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BioShock Infinite

MavericK96 said:
Here's another 2011 gameplay trailer...looks fairly different. Though actually, more or less that exact scene at the beginning does happen but in a totally different location, and without Elizabeth doing all the silly stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9m6kJNeuk

Though, heavily scripted I'm guessing. Not sure which I prefer more.

I kinda want to know what happened to all the PhysX objects when you use Bronco...
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Holy shit, I swear to god I have never seen this gameplay footage before until now... and just as I had wished in my previous post, low and behold the player controlling dewitt bronco's some foes and has Elizabeth summon a train! And low and behold we do not have any of that in the final product. Crazy shit.

This latest footage seems to have the retail version's updated "graphics" style, although I prefer the style of the 2010 video you posted, looks better IMO.
 
BETA. said:
Holy shit, I swear to god I have never seen this gameplay footage before until now... and just as I had wished in my previous post, low and behold the player controlling dewitt bronco's some foes and has Elizabeth summon a train! And low and behold we do not have any of that in the final product. Crazy shit.
Click to expand...

i wonder how often that happens when it comes to games as they continue to develop. looks like some major differences
 
BETA. said:
Holy shit, I swear to god I have never seen this gameplay footage before until now... and just as I had wished in my previous post, low and behold the player controlling dewitt bronco's some foes and has Elizabeth summon a train! And low and behold we do not have any of that in the final product. Crazy shit.

This latest footage seems to have the retail version's updated "graphics" style, although I prefer the style of the 2010 video you posted, looks better IMO.
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Yeah I had never seen any of that footage, either. I'm wondering what happened to the huge, open areas with tons of skylines as well. Consoles couldn't handle it...?

Either way I wish they would have more skyline combat like that. Hopefully in the DLC but I dunno.

To me the graphics look about the same in that video (the one I posted was 2011 actually, not 2010) but it's hard to say.
 
Dallows said:
I fail to see how having a dumb npc follow said character and fire at enemies is anywhere near what Elizabeth does. But for some reason you keep denying all the different types of interactions and reaction based detail she has as a character. It's definitely stuff we haven't seen a lot, if any of. But again you keep saying it's not true. You want me to start listing all the things she does scene by scene?
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please, spare us. I was half expecting reviewers to rip into her ass after all this marketing bs and talking up from Levine, but they gave her a pass and I don't hate them for it. since honestly they did a real good job of giving her a presence, but pretty much everything said about all this resource intensive complex ai is just pandering to the layman. you're supposed to be impressed that she can do things, and as well you should be, just don't put them on some sort of pedestal for implementing a few conditionals that are actually a standard days work for any devs that have ever created a decent mob for you to shoot at. it's perfectly safe to say she does more than something like Alyx, simply because they gave her more rules and responses, but to claim her ai is any more complex would just be ignorant.

they couldve told Alyx to drop ammo for your current weapon, or point out objects in the area just as easily as they told her to shoot something in the face, or say something amusing about what you just did. there is absolutely nothing groundbreaking being done here for you or the environment, they created a good character much like Alyx or any other interactive npc, let's just leave it at that. if we were going to be objective about what it adds to gameplay I would actually criticise Liz for too much hand holding, this is something Valve chose not to do, and I appreciate them for it. they are just 2 characters made with some completely different goals in mind, and some of the same.

Alyx's logic and pathfinding was actually better and more complex than Liz in many ways tbh, just because she was more combat oriented. she was able to take cover and return fire, or advance position as an ally, at least appearing vulnerable and reacting to individual threats. not prancing around as if she were invincible, or just going into an automatic "duck and cover and wimper mode" at the beginning of each kill room. they completely failed at this with Liz imo, where she will start cowering if she reaches the next spawn trigger before you do, before any mobs even appear. this is the difference between dynamic and hard coded scripting at work.

