Billy Mitchell Now Suing Karl Jobst

[Zarathustra[H]]

...but throwing out the history of the origin of the video games played today is ridiculous. Many of the people that played arcade games in the 70's and early 80's are pioneers in the video game industry.

Agree to disagree I guess?

Some of the same people may have been involved early on, but its not as if there is some sort of straight line or influence you can tie back to from early 2D platform sprite stuff to modern titles. I see it less as an evolution from there to here, and more as that being a dead branch, and what we have today being something new.

The furthest back I can trace some relevant modern titles is to is the early 90's when the likes of Wolfenstein 3D and Sid Meier's Civllization first launched. Anyhting before that is distinct and different. Yes, there was a Castle Wolfenstein on the Atari in 1981, but that shared little other than the name.

Something big happened between this:

and this...

And I fail to see any real link between this:

and this:

I would argue that 2D Sprite platformers and arcade games are not relevant at all to modern gaming, and there is next to no line of influence between them.

 

[wizzi01]

Agree to disagree I guess?

Some of the same people may have been involved early on, but its not as if there is some sort of straight line or influence you can tie back to from early 2D platform sprite stuff to modern titles. I see it less as an evolution from there to here, and more as that being a dead branch, and what we have today being something new.

The furthest back I can trace some relevant modern titles is to is the early 90's when the likes of Wolfenstein 3D and Sid Meier's Civllization first launched. Anyhting before that is distinct and different. Yes, there was a Castle Wolfenstein on the Atari in 1981, but that shared little other than the name.

Something big happened between this:

View attachment 602852

and this...

View attachment 602853



And I fail to see any real link between this:

View attachment 602854

and this:

View attachment 602856

I would argue that 2D Sprite platformers and arcade games are not relevant at all to modern gaming, and there is next to no line of influence between them.

It had to start somewhere. if it didn't in the 70/80s then it would have been later on and we would not be where we are with games, but you know this and your opinion is rather invalid.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

It had to start somewhere. if it didn't in the 70/80s then it would have been later on and we would not be where we are with games, but you know this and your opinion is rather invalid.

Nah.

I maintain that modern gaming has its roots in the early 90's, and everything before that was distinct and different.

I mean, maybe it helped create an industry and show that there was interest in games, but the products themselves were completely different animals. Todays games have absolutely nothing in common with anything we played on our Colecovisions, Atari's or even the modern modern 8bit NES.

Except for maybe some of the modern surviving platformers (which I am still surprised every time I see people actually playing them.

Heck, even when I played Commander Keen back in the early 90's it felt like a throwback to an earlier era. I remember thinking something along the lines of "wow, this 16 color 2d sprite platformer stuff feels really old school. We have Doom now".

 

[M76]

I would argue that 2D Sprite platformers and arcade games are not relevant at all to modern gaming, and there is next to no line of influence between them.

There are lots of indies making sprite or retro style games. I might not be into that, but to completely dismiss them out of existence is a bit ridiculous.

There absolutely is a line between early games and modern ones, they are part of gaming history and we can't forget about them any more than we can forget about electron tubes because we have transistors now.

 

[Axman]

Arcade games and the people who play them should have stayed in the 70's and early 80's where they belong. Nothing could be further from relevancy in 2023.

Well since they're still making Mario games it's kind of weird to say that of all things Donkey Kong is irrelevant.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Well since they're still making Mario games it's kind of weird to say that of all things Donkey Kong is irrelevant.

Or perhaps more directly there is a line from:
SMB
SMB3
Super Mario World
Mario 64

Or in other words a direct line from 2d to 3d. This also happened with a lot of other titles like Zelda, Metroid, etc.

 

[rinaldo00]

Something big happened between this:


and this...

Yes, this

Battlezone is a first-person shooter tank combat game released for arcades in November 1980 by Atari, Inc. The player controls a tank which is attacked by other tanks and missiles, using a small radar scanner to locate enemies around them in the barren landscape. Its innovative use of 3D graphics made it a huge hit, with approximately 15,000 cabinets sold.

With its use of three-dimensional vector graphics, the game is considered to be the first true 3D arcade game with a first-person perspective,[10] the "first big 3D success" in the video game industry,[11] and the first successful first-person shooter video game in particular, making it a milestone for first-person shooter games.[10]

1980, 3D, a decade before Doom.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Or perhaps more directly there is a line from:
SMB
SMB3
Super Mario World
Mario 64

Or in other words a direct line from 2d to 3d. This also happened with a lot of other titles like Zelda, Metroid, etc.

