Conroe & Cell Factor Demo?

[koopaGG]

Cloth was done 1-2 years ago by Meqon for Duke Nukem Forever before Ageia picked it up. I know enough about the PhysX accelerator to know that it's not all about boxes. But that seems to be all they enjoy displaying. As I stated earlier, the only 2 good looking things they have going for them are both in UT2K7, fluids and bending metal. That game is still pretty far away, what do we have NOW to be excited about?

 

[DarkStar02]

@Terra: So even with a PPU card you only got 6 fps?

 

[Monkey_feces]

Guys, pleas stop saying that the PPU is worthless because it just gives you piles of boxes. Saying that is like saying that a GX2 is worthless because it just gives you pretty colors and shadows. Hey, at least the PPU gives you something that actually improves gameplay.

It will be a very, very long time before a CPU can keep up with a PPU in physics. Sure, developers can do some awesome things on a CPU today. But they can do much more with a PPU.

Now, let me explain why the PPU is more than boxes:

Say you're in an FPS game. A one-on-one battle between you and your opponent is going on inside a manufactuing plant. There is a stack of packages on the wall. You put a well placed bullet into one of the packages. It falls out of place, causing the entire stack of boxes to come crashing down onto your enemy, killing him instantly. Adds a whole new dimesion of strategy to FPS, doesn't it?

Now, imagine you're on a mission to take out the headquarters of your enemy. As you approach the building, however, some guards spot you, and a firefight emerges. Bullets tear through the building left and right. Eventually, the building's structural integrity is compromised, and the building realistically collapses, killing all inside it.

Now, imagine you're hiding from an enemy behind a wall. But you don't realize that your enemy is carrying a larger weapon than you anticipated. He fires the weapon through the wall. The PPU calculates exactly how much velocity the bullet is going to have after going through the wall. It determines that, while the bullet won't be going fast enough to kill you, it will be enough to stun you for a few seconds.

Think about a combat flight simulator. Except now, instead of just modeling the exterior of the plane, the fuel lines, hydraulic lines, fuel tanks, and all engine parts are also modelled. An enemy fires several bullets at you. One of them pierces the the fuel line, causing fuel to rapidly spill inside the wing on a realistic path. Another bullet cuts some electrical lines, causing your cockpit lights to go out.

The leaking fuel reaches the cut power lines, and the PPU quickly calculates that the resulting explosion will be enough to destroy the hydraulic lines going to the left aeilrons, as well as blow a hole in the wing and destroy the left engine. Pieces of shrapnel from the blast injure you, inhibiting your abillity to operate the controls for several seconds. When you finally regain control, you realize you have a challenge ahead of you; the hole in the left wing makes your plane much less aerodynamic, and keep trying to turn the plane to the left.

You are able to regain control, despite having only one engine, one aeilron, and no cockpit lights. But then you realize that you've forgotten to close the fuel crossfeed. The right engine goes out as the last of your fuel drops from the left wing into the sea below.

With no engines and hardly any control, you know you must make a water landing. But then, you see an island to your left. You fly over to the island and prepare for a crash landing. Because of the damage, your flaps don't work, forcing you to land at a very high speed. Luckily, the landing gear still works, so you may have a chance at survival. As your plane hits the bumpy surface, the PPU goes to work yet again, calculating the damage that will be incurred to the gear and plane. Your nose wheel strikes a rock. flipping the plane over. The PPU quickly determines how much the pilot will be injured as a result of this. You survive the crash, but just barely, and will be unable to fly again. For you, the campaign is over.


^Now try doing THAT on a CPU.


Here's what I see happening. Developers will begin by using physics that can be done on either a GPU or a PPU. If you don't want to buy a PPU, you'll have to turn down eye-candy settings to free up your GPU for the physics. Real enthusiasts will buy a PPU so they can have the best eye-candy and physics. Eventually, as the PPU improves and the price goes down, more people will buy one, and developers will begin programming for the PPU only. Once it becomes "required", some companies may begin putting them on motherboards.

That's nice and all, but it's worthless FOR NOW(god I can't stress that enough). It's not like you're missing out on anything by not having the ppu now. When it does become necessary, it's not like it will be sold out. If you buy it now, there's a chance it won't even be utilized to its full potential because more common mainstream solutions could phase out the ageia.

 

[koopaGG]

That's nice and all, but it's worthless FOR NOW(god I can't stress that enough). It's not like you're missing out on anything by not having the ppu now. When it does become necessary, it's not like it will be sold out. If you buy it now, there's a chance it won't even be utilized to its full potential because more common mainstream solutions could phase out the ageia.

They so easily ignore this fact too. Cubewalls aren't cutting it. And as stated before, 1 fps to 6 fps? Wow, that sure is a big improvement for a $300 piece. Yes, the CPU is less stressed but why is the PPU still not used in retail games. We have Bet On Soldier, where most people would probably admit, that gun looks horrible, not worth $300, $200, or even $100. We have GRAW, the difference between the PPU and Non-PPU is simply not worth it.

What makes a $300 video card worth it though? The game is almost always going to INCREASE in quality, it will look better, it will play better.

 

[HOCP4ME]

That's nice and all, but it's worthless FOR NOW(god I can't stress that enough). It's not like you're missing out on anything by not having the ppu now. When it does become necessary, it's not like it will be sold out. If you buy it now, there's a chance it won't even be utilized to its full potential because more common mainstream solutions could phase out the ageia.

I know, that wasn't my point. I just heard some people saying that a CPU can already handle physics, and I was saying that a PPU can handle much, much more, and trying to give an example.

Yet to see it from a ppu yet so who knows if it can handle such depth

Well, we know one thing for sure, a CPU certainly can NOT handle such depth!

Sounds more like hit detection then physics. If you play quake 3 a bullet to the head is instant kill while a shot to the leg will only injure you slightly. They most likely haven't done anything like this stuff yet is because it's to time consuming and modeling stuff that you wont see is going to push back release dates

I think it's more than just hit detection. A simulator today would just say "okay the bullet hit the left wing", but a PPU would say "a bullet hit the top of the left wing, where the armor plating slowed it down, changing it's trajectory, causing it to hit one of the fuel lines, but it ran out of speed there and didn't cause any more damage." Also, since the PPU is so good at fluids, it could calculate the path the leaking fuel would take, and determine if it would pass be any severed electrical lines.

