and total length. But at the bottom, the only problem i see is the pci bracket conflicting with the power plug socket; but if that's the case, i think the power socket could be moved above the pci bracket, at the top of the case.
dondan
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The problem is how longer you work with a cad in small dimensions you begin to think that 1mm is like 1 meter.
The PCI Bracket doesn't have contact with the AC-Outlet. There are some millimeters between it.
The PCI Bracket doesn't have contact with the AC-Outlet. There are some millimeters between it.
I can second this. My primary display is 24" and when working (often zoomed in a lot for detail work) you get a false sense of impression, especially if you've worked on a particular design for weeks or even months.
When I picked up my first prototype I was stunned when I first saw it standing on the desk waiting for me. I think the first thought was something like "no that's not it" and I kept looking around for my case, and when they pointed at it I was like "uhh, what... that can't be right". It was just so darn small. And mine is far bigger than dondan's case (roughly 10L). First time dondan saw his case he probably thought it was a cellphone or something.
iFreilicht
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Wouldn't be so sure about that. When using screws you have to either cut the thread into the aluminium, or use press in threads like Nova does. The first option is cheap, but as aluminium is quite a soft metal, people tend to put too much torque on the screw and ruin the thread very fast. Press in threads are very good in terms of longevity, but will increase the cost and it may be hard to get that done with LianLi as a manufacturer, as they rarely use press ins in their cases from what I remember.
Aibohphobia
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Self-clinching nuts will add a bit to the cost of Lian Li can do it, the M1 V2 and V3 has them for the side bracket mounting holes.
I continued the conversation over in the OC & cooling forum, but basically the problem was that the base of the cooler was not making full contact with the CPU (specifically its center) which resulted in bad temps.
So now I'm going to try to exchange and hope this problem is only limited to just the cooler I received.
iFreilicht
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Ah, good to know. "Self-clinching nuts", that's what they were called! I only remembered the german name for it
so i created an account just to make a reply on this thread... im really wondering why no one wants to create a very tiny case, having sfx power supply and mini lenght video card, 2x slots for 2,5 inch drives, maximum 60mm cooler. Sooner or later companies want to have their products in tiny edition, so a case that has all of this components can be upgraded anytime.
ps : dan ur case looks very nice, but i really wanted it to be smaller
ps : dan ur case looks very nice, but i really wanted it to be smaller
dondan
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Smaller with the same gpu length and sfx is impossible.
Barbarian_PT
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Dory, that is not the point in here. The point is to have flexibility with the GPU's and good cooling, by having all component sucking air directly from the exterior of the case. I want a small case, but I prefer one that I can upgrade components, and not being limited to 4 or 5 products in the market, like GPU's.
You are talking about a different product. I saw somewhere in the main SFF forum a case like SG05, but shorter.
You are talking about a different product. I saw somewhere in the main SFF forum a case like SG05, but shorter.
I can tell you, with those feature requirements, regardless of how you arrange things the smallest it can get is still about 7 liters.
I'm people and I'm not.
@dan
Don't you change anything about this case. Just get it to the market ASAP. Or in the eternal words of Philip J. Fry: "Shut up and take my money!"
@Dory & Necere - I believe that's what theGryphon is trying to make here A 6lt mITX Cube Design
So 6.5L it is minimum you can do without a riser
If you want a smallest possible mITX/GTX970 mini combo you could go for a TFX power supply and dondan's gpu behind motherboard approach, put TFX next to both and you'll have dimensions like 243x175x94mm making it 4L case. But that doesn't count in the wiring hell and proper drive mount. Eventually you'll end up with a 4.5L or even 5L case.
Dondan's case is I believe the ultimate cube design limiting only the cpu cooler height and there's not much you can do better here unless you want a riserless, more cube-like case.
So 6.5L it is minimum you can do without a riser
If you want a smallest possible mITX/GTX970 mini combo you could go for a TFX power supply and dondan's gpu behind motherboard approach, put TFX next to both and you'll have dimensions like 243x175x94mm making it 4L case. But that doesn't count in the wiring hell and proper drive mount. Eventually you'll end up with a 4.5L or even 5L case.
Dondan's case is I believe the ultimate cube design limiting only the cpu cooler height and there's not much you can do better here unless you want a riserless, more cube-like case.
JoeOnePack
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Building a smaller case with a mini GPU and an SFX PSU is nearly, physically impossible. Maybe a half liter difference at best.
The only way to achieve a smaller size is to use a DC-DC powerboard like an HDPlex and run an external power adapter, otherwise the case cannot be shortened.
dondan
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As i see for some project here and also for my project you start with much less liter as the end-result will be.
The reason is in the CAD it looks very easy but you forget you need space for wireing and mounting. If you have the aim to bring the case on market there are also some other reasons that are increasing the size e.g. support for different psu's, gpu's and coolers. Furthermore the manufracture must be abel to build you creation and the price must be low. All these points will increase the size.
