Considering a 5600 XT

Snowdog

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It is, quite frankly, laughable that anyone uses RT or DLSS as a factor in their buying purchases given the almost universal lack of support for games when they launch. Months down the road you "might" get a patch to enable these features. Jensen Huang is a con-artist who convinced people that these features would be relevant during the lifespan of the first generation RTX cards back in August 2018. Which clearly they aren't unless you replay games just to look at shiny reflections in one of the handful of games that are supported.

The 5600XT and the 2060 are about as dead even as they come in terms of rasterized performance and power draw. The lowest rung 1st gen RTX card is going to be about as useful as a non-RTX card in the future.

There are plenty of reasons to NOT buy a 5600XT. The vanilla 5700 cost difference (usually not much on sale) and performance difference (somewhat significant) are the biggest reasons IMO.
Features matter.

If the cards are just about identical performance, why wouldn't you choose the one with a much better and modern feature set?
 

kirbyrj

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Features matter.

If the cards are just about identical performance, why wouldn't you choose the one with a much better and modern feature set?
I know we've gone back and forth on this in several threads over the past few months. Features only matter when they are used. By the time that there is widespread adoption of the "better and modern feature set," a $150 card will be available that outperforms it. I can't think of a single game released in 2020 that used this "better and modern feature set" at launch...which is my point. Probably Doom Eternal comes to mind as a large AAA release for example, and here's what they had to say about it...

The reality is that this is a bad time to be buying any card as we are within 6 months or so of both camps releasing new cards.
 

Snowdog

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The reality is that this is a bad time to be buying any card as we are within 6 months or so of both camps releasing new cards.
The reality is that, that many people will need cards now, not 6+ months from now. So they have to compare the available cards, not future cards that half year away or more, that we have no real information about.

And if you are comparing two cards, with near identical performance, then the feature set become a differentiator.

NVidia has:

NVenc: Vastly superior video encoder - Usable by anyone doing streaming/encoding, don't need to wait for game implementation.
Ray Tracing: Yes it's in few games, but for those with DLSS 2.0, it will be playable.
DLSS: Performance enhancer, so it can potentially extend the life of card.
Variable Rate Shading: Performance enhancer.
Mesh Shaders: Performance enhancer
Sampler feedback: Performance enhancer

Sure you can rationalize it all away, claiming you won't ever use any of it, but I would bet most people would eventually use some of it.
 

Rvenger

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The reality is that, that many people will need cards now, not 6+ months from now. So they have to compare the available cards, not future cards that half year away or more, that we have no real information about.

And if you are comparing two cards, with near identical performance, then the feature set become a differentiator.

NVidia has:

NVenc: Vastly superior video encoder - Usable by anyone doing streaming/encoding, don't need to wait for game implementation.
Ray Tracing: Yes it's in few games, but for those with DLSS 2.0, it will be playable.
DLSS: Performance enhancer, so it can potentially extend the life of card.
Variable Rate Shading: Performance enhancer.
Mesh Shaders: Performance enhancer
Sampler feedback: Performance enhancer

Sure you can rationalize it all away, claiming you won't ever use any of it, but I would bet most people would eventually use some of it.

AMD *could* make some beneficial features but they can't even get the drivers right so there's that.
 

sabrewolf732

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And others never had a problem ever. I had 3 different Navi cards with zero issues. Used with both Intel and AMD CPUs.
Because you didn't have an issue doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Reddit and other forums were loaded with navi black screen/crashing issues. Changing sync settings, disabling relive, and adjusting other settings were all temp fixes, thankfully it has been fixed since ~Marchish but to say Navi was totally stable is not accurate lol. It definitely had more issues than other cards at launch.,
 

kirbyrj

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Because you didn't have an issue doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Reddit and other forums were loaded with navi black screen/crashing issues. Changing sync settings, disabling relive, and adjusting other settings were all temp fixes, thankfully it has been fixed since ~Marchish but to say Navi was totally stable is not accurate lol. It definitely had more issues than other cards at launch.,
"People" in your original statement is a generic word. I fall into the subset of "people" but have not had issues :p.

I'm just pointing out that just because some people had problems, it doesn't mean that everyone did.
 

sabrewolf732

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"People" in your original statement is a generic word. I fall into the subset of "people" but have not had issues :p.