PPU dosn't determine the damage you take the game does that with the cpu.

The PPU can do it much better, though. It can say "well, the bullet left the gun at xx MPH, but then it went through the glass window, which slowed it down to xx MPH, then it went through the wooden door, which slowed it down to xx MPG, and all this time gravity altered it's trajectory so that it hit a soldier on the head, but since the skull is pretty hard, and the bullet had lost a lot of speed, it's only enough to give him a nasty bruise and stun him for a few seconds."

And where can you get a board that allows you to have three GPUs? Also, why would you buy a GPU just for physics? A PPU would be the same price or cheaper.

Like I said, I think games will be developed that will either use a PPU, or use part of the GPU for physics. Those who want the best performance will buy the PPU. Those who don't mind losing some eye candy will stick with their GPU. Those who happen to have an old video card laying around can stick it in and reduce some of the load on their newer GPU.

 

[Terra]

@Terra: So even with a PPU card you only got 6 fps?

It's a smal program, written by 3rd party.
It does however show that the CPU sucks at physcis compared to the PPU.
Like I said, more FPS, less RAM usage, and WAY lower CPU load...

I bet the program if optimized would who a even bigger difference...
Just like this clip here shows: Intel Pentium XE 840 HT Dual Core vs. AGEIA PhysX PPU, 17.9MB

And even with this people still spread FUD like the CPU is lightyears ahead of the PPU...
There are ~6 games out now that shown different use of the PhysX...from effect Physics to interactive gameplay physcis, and still some peeps claim no use for the PhysX

I bet that when more and more games come out, the "argument" will cahnge to"I don't like that game"...
Because when peopel can claim that a CPU is faster than a PPU at physics, they are way lost...

The most interresting thing I have seen was real-time simulated rigied-bodies chain-mail...
The game world is becomming less and less static and scripted...only some peoples limited thinking that is stuck in HL2-physcis

Terra - I wonder how much is !!!!!!'isme and how much is viral marketing...

 

[Monkey_feces]

It's a smal program, written by 3rd party.
It does however show that the CPU sucks at physcis compared to the PPU.
Like I said, more FPS, less RAM usage, and WAY lower CPU load...

I bet the program if optimized would who a even bigger difference...
Just like this clip here shows: Intel Pentium XE 840 HT Dual Core vs. AGEIA PhysX PPU, 17.9MB

And even with this people still spread FUD like the CPU is lightyears ahead of the PPU...
There are ~6 games out now that shown different use of the PhysX...from effect Physics to interactive gameplay physcis, and still some peeps claim no use for the PhysX

I bet that when more and more games come out, the "argument" will cahnge to"I don't like that game"...
Because when peopel can claim that a CPU is faster than a PPU at physics, they are way lost...

The most interresting thing I have seen was real-time simulated rigied-bodies chain-mail...
The game world is becomming less and less static and scripted...only some peoples limited thinking that is stuck in HL2-physcis

Terra - I wonder how much is !!!!!!'isme and how much is viral marketing...

DO read our posts before you post any more vitriol.

 

[koopaGG]

DO read our posts before you post any more vitriol.

Well, I know at least one of em isn't reading yours...

 

[Terra]

Well, I know at least one of em isn't reading yours...

OMG...
I still got the PM I sent to him telling him that he got a place on my ignore in my outbox (not hardware related topic, where he contacted me), so he is just being stupid now...

Terra - Do i need to make a screenshot and post it?!

 

[koopaGG]

OMG...
I still got the PM I sent to him telling him that he got a place on my ignore in my outbox (not hardware related topic, where he contacted me), so he is just being stupid now...

Terra - Do i need to make a screenshot and post it?!

No you don't but why do you need to put people on ignore on a DISCUSSION website? It's not like he was acting like a 5 year old saying "your mom" jokes or anything.

 

[jimmyb]

No you don't but why do you need to put people on ignore on a DISCUSSION website? It's not like he was acting like a 5 year old saying "your mom" jokes or anything.

To whom it applies,
It's pretty childish to go on-and-on about the people you've got on ignore. That's really not ignoring them at all, and comes off like a 5 year old putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "I'm not listening!" over and over.

When you put someone on ignore, it's not something you need to announce. Do it, and keep it to yourself.


Back on topic, I would be interested to see some conroe benchies on an actual non-tech demo application with and without a PPU. While it's unlikely it will be as fast as hardware physics, it is a very logical progression for dual core CPUs (and onwards).

 

[defiant007]

Great...another thread thats turned to shit thanks to Terra. Good job man

 

[Monkey_feces]

Great...another thread thats turned to shit thanks to Terra. Good job man

Not quite, the thread's discussion remains resolved as of now. Terra provided the main opposition, which was waste your money on a $300 ppu right now, it is a wonderful investment. Right now, I can safely say the verdict is wait, maybe the conroe will be sufficient for physics and the ppu will be extreme overkill, maybe the ppu is a great thing, but for now, it certainly isn't.
"OMG...
I still got the PM I sent to him telling him that he got a place on my ignore in my outbox (not hardware related topic, where he contacted me), so he is just being stupid now...

Terra - Do i need to make a screenshot and post it?!"
Terra's act of resorting to personal attacks and childish tantrums only proves how flawed his argument is.
Terra, you even resorted to personal attacks and tantrums in the pms. If I were as vindictive/childish as you, I would have reported your pm, need I remind you that you called me a low I.Q. religious retard?

 

[koopaGG]

Not quite, the thread's discussion remains resolved as of now. Terra provided the main opposition, which was waste your money on a $300 ppu right now, it is a wonderful investment. Right now, I can safely say the verdict is wait, maybe the conroe will be sufficient for physics and the ppu will be extreme overkill, maybe the ppu is a great thing, but for now, it certainly isn't.
"OMG...
I still got the PM I sent to him telling him that he got a place on my ignore in my outbox (not hardware related topic, where he contacted me), so he is just being stupid now...