Good point.

I kind of made a clean break as I haven't used a console since my 8 bit NES in the early 90's.

The last Mario I played was SMB2. The last Zelda I played was Zelda II: Link (the second golden cartridge) I haven't seen a Castlevania, Metroid, Mega Man or Ghosts n Goblins or whatever else there is since then either. I vaguely remember a Solid Gear game back then too, but I never really liked it, and never saw the series again.

In the early years on the PC I recall playing a variety of games, including some platformers (Commander Keen, Rick Dangerous II, Another Life, etc.) some fighting games (4D Boxing and One Must Fall 2097 stand out) and there were also some strategy games (Warlords, and Warlords II as well as Sid Meier's Civilization) but probably since at least the launch of Quake in 1996 gaming for me has been all FPS all the time.

And this was reinforced in the community too. All reviews and benchmarks were on Quake, Quake2, Q3A or Half-Life. This was really all that was discussed in the hardware news or overclocking forums from my memory. I certainly had a sense that some platformers still existed on Nintendo and they had evolved to 3d, but that felt like irrelevant distant third tier stuff for children.

It's like there was a clean break in ~1996 where everything before it was cast off, and there was a new world moving forward. The Quakes, Half-Life, Deus Ex, Counter-Strike, etc. etc. Platformers seemed to be horribly antique 80's stuff, and things for children. Even 3rd person titles felt like console trash. It felt very much like PC Gaming was FPS, and FPS was PC gaming, and with a few notable exceptions (Warcraft/StarCraft, Sid Meier's Civilization and Diablo) that is pretty much the way it was for a decade, before console ports started being a thing, and pulled in 3rd person and other stuff again.

So I am aware that some of these things existed, but they felt kind of separate in a separate world that was console. Mario/Zelda stuff for kids, some fighting games and 3rd person titles for console players, but these worlds didn't really intersect with mine in person or online. I didn't know anyone who played them (at least who was older than 12) and they weren't really discussed in the online communities either.

So I may have neglected some of these lower tier gaming experiences that were semi-present in the background, but I generally kind of thought of them in the same sense as we think of FarmVille or Candy Crush. They were kind of "not real games".

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Good point.

I kind of made a clean break as I haven't used a console since my 8 bit NES in the early 90's.

The last Mario I played was SMB2. The last Zelda I played was Zelda II: Link (the second golden cartridge) I haven't seen a Castlevania, Metroid, Mega Man or Ghosts n Goblins or whatever else there is since then either. I vaguely remember a Solid Gear game back then too, but I never really liked it, and never saw the series again.

In the early years on the PC I recall playing a variety of games, including some platformers (Commander Keen, Rick Dangerous II, Another Life, etc.) some fighting games (4D Boxing and One Must Fall 2097 stand out) and there were also some strategy games (Warlords, and Warlords II as well as Sid Meier's Civilization) but probably since at least the launch of Quake in 1996 gaming for me has been all FPS all the time.

And this was reinforced in the community too. All reviews and benchmarks were on Quake, Quake2, Q3A or Half-Life. This was really all that was discussed in the hardware news or overclocking forums from my memory. I certainly had a sense that some platformers still existed on Nintendo and they had evolved to 3d, but that felt like irrelevant distant third tier stuff for children.

It's like there was a clean break in ~1996 where everything before it was cast off, and there was a new world moving forward. The Quakes, Half-Life, Deus Ex, Counter-Strike, etc. etc. Platformers seemed to be horribly antique 80's stuff, and things for children. Even 3rd person titles felt like console trash. It felt very much like PC Gaming was FPS, and FPS was PC gaming, and with a few notable exceptions (Warcraft/StarCraft, Sid Meier's Civilization and Diablo) that is pretty much the way it was for a decade, before console ports started being a thing, and pulled in 3rd person and other stuff again.

So I am aware that some of these things existed, but they felt kind of separate in a separate world that was console. Mario/Zelda stuff for kids, some fighting games and 3rd person titles for console players, but these worlds didn't really intersect with mine in person or online. I didn't know anyone who played them (at least who was older than 12) and they weren't really discussed in the online communities either.

So I may have neglected some of these lower tier gaming experiences that were semi-present in the background, but I generally kind of thought of them in the same sense as we think of FarmVille or Candy Crush. They were kind of "not real games".