Dallows said:
The video I mentioned before if anyone is interested. I actually find it a good talk from Levine overall.

http://www.gamespot.com/bioshock-infinite/videos/the-break-room-interviews-ken-levine-6405619/

Talks about Elizabeth at 41:10-41:30 and 50:00-51:00
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everyone has problems with pathfinding, this is the bane of every ai dev who ever tried to get a character moving on their own. the take away from this should be that they put alot of effort into giving us a convincing companion, and ran into many of the same hurdles that everyone else does, that's it. not that we should be handing out awards for creating npcs that aren't constantly walking into things, or clipping through the ground.
 
mas said:
they completely failed at this with Liz imo, where she will start cowering if she reaches the next spawn trigger before you do, before any mobs even appear. this is the difference between dynamic and hard coded scripting at work.
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I noticed this a lot as well. I'd look around, nothing going on, and see Liz cowering next to a box or something...oh I guess I am about to fight again, huh?

I guess many would say that since she could see into other worlds that, I guess, her advance A.I. would see into the near future and know I was about get attacked...or something like that...:rolleyes:

Sorry, I'll quit trolling...
 
mas said:
snip more bs
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You're obviously right and I'm wrong. Which is why so many games with convincing AI partners/companions exist... that react realistically to objects and situations and go through realistic moods and have a sense of feeling.

You must be such a great resource to the game development team you work on.

JoeUser said:
I noticed this a lot as well. I'd look around, nothing going on, and see Liz cowering next to a box or something...oh I guess I am about to fight again, huh?

I guess many would say that since she could see into other worlds that, I guess, her advance A.I. would see into the near future and know I was about get attacked...or something like that...:rolleyes:

Sorry, I'll quit trolling...
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No that's just where they got it wrong. I'm actually watching a video now of Ken at BAFTA where he says something to that effect when they're talking about her moods. They won't be able to get it right 100% of the time, but they've obviously done their best.
 
It annoys me how I have been hearing people talk about how much better one vigor was than another. How some were overpowered, underpowered, or whatever.
Yet, oddly it seems they all have an issue . So maybe it is just... preference?!
:-O
 
MavericK96 said:
I maxed out Vigor and I think both health and shield have about 8 out of 10 in them so far. And I haven't beaten the game yet. Wouldn't surprise me if you could max them all out (though this is also with the bonus 5 near the start because of the Season Pass pre-order thing).
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Damn ... I recently beat the game and then ordered the Season Pass only to find that the rewards are back at the beginning of the game. No way to redeem them if you've already passed the zone where you could get them.
 
i never played bioshock 1/2 - do you need to know the story of those for this one?
 
Banyan said:
i never played bioshock 1/2 - do you need to know the story of those for this one?
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Never played 2 so I can't comment. I would say you don't need to necessary play Bioshock 1 but you might benefit from it. Or at least familiarizing with the story from Wikipedia or something... watch some youtube videos.
 
Dallows said:
Never played 2 so I can't comment. I would say you don't need to necessary play Bioshock 1 but you might benefit from it. Or at least familiarizing with the story from Wikipedia or something... watch some youtube videos.
Click to expand...

thanks!
 
You'll probably enjoy Infinite much more if you haven't played the first two, which are superior games.
 
Just finished the game...Ending is kinda WTF but I'm sure it'll make more sense if I think about it more...lol...

The last battle was VERY difficult on Hard. Can't even imagine on 1999 mode. I think I'd punch a hole through the monitor.
 
Dallows said:
You're obviously right and I'm wrong. Which is why so many games with convincing AI partners/companions exist... that react realistically to objects and situations and go through realistic moods and have a sense of feeling.

You must be such a great resource to the game development team you work on.



No that's just where they got it wrong. I'm actually watching a video now of Ken at BAFTA where he says something to that effect when they're talking about her moods. They won't be able to get it right 100% of the time, but they've obviously done their best.
Click to expand...

People call me a troll...:rolleyes:
 
I guess I would have to give the game a solid 8.5/10. Could have been a 9 or 10 if a few things were fixed...maybe patches and DLC will bring the score up a bit.