Terra - Do i need to make a screenshot and post it?!"
Terra's act of resorting to personal attacks and childish tantrums only proves how flawed his argument is.
Terra, you even resorted to personal attacks and tantrums in the pms. If I were as vindictive/childish as you, I would have reported your pm, need I remind you that you called me a low I.Q. religious retard?

Well thats another topic, but you should post the PM.

So is someone going to show me a reason to be excited? Tech demos and boxes aren't what I have in mind as fun. I read up more on Ageia to be more fair in this argument and I watched every video they have there. I still don't see anything amazing besides UT2K7 yet.

 

[MrWizard6600]

[Rant=MrWizard6600]
first off. i dont think the full impact of physics has sank into anyone yet. everyones immidiate reaction to saying "how bout having a dedicated processer for physics" is "oh! cool!" and then the go onto w/e sites to form w/e opinions they have.

let it sink in. physics. does anyone fully understand what that is?

ill give you a hypothetical, using CS:S because i know it well.

your a counter terrorist at Bridge in aztec. its your one position to defend. using ingame physics. the only way to kill an enimy is by shooting them, or blowing them up. so they are rushing bridge. what do you do? get yourself in a good corner and camp it. as they come by, you start spraying.

now with physics.

your at your end of bridge. you see the Ts comin, you hide behind a corner and as you hear them coming you take out your nade and throw it at the ceiliing, ont the Ts side of bridge causeing the old concrete from around them to crack. the concrete overhang on there side to collapse, crushing several people. unfortunatly a few of the terrorists made it out and are on the bridge headed your way. before they start shooting you, you hide, with your trusty m4 you shoot the supports for the bridge, wakening them, but you cant take it out yet. there not close enough. as you hear the footsteps get nearer you stomp on the support, and the bridge breaks off. they fall, not to there deaths but they fall, and land in a mirky river. knowing this you take the stairs to your right down to this river with sidearm holstered and M4 unloaded. As the terrorists see you they shoot you with their Aks. only to jam. the water has caused the hammer to malfunction.

you see what im getting at? EVERYTHING is interactive? not just highlighable things. walls, supports, water, rain, fire, it all has an effect. and every move you make should reconfigure the map to match. if i was to huck a grenade beside a wall in appartment, well, what would happen to the wall? bye bye. it would blow out the driwall, insulation, and other side of drywall. leaving the people on the otherside shell shocked and flanked.

im not interested in flailing boxes. or even partical collision. i want stresses analyzed, proper gravity, proper reactions, and yes, configurable maps that when altered by something, are properly altered (ex the wall and grenade example).

can that be done? im not talking about simple one track scence where yes that one spot on the wall is destroyable, or the bridge has a certian ammount of hit points (for lack of a better term) and when there depleted something happens. i want each part to have its own unique features. if game developers could just supply the PPU with some numbers it can crunch them. IE a wall with texture A421 has XX pounds of resistance per square inch, a grande has XX pounds of explosion per square inch, dissipating at XX ft per second through air. a bullet has XX mass and has an impact force of XX psi.
course this would need several times the polygons. as instead of just making a slab for a wall, they would know have to make studs, the wall, and the insolation.

when i first heard of the ppu this is what came to my mind. not people squabbeling about partical collisions.

btw: the source engine has amazing physics as is. btw2: the partical collisions demonstraighed by everyone were amazing.
[/Rant]

as regarding a PPUs physics processing power in comparison to a CPUS processing power. lets not bother with any terms like FSB or ALU, or w/e w/e.

think about it. a PPU and a CPU have a chip of similar size. in that equal space of volume, a PPU is deticated to one type of calculation. of that space 100% is used for that calculation. a CPU with that same volume of space, has to link communicae between the GPU and the hard drive, as well as interperate information for the hard drive to be used by that gpu, has to cache textures, link the hard drive information to the sound device, as well as convert those sound files for use by the sound device etc etc am i making my point?

its just not possible that a CPU can do what a PPU does, according to even the most basic of laws.

wow am i ever posting philosopically today! does anyone want to hear my interpritation of what religion is all about?

woowoo thats a duzie of a post.

edit: why are we all raggin on terra now? something about personal attacks? i saw no such attacks. i saw blockage, thats not an attack, i saw a post about blockage, which was clerly a joke. terra have you been sending PM insults to people?

edit2: crap i feel a rant comin on... damn!

[Rant=MrWizard6600]
oh yea one more thing. the only thing wrong i see with ageia is that it just doesnt have the financial balls to fully create this hardware accelerated physics phonomina. i mean. imho, agiea should contract EA to come up with a game that fully exploits the uses of agiea, or as hard OCP calls it "the killer app". no game designer right now is willing to puit themselves in a position where they could easily go bankrupt. but if agiea could fork over a couple million to write a game with the phsysics mentioned above. i would not hesitate to buy a PPU, and a copy of that game, because as far as im concerned it would be the best game ever made, even if the plot sucked.

lets be honist. if you had a game where one of the moments is that you get to blow up a chemical factory with several sticks of TNT, you would be to your friends "check this part out its really cool!" right? i would. its one of the coolist parts of the game....

ok... now imaging the abillity to plant that C4 anywhere. get just as big a reaction. you would no longer just have one moment of "come here this is really cool" you would have... hundreds! not to mention, if your objective is to blow up that chemical factory, no more preset explosions, every time you destroyed it the destruction would be differant!

anywho. no ones gonna do it unless they have incentive too. and Ageia, if you dont get that killer app, your bankrupt. hows that for incentive?

imho, merge with a company, like Nvidia or ATi (OR S3! S3 FTW!). they would do it.

i really really hope the speciallized hardware acceleration for physics becomes as popular as GPUs.
[/Rant]

 

[Monkey_feces]

[Rant=MrWizard6600]
first off. i dont think the full impact of physics has sank into anyone yet. everyones immidiate reaction to saying "how bout having a dedicated processer for physics" is "oh! cool!" and then the go onto w/e sites to form w/e opinions they have.

let it sink in. physics. does anyone fully understand what that is?

ill give you a hypothetical, using CS:S because i know it well.