I guess? But that is rewriting a lot of history right there. 1996 in a way as you say was a big cutoff as that was the launch year of Nintendo 64. And Playstation was well under way.

A lot of the world moved from taking 2d concepts and putting them into 3d and/or having system limitations in doing so. Hence the launch of Final Fantasy VII, a pre-rendered background + 3d polygon hybrid vs its predecessor that was 100% sprite based on SNES.

Back to the main point though, the impact of console gaming in that time was far larger than the PC space. It’s the same reason why consoles are driving the bus even today. Most games and gaming “is for casuals” if you want to put it that way. Console gaming has always been what has brought gaming to the masses and that is definitely the overwhelming majority (when counted as a single group) than all of PC gaming as a group. In the 90’s games were ported from PC to these consoles. Doom 64 for many was arguably the best version of Doom until relatively recently. But by the 2000’s with Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube, multi-platform launches were the order of the day.

So I would say it’s pretty dismissive in general to say that it was “stuff for children”. It was, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t also for adults. Broad appeal is the exact opposite of a limitation. It’s no more limiting than dessert or animated movies or burgers. Which is to say: not at all. Lack of awareness of all this happening doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening or that it wasn’t a massive driving force.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I guess? But that is rewriting a lot of history right there. 1996 in a way as you say was a big cutoff as that was the launch year of Nintendo 64. And Playstation was well under way.

A lot of the world moved from taking 2d concepts and putting them into 3d and/or having system limitations in doing so. Hence the launch of Final Fantasy VII, a pre-rendered background + 3d polygon hybrid vs its predecessor that was 100% sprite based on SNES.

Back to the main point though, the impact of console gaming in that time was far larger than the PC space. It’s the same reason why consoles are driving the bus even today. Most games and gaming “is for casuals” if you want to put it that way. Console gaming has always been what has brought gaming to the masses and that is definitely the overwhelming majority (when counted as a single group) than all of PC gaming as a group. In the 90’s games were ported from PC to these consoles. Doom 64 for many was arguably the best version of Doom until relatively recently. But by the 2000’s with Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube, multi-platform launches were the order of the day.

So I would say it’s pretty dismissive in general to say that it was “stuff for children”. It was, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t also for adults. Broad appeal is the exact opposite of a limitation. It’s no more limiting than dessert or animated movies or burgers. Which is to say: not at all. Lack of awareness of all this happening doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening or that it wasn’t a massive driving force.

I'm not sure I'm re-writing it. That's the history as I lived it.

(I've actually never played a Final Fantasy game, so I can't speak to that)

Your point is taken though.

 

[Meeho]

So I may have neglected some of these lower tier gaming experiences that were semi-present in the background

 

[UnknownSouljer]

I'm not sure I'm re-writing it. That's the history as I lived it.

Not rewriting in the sense of your perception of that time.
But rewriting in the sense of what actually happened. Your subjective experience is not what I’m questioning.
FWIW, I lived through that time as well. Our paths through gaming was (apparently) just very different. At least in the sense that I seem to have played way more of both and you opted only for PC gaming.

/*gaming rambling nostalgia
I loved both Quake and Mario 64. I have played more of both than I can remember really. And I really loved Brian “Duckman” Holmes original Navy Seals mod for Q1 which would eventually become the basis for CS in the Q2 engine. I kept up with every new title as they dropped for the Q2 engine. Like Sin and Kingpin. And remember the launches of major titles like Half-Life 1. Shogo for whatever reason also left a big impact on me (though now it’s considered a totally obscure title). And Tribes was probably the first title I embraced online play for (and yes later UT2k4 which was a landmark DM title and Q3a). I also was a big Blizzard fan throughout that era playing SC, D1, and later D2 extensively.
But I started literally with DOS games, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Doom II, ROTT, etc. Heck, I even played my fair share of SpaceWars. And in school all of the keyboard typing games like Mavis Beacon.
Meanwhile I also played a lot of SNES, N64, and Gamecube throughout those gens as well. (I also did play NES, but I was pretty limited during that generation due to me getting to it late and not having a family that could simply buy a bunch of titles - but I have a lot of fond memories of going to friends houses and playing Contra. Atari I only ever played at a friends house, but did experience it in the late 80s. I had one friend who even had a TB16).
*/

(I've actually never played a Final Fantasy game, so I can't speak to that)

It was just another direct title to bring up that moved from sprites to 3D. There are innumerable examples though.
Heck, technically even Starcraft, Civ, and SimCity went from 2d sprite based to 3d. StarCraft hilariously had an Nintendo 64 port which I never played, but even back at that time I imagined must’ve been nearly impossible to do on a thumbstick vs kb/m.

