DAN A4-SFX: The smallest gaming case in the world

dondan said:
I think the main advantage of the A4-SFX is the full length gpu and sfx support. What do you do if the next gpu generation making a big step to manage 4k resolution which result in the situation of higher power consumtion, more heat and a larger layout? In a mini GPU case the new cards wouldn't be fit, because they are too large, but the A4-SFX will have no problems with them.
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Hear, hear.

Just because nVidia could deliver a short version of their second (third, counting Titan) best GPU for the last three generations doesn't make this a guarantee for the future.

And AMD hasn't been able to deliver a short enthusiast card at all. But the 290x is crazy good value atm.

Realistically, the A4 is probably only going to sell a few hundred units - if that. Reducing that tiny market further by limiting the case to short GPUs (I wouldn't buy it then) just to save 5% volume is just not good business.

People don't realize that it's expensive to actually bring these custom cases to market. Aibo posted some numbers in the Kimera thread and we're talking a few thousand bucks. So this is not just some nerds and their hobbies, this is a financial investment.

Speaking of Aibo...

Aibohphobia said:
I got mine and went ahead and tested it, it can handle 130W but just barely.
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What ambient temps did you have?

80c on a 130w CPU seems very reasonable for such a tiny cooler. As I said before, a vapor chamber isn't magic.

It should do marginally better in the A4 because of the fresh air. Mildly overclocking a Haswell should be well within the capabilities of such a setup. The "world's smallest gaming case" was never going to house record-breaking overclocks anyway and there isn't any real world difference between 4,2 and 4,5 Ghz.

God I'm looking forward to owning this case.
 
babadook said:
What ambient temps did you have?

80c on a 130w CPU seems very reasonable for such a tiny cooler. As I said before, a vapor chamber isn't magic.
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15.7°C ambient. I'm satisfied with the temps I got, I don't think they actually expected anyone to use this thing on a 130W CPU :D

That's running Prime also, I'll need to test something more realistic like Unigine Valley.
 
Aibohphobia said:
15.7°C ambient. I'm satisfied with the temps I got, I don't think they actually expected anyone to use this thing on a 130W CPU
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Oh, just under 16c. Or as Canadians call it: midsummer.

That's chillier than I expected. People in warm climates might have a hard time cooling 130w CPUs (like overclocked Haswells) with this heatsink then. Then again, Prime is not realistic load anyway.
 
There is a short R9 285 (Sapphire's) which although isn't reference, does exist.
 
Have you tried using a 25mm fan with the NH-L9i? The combined height should be exactly 48mm and hopefully fits perfectly.

The NH-L9i comes with mounting screws for a 25mm fan but I can't find any benchmarks of anyone using them - just one mention in the dvtests review that a 25mm fan was "2°C to 4°C lower temperatures for the cores but it was loud". I would have imagined the larger fan would be quieter given the roughly similar temps. But he also didn't say exactly which fan he used - there is a 25mm version of the 14mm fan that comes with the cooler (NF-A9 PWM) but if he was using a completely different fan the comparison doesn't mean much without knowing what it was.
 
I tried to change the AXP-100 fan for a Noctua 25 mm 2.000 rpm fan and the noise was higher and the cooling almost the same.
 
@Barbarian_PT: The reason is that 8% of the air will not go directly into the headsink, because the fan is a bit bigger. If you use a adapter the temps should be better.

@goodbyegalaxy: Yes this will fit. I will test it when i have the prototype. To check the effect on temperatures.

@DG25: I think this will take some weeks, because there are many things to plan with them. Furthermore the time lag/time difference make this process a bit difficult.
 
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@dondan, just a heads-up, in English there's an additional 'e' at the end of "prototype". I know it's spelled "Prototyp" in German, but it cracks me up everytime you write it that way :D
 
goodbyegalaxy said:
The NH-L9i comes with mounting screws for a 25mm fan but I can't find any benchmarks of anyone using them
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SPCR did, and concluded that the 25mm thick Noctua 92 unfortunately didn't improve the temperatures (and wasn't quieter either - take a look at the table at the bottom of the page and remember to compare sound pressure levels, not rpm).
 
backfeed said:
SPCR did, and concluded that the 25mm thick Noctua 92 unfortunately didn't improve the temperatures (and wasn't quieter either - take a look at the table at the bottom of the page and remember to compare sound pressure levels, not rpm).
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It may be worthwhile to try the new 25mm thick Noctua NF-A9 PWM to see if it's any quieter. I think that the fan SPCR used is not that great on cpu heatsinks and was more geared towards a quiet case fan. To be honest, I would be more comfortable with a 25-mm fan than a slim 14-15mm fan longevity wise especially for a cpu cooler.
 