your a counter terrorist at Bridge in aztec. its your one position to defend. using ingame physics. the only way to kill an enimy is by shooting them, or blowing them up. so they are rushing bridge. what do you do? get yourself in a good corner and camp it. as they come by, you start spraying.

now with physics.

your at your end of bridge. you see the Ts comin, you hide behind a corner and as you hear them coming you take out your nade and throw it at the ceiliing, ont the Ts side of bridge causeing the old concrete from around them to crack. the concrete overhang on there side to collapse, crushing several people. unfortunatly a few of the terrorists made it out and are on the bridge headed your way. before they start shooting you, you hide, with your trusty m4 you shoot the supports for the bridge, wakening them, but you cant take it out yet. there not close enough. as you hear the footsteps get nearer you stomp on the support, and the bridge breaks off. they fall, not to there deaths but they fall, and land in a mirky river. knowing this you take the stairs to your right down to this river with sidearm holstered and M4 unloaded. As the terrorists see you they shoot you with their Aks. only to jam. the water has caused the hammer to malfunction.

you see what im getting at? EVERYTHING is interactive? not just highlighable things. walls, supports, water, rain, fire, it all has an effect. and every move you make should reconfigure the map to match. if i was to huck a grenade beside a wall in appartment, well, what would happen to the wall? bye bye. it would blow out the driwall, insulation, and other side of drywall. leaving the people on the otherside shell shocked and flanked.

im not interested in flailing boxes. or even partical collision. i want stresses analyzed, proper gravity, proper reactions, and yes, configurable maps that when altered by something, are properly altered (ex the wall and grenade example).

can that be done? im not talking about simple one track scence where yes that one spot on the wall is destroyable, or the bridge has a certian ammount of hit points (for lack of a better term) and when there depleted something happens. i want each part to have its own unique features. if game developers could just supply the PPU with some numbers it can crunch them. IE a wall with texture A421 has XX pounds of resistance per square inch, a grande has XX pounds of explosion per square inch, dissipating at XX ft per second through air. a bullet has XX mass and has an impact force of XX psi.
course this would need several times the polygons. as instead of just making a slab for a wall, they would know have to make studs, the wall, and the insolation.

when i first heard of the ppu this is what came to my mind. not people squabbeling about partical collisions.

btw: the source engine has amazing physics as is. btw2: the partical collisions demonstraighed by everyone were amazing.
[/Rant]

as regarding a PPUs physics processing power in comparison to a CPUS processing power. lets not bother with any terms like FSB or ALU, or w/e w/e.

think about it. a PPU and a CPU have a chip of similar size. in that equal space of volume, a PPU is deticated to one type of calculation. of that space 100% is used for that calculation. a CPU with that same volume of space, has to link communicae between the GPU and the hard drive, as well as interperate information for the hard drive to be used by that gpu, has to cache textures, link the hard drive information to the sound device, as well as convert those sound files for use by the sound device etc etc am i making my point?

its just not possible that a CPU can do what a PPU does, according to even the most basic of laws.

wow am i ever posting philosopically today! does anyone want to hear my interpritation of what religion is all about?

woowoo thats a duzie of a post.

edit: why are we all raggin on terra now? something about personal attacks? i saw no such attacks. i saw blockage, thats not an attack, i saw a post about blockage, which was clerly a joke. terra have you been sending PM insults to people?

edit2: crap i feel a rant comin on... damn!

[Rant=MrWizard6600]
oh yea one more thing. the only thing wrong i see with ageia is that it just doesnt have the financial balls to fully create this hardware accelerated physics phonomina. i mean. imho, agiea should contract EA to come up with a game that fully exploits the uses of agiea, or as hard OCP calls it "the killer app". no game designer right now is willing to puit themselves in a position where they could easily go bankrupt. but if agiea could fork over a couple million to write a game with the phsysics mentioned above. i would not hesitate to buy a PPU, and a copy of that game, because as far as im concerned it would be the best game ever made, even if the plot sucked.

lets be honist. if you had a game where one of the moments is that you get to blow up a chemical factory with several sticks of TNT, you would be to your friends "check this part out its really cool!" right? i would. its one of the coolist parts of the game....

ok... now imaging the abillity to plant that C4 anywhere. get just as big a reaction. you would no longer just have one moment of "come here this is really cool" you would have... hundreds! not to mention, if your objective is to blow up that chemical factory, no more preset explosions, every time you destroyed it the destruction would be differant!

anywho. no ones gonna do it unless they have incentive too. and Ageia, if you dont get that killer app, your bankrupt. hows that for incentive?

imho, merge with a company, like Nvidia or ATi (OR S3! S3 FTW!). they would do it.

i really really hope the speciallized hardware acceleration for physics becomes as popular as GPUs.
[/Rant]

Terra called me stupid. How's that for personal attack?
We have already touched on the subject that the ppu can be amazing if it is utilized, however, potential alone is not a good reason to buy it. Like I said (you already said it too), if any game developed the necessary resources to utilize the ppu, then they would be commiting corporate suicide just to cater to the 5 people who jumped on the ppu. That is why I stated that if we waited, maybe a dedicated cpu core combined with an onboard video card ppu will be sufficient enough to handle physics, to cater to the large market who already have a dual core cpu and will have a geforce 8series/ati x 2xxx series card vs the 5 people who have a ppu.

 

[MrWizard6600]

if that game were to b created it would be a game to buy a PPU for.

i know several people who got an Xbox 360 because they want to play Halo3. same with Xbox and Halo2.

 

[koopaGG]

if that game were to b created it would be a game to buy a PPU for.

i know several people who got an Xbox 360 because they want to play Halo3. same with Xbox and Halo2.

How does buying a system with some backwards compatability and lots of use compare to buying a ppu with a handful of games (released ones) supporting it and potential to be useful?

 

[MrWizard6600]

first off. when your the post right below someone, dont think a quote is needed.

next. thse people didnt do anything other then halo on their consoles. they bought the console so they could by the game

a game like this. i would buy the hardware so i could play the game. i am one of them, i would do it at the drop of a hat.

that game would be the most revolutionary game ever. dont bring up 3dfx. games had to enter the realm of 3d it just had to happen. but this doesnt, and i really hope it does.