Your point is taken though.

 

[wizzi01]

Nah.

I maintain that modern gaming has its roots in the early 90's, and everything before that was distinct and different.

I mean, maybe it helped create an industry and show that there was interest in games, but the products themselves were completely different animals. Todays games have absolutely nothing in common with anything we played on our Colecovisions, Atari's or even the modern modern 8bit NES.

Except for maybe some of the modern surviving platformers (which I am still surprised every time I see people actually playing them.

Heck, even when I played Commander Keen back in the early 90's it felt like a throwback to an earlier era. I remember thinking something along the lines of "wow, this 16 color 2d sprite platformer stuff feels really old school. We have Doom now".

I could argue more, but you love to hear yourself speak while not saying much of anything worth value.

 

[rinaldo00]

I'm not sure I'm re-writing it. That's the history as I lived it.

You remind me of kids today when asked about WWII, WWI, or any historical event. They answer "I dunno, that was before I was born." Many of your posts are self centered in the sense that if you don't like something or never heard of it then it must not be important or worthwhile.

 

[SPARTAN VI]

View attachment 602853

Not to dog pile or anything, but I found it pretty impressive that of all the Wolf3D screenshots you could post, you managed to find the one Mac-enstein 3D (1995) screenshot on the web. Most impressive.

 

[sharknice]

I think Donkey Kong and other old games are relevant pieces of history, but I do understand the sentiment of not caring about records for them. Especially when he or maybe it was someone else claimed that he was the "greatest gamer of all time".

It's a single player game and it's extremely simple. The only "legit" way to play is on an antique. A lot of people could probably get a perfect score if they cared to put the same amount of time and effort he did into it.
It's extremely low on the list of gaming accomplishments to be impressed by.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

I think Donkey Kong and other old games are relevant pieces of history, but I do understand the sentiment of not caring about records for them. Especially when he or maybe it was someone else claimed that he was the "greatest gamer of all time".

It's a single player game and it's extremely simple. The only "legit" way to play is on an antique. A lot of people could probably get a perfect score if they cared to put the same amount of time and effort he did into it.
It's extremely low on the list of gaming accomplishments to be impressed by.

I meaaaan. Yes? But play time and knowledge (both of those things) are basically the difference between all speed runners and normal players in any video game.

 

[StoleMyOwnCar]

Agree to disagree I guess?

Some of the same people may have been involved early on, but its not as if there is some sort of straight line or influence you can tie back to from early 2D platform sprite stuff to modern titles. I see it less as an evolution from there to here, and more as that being a dead branch, and what we have today being something new.

The furthest back I can trace some relevant modern titles is to is the early 90's when the likes of Wolfenstein 3D and Sid Meier's Civllization first launched. Anyhting before that is distinct and different. Yes, there was a Castle Wolfenstein on the Atari in 1981, but that shared little other than the name.

Something big happened between this:

View attachment 602852

and this...

View attachment 602853



And I fail to see any real link between this:

View attachment 602854

and this:

View attachment 602856

I would argue that 2D Sprite platformers and arcade games are not relevant at all to modern gaming, and there is next to no line of influence between them.

I sort of get what you're getting at. I think you've got some valid subpoints, but I don't think it's right to call modern gaming an absolute disconnect from past gaming. At a meta level, even caveman games are relevant to modern games. For instance, most games have some objective that you must complete to win (whether it be by a section or the entire thing). There could be certain limitations and stipulations you have to fulfill. This is true even today in Cyberpunk. You have health. Mario had lives. Zelda had hearts. Sometimes you have a timer. Most times you have a coded adversary that prevents you from easily reaching these goals. These are barebones elements that many titles throughout the ages have. The interactivity and graphics layers are separate from these meta elements that are essentially present regardless of title.

On the other hand, if you decided to separate out games by genre, and then decided to systematically list out the meta components that make them up, there are definitely individual meta components that have come to a dead end. For instance, some/many older games were made for an arcade and designed to make you waste as much money as possible by being absurdly difficult and limiting your margin of error per playthrough quite drastically. This is a meta element that is definitely at a dead end. It's been changed and adapted into "souls-like" games (and Rogue/Roguelite games?) because there are people who enjoy some difficulty like that, but the overall incentive and procedure of implementation is different, arguably to the point where it's at an almost complete disconnect with the past.