I'm just pointing out that just because some people had problems, it doesn't mean that everyone did.
A disproportionate percentage had issues, why do you think there was a concerted effort by AMD to fix issues if these issues did not exist?

pendragon1

What Nvidia driver issues? Did I miss something?
 

pendragon1

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A disproportionate percentage had issues, why do you think there was a concerted effort by AMD to fix issues if these issues did not exist?

pendragon1

What Nvidia driver issues? Did I miss something?
look in the nvidia section. there have been issues since .75 came out. now its not everyone but a few, just like on the amd side.
 

XoR_

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The last time I used AMD card Radeon HD7950 I had zero issues with drivers and this I believe is the experience most AMD users have so the bad drivers argument is kinda silly.

The main reason to get RTX 2060 instead 5600XT even if it slightly more expensive is that RTX can play this
and it does so at ~60fps at 1080p
PMT3PEkWQPS9MtfL6hpLf5-1912-80.png
 

kirbyrj

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The last time I used AMD card Radeon HD7950 I had zero issues with drivers and this I believe is the experience most AMD users have so the bad drivers argument is kinda silly.

The main reason to get RTX 2060 instead 5600XT even if it slightly more expensive is that RTX can play this
and it does so at ~60fps at 1080p
View attachment 246840
I have never once been so inclined to ever pick up and play Minecraft on any platform it is available on.
 

noko

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The reality is that, that many people will need cards now, not 6+ months from now. So they have to compare the available cards, not future cards that half year away or more, that we have no real information about.

And if you are comparing two cards, with near identical performance, then the feature set become a differentiator.

NVidia has:

NVenc: Vastly superior video encoder - Usable by anyone doing streaming/encoding, don't need to wait for game implementation.
Ray Tracing: Yes it's in few games, but for those with DLSS 2.0, it will be playable.
DLSS: Performance enhancer, so it can potentially extend the life of card.
Variable Rate Shading: Performance enhancer.
Mesh Shaders: Performance enhancer
Sampler feedback: Performance enhancer

Sure you can rationalize it all away, claiming you won't ever use any of it, but I would bet most people would eventually use some of it.
If someone NEEDS a card now, on a budget, I would not recommend anything expensive due to the rather sharp decline in value in the near turn. Borrow, buy a 1070, Vega etc. might be a better strategy at this point.

Wow! Nvidia has all of these Performance enhancers but for around the same $ AMD is faster, at times 32% faster. Now if you have or know someone with a crystal ball can see into the future for how these features will perform with games supporting them -> Please let me know. Yes, a valid consideration but if you need a card NOW! Then you will be playing today games NOW!


I do see valid reasons for getting AMD or Nvidia, could be game specific, software specific, price per performance, long term value (Nvidia has repeatedly shown poor long term value while AMD has shown otherwise with performance over time). Really at the $300 price point for a new card the Radeon 5700 is hands down the best value and probably the best longer term usable card. While the 2060 may have more features, the 6gb, less bandwidth and already much poorer performance is not going to be effectively made up for most games. Now the 5600 vs 2060, I would go with the 2060. Really at this point, considering next generation, consoles and GPUs, buying anything expensive today unless money is not really a concern will probably be disappointing.
 

Snowdog

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Wow! Nvidia has all of these Performance enhancers but for around the same $ AMD is faster, at times 32% faster.
You do know we were specifically discussing 5600xt vs 2060, so if you want to cherry pick results, at least try cherry pick from the right cards. :rolleyes:

Yes, a valid consideration but if you need a card NOW! Then you will be playing today games NOW!
Presumably, they will also be playing games on it in the future as well.

NVenc isn't dependent on getting game support, it helps video encoding and streaming, NOW!.
 

pendragon1

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You do know we were specifically discussing 5600xt vs 2060
you started that, its not what the thread is about and technically way off topic..
end of op = "Pros/cons to this card or AMD GPUs in general? Thanks."
 