 

[koopaGG]

I'm doing this only to you and to be polite, but I prefer quoting so people know who I'm talking to. Whether I'm posting below you or not.

I'm sure they bought other games as well. A game like you described, that will never happen (at least not a multiplayer experience). If it even had a chance of happening, it wouldnt be for years and years.

 

[MrWizard6600]

it takes years and years to produce a game. im fully aware of that.

the two people, jamie and Jeff. Jamie bought the Xbox and Halo 2, thats it, nothing else. Jeff bought 2 other games and is an avid user of Xbox live, but only recently. for the first year he had the Xbox the only thing it was used for was Halo2.

 

[Monkey_feces]

first off. when your the post right below someone, dont think a quote is needed.

next. thse people didnt do anything other then halo on their consoles. they bought the console so they could by the game

a game like this. i would buy the hardware so i could play the game. i am one of them, i would do it at the drop of a hat.

that game would be the most revolutionary game ever. dont bring up 3dfx. games had to enter the realm of 3d it just had to happen. but this doesnt, and i really hope it does.

That's a rather bad analogy. No one will ever make a game to utilizes the full power of a ppu within the next two years or ever. There is a larger potential market when you release a game and all you have to do is buy a $300 console. There are fewer people who have pcs when compared to consoles. There are even fewer people with pcs that can even handle bf2. Do you really expect one game would make people pay $300 for a ppu, $400 for a graphics card, $300 for a capable processor, $200 for capable memory, etc. It is corporate suicide to make a game utilize a ppu. Why? Because if you did, you would be committing others to commit financial suicide with a $3000 pc just for one game. Even after all of that, you won't be able to play an online game with full ppu effects. Imagine counterstrike if everything were interactive. Even if people had the necessary bandwidth, games would only last 10 minutes before de_dust/ cs_office is turned into a virtual no man's land by grenades and a hail of bullets. Now imagine if there were a completely interactive bf2, it would be impossible without a 10mbps connection, the gpu power to render all of the extra physics effects, and the carrier attacks by boat would be bland because everyone's gun will be jammed? Sorry to nit pick, but how does getting your gun jammed by water have anything to do with physics? You jump in the water, your gun no work

 

[SuperGee]

That's a rather bad analogy.
No one will ever make a game to utilizes the full power of a ppu within the next two years or ever.

With your analogy we where still on a EGA chippie doin 2D games. Pong, tetris.
How would you know. There is not much known about all those PhysX supporting 65+ or 100+ games. One ore more could be the PPU pushing games.
Gameplay PhysX is an option. Effect Physics are also very computational. So could drag a PPU down. But Dev's must take in acount the rest of the setup.

There is a larger potential market when you release a game and all you have to do is buy a $300 console.

Consoles are the larges market. Why are there Retail Linux and mac games. because they are so large target platform?.
Only the company the clone makers wich publisher want to cash in fast money in short time are the ones that only reach to the bulk of the audience. And then even PC is large enough. To make a fast profit.
There is a different branch the Class AAA Highprofile Game makers wich have a more Upgarde pushin power. And they are willing to support the leatest Hardware optional.
Why would they even make a PC Game if Console are each a more bigger market.
They do so, something is wrong with your point of view.

There are fewer people who have pcs when compared to consoles. There are even fewer people with pcs that can even handle bf2.

Yes and BF2 is a commersial sucses. BF2 was a killer app that push a lot off enthausiast gamer to upgrade. A game with a high profile and delivering on expectations and give large gameplay fun can do that. Al new Hardware needs it because each type of new hardware starts with One sell and could reach 1000 or mil to create a larger Tageting market. Killer apps can push hardware.

Do you really expect one game would make people pay $300 for a ppu, $400 for a graphics card, $300 for a capable processor, $200 for capable memory, etc. It is corporate suicide to make a game utilize a ppu. Why?

Never heard of minimum and optimum requierments.
You don't need a PPU for a PhysX game in the period where PPU is introduced.
It's for Optimum and is thus so Optional. $20 to $50 of each other component and you have $250 for a PhysX card. $300 is introduction price. Its not made in stone for forever.
The Class AAA title Dev team are in the busnes to compete wich each other and with that the must go for the latest and greatest new HArdware. More is possible so the can put the level game market has reach again a step higher. Where others who compete must strive for.

Because if you did, you would be committing others to commit financial suicide with a $3000 pc just for one game.

? That $3000 is for all PC apps and games. there are 65+ first wave PhysX game wich support PPU. and a lot of theme don't demand one but for optimum with everything on high. Its recommended.
I play a lot of games. If a game needs a upgrade that upgrade is also usable for games what comes in the future.

Like I upgrade for: X3 Reunion and the canceld Stargate SG1 The alliance. With this I could play BF2 and COD2 in high. Also GRaw Rise of legends AA and CF in full.

Even after all of that, you won't be able to play an online game with full ppu effects.

As if there is only online now a days. Oh yes online is important. But does this means no single player or pure single player ever in a game?

Imagine counterstrike if everything were interactive. Even if people had the necessary bandwidth, games would only last 10 minutes before de_dust/ cs_office is turned into a virtual no man's land by grenades and a hail of bullets.

Well those Pure online games would be Effectphysics only. But that comes with pure online games. But there others Pure singleplayer games. Also Games with both. Singleplayer MAssive Gameplay Physcs is no Problem also for Lan Game.
So in lan mode Gameplay physics can be enabled.
It's just a choice Devs must do to go for it. If other devs do the can't stay behind. Competition between games devs.

Now imagine if there were a completely interactive bf2, it would be impossible without a 10mbps connection, the gpu power to render all of the extra physics effects, and the carrier attacks by boat would be bland because everyone's gun will be jammed? Sorry to nit pick, but how does getting your gun jammed by water have anything to do with physics? You jump in the water, your gun no work

Well why don't you forget BF2 and all other online shit. thats effectPhyscs only.
Think Of COD2 or what "COD3" could implement. Wich has or will have a large Singleplayer Part.
No 10Mb problem.

LAN a Game with gameplay Physcs in single player. Could enable it in LAN mode. For online mode they could crank up the eyecandy more and make Gameplay Physx toggable.