There are also meta components that have definitely been born due to technological advancement, that are completely separated from the past. For instance, actual physical movement being linked (1 to 1 with an in-game avatar) to virtual gameplay elements. Arguably this was a thing whenever we invented ray gun shooter titles, but, while you could technically argue that this is an interactivity layer that's linkable to modern VR titles (or maybe, say the Nintendo Wii and similar platforms before that), I would argue that it's different enough in scope and complexity to be almost completely disconnected. Then, the concept of actually being physically (for your visual senses anyway) enveloped within an interacting with a virtual title to the extent that is possible in modern VR titles presents a complete disconnect with anything that's too far back because of sheer technological impossibility to even simulate such a thing on any equivalent basis in the past.

This is arguably also true in modern open world/exploration titles vs previous ones. It used to be technologically impossible to actually create a beautiful world to explore in the past. As such, older "open world" titles were more gameplay and objective focused. You could just complete the objectives somewhat asynchronously sometimes, in a large world to roam. But modern open world titles are leagues away from the old titles because they have an element that used to be impossible: "taking in the sights". This element is literally linked to technological advancements and was not possible until more recent times. There is also 3D traversal (like actual 3D traversal, not fake) and other such elements to take into account.

It's a complex and nuanced subject, to be sure.

 

[sharknice]

I meaaaan. Yes? But play time and knowledge (both of those things) are basically the difference between all speed runners and normal players in any video game.

Sort of, modern games are way more complex than Donkey Kong, so there is at least a variety of skills invovled and discovery of tricks and whatnot, and they typically have way more people playing them.

Putting in the time and dedication into something is impressive, but if there are only a couple people doing it.... meh.

There are modern PvP games where millions of people literally play 8+ hours a day and the top players are so good that you could not legitimately say "I could do that".

 

[toast0]

For instance, some/many older games were made for an arcade and designed to make you waste as much money as possible by being absurdly difficult and limiting your margin of error per playthrough quite drastically. This is a meta element that is definitely at a dead end.

Eh Mobile free to play games are all about putting up walls when you played too much that you can get around by inserting coins. It's not really about difficulty anymore though. There are absurdly difficult games, but they're different too.

 

[M76]

For instance, some/many older games were made for an arcade and designed to make you waste as much money as possible by being absurdly difficult and limiting your margin of error per playthrough quite drastically. This is a meta element that is definitely at a dead end.

I wish it was a dead end but many modern "recurrent spending" focused games are designed the same way. Success is not measured by how many copies are sold but by how many hours players are spending in the game and more importantly how much cash they spend during that time on microtransactions.

But instead of being absurdly difficult games are absurdly grindy, or in case of multiplayer absurdly pay to win. Or "just" pay to look cool, which is equally bad in my opinion.

Eh Mobile free to play games are all about putting up walls when you played too much that you can get around by inserting coins.

In F2P games that too much is usually 10 minutes before it starts asking you for money to unlock features and additional levels.

 

[Falkentyne]

Agree to disagree I guess?

Some of the same people may have been involved early on, but its not as if there is some sort of straight line or influence you can tie back to from early 2D platform sprite stuff to modern titles. I see it less as an evolution from there to here, and more as that being a dead branch, and what we have today being something new.

The furthest back I can trace some relevant modern titles is to is the early 90's when the likes of Wolfenstein 3D and Sid Meier's Civllization first launched. Anyhting before that is distinct and different. Yes, there was a Castle Wolfenstein on the Atari in 1981, but that shared little other than the name.

Something big happened between this:

View attachment 602852

and this...

View attachment 602853



And I fail to see any real link between this:

View attachment 602854

and this:

View attachment 602856

I would argue that 2D Sprite platformers and arcade games are not relevant at all to modern gaming, and there is next to no line of influence between them.

Ultima and Bard's Tale / Wizardry would like to have a word with you.
And we would not have a Baldur's Gate 3 without Pool of Radiance.
Oh, and how did SSI develop Pool of Radiance after they got the license?
By evolving their Wizard's Crown engine (many of the combat and menu options that were in those non AD&D games were also present in the Gold Box games).

(And Wasteland 2 and 3 also exist).

 

[Sir Beregond]

Arcade games and the people who play them should have stayed in the 70's and early 80's where they belong. Nothing could be further from relevancy in 2023.