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Barbarian_PT said:
Did you had many fan's with longevity problems?
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My experience with fan quality:

1: About 1 year ago I had to get replacement fans for my Twin Frozr II cooler because one failed completely and the other started to rattle a lot. Cheap and easy fix though and luckily the software protects the gpu from overheating. Games just crashed before it cooked.
2: I've had 2 cooler master fans die on me. They were stock fans supplied with the CM 690II case. Died about 3 years after purchase within 3 months of each other. One was a 140mm led fan and the other was a standard black 120mm fan.
3: I had a fan on a stock amd x2 cooler die on my many many years ago. The PC just shut down almost immediately after booting.

I know there are known issues with the twin frozr II fans, but still... Though I've been unlucky you can expect fans to fail. At least cheap ones.

That being said, no piece of hardware has ever died on me due to this. If a critical fan fails, you'll know before it's too late.
 
The static pressure on the new Noctua NF-A9 PWM has better static pressure and runs at a lower rpm speed than the stock slim fan on the NHL-9I cpu cooler. At 1550 rpm (Low-Noise adapter cable), the NF-A9 is not much worse in static pressure and has better airflow than the stock slim fan.
 
Dan, have you taken a poll about sticker vs milling the logo since you came up with the latest logo design? With the old logo I would have preferred a sticker, but the new one looks very professional and really adds balance to the front of the case.

I don't want to dig up something that has already been solved, but I was wondering if anyone else would have changed their vote after seeing the new logo?
 
Dondan I want to voice my support for this case. I've been lurking in this thread for several weeks now. Depending on your final price when you move this to crowd funding (the closer you get to $150 with shipping, the better) I will back this product.

Still waiting on updated thermals of the video card and CPU when under load. Thanks again!
 
@goofbyegalaxy: The logo will be like on the rendered pictures on the first post in this thread. For the prototype I made the decision to make a milled logo. But for the final product it isn't final.

@tviceman: Actual i haven't a final price but i hope so too :) I will give you thermal test if i got the prototype.
 
So guys I have some new information about the prices of the case for you.

The prototype will cost $2900. The price is so high because the tooling fee of the front I/O $1200.
I am not sure if i should pay it by my own. Maybe I will fund the tooling fee.

The price of one singl case without shipping and tax to US will be arround $220. Without the 3M riser the price will be arround $140. Are you ready to pay $220 for this case with 3M riser?

I try to get one LianLi style LiHeat risercable sample with non conductive tape to check if it will work with this case.
This will reduce the price of $220 to arround $160. The LiHeat is also PCIe Gen3 ready, but the risercable quality will not be the same.
 
dondan said:
The price of one singl case without shipping and tax to US will be arround $220. Without the 3M riser the price will be arround $140. Are you ready to pay $220 for this case with 3M riser?
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Which 3M riser is it? The 8KC3-0726-0250?

Honestly, I would prefer the option to buy the case without the riser if the riser increases the price by $80. I am quite sure that there will be some decent alternatives which cost less, and if there aren't, the price to buy the riser by itself is not much higher. However, if you will only offer the case with the riser, I will $220 + shipping/tax for it.
 
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I agree. I think it will be a lot simpler for you to just sell the case without a riser. People can easily order one online. Unless of course youd get a significantly lower bulk price for ordering 100+ those M3s.
 
It will be easier to pack and ship the case without the riser.

If you ship it with the riser you then have warranty problems if the riser fails. I would rather source the riser direct.
 
dondan said:
Are you ready to pay $220 for this case with 3M riser?

I try to get one LianLi style LiHeat risercable sample with non conductive tape to check if it will work with this case.
This will reduce the price of $220 to arround $160. The LiHeat is also PCIe Gen3 ready, but the risercable quality will not be the same.
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Been following this from day 1. It was always understood since the community influenced the flipped design that a high quality 3m riser would be rolled into the price. Yes, I am ready to pay for this.

But I'm also cheap and understand $60. I'd be very interested to know the performance and longevity difference between the liHeat and 3m cables.
 
dondan said:
The price of one singl case without shipping and tax to US will be arround $220. Without the 3M riser the price will be arround $140. Are you ready to pay $220 for this case with 3M riser?