Pure Online games are not story oriented. There is a large story prefering audience and for that you need single player. Or Coop campain mission play.

There is a lot more then pure FPS online games.

 

[cyks]

havok is sufficient,

Not only is havok not hardware, but hahahahaahhahahahahahahaahahahahhahahaha

No one will ever make a game to utilizes the full power of a ppu within the next two years or ever.

Can I see through your crystal ball too? And in addition, the same is said of the GPU, CPU.. etc... Thirdly, who even cares? Moot!

It is corporate suicide to make a game utilize a ppu. Why?

Epic is making an entire game engine that uses the PPU, called Unreal engine 3. Ageia has a lineup of over 60+ games that will use the PPU in the future. Look as if someone knows something you don't.....

Even if people had the necessary bandwidth

OMG, the bandwidth argument again. Simply by bringing up bandwidth, I know you haven't read up on the issue any more than you understand it (at all)... For the last time, bandwidth has nothing to do with it.

 

[Monkey_feces]

Not only is havok not hardware, but hahahahaahhahahahahahahaahahahahhahahaha

Can I see through your crystal ball too?

Epic is making an entire game engine that uses the PPU, called Unreal engine 3. Ageia has a lineup of over 60+ games that will use the PPU in the future. Look as if someone knows something you don't.....

OMG, the bandwidth argument again. Simply by bringing up bandwidth, I know you haven't read up on the issue any more than you understand it (at all)... For the last time, bandwidth has nothing to do with it.

MooseEdit: NO FLAMING!



I will however, respond to your decent points such as the bandwidth and future ppu use arguments. Face it, no one is going to utilize the full power of the ppu. The development costs would be way too high to provide gaming with a completely interactive, and sizable world. Online gaming would require a huge amount of bandwidth. How do you expect information regarding where the shrapnel flies, who compromised the building's structural integrity, who actually caused the building to collapse with a grenade, how fast was the wind blowing when he threw the grenade, where should the blood splatter, how fast do I move if I am shot in the calf of my left leg compared to if I got shot in my right foot, how did the temperature outside effect the speed in which my machine gun over heated, did that weird rock damage my tank's treads etc. to be transfered between players and the server instantaneously?

 

[Monkey_feces]

With your analogy we where still on a EGA chippie doin 2D games. Pong, tetris.
How would you know. There is not much known about all those PhysX supporting 65+ or 100+ games. One ore more could be the PPU pushing games.
Gameplay PhysX is an option. Effect Physics are also very computational. So could drag a PPU down. But Dev's must take in acount the rest of the setup.

Consoles are the larges market. Why are there Retail Linux and mac games. because they are so large target platform?.
Only the company the clone makers wich publisher want to cash in fast money in short time are the ones that only reach to the bulk of the audience. And then even PC is large enough. To make a fast profit.
There is a different branch the Class AAA Highprofile Game makers wich have a more Upgarde pushin power. And they are willing to support the leatest Hardware optional.
Why would they even make a PC Game if Console are each a more bigger market.
They do so, something is wrong with your point of view.

Yes and BF2 is a commersial sucses. BF2 was a killer app that push a lot off enthausiast gamer to upgrade. A game with a high profile and delivering on expectations and give large gameplay fun can do that. Al new Hardware needs it because each type of new hardware starts with One sell and could reach 1000 or mil to create a larger Tageting market. Killer apps can push hardware.

Never heard of minimum and optimum requierments.
You don't need a PPU for a PhysX game in the period where PPU is introduced.
It's for Optimum and is thus so Optional. $20 to $50 of each other component and you have $250 for a PhysX card. $300 is introduction price. Its not made in stone for forever.
The Class AAA title Dev team are in the busnes to compete wich each other and with that the must go for the latest and greatest new HArdware. More is possible so the can put the level game market has reach again a step higher. Where others who compete must strive for.

? That $3000 is for all PC apps and games. there are 65+ first wave PhysX game wich support PPU. and a lot of theme don't demand one but for optimum with everything on high. Its recommended.
I play a lot of games. If a game needs a upgrade that upgrade is also usable for games what comes in the future.

Like I upgrade for: X3 Reunion and the canceld Stargate SG1 The alliance. With this I could play BF2 and COD2 in high. Also GRaw Rise of legends AA and CF in full.

As if there is only online now a days. Oh yes online is important. But does this means no single player or pure single player ever in a game?

Well those Pure online games would be Effectphysics only. But that comes with pure online games. But there others Pure singleplayer games. Also Games with both. Singleplayer MAssive Gameplay Physcs is no Problem also for Lan Game.
So in lan mode Gameplay physics can be enabled.
It's just a choice Devs must do to go for it. If other devs do the can't stay behind. Competition between games devs.

Well why don't you forget BF2 and all other online shit. thats effectPhyscs only.
Think Of COD2 or what "COD3" could implement. Wich has or will have a large Singleplayer Part.
No 10Mb problem.

LAN a Game with gameplay Physcs in single player. Could enable it in LAN mode. For online mode they could crank up the eyecandy more and make Gameplay Physx toggable.

Pure Online games are not story oriented. There is a large story prefering audience and for that you need single player. Or Coop campain mission play.

There is a lot more then pure FPS online games.

You're right, I did exagerate about how the chances of ageia and its hardware surviving are slim, but if the games continue to implement the hardware poorly, or if at all, the the odds are against it. Bf2 was a killer app that forced everyone to upgrade, but that's different. It didn't try to implement a new hardware platform, which would require many resources. Even if people bought a ppu just to run that one hypothetical killer app, the game would have to retail higher than everything else, such as $70 and up just to break even on the huge development cost. This is why we should all wait and see how the ppu plays out because maybe alternate, more mainstream solutions will be capable enough for the reasons I stated above.

 

[SuperGee]

Keep in mind that there isn't one killer app. There al alway's more and there is some period off time between them.

Some people like BF2 and others not. So Doom3 So Quakr 4 and also counts for upcoming UT2007 and crysis.
Killer aps are not for every one but a decent large part of the total audience.
So I like BF2, Farcry. But don't like IDsoft stuff. Halflive. All high profile games.