Here's one for you. These old arcade games still exist and are quite popular in arcade and pinball bars where you grab some beers and then pop a quarter into the Frogger or PacMan machines. And let me tell you, I literally see everyone in there ranging from 20's college kids to people who were probably playing this shit in the 70s and 80s.

I guess the only difference is that no one there is taking it seriously, its just something to do for an hour or two and after a few beers whose actually trying particularly hard?

The pinball guys though, they get serious sometimes.

 

[1_rick]

So. Arse Technica has a post out today saying that Billy and Twin Galaxies settled their lawsuit, resulting in Billy's scores being reinstated. On the flip side, Karl Jobst has a new post out today saying BIlly lost (I'm watching it now so I don't know how Karl got his title).
Edit: Karl says that rather than reinstating Billy's scores as such, they're adding an archived version of their scores from some time in the past when Billy's scores were still there. Also, apparently Billy got a so-called expert witness to claim that Billy's tapes could look like MAME instead of actual arcade rendering because Billy's hardware could be defective due to aging, or maybe copying copies of video tapes could've made that happen. Screenshot below, comparing MAME, Billy's tape, and actual hardware.

Also, a quote from Arse:

Mitchell's scores appear on "The Original TG Historical Database," a newly created section of the site that serves as a "historical archive of the original score database, copied verbatim from the system obtained during Twin Galaxies' acquisition in 2014." That "unmodified, legacy snapshot preserv[es] performances and achievements predating the current TG ownership and modern adjudication protocols," Twin Galaxies writes. Mitchell's scores still do not appear on Twin Galaxies' main page of Donkey Kong scores, which reflect more modern adjudication decisions.


In its statement, Twin Galaxies cites recent testimony from Dr. Michael Zayda, who was presented as an expert at the trial. Zayda's testimony concluded that Mitchell's submitted gameplay "could in fact depict play on original unmodified Donkey Kong arcade hardware if the hardware involved was malfunctioning, likely due to degradation of components."

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7mE1LkkOGg


From 5:08 in the Karl video:

 

[Meeho]

https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/6194/twin-galaxies-statement/5

In fair consideration of the expert opinion provided by Dr. Zyda on behalf of Mr. Mitchell, and consistent with Twin Galaxies' dedication to the meticulous documentation and preservation of video game score history, Twin Galaxies shall heretofore reinstate all of Mr. Mitchell’s scores as part of the official historical database on Twin Galaxies’ website.

 

[cjcox]

Searching..... searching.... nope. I still don't care.

 

[1_rick]

win Galaxies shall heretofore reinstate all of Mr. Mitchell’s scores as part of the official historical database on Twin Galaxies’ website.

You can compare https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/donkey-kong/arcade/points-hammer-allowed/page/1 and https://www.twingalaxies.com/The-Original-TG-Historical-Database (if for some reason you want to), although there's no direct link to the actual record list on the latter; you have to search for DOnkey Kong, then pick Arcade, Hammer Allowed. And FWIW, BIlly's top score is like 10th place there (I thought he claimed to be first place? Or maybe he was, when he submitted it but got beat later? I dunno, I don't really care enough to check.

 

[MaZa]

So. Arse Technica has a post out today saying that Billy and Twin Galaxies settled their lawsuit, resulting in Billy's scores being reinstated. On the flip side, Karl Jobst has a new post out today saying BIlly lost (I'm watching it now so I don't know how Karl got his title).
Edit: Karl says that rather than reinstating Billy's scores as such, they're adding an archived version of their scores from some time in the past when Billy's scores were still there. Also, apparently Billy got a so-called expert witness to claim that Billy's tapes could look like MAME instead of actual arcade rendering because Billy's hardware could be defective due to aging, or maybe copying copies of video tapes could've made that happen. Screenshot below, comparing MAME, Billy's tape, and actual hardware.

Also, a quote from Arse:




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7mE1LkkOGg


From 5:08 in the Karl video:

View attachment 627751

It is very anticlimatic ending to this because it was very obvious that Billy-boy was a lying cheating scumback. Again a good example of "why loser pays it all" is necessary because the reason why it was settled was because Twin Galaxies did not want to invest that much money on a lawsuit that wouldn't pay itself back in the case they win. After all this wasn't a lawsuit about damages inflicted. Not exactly a good motivation to chase justice if it results in them losing more money than if they just settle with the scummy side and both lose little but the scummy one gets to keep his bragging rights.

