Before asking NCASE about Micro-ATX...

[sunefred]

Cooler Master is entering this space with what I suppose is a 1c design - the Mastercase 3. It doesn't look like a 30L case however. Judging from its siblings the Mastercase 5 and Mastercase 7 it is going to have a top radiator spot. It is maybee not a direct competitor to the compact 1c design, but instead enters a space that is currently only occupied by the Phanteks Evolve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G21KKPeGpRo&feature=youtu.be&t=3m10s

The case is shown around 3.10. If you find images of the interior somewhere that would be very interesting to us.

What I really think is inspiring though is the modularity of these cases. You can buy hd-cages, custom top or front grill etc. It will also allow 3rd party vendors sell their own version of these with custom colors or patterns.

 

[bhtooefr]

This angle seems to make the original design look more awkward. I'm also not a huge fan of the window personally so I mspainted the window away and I agree with you about the intake-forward design being less unique.

Spoiler

One idea to make the original intake-backward design look less awkward might be to break up the top panel by either continuing the intake around the top, or if there's not room for that, painting a black stripe along the top to join the side intakes to the top panel.

 

[busterben]

I think at that point it's a little too far from the front - it's just sort of floating out mid-panel by itself:




I threw this concept together pretty quickly, so there are a lot of things that could probably use tweaking. The entire I/O was just copy+pasted from another file as is. I pretty much just want to get some feedback to see if this seems like a direction I should pursue. We have a number of concepts on the table for a ~30L design alone, so I'd like to get an idea of which style(s) people prefer.

something stealth like this cover would suit this case pretty well

 

[faranhor]

Something like the above wouldn't be a bad idea, I'm quite fond of the current design with that side vent. Besides it would serve to hide away those ugly USB 3 connectors, unless you can finally source black ones, as they have been lacking in the M1.

 

[Necere]

I completely tunnelvisioned after seeing that first one and read over the ATX support

Necere, mind sharing more about that design internally ?

Reverse ATX because otherwise the slim ODD won't fit there. Also this way the PSU can intake from inside the case without making the case taller. As is, it's 420mm tall without the feet.

I'm also not a huge fan of the window personally so I mspainted the window away and I agree with you about the intake-forward design being less unique.

I agree this design looks better without the window.

I really like the new mATX design, the outside is just so damn clean. Maybe I overread that part, but it looks like it still has support for ATX boards, right?

I didn't mention it, but yes, that's a feature I included in the current concept.

In the renders of the mATX model the rear panel has only 5 expansion card slots, so I don't see how an ATX board would fit.

He's referring to the possibility of limited ATX support as discussed earlier in the thread.

 

[Qrash]

Inverted ATX layout with hard drives and PS at the bottom remind me of my old Lian Li V1000 case minus the 5.25 inch bays and the wheels.

 

[Vittra]

Really love that ATX design. It ticks all the boxes for me, including the slim ODD, since I still happen to purchase music and rip it to FLAC from time to time.

It's perfect for air, and if some decent short length gpus come out with Pascal/Polaris, there's the option of watercooling at that point as well.

 

[phantommaggot]

First off, I'd like to see a thread on this... Or at least more of it..
I'll never build an atx system for myself again, unless another dual socket board comes out...
But I'd be down to put my 939 system in a much smaller case.

While I'm at it, here's a 30-something liter ATX concept I did a little while back:



Those are dual 180mm fans in front.

That said, I'm in the matx world. I'd love to have something a little better than my sg10 without adding too much size
5 slots, aluminum, no ODD.

 

[themodernagenb]

I really like the 2c design you created on page 13, but I'm still not sold on exhausting PSU air at the bottom of the case.

I still think a pseudo-SG10 design is the best (subjective) choice. I've made a mock-up, just wondering what you think.