I try to get one LianLi style LiHeat risercable sample with non conductive tape to check if it will work with this case.
This will reduce the price of $220 to arround $160. The LiHeat is also PCIe Gen3 ready, but the risercable quality will not be the same.
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FYI Lian Li is using Li-Heat sourced flex risers on their PC-Ox series, if that makes the decision any easier for you.
 
Ideally the case would ship with a riser cable, but honestly the 3M one seems absurdly expensive. I think it would be reasonable to ship the case with the Li-Heat cable; for only $20 extra we would have the option the start building right away. If someone wants to spend the extra $80 to upgrade the cable down the line, that option is still there.
 
FinnishNerdmare said:
I agree. I think it will be a lot simpler for you to just sell the case without a riser. People can easily order one online. Unless of course youd get a significantly lower bulk price for ordering 100+ those M3s.
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Bad idea, the functionality of this case is highly dependent on the riser, it should really ship with one that has the perfect length and is guaranteed to work well. The cheap alternatives are going to have a hard time with EMI sitting between two PCBs without shielding and I think there will be more support requests when people buy their own risers that don't work than when a riser is shipped with the case that has decent quality.

And yes, the quantity makes a huge difference: http://www.digikey.de/product-search/en?mpart=8KC3-0726-0250&vendor=19

1 piece: ~$81 UP
100 pieces: ~$66 UP
500 pieces: ~$63 UP

I would look into the Li-Heat risers, they seem to be quite reliable and can be ordered with custom lengths and different kinds of connectors.
 
I would prefer the risercard shipped with the case.

The first shop I found on Google has the prices and quantities:

1: 87,45 €
10: 75,03 €
50: 69,04 €
100: 64,44 €

Plus shipping.

If the Kickstarter yields at least 100 preorders, I'm looking at 30 Euros of extra cost for the case. And some minor hassle getting it and figuring out the best way to install it.

This looks like it could be the "last case I ever buy", so I don't mind 220 dollars and I'd opt for the 3m unless it turns out the Lian Li is not inferior.

By the way, I've always assumed there would be some sort of mounting mechanism for the risercard. Is there?
My point is: how is the graphics cards supported in the case? Is it just the PCI brackets? If so, is that enough for a heavy monster card like the Asus Strix or MSI TwinFrozer?
 
dondan said:
The prototype will cost $2900. The price is so high because the tooling fee of the front I/O $1200.
I am not sure if i should pay it by my own. Maybe I will fund the tooling fee.
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If you know what the final price for the case will be, you could start crowdfunding and sell pre-orders for the case (including enough in the price to cover the prototype fee).
 
Is that the bulk price for the 3M riser?

Also, does this mean that Lian Li are willing to do the job?
 
I think it's best to ship the case with the Lian Li riser if it's quality is good (enough) for normal gaming use (like w/ an GTX 980) without too much performance loss, which I assume, because Lian Li uses them in their own expensive O-series cases. Maybe the 3M riser has superior quality, but if you onl y have to pay $20 extra for the Lian Li it's still possible for the invidual buyer to upgrade to 3M. (Also, first post on the forum, dondan, you should already know me from german forum :D )
 
I would do a comparison of both the Li-Heat riser and 3M-riser when you receive the prototype from Lian-Li. That way, we can better decide whether or not the Li-Heat riser is good enough for gaming.
 
@babadook: On the first view it looks cheap if i order these quantities, but these prices are without tax so because I live in germany you can multiply the price with 1,19%.

Yes you can skrew the riser on the mainboard tray there are standoffs for it.
Yes the MSI TwinFrozer will fit.

@goodbyegalaxy: I wish it would be so easy. I will only start a crowdfunding for the series if I have a prototype before. So I am 100% sure that everything is ok. Financing the prototype with pre-orders is a too high risk.

@iFreilicht & Aircoookie: Changing to LiHeat will be only possible if i could get risercables with a non-conductive tape. The reason for this is that i route the cable behind the motherboard and a conductive tape can destroy the board. Furthermore the cables need a low bend radius like the 3M ones to fit into the case. My last samples of the LiHeat riser out of my german review http://www.computerbase.de/forum/showthread.php?t=1407425 doesn't have these properties.

@rawrr: Yes Lian Li will do the job.
 
Maybe you could add yourself some non-conductive tape on each cable shipped? :)

Or just make some kind of riser cable holders on the mobo tray, to keep it glued to the tray and not risk touching the mobo pcb. It could be like a piece of material that presses the cable to the tray. Another tray that sits on the existing tray, sandwiching the riser cable between them. This also increases the shielding, i think...