XoR_

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I have never once been so inclined to ever pick up and play Minecraft on any platform it is available on.
Me neither 🙃
There are few games with RTX support already and more are coming, notably Cyberpunk 2077. Most games with RTX should come with DLSS to offset performance loss from using DXR or to just to get better performance if necessary for given resolution.
 

kirbyrj

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Me neither 🙃
There are few games with RTX support already and more are coming, notably Cyberpunk 2077. Most games with RTX should come with DLSS to offset performance loss from using DXR or to just to get better performance if necessary for given resolution.
Name one game that has had either RT or DLSS features available at the time the game launched. That's my biggest beef with RTX features in general, specifically RT and DLSS. I mean there might be a handful, but I can't think of a single AAA title.

I've been hearing about Cyberpunk and RTX since RTX launched. Unfortunately, the generation after the RTX 2XXX will likely have launched before the "showcase" of Ray Tracing is even released. Furthermore, it's going to likely need all the DLSS it can get because it's going to be severely underpowered for ray tracing (as the 2060 has arguably been since launch).
 

sabrewolf732

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Hotfix driver released in April to address issues caused by previous driver.
In researching it, the Nvidia issue seems pretty minor in comparison to the navi black screen issues, and it seems like it was one bunk driver fixed by a following driver. Navi has had questionable drivers since the launch of the product.

You realize AMD acknowledges there were black screen issues as the issues were fixed?

If there were no issues, what did AMD fix in March?

hwunboxed polled 40% of navi users having issues, after march driver update issues were cut in half, putting AMD on par with Nvidia in terms of reported issues. As per hwunboxed, "AMD expected 20.2.2 to solve 90% of peoples issues". How can AMD make this claim if as you and the other radeon guys claim there were never driver issues?


Don't get me wrong I love my 5700xt it offers a fantastic amount of horsepower for the money but it was hard for me to recommend it to non enthusiasts until recently.
 

kirbyrj

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In researching it, the Nvidia issue seems pretty minor in comparison to the navi black screen issues, and it seems like it was one bunk driver not bunk drivers since the launch of a product.

You realize AMD acknowledges there were black screen issues as the issues were fixed?

If there were no issues, what did AMD fix in March?

hwunboxed polled 40% of navi users having issues, after march driver update issues were cut in half. As per hwunboxed, "AMD expected 20.2.2 to solve 90% of peoples issues". How can AMD make this claim if as you the other radeon guys claim there were never driver issues?


Don't get me wrong I love my 5700xt it offers a fantastic amount of horsepower for the money but it was hard for me to recommend it to non enthusiasts until recently.
I'm not saying other people didn't have issues. I'm saying I didn't have any issues. My favorite part of that video is around the 1:45 mark where he basically says people have had issues, but we've never had issues even in daily driver machines, so we find it hard to replicate them. I have moved my 5700 from an AMD system to an Intel system and haven't had a problem. I have run just about every driver available since launch, and never had any of the black screen issues others have noted. So I have no idea what the magic combination is to replicate a problem.

I'm not a "radeon guy." I'm a bang for the buck guy (right now at 1440p). I like the fantastic bang for the buck that the 5700 has, especially when flashed to the XT power limits. I had a 2080 Super, but even though it cost double the price, it wasn't as significant of an upgrade as I would have liked for the money, so I sold it and went back to another 5700.
 

Snowdog

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Name one game that has had either RT or DLSS features available at the time the game launched. That's my biggest beef with RTX features in general, specifically RT and DLSS. I mean there might be a handful, but I can't think of a single AAA title.
Control. Launched Aug 2019 with RT and DLSS. It's also considered among the best RT game implementations yet. It's no surprise that many games that were in development before RTX cards were available, didn't break their development schedules, by adding new technologies, not originally in the development plan, but instead kept the original scheduled and then worked on adding RT support. Going forward more games will likely have RT support in their original development schedules.

I've been hearing about Cyberpunk and RTX since RTX launched. Unfortunately, the generation after the RTX 2XXX will likely have launched before the "showcase" of Ray Tracing is even released.
You would have only heard about Cyberpunks with RTX early on as wishful thinking on forums. RTX support in Cyberpunk was only a fairly recent announcement (June 2019).
 

kirbyrj

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Control. Launched Aug 2019 with RT and DLSS. It's also considered among the best RT game implementations yet. It's no surprise that many games that were in development before RTX cards were available, didn't break their development schedules, by adding new technologies, not originally in the development plan, but instead kept the original scheduled and then worked on adding RT support. Going forward more games will likely have RT support in their original development schedules.