I do hope this doesn't affect Karls lawsuit with Billy. Even though the reason why he is being sued is different it was still born from this Twin Galaxies lawsuit.

Now, Billy is still banned from ever submitting scores (not that he would want to) because he is still considered a cheater, but because his name is back on the site he can twist this any way he wants for people who are not aware of the final details of this case.

 

[Tsumi]

It is very anticlimatic ending to this because it was very obvious that Billy-boy was a lying cheating scumback. Again a good example of "why loser pays it all" is necessary because the reason why it was settled was because Twin Galaxies did not want to invest that much money on a lawsuit that wouldn't pay itself back in the case they win. After all this wasn't a lawsuit about damages inflicted. Not exactly a good motivation to chase justice if it results in them losing more money than if they just settle with the scummy side and both lose little but the scummy one gets to keep his bragging rights.

I do hope this doesn't affect Karls lawsuit with Billy. Even though the reason why he is being sued is different it was still born from this Twin Galaxies lawsuit.

Now, Billy is still banned from ever submitting scores (not that he would want to) because he is still considered a cheater, but because his name is back on the site he can twist this any way he wants for people who are not aware of the final details of this case.

What actually happened was TG's lawyer got caught contacting Billy's witnesses and was about to be held in contempt of the court for witness tampering/intimidation. It's in the comments of Karl's video and it is curious as to why Karl neglected to mention that.

This should have been a slam dunk case and TG's lawyer's actions forced them to settle, leading to what really is a loss for TG, not for Billy Mitchell as Karl claims. Technically it's not a loss for either side since it's a settlement but anything where Billy doesn't lose is really a loss for the other side.

 

[toast0]

Also, apparently Billy got a so-called expert witness to claim that Billy's tapes could look like MAME instead of actual arcade rendering because Billy's hardware could be defective due to aging, or maybe copying copies of video tapes could've made that happen

I don't see how failing, old hardware is going to figure out how to draw things in a different order. Or how copied tapes are going to get things out of order either...

Stuff drawn in the wrong place or other glitches, sure. But this seems pretty much mame, IMHO.

 

[t1337duder]

I had faith in Billy, and he came through. I don't believe in having idols, but I do believe in Billy Mitchell. People treat the guy as if he's Trump or something, yeesh.

 

[Armenius]

I don't see how failing, old hardware is going to figure out how to draw things in a different order. Or how copied tapes are going to get things out of order either...

Stuff drawn in the wrong place or other glitches, sure. But this seems pretty much mame, IMHO.

Because the judge is tech-illiterate, like every judge in the US.

 

[Bigbacon]

What actually happened was TG's lawyer got caught contacting Billy's witnesses and was about to be held in contempt of the court for witness tampering/intimidation. It's in the comments of Karl's video and it is curious as to why Karl neglected to mention that.

This should have been a slam dunk case and TG's lawyer's actions forced them to settle, leading to what really is a loss for TG, not for Billy Mitchell as Karl claims. Technically it's not a loss for either side since it's a settlement but anything where Billy doesn't lose is really a loss for the other side.

yea, I wonder what the full settlement details are but we will never know.

the "expert" wasn't going to help the case if it actually went to trial. aging hardware, sure, but the same exact problem many years apart of different arcade cabinets, yea nope.

I do wish in some alternate universe Billy could just come out to a live event and do the whole kill screen thing. Would be awesome to just have him kind of give a big middle finger to everyone. I'm sure he is not capabile of actually doing the task but it would be hilarious.

He is still banned from TG and his scores are not on the live databases so its kind of a win in a way.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Again a good example of "why loser pays it all" is necessary because the reason why it was settled was because Twin Galaxies did not want to invest that much money on a lawsuit that wouldn't pay itself back in the case they win.

The reverse of that is some corporation with millions of dollars worth of lawyers sues an individual and lawyers do that lawyer thing to get a guilty party to win, then that individual is on the hook for all those expensive lawyers?

yea, I wonder what the full settlement details are but we will never know.

Now this is something I'd like to see chance in law, that being that settlements are not confidential at all even in civil cases. There needs to be a record of what was exchanged if anything for the sake of any future lawsuits.

 

[Sycraft]

The reverse of that is some corporation with millions of dollars worth of lawyers sues an individual and lawyers do that lawyer thing to get a guilty party to win, then that individual is on the hook for all those expensive lawyers?