To be totally honest, the ending did not blow my mind THAT much. I mean, once you figure out sort of what is going on (which happens about 3/4 of the way through the game) the ending isn't all that shocking IMO. I mean, it is kinda, but if you think about it before the end you could come to a similar conclusion.

Still, very well done and I want to go replay it for extra details that I missed.

If I had to compare it to a movie, I'd say it's kinda like Primer in terms of confusing time-travel wackiness.

I also was disappointed that there wasn't more to do with the Songbird. You don't fight it and you really don't even find out WTF it is or why it's so attached to Elizabeth. Presumably Comstock built it to protect her but it doesn't really explain how it had the "emotions" it did.
 
MavericK96 said:
Just finished the game...Ending is kinda WTF but I'm sure it'll make more sense if I think about it more...lol...

The last battle was VERY difficult on Hard. Can't even imagine on 1999 mode. I think I'd punch a hole through the monitor.
Click to expand...

It's actually pretty trivial even in 1999 mode:

Place Shock Jockey traps everywhere, with Storm and +Salts gear, you can keep every enemy perma-stunlocked. When the 4 Patriots spawn they don't actually start firing until they walk up to the platform, so keep them stunned there with traps and summon Songbird. After that it's just cleaning up. I ended the fight with more then 3/4 health left on the ship.
 
AceCR42 said:
It's actually pretty trivial even in 1999 mode:

Place Shock Jockey traps everywhere, with Storm and +Salts gear, you can keep every enemy perma-stunlocked. When the 4 Patriots spawn they don't actually start firing until they walk up to the platform, so keep them stunned there with traps and summon Songbird. After that it's just cleaning up. I ended the fight with more then 3/4 health left on the ship.
Click to expand...

I found a ton of gear but never actually any Storm or +Salts stuff, sadly. I guess it's totally randomized? I opened the vast majority of locks that usually lead to gear as well.
 
Yeah gear is randomized. A friend found Storm within the first hour of the game, I didn't get it until about 10 hours in.

Not sure why they decided to make it randomized, as gear like Storm (killing an enemy under the effects of Shock Jockey, Devil's Kiss or Bucking Bronco chains it to nearby enemies) and the Salts pants (40% chance to recover salts whenever you kill an enemy) mess with the difficulty balance of the game pretty significantly.
 
I think at the end I ended up using gear that did:

-Full health when revived
-75% more ammo per clip for all weapons (Season Pass pre-order thing)
-3x melee range
-Something else I can't remember...maybe enemies have a 40% chance of having ammo loot?

I switched out some stuff at various times (like Shock melee and 50% more damage when shooting from Skylines) but that's what I used for the most part.

And yeah, the ones you listed would be significant. Never found any of those. :(


EDIT: Was just looking through achievements, didn't get them all (1999 mode with buying no ammo would be a bitch) but I got one called "Got all infusions during a single game", so I must have gotten them all. I believe in the end there were enough (with the 5 pre-order bonus ones) to max out two attributes and have 8 in the last. So, enough to max out all but two of the Infusion stuff total (if anyone was wondering).
 
MavericK96 said:
I found a ton of gear but never actually any Storm or +Salts stuff, sadly. I guess it's totally randomized? I opened the vast majority of locks that usually lead to gear as well.
Click to expand...

Gear was random. If you found something and die or don't save it's different when you go back. I would lose some pretty bad ass clothing and shit...:eek:
 
AceCR42 said:
Yeah gear is randomized. A friend found Storm within the first hour of the game, I didn't get it until about 10 hours in.

Not sure why they decided to make it randomized, as gear like Storm (killing an enemy under the effects of Shock Jockey, Devil's Kiss or Bucking Bronco chains it to nearby enemies) and the Salts pants (40% chance to recover salts whenever you kill an enemy) mess with the difficulty balance of the game pretty significantly.
Click to expand...

Gear that added +50% critical damage was really handy toward the end of the game. Someone was fed a steady diet of Devil's Kiss and Hail Fire. That made short work of that problem. :D

I didn't get the salt pants...oh that would have been killer.
 