Imo, the 3m cable is way too expensive.
 
A sheet of insulating material e.g. Tyvek/Kapton (or insulating tape to apply to the riser cable) could work if the LiHeat cable is conductive.
 
dondan said:
@goodbyegalaxy: I wish it would be so easy. I will only start a crowdfunding for the series if I have a prototype before. So I am 100% sure that everything is ok. Financing the prototype with pre-orders is a too high risk.
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I can definitely respect that decision.

Perhaps you could still start a crowdfunding campaign with smaller backing levels (starting at $20 or so?) to fund the prototype. Make it clear that this is only for prototyping and that there is no guarantee the case will even be made - but IF the prototype is a success, there would be a small reward for backing the prototype. Something like a discount on the final case, or even just a small bonus like putting "Backer Edition" somewhere on the case.
 
I would be happy to contribute towards the cost of the prototype assuming that this is taken off the cost of the case when (if) it goes into production.
 
dondan said:
@babadook: On the first view it looks cheap if i order these quantities, but these prices are without tax so because I live in germany you can multiply the price with 1,19%.
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Me too. :)
Even if I multiply the prices by 1,19 the 30 Euro price difference remains ;)

Yes you can skrew the riser on the mainboard tray there are standoffs for it.
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Great.

Now get that Kickstarter up and running, I finally want to give you money!!!
 
dondan said:
@babadook: On the first view it looks cheap if i order these quantities, but these prices are without tax so because I live in germany you can multiply the price with 1,19%.

@goodbyegalaxy: I wish it would be so easy. I will only start a crowdfunding for the series if I have a prototype before. So I am 100% sure that everything is ok. Financing the prototype with pre-orders is a too high risk.

@iFreilicht & Aircoookie: Changing to LiHeat will be only possible if i could get risercables with a non-conductive tape. The reason for this is that i route the cable behind the motherboard and a conductive tape can destroy the board. Furthermore the cables need a low bend radius like the 3M ones to fit into the case. My last samples of the LiHeat riser out of my german review http://www.computerbase.de/forum/showthread.php?t=1407425 doesn't have these properties.
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Um, is the 3M riser non-conductive? I'm pretty sure if you order bulk, Li-Heat will be able to add a non-conductive layer to the riser. Also, when routing behind the mobo, I hope you included the thickness of the riser into the length of the mobo standoffs.

About taxes: The 19% Einfuhrumsatzsteuer, like many other taxes, can be deducted when you are a company and declare the goods bought as a business expense. So because you are buying the stuff for your business and the sole purpose of reselling, you can get the 19% back, effectively not paying the tax. Businesses are taxed in other ways.
I would highly recommend getting a tax lawyer at your side, because if you sell the case, and you don't pay taxes for the money you get, you're doing undeclared work, which is illegal in Germany. You will have to register as a business anyway, so there will be coming up a lot of work in that regard.

With Li-Heat, you'll probably be able to work around importing those risers entirely, as LianLi is already working together with them for their PC-O cases and they may be able to put the riser inside the case during manufacturing. I know about the bend radius problem, but it seems to me that the only critical bend is the one from underneath the motherboard to the other side. If that's the case, you could use an angled insertion so the riser has to bend not 180°, but 270° while at the same time increasing the space it has for bending.

Also, what do you mean by tooling cost for the front panel?
 
@DG25: Sorry the plan is that everything will be assemply by LianLi and I do only logistic and design. Furthermore I would like to deliver a very high standard of quality. It should be a high-end case with high-end riser for high-end hardware.

@All: I made the decision to buy the prototype by my own. I know it is very expensive, but I think it will be worth to make this investment to bring this idea to the next level.

To the riser discussion:
If i sell the case without a riser at the end everybody have to buy this riser by himself. The reason is, that actual there aren't any alternatives on the riser market, so you have to use the 3M one. Maybe I have to go in the first series with the 3M one and for the second series LiHeat optimized there products like we need it for the A4-SFX.
 
Customizing the LiHeat riser will also increase cost, therefore reducing the price difference to the 3M so it's probably better to go with 3M if the LiHeat riser doesn't work without modification :)
 
The 3M riser is too expensive and can ruin your project. Isn't there any alternative in the market? How about adding some plastic or rubber accessory to neutralize the conductivity? May be the difference between you selling 100 cases and 1000 cases...
 
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