If UT2007 and Crysis are killer apps. and atracts each a lot of people. PPU can survive and grow.
Even if Crysis don't support PPU at all. There are different gamers with different choices and most gamers do'nt have the money, time or interest in every game that comes out.

If UT2007 is a sucses. Ageia would lift on that. Even it is only effect Physics. And online only.

 

[defiant007]

Keep in mind that there isn't one killer app. There al alway's more and there is some period off time between them.

Some people like BF2 and others not. So Doom3 So Quakr 4 and also counts for upcoming UT2007 and crysis.
Killer aps are not for every one but a decent large part of the total audience.
So I like BF2, Farcry. But don't like IDsoft stuff. Halflive. All high profile games.

If UT2007 and Crysis are killer apps. and atracts each a lot of people. PPU can survive and grow.
Even if Crysis don't support PPU at all. There are different gamers with different choices and most gamers do'nt have the money, time or interest in every game that comes out.

If UT2007 is a sucses. Ageia would lift on that. Even it is only effect Physics. And online only.

Whats the point in referring to Crysis in support of your argument if it wont support a ppu. If anything it goes to show that games with amazing gameplay physics will not need ppu's.

And as to UT2007, i am willing to bet that by the time it comes out it will support physics calculated by new gen DX10 gpu's and quad core cpus.

 

[Terra]

Whats the point in referring to Crysis in support of your argument if it wont support a ppu. If anything it goes to show that games with amazing gameplay physics will not need ppu's.

And as to UT2007, i am willing to bet that by the time it comes out it will support physics calculated by new gen DX10 gpu's and quad core cpus.

Amazing?!
Bullets that don't affect vegiation(do I really need to point out the linked video's again?!)
Tree's, that break into log and a stub(fixed place breaking) and then the stub "dissapears" when shot again..and nothing more?
Falling tree's that act like gravity on LSD?
You call that "amazing"?!

But I am sure you go hardware requirements and framesrates avavilable for us?
Or are you just pulling a wild guess?

Terra - You had better not be claimg that a CPU is faster than a PPU without proof....

 

[SuperGee]

Whats the point in referring to Crysis in support of your argument if it wont support a ppu. If anything it goes to show that games with amazing gameplay physics will not need ppu's.

the point is you just need at least one PPU enabled killer app UT2k7. Between some non enabled Killerap, Crysis. to pushin the PPU market. More is even better.

And as to UT2007, i am willing to bet that by the time it comes out it will support physics calculated by new gen DX10 gpu's and quad core cpus.

Wow yes I would buy Crysis because of it a wonderfull game with nice vegatation.
It's CPU physX would be put to good use and very functional but cant compete with what PhysX and HavokFX can do. But that alread its a balanced game.

Vista <- dependon each -> DX10 hardware; and quadcore must flood the markt first. that takes time.

I don't know fir sure, but is Crysis a DX9 game as it is for winXP to. Plus for Vista and DX10 it's compiled with DX10 SDK but has a DX9EXL and DX10 path where the Dx9 shaders are optimised for DX10. And DX9 shaders in case DX10 Hardware is absent.
Note the game isn't nativly designed for DX10.

Because that would mean over 100 uniek trees. and less object reuse in a map.
A cool new feature of DX10. More uniekness in maps.

 

[Monkey_feces]

Amazing?!
Bullets that don't affect vegiation(do I really need to point out the linked video's again?!)
Tree's, that break into log and a stub(fixed place breaking) and then the stub "dissapears" when shot again..and nothing more?
Falling tree's that act like gravity on LSD?
You call that "amazing"?!

But I am sure you go hardware requirements and framesrates avavilable for us?
Or are you just pulling a wild guess?

Terra - You had better not be claimg that a CPU is faster than a PPU without proof....

You are just not worth arguing with. No one is fucking claiming is cpu is faster than a ppu. We have treaded over this many times. A high end cpu may become ample for physics processing if developers keep physics at a good balance between realism and capable online play. There's a hell of a lot more chance of that happening than physics being implementented to its fullest in the future. I will bet money that the physics used in ut 07 won't use half of the physics processing power of the ageia and that the conroe will be sufficient to process those physics. The UT series has appealed to many because it is an online deathmatch shooter. Put in too much physics and everyone needs a 10mbps t1 connection.
For someone who flatters himself by ignoring "stupid" people (who provide valid counteragruments) and bragging about it, I'm surprised everyone in this forum hasn't done the same to you. Wait, It's because we aren't toddlers who throw tantrums and try to shove the ppu down other people's throats whenever we are reminded that it is a $300 paperweight as of now.
Feces- "Terra is the epitame of someone who can't face reality."

 

[Monkey_feces]

the point is you just need at least one PPU enabled killer app UT2k7. Between some non enabled Killerap, Crysis. to pushin the PPU market. More is even better.

Wow yes I would buy Crysis because of it a wonderfull game with nice vegatation.
It's CPU physX would be put to good use and very functional but cant compete with what PhysX and HavokFX can do. But that alread its a balanced game.

Vista <- dependon each -> DX10 hardware; and quadcore must flood the markt first. that takes time.

I don't know fir sure, but is Crysis a DX9 game as it is for winXP to. Plus for Vista and DX10 it's compiled with DX10 SDK but has a DX9EXL and DX10 path where the Dx9 shaders are optimised for DX10. And DX9 shaders in case DX10 Hardware is absent.
Note the game isn't nativly designed for DX10.

Because that would mean over 100 uniek trees. and less object reuse in a map.
A cool new feature of DX10. More uniekness in maps.

You hit the mark on many things with that post IMO. However, I doubt there will be a huge difference between physics on a cpu and a ppu/onboard videocard ppu. The cpu would probably perform 5 fps lower(or some marginal difference) than the ppu solutions because its physics features don't seem very complex. That's an estimation pulled out of my ass, but the physics didn't seem like a huge step up from HL2 to me.

 

[SuperGee]

You hit the mark on many things with that post IMO. However, I doubt there will be a huge difference between physics on a cpu and a ppu/onboard videocard ppu. The cpu would probably perform 5 fps lower(or some marginal difference) than the ppu solutions because its physics features don't seem very complex. That's an estimation pulled out of my ass, but the physics didn't seem like a huge step up from HL2 to me.