(http://imgur.com/t1d6Kf1)

I don't think 92 mm fans should be used. That's just my opinion. Also, maybe try including a bracket to replace the ATX-sized PSU with a SFX PSU one instead. That may give us enough room to add a single 3.5" HDD. Gives people a choice, but ultimately my design doesn't have room for a HDD in it's typical form. I don't think it'll be necessary in the near future. But if willing maybe we can add one with a side bracket like the M1. Just thinking out loud.




I do think if you want to stick with a traditional layout, then the one you designed on page 20 is the winner. I think you should move the I/O closer to the edge of the top panel, but other than that it's an A+. Really like the concept intakes. You're right, having the intakes farther from the front is a wise choice aesthetically. Plus (for me anyway), having a larger window doesn't look right - shows too much empty space in the front.

Also, this is just me, but I don't like how the GPU bracket sticks out like that in the back. Always gets on my nerves when I see that on cases. I know it's more work, but I would love to see it like the Define series with the motherboard sinking in a little.

 

[Carisma]

I really hope this happens. If not I guess I'll cave and get the Jeffinslaw case.

I love my Ncase M1 and if Necere & wahaha360 put the same effort in this as they did that case I'll be a happy camper

 

[majic12]

Over engineered as always but i do like the outher shell of this one.
http://www.abee.co.jp/Product/CASE/smart/ES04/images/maintop.jpg

 

[Vittra]

That's an ITX case.

 

[Allanitomwesh]

Hi necrere my opinions on the current design
1. No need for ATX Mobo support i don't find it necessary or adding any value
2. An mATX board will likely support 4 front USBs
3. I liked the I/O aligned with the side intake more.
4. Is front fans and front fans alone enough to cool 2 high end GPUs? I'd also like to see how a rad fits.
5. Seems there's space for a slim ODD but no slit for inserting the actual disk
6. If one doesn't use the HDD bay (SSDs behind mobo instead?) can you put a fan there,e.g,a Fury X cooler?
These are just my input hope it helps

 

[Necere]

Hi necrere my opinions on the current design

Just to be clear, we're talking about two completely different designs here. Some of your comments lead me to believe you may be confusing them.

First, the latest mATX concept:



Which looks like this inside:



Specs
Dimensions (HxWxD): 380 x 200 x 400mm, 30.4L
5 slots
CPU cooler up to 165mm
2x140mm front fan mounts
1x120mm rear fan mounts
2-3 3.5" HDDs
ATX PSU up to 160mm w/3.5" HDDs, or unlimited without
"Free" ATX motherboard support, as discussed previously
No optical drive support


The second concept is a short depth ATX case that I just threw out there because it's in this size range, and I thought it might be interesting to some people:





Specs
Dimensions (HxWxD): 420 x 210 x 360mm, 31.8L
7 slots
CPU cooler up to 165mm
2x180mm front fan mounts
1x120mm rear fan mounts
2-3 3.5" HDDs
ATX PSU up to 160mm w/3.5" HDDs, or unlimited without
Slim slot-load optical drive support



To address your comments:

1. No need for ATX Mobo support i don't find it necessary or adding any value

Again, on the mATX concept this can be essentially "free," since the bottom of the board would sit behind the PSU, and the case is still limited to 5 slots.

2. An mATX board will likely support 4 front USBs

I'll keep that in mind.

3. I liked the I/O aligned with the side intake more.

Probably doesn't make as much sense with either of these designs.

4. Is front fans and front fans alone enough to cool 2 high end GPUs? I'd also like to see how a rad fits.

Both of these concepts provide for a rear 120mm exhaust fan, which probably isn't going to increase the overall volume of airflow much (due to the already substantial airflow provided by the front fans), but it will help to shape the airflow and quickly remove the hot exhaust coming off the GPUs/CPU. I'm not sure what else you had in mind - top fans? Side fans?

The mATX concept has enough room in front for a 280mm rad with reference length GPUs, while the short-depth ATX concept is more geared towards air cooling only, or watercooling with shorter cards. Either could also take a 120mm rad on the rear mount.