You would have only heard about Cyberpunks with RTX early on as wishful thinking on forums. RTX support in Cyberpunk was only a fairly recent announcement (June 2019).
Congratulations. One game. And then they repatched it to actually work with DLSS. All you're doing by making the "games were already in development" argument is bolstering my argument that an RTX purchase in August 2018 was all about the modest increase in rasterized performance with new features that might one day be useful, but not before the next generation is out.

I went back and checked the RTX/Cyberpunk connection and I see the June 2019 E3 connection. I might have just heard about Cyberpunk not being connected to RTX previous to E3 but either way, it doesn't change the fact that I've heard about RTX Cyberpunk for almost a year and by the time it's released the next generation will likely be released.
 

XoR_

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and by the time it's released the next generation will likely be released.
...and this changes exactly what?
When someone is considering 5600XT then I would assume this person will use this card for at least 2 years.

I also believe that it is safe to assume that anyone will rather play Cyberpunk 2077 with ray tracing than without and given Control performance you pretty much get RT medium for free as long as you use DLSS which now works enough good that this kind of comparison starts to make a lot of sense.
I'd rather play with RT medium + DLSS than have fake reflection that do not show anything more than I can already see on screen without these reflection and no global illumination.

I wouldn't recommend RTX to an AMD fanboy really or someone who I know will change GPU as soon as next gen of GPU comes out and this is just a stop-gap solution. But for actual usage in this case recommending Navi makes very little sense and if it does arguments need to be stronger than just "not everyone likes good lighting, shadows and reflection" or "not all games support it" or "RTX support is usually released as patch and not ship with retail"
 

pendragon1

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I also believe that it is safe to assume that anyone will rather play Cyberpunk 2077 with ray tracing
you would be wrong. i for one dont care because i hate how everything is super shiny and it never stops raining in anything with current RT. and you keep tossing out this fanboy crap, its getting old.
 

Snowdog

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Congratulations. One game. And then they repatched it to actually work with DLSS. All you're doing by making the "games were already in development" argument is bolstering my argument that an RTX purchase in August 2018 was all about the modest increase in rasterized performance with new features that might one day be useful, but not before the next generation is out.
You asked for one game, and I supplied, now you get huffy about that.

Control had the best implementation of DLSS at the time of shipping (it was the only game with something between DLSS 1.0 and 2.0), and KUDOS to those devs for revisiting it and making it better with DLSS 2.0. It would be awesome if other devs would upgrade to DLSS 2.0. A lot of good things in Control and you just see sour grapes.


I went back and checked the RTX/Cyberpunk connection and I see the June 2019 E3 connection. I might have just heard about Cyberpunk not being connected to RTX previous to E3 but either way, it doesn't change the fact that I've heard about RTX Cyberpunk for almost a year and by the time it's released the next generation will likely be released.
So? It could release before or after RTX 3000 series, and doesn't matter which, it will likely help clear old RTX 2000 stock and new RTX 3000 parts. RTX 2000 series buyers still get to play with RT effects, Navi 5700 buyers won't.

The amount of effort that goes into rationalizing that not having some feature, is somehow better than than having it is ridiculous, and convinces no one.
 

kirbyrj

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You asked for one game, and I supplied, now you get huffy about that.

Control had the best implementation of DLSS at the time of shipping (it was the only game with something between DLSS 1.0 and 2.0), and KUDOS to those devs for revisiting it and making it better with DLSS 2.0. It would be awesome if other devs would upgrade to DLSS 2.0. A lot of good things in Control and you just see sour grapes.




So? It could release before or after RTX 3000 series, and doesn't matter which, it will likely help clear old RTX 2000 stock and new RTX 3000 parts. RTX 2000 series buyers still get to play with RT effects, Navi 5700 buyers won't.

The amount of effort that goes into rationalizing that not having some feature, is somehow better than than having it is ridiculous, and convinces no one.
You're missing the whole point about me asking for games. There has been ONE GAME that actually had support for these features at launch, and that one game had half of the features broken and had to be fixed (what you see as kudos to the devs is me seeing them fixing their problems). I see that as a giant problem 20 months into the product cycle.