Dallows said:
I've watched some of the old clips and what I think is that they just changed the overall direction of the game at some point. I remember reading like a tweet or something from Levine that someone posted on Reddit i think where he said originally the game was going to center around two opposing factions and comstock wasnt a major player or even in the game.

A lot changes in a games development, especially when it takes 5 years or so.

The powers Elizabeth has in those videos doesnt make sense in the final game, not to me anyway.

Edit: that clip is from 2010 and heavily scripted.
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even the TV commercials used to promote the game's release are showing scenes not in the game at all...there's this extended commercial which shows Elizabeth with a noose around her neck about to be hanged...I think the game was pushed back multiple times in order to tweak the story
 
Perhaps I missed some symbolism or something but I felt like they kinda glossed over the Vox Populi storyline. They didn't really have any major significance in the end IMO. It helped set the tone in the beginning but ultimately felt insignificant to the overall plot other than villainizing Comstock.
 
polonyc2 said:
even the TV commercials used to promote the game's release are showing scenes not in the game at all...there's this extended commercial which shows Elizabeth with a noose around her neck about to be hanged...I think the game was pushed back multiple times in order to tweak the story
Click to expand...

Tweaked story delays wouldn't account for the dramatic changes to the game we got vs. what we were shown.

Personally I think they tried to make the game with too much stuff...in the end it was too difficult and/or time consuming to do everything properly so they scraped the original game, reused assets, and just churned out what we ended up getting.

I mean, lets be honest here, if this game was in production since 2007/2008 than that would be pretty sad considering what we ended up getting. I've seen game mod teams with a fraction of the people, time, and budget (if any) come out with nicer looking and playing games than this one.
 
JoeUser said:
Tweaked story delays wouldn't account for the dramatic changes to the game we got vs. what we were shown.

Personally I think they tried to make the game with too much stuff...in the end it was too difficult and/or time consuming to do everything properly so they scraped the original game, reused assets, and just churned out what we ended up getting.

I mean, lets be honest here, if this game was in production since 2007/2008 than that would be pretty sad considering what we ended up getting. I've seen game mod teams with a fraction of the people, time, and budget (if any) come out with nicer looking and playing games than this one.
Click to expand...

I could understand people not agreeing with the 10/10 scores but to give it a 5/10 is ridiculous...at its worst Infinite's story is better and more ambitious then most games released in the last 5 years...the combat mechanics are not what BioShock has ever been about...BioShock is a thinking man's game...story based gameplay is sorely lacking these days as nobody seems to like to think anymore...the first 2 Mass Effect games were also pretty slick until they decided that the masses want dumbed-down games
 
polonyc2 said:
I could understand people not agreeing with the 10/10 scores but to give it a 5/10 is ridiculous...at its worst Infinite's story is better and more ambitious then most games released in the last 5 years...the combat mechanics are not what BioShock has ever been about...BioShock is a thinking man's game...story based gameplay is sorely lacking these days as nobody seems to like to think anymore...the first 2 Mass Effect games were also pretty slick until they decided that the masses want dumbed-down games
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I agree with this. Only issue (and this is the dev's fault) is that, yes, combat mechanics are not what Bioshock has ever been about. However the problem is that in Infinite combat is certainly the main focus of the game. If you aren't just walking around or in a cut scene you are fighting. No puzzles, no minigames, no nothing...it's either story, scavenging, or shooting.
 
soekev said:
I enjoyed Infinite immensely ... would I enjoy 2, too?
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I think Bioshock 1 was brilliant. I feel the same about the first as many do about Infinite. Bioshock 2 however...meh...I beat it but it I certainly didn't get the level of enjoyment in anyway that I did with the first.
 
JoeUser said:
I agree with this. Only issue (and this is the dev's fault) is that, yes, combat mechanics are not what Bioshock has ever been about. However the problem is that in Infinite combat is certainly the main focus of the game. If you aren't just walking around or in a cut scene you are fighting. No puzzles, no minigames, no nothing...it's either story, scavenging, or shooting.
Click to expand...