There really is no perfect answer. With a system like the US where both sides pay their own costs, well you get this kind of stuff all the time. People settle rather than going to trial, even if their case is strong. I don't know about the details of this case (not sure if the witness intimidation thing is real) but there have been others that were slam dunk cases that still settled because of costs. Jim Sterling vs James Stanton was one like that. Sterling was 100% in the right, would have mopped the floor with the asset flipper... but to what end? He'd win a case that would cost a bunch of money and you can't get blood from a stone.

On the other side with loser pays, wealthy people/companies do just what you suggest: They make sure they have high costs so even if you are almost certain you'll win, you wanna give them what they want because on the off chance you do lose, you are screwed.

 

[Tsumi]

The reverse of that is some corporation with millions of dollars worth of lawyers sues an individual and lawyers do that lawyer thing to get a guilty party to win, then that individual is on the hook for all those expensive lawyers?


Now this is something I'd like to see chance in law, that being that settlements are not confidential at all even in civil cases. There needs to be a record of what was exchanged if anything for the sake of any future lawsuits.

There really is no perfect answer. With a system like the US where both sides pay their own costs, well you get this kind of stuff all the time. People settle rather than going to trial, even if their case is strong. I don't know about the details of this case (not sure if the witness intimidation thing is real) but there have been others that were slam dunk cases that still settled because of costs. Jim Sterling vs James Stanton was one like that. Sterling was 100% in the right, would have mopped the floor with the asset flipper... but to what end? He'd win a case that would cost a bunch of money and you can't get blood from a stone.

On the other side with loser pays, wealthy people/companies do just what you suggest: They make sure they have high costs so even if you are almost certain you'll win, you wanna give them what they want because on the off chance you do lose, you are screwed.

As I said above, for this case the settlement was not due to costs but rather TG's lawyer screwing up big time.

As for a large corporation using a big lawsuit to intimidate a small person, that already happens in the current system. Actually I would argue that the current system forces the small person to be more likely to settle. In a system where the loser would be forced to compensate the winner, the small person could theoretically find a lawyer (or group of lawyers) who is willing to take on the case on the condition of winning if they feel the case is strong enough. This would incentivize lawyers to help the small people that have strong cases and disincentivize frivolous lawsuits. There are many lawyers that make a living off settlements of frivolous lawsuits because the companies decide it's more expensive to go to court.

 

[pendragon1]

https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/6194/twin-galaxies-statement/5

"Recently, on behalf of Mr. Mitchell, Dr. Michael Zyda, an individual who holds a Bachelor of Arts in Computer and Information Science from University of California, San Diego, a Master’s of Science in Computer and Information Science from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and a Doctorate of Science from the University of Washington School of Engineering, and who has been qualified as an expert by California and federal courts, concluded that the game play on the subject tapes could in fact depict play on original unmodified Donkey Kong arcade hardware if the hardware involved was malfunctioning likely due to degradation of components."

that was in 1_ricks post
faulty hardware should also disqualify it, imo....

 

[erek]

So. Arse Technica has a post out today saying that Billy and Twin Galaxies settled their lawsuit, resulting in Billy's scores being reinstated. On the flip side, Karl Jobst has a new post out today saying BIlly lost (I'm watching it now so I don't know how Karl got his title).
Edit: Karl says that rather than reinstating Billy's scores as such, they're adding an archived version of their scores from some time in the past when Billy's scores were still there. Also, apparently Billy got a so-called expert witness to claim that Billy's tapes could look like MAME instead of actual arcade rendering because Billy's hardware could be defective due to aging, or maybe copying copies of video tapes could've made that happen. Screenshot below, comparing MAME, Billy's tape, and actual hardware.

Also, a quote from Arse:




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7mE1LkkOGg


From 5:08 in the Karl video:

View attachment 627751

Impressive

 

[1_rick]

Impressive

I appreciate the amount of effort they made to ensure he has only the appearance of victory. Also, having looked at both records, the archived version is hard to read, with light grey text on a white background, and I had to highlight a bunch of text to even be able to read it. The actual records look completely different: high-contrast colors, larger font, use of color, etc.

 

[Armenius]

that was in 1_ricks post
faulty hardware should also disqualify it, imo....

If I'm not mistaken there were questions brought up about the Donkey Kong boards that Mitchell used in some of his real hardware runs. Nepotism was rampant in the game records community, and there were instances where judges allowed him to use his own boards. I'll have to look it up.