I've already said that I wouldn't buy a 5600XT, so it really comes down to 5700 vs. 2060 in the same price point. The 5700 has better rasterization performance period (even more so once you unlock the artificial product segmentation power plans via either a bios update or software mod). So I'm purposely making a choice for better performance in the vast majority of games vs. shiny reflections and questionable availability of features in future ones. When RT and DLSS are completely mainstream and available everywhere on every game, I'll think differently of it. It just isn't there yet, and since that's the case I'll opt for better rasterized performance at the same price point (or less). I don't think this is an unreasonable opinion.

If a 5600XT and a 2060 were exactly the same price, I'd buy the 2060.
 
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Burticus

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1060 3g is still a decent 1080p card, not sure the 5600xt is a huge upgrade except in benchmarks. In 1080p gameplay you should be getting 60ish fps on a 1060, tweak the settings, OC a little etc

Or look into the used market for a 1070ti or 1080 etc. You could probably find a 1080 under $300 used. Or AMD equivalent if you want team red.
 

Snowdog

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There has been ONE GAME that actually had support for these features at launch, and that one game had half of the features broken and had to be fixed (what you see as kudos to the devs is me seeing them fixing their problems). I see that as a giant problem 20 months into the product cycle.
:rolleyes: :troll:

Go read reviews of Control. It wasn't broken.
 

noko

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Personally I think the 5600 XT is over price, max should have been around $249 for the base allowing better cooled ones to go up in price and even cheaper versions. At the current price point the 5700 is just a way better deal over the 5600 XT or the 2060 KO. I played 20+ games in two years and only one had good RTX? I really didn't miss much but in reality had better performance overall in the games I did play per $. I also don't like at the tell end of a product cycle seeing prices kept high, like in virtually all of the Nvidia lineup, they should naturally creep down. AMD is also now doing this, it would be great if AMD start lowering prices. Maybe AIBs don't want that is the real reason. Still AMD and Nvidia should over a period of time reduce the cost to the AIBs for the GPU's and ram if sold together as much as possible.
 
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noko

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:rolleyes: :troll:

Go read reviews of Control. It wasn't broken.
Yes Control works great with AMD, minus the cool RTX features though :(

The main reason why I don't play regular games with the 1080Ti's normally is because they did not support my FreeSync monitor and currently don't support it as well as the 5700 XT does. The 1080Ti's are used for VR only for the most part now because they work great in that. AMD had very useful features that could be used, such as FreeSync which Nvidia has made some progress with supporting VRR monitors without the Nvidia Proprietary module.
 
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kirbyrj

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If a 5600XT and a 2060 were exactly the same price, I'd buy the 2060.
So I got an e-mail today from NE advertising an MSI 5600XT for $254 AR with a free game. The cheapest 2060 is $299 for a single fan ITX card or $309 AR for a comparable MSI card. $50 in this price segment is huge. Outside of a couple big sales, I haven't seen them at comparable pricing, so I'm almost being facetious.
 

noko

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So I got an e-mail today from NE advertising an MSI 5600XT for $254 AR with a free game. The cheapest 2060 is $299 for a single fan ITX card or $309 AR for a comparable MSI card. $50 in this price segment is huge. Outside of a couple big sales, I haven't seen them at comparable pricing, so I'm almost being facetious.
That is certainly a more realistic price for the 5600XT. 5700 use to fall below $300 at times, have not seen that lately.
 

sabrewolf732

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So I got an e-mail today from NE advertising an MSI 5600XT for $254 AR with a free game. The cheapest 2060 is $299 for a single fan ITX card or $309 AR for a comparable MSI card. $50 in this price segment is huge. Outside of a couple big sales, I haven't seen them at comparable pricing, so I'm almost being facetious.
At $250 the 5600xt is a solid deal. When it's $20 away from the faster 5700 and more feature rich 2060 not so much.
 

pendragon1

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That is certainly a more realistic price for the 5600XT. 5700 use to fall below $300 at times, have not seen that lately.
thats why i didnt suggest it, lowest i could find was a $70-80 difference.


At $250 the 5600xt is a solid deal. When it's $20 away from the faster 5700 and more feature rich 2060 not so much.
care to share where you found a 5700 for $270?
 

kirbyrj

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thats why i didnt suggest it, lowest i could find was a $70-80 difference.



care to share where you found a 5700 for $270?
I got one for $280 AR with two games in late 2019 from NE. It was an Asus reference model if that matters.
 

noko

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kirbyrj

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