Just one more.

GPU and CPU power are at a wide range avaible on the market. But for now there is just one PPU. So the power for now is Fix for what that PPU Card can do.
CPU flavors are from old to older to new in all budged to high-end flavors and SC DC later QC. So CPU Physic performance is very variable. Just but more so like GPU.
However like you would need a High-end GPU or a extra one for PhysicGPU stuff

I expect you need a bitty High-end CPU DC that is for Crysis. because those physX will do demand some CPU Procesing power. But what kick in even more hardly a CPU have a lot of other task to do.
Even if a conroe slightly outperformce in raw performance a PPU. Aa PPU can Utilise a Full 100% dedicated to PhysX like a Extra GPU for Physic will do.

While Conroe DC 50/50% total power. Some must be reserved for Physic.
The amount choosen depends on the Defs. The more for PhysX someting else will suffer. The rendering or AI.

So CPU Physic power difference is more spread then GPU wich is also more spread then PPU.

Also the PPU now runs very behind on what is posible on a Production Prosces. but it is a start. and no point at al of its 100% full dedication also in architecture. There will be a Asus P2 Hopefully on a more competive Dieshrink wich means the PPU will out performe easaly a CPU on raw Performance and Compete directly on raw performance with GPU and come in some more favors. Plus its specialised for physics.

The Difference will be only larger, Till CPU will incorporate new type of CoPU's on die.
By then there will be DirectX 12.

 

[psychoace]

I thought you guys were supposed to stop bickering. We are hearing the same information over and over again didn't you learn the first time Terra and CYKS are just instigators and try to twist your words against you. They provide nothing but PR and insults so just leave them alone it's like listening to the kid who thinks he's really smart but dosn't really know shit so stop trying to prove them wrong cause they don't know any better.

 

[DarkStar02]

@Terra: Can you run the same tests, but use NovodeXRocket instead?

 

[cyks]

So CPU Physic performance is very variable.

A CPU cannot compete with dedicated hardware. Never has, never will.

So CPU Physic performance is very variable.

I expect you need a bitty High-end CPU DC that is for Crysis. because those physX will do demand some CPU Procesing power.

There is no such thing as Crysis physx, why do you keep calling it that?

Also the PPU now runs very behind on what is posible on a Production Prosces.

What would the size of the die have anything to do with anything? Are you are going after the HSF now?

 

[jimmyb]

Bullets that don't affect vegiation(do I really need to point out the linked video's again?!)
Tree's, that break into log and a stub(fixed place breaking)
[...]
You call that "amazing"?!

You'll note that shooting down trees is affecting vegetation. Also my impression from the videos that I've watched is the tree breaks where it is shot, but maybe we have to agree to disagree on that.

I don't think anyone is claiming that CPU physics are faster than PPU/GPU physics, just that they are much more likely to become used, and we'd like to see some comparisons.

 

[SuperGee]

I thought you guys were supposed to stop bickering. We are hearing the same information over and over again didn't you learn the first time Terra and CYKS are just instigators and try to twist your words against you. They provide nothing but PR and insults so just leave them alone it's like listening to the kid who thinks he's really smart but dosn't really know shit so stop trying to prove them wrong cause they don't know any better.

I'am talkin about what CPU do for
Crysis
PPU
and what CPU can mean for PhysX.

And the latest and grates Gaming CPU platform Conroe.

Games are CPU/GPU dependant. How much depends on wich game.
PPU has made a triangle so they called it.

I think CPU GPU is a Chian of setup the next Frame. FPS as frames Per second.
PPU triangle is more a looped chain. Or a chain with a loop
CPU PPU CPU GPU.

CPU must set up a lot more PhysX for offload computation. And compute this massive result back in the game logic wich setups the render offload to the GPU. Plus a lot of other things in between AI sound server etc.

The Time per frame is now split in three. where CPU part is made of two sup parts.

So i wonder a PPU game could be More CPU intensive. and also stress the GPU more.
Each part has less time to do there thing.

So would the most game accelerating CPU could benefit PPU. Oh yes I think there is some latency time lost in transporting the load to and the result back. So the Computing time is smaller.
And a DC can make a PC run smoother. Lot's of system threads.

 

[SuperGee]

A CPU cannot compete with dedicated hardware. Never has, never will.

Yah so? What have that to do with like Cellie 400 CPU Physic Proscesing vs a Athlon XP 2400+ vs a Athon X2 3800+ and a X6500 Conroe.
The point is there are manny CPU but also GPU flavors. And only one flavor of PPU.
So bug Psycoace ?

There is no such thing as Crysis physx, why do you keep calling it that?

Oh yes it is. Its short for Physics. X=ICS I hate Typing. So Make me.

What would the size of the die have anything to do with anything? Are you are going after the HSF now?

A large lot of extra Powerrrr. Yes.

Conroe & R580/600 wich PPU competes with in CPU Physics.

Conroe 65nm and for now 60watt limmit
R580 90nm with 100Watt limmit?
PPU 130nm with 30watt.

30Watt sounds like a low power ULV chip. Means Low Vcore low clocks. Can do more if 60watts. OC'ing

65nm tot 130nm means More Transistors IPC and mo clocks more raw performance.

Differens with say 60watts and 65 nm for a Ageia PPU P2 . Could mean 10x the Performance of P1 if Ageia would compete on the same production Prosces as the competition. 5x would be more practical.

Just a estimate But just compare a 130nm ULV 30Watt CPU agains a 90nm 60Watt.
GPU 130nm 30watter and a 90nm 60watt semi high-end chip.

AMD is outsourcing 65nm to Charterred? Ageia could do this to for P2

 

[Terra]

@Terra: Can you run the same tests, but use NovodeXRocket instead?

The NovodeXRocket 1.1 dosn't support the PhysX, så that would be impossible at the moment, sorry...
And since I don't work for AGEIA or are a develpoer I have no access to the AGEIA PhysX SDK v2.4...

Terra - But I wish I did...would stop a lot of FUD...