Which is ironic because the combat mechanics feel lackluster and missing out on some good opportunities compared to the 2010-2011 gameplay footage.
 
dremic said:
i wonder how often that happens when it comes to games as they continue to develop. looks like some major differences
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You'd shit your pants at just how often things that "sound cool" get cut, after seeing them in action.
 
dremic said:
i wonder how often that happens when it comes to games as they continue to develop. looks like some major differences
Click to expand...

You'd shit your pants at just how often things that "sound cool" get cut, after seeing them in action.
 
dremic said:
i wonder how often that happens when it comes to games as they continue to develop. looks like some major differences
Click to expand...

You'd shit your pants at just how often things that "sound cool" get cut, after seeing them in action.
 
Well that's good, 3 posts. How in the hell do I delete them...
 
polonyc2 said:
even the TV commercials used to promote the game's release are showing scenes not in the game at all...there's this extended commercial which shows Elizabeth with a noose around her neck about to be hanged...I think the game was pushed back multiple times in order to tweak the story
Click to expand...

I would never equate what a CGI trailer is to the actual game. That's just silly. Nothing we're show in CGI trailers provides a realistic interpretation. Case in point - the Starcraft 2 stuff.

JoeUser said:
Tweaked story delays wouldn't account for the dramatic changes to the game we got vs. what we were shown.

Personally I think they tried to make the game with too much stuff...in the end it was too difficult and/or time consuming to do everything properly so they scraped the original game, reused assets, and just churned out what we ended up getting.

I mean, lets be honest here, if this game was in production since 2007/2008 than that would be pretty sad considering what we ended up getting. I've seen game mod teams with a fraction of the people, time, and budget (if any) come out with nicer looking and playing games than this one.
Click to expand...

First of all - bullshit. Mods are just that, mods. They're more like visual changes and added items, shit like that. They're working with developer provided tools (most of the time) to tweak a fully functioning game. They didn't have to really build anything from scratch, or create an entire game on their own, story, characters, etc. A lot of them do great work, but it's a far stretch from creating a full, new original game.

Except we didn't get "tweaked" story delays. I'm betting there were major changes to the game overall. I already said earlier that in the beginning stages Comstock was a completely different character and the main focus was between two "warring" factions. The ending alone took them 4 months to settle upon by the way.

There were also delays to make sure the game worked the best it could at launch, that's what a good developer does.

You guys keep harping on these few 10 or 15 minute "gameplay(heavily scripted linear events)" videos that would only show a fraction of the game. So you really have no idea what the big picture was at that time. I never really followed the games development but no one gives huge plot points and major story elements early on. Point being you don't know anything about it's real development cycle.

JoeUser said:
I agree with this. Only issue (and this is the dev's fault) is that, yes, combat mechanics are not what Bioshock has ever been about. However the problem is that in Infinite combat is certainly the main focus of the game. If you aren't just walking around or in a cut scene you are fighting. No puzzles, no minigames, no nothing...it's either story, scavenging, or shooting.
Click to expand...

The combat mechanics are fine. It's the player who is at fault. And the reason I say that is because they give you 8 by the end. Even if you have like 5 throughout the bulk of the game that's still a lot to experiment with. It's the players fault for not exploring those options. You might come back and say "well this vigor and that are the only ones worth it." But I would argue against that saying if you would experiment you could come up with some neat stuff. It's something I plan to do more of in my 2nd run that I did not do in my first run. And that's not the developer's fault.

I never once found myself wanting puzzles or mini-games. It's a story driven game and it does that job quite well.

This forum is one of the best at taking on a critic's role. You guys sit back and play the spoils of other people's hard work and dedication, then bitch when something isn't how you wanted it, or pictured it.

Whether you like the game or not it's production quality is among the best, especially recently. The Irrational team worked very hard on this game and I for one, appreciate what they have done.
 
I kind of like those little mini-game puzzle things, but there was never really too much plan for those as far as I remember way back. It doesn't really add that much to the game, but it's a good break-up between doing all the other things in the game. The more the better I say.
 
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