I think the main advantage of the A4-SFX is the full length gpu and sfx support. What do you do if the next gpu generation making a big step to manage 4k resolution which result in the situation of higher power consumtion, more heat and a larger layout? In a mini GPU case the new cards wouldn't be fit, because they are too large, but the A4-SFX will have no problems with them.
The reason is in the CAD it looks very easy but you forget you need space for wireing and mounting. If you have the aim to bring the case on market there are also some other reasons that are increasing the size e.g. support for different psu's, gpu's and coolers. Furthermore the manufracture must be abel to build you creation and the price must be low. All these points will increase the size.
I think the main advantage of the A4-SFX is the full length gpu and sfx support. What do you do if the next gpu generation making a big step to manage 4k resolution which result in the situation of higher power consumtion, more heat and a larger layout? In a mini GPU case the new cards wouldn't be fit, because they are too large, but the A4-SFX will have no problems with them.
iFreilicht
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I think there will still be mITX sized GPUs in the future, but that doesn't change anything about the point that sacrificing GPU length will give close to no advantages whatsoever.
dondan
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Yes because there are two shields between it and gpu. One plastic and a aluminium shield. A msata ssd can handle 60-70°C but i think we are more in the 30-40°C area in this case.
When thinking about screws, I think of what LianLi use on the o-series:
http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-o5/
Some kind of thumb screws for the tempered glass panels? Would also make it possible for people to create their own glass/acrylic panels. Just a thought. Not sure about it.
Ok, let's see.
Barbarian_PT
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Holes and glass/acrylic, aren't a good mix.
Aibohphobia
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BTW, El-Dubya contacted ID Cooling and it looks like they're working on a upgraded version, presumably QC issues with the concave base.
I got mine and went ahead and tested it, it can handle 130W but just barely. But once they get the QC issues sorted it should be a good alternative to the Noctua L9i for 115x.
I got mine and went ahead and tested it, it can handle 130W but just barely. But once they get the QC issues sorted it should be a good alternative to the Noctua L9i for 115x.
Hear, hear.
Just because nVidia could deliver a short version of their second (third, counting Titan) best GPU for the last three generations doesn't make this a guarantee for the future.
And AMD hasn't been able to deliver a short enthusiast card at all. But the 290x is crazy good value atm.
Realistically, the A4 is probably only going to sell a few hundred units - if that. Reducing that tiny market further by limiting the case to short GPUs (I wouldn't buy it then) just to save 5% volume is just not good business.
People don't realize that it's expensive to actually bring these custom cases to market. Aibo posted some numbers in the Kimera thread and we're talking a few thousand bucks. So this is not just some nerds and their hobbies, this is a financial investment.
Speaking of Aibo...
What ambient temps did you have?
80c on a 130w CPU seems very reasonable for such a tiny cooler. As I said before, a vapor chamber isn't magic.
It should do marginally better in the A4 because of the fresh air. Mildly overclocking a Haswell should be well within the capabilities of such a setup. The "world's smallest gaming case" was never going to house record-breaking overclocks anyway and there isn't any real world difference between 4,2 and 4,5 Ghz.
God I'm looking forward to owning this case.
Aibohphobia
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15.7°C ambient. I'm satisfied with the temps I got, I don't think they actually expected anyone to use this thing on a 130W CPU
That's running Prime also, I'll need to test something more realistic like Unigine Valley.
Oh, just under 16c. Or as Canadians call it: midsummer.
That's chillier than I expected. People in warm climates might have a hard time cooling 130w CPUs (like overclocked Haswells) with this heatsink then. Then again, Prime is not realistic load anyway.
goodbyegalaxy
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Have you tried using a 25mm fan with the NH-L9i? The combined height should be exactly 48mm and hopefully fits perfectly.
The NH-L9i comes with mounting screws for a 25mm fan but I can't find any benchmarks of anyone using them - just one mention in the dvtests review that a 25mm fan was "2°C to 4°C lower temperatures for the cores but it was loud". I would have imagined the larger fan would be quieter given the roughly similar temps. But he also didn't say exactly which fan he used - there is a 25mm version of the 14mm fan that comes with the cooler (NF-A9 PWM) but if he was using a completely different fan the comparison doesn't mean much without knowing what it was.
The NH-L9i comes with mounting screws for a 25mm fan but I can't find any benchmarks of anyone using them - just one mention in the dvtests review that a 25mm fan was "2°C to 4°C lower temperatures for the cores but it was loud". I would have imagined the larger fan would be quieter given the roughly similar temps. But he also didn't say exactly which fan he used - there is a 25mm version of the 14mm fan that comes with the cooler (NF-A9 PWM) but if he was using a completely different fan the comparison doesn't mean much without knowing what it was.
Barbarian_PT
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I tried to change the AXP-100 fan for a Noctua 25 mm 2.000 rpm fan and the noise was higher and the cooling almost the same.