5. Seems there's space for a slim ODD but no slit for inserting the actual disk

On the ATX concept, the slot for the disc is directly below the front I/O. The mATX concept does not support an ODD.

6. If one doesn't use the HDD bay (SSDs behind mobo instead?) can you put a fan there,e.g,a Fury X cooler?

Sure.

 

[themodernagenb]

Would you consider a short-depth approach to the m-ATX design? That would suit my taste more, but that's just me? Or would that affect the looks of the intake (too close to the front)? But then again, I would just have the window the size of the m-ATX mobo, so intake could be "pushed" back if you went for a short-depth approach.

 

[Necere]

Would you consider a short-depth approach to the m-ATX design? That would suit my taste more, but that's just me? Or would that affect the looks of the intake (too close to the front)? But then again, I would just have the window the size of the m-ATX mobo, so intake could be "pushed" back if you went for a short-depth approach.

Well, a short-depth case would necessitate doing away with a shrouded front intake altogether, and going with a fully-perforated front like the ATX concept. That's what accounts for most of the depth difference between the two. But yeah, I'd consider it.

 

[sunefred]

Well, a short-depth case would necessitate doing away with a shrouded front intake altogether, and going with a fully-perforated front like the ATX concept. That's what accounts for most of the depth difference between the two. But yeah, I'd consider it.

Necere, maybee this has been mentioned already, but what is the reason that you are scrapping cable management features behind MB? I think that is a deal breaker for many even if the gain might be a liter or two.

 

[Allanitomwesh]

To address your comments:
Again, on the mATX concept this can be essentially "free," since the bottom of the board would sit behind the PSU, and the case is still limited to 5 slots.

I'll keep that in mind.

Probably doesn't make as much sense with either of these designs.

Both of these concepts provide for a rear 120mm exhaust fan, which probably isn't going to increase the overall volume of airflow much (due to the already substantial airflow provided by the front fans), but it will help to shape the airflow and quickly remove the hot exhaust coming off the GPUs/CPU. I'm not sure what else you had in mind - top fans? Side fans?

The mATX concept has enough room in front for a 280mm rad with reference length GPUs, while the short-depth ATX concept is more geared towards air cooling only, or watercooling with shorter cards. Either could also take a 120mm rad on the rear mount.

On the ATX concept, the slot for the disc is directly below the front I/O. The mATX concept does not support an ODD.

Sure.

I was thinking a bottom fan would maintain the clean look such that,you could have a 120mm rad at the bottom and another at the rear and finally the 280mm at the front (and the PSU I assume is in taking from bottom and exhausting on rear effectively a closed circuit not affecting the GPUs) This would mean the drive cage is removable though am I right? Anyway that makes for plenty of cooling and also good noise dampening.
Will the rear fan be filtered?Every manufacturer ever seems to forget that fan filter.
And then I guess there's the I/O,whether its attached to the detachable front fascia,that creates the problem of yanking off the front panel and having the I/O cables cling on, such that you have to unplug them from the motherboard every time you open the front. I'd think not,but just something to note.
Windows are overated,foam pad the side and top panels
You could also I guess have a similar cover to the front on the top and in that way support top 280mm rad quietly. Not sure what that would do to the volume though,probably nothing good.
Just my ideas I appreciate your responding to them.

 

[Necere]

Necere, maybee this has been mentioned already, but what is the reason that you are scrapping cable management features behind MB? I think that is a deal breaker for many even if the gain might be a liter or two.

I don't think I've ever said I was completely against behind the motherboard cable management. The issue is that it increases width, which is my least favorite dimensions to add to. What I've been leaning towards is a more modest 10-12mm behind the motherboard for thinner cables and possibly SSDs, with the bulkier cables run ahead of the motherboard and next to the PSU, where there's some natural space that can be utilized.

I was thinking a bottom fan would maintain the clean look such that,you could have a 120mm rad at the bottom and another at the rear and finally the 280mm at the front (and the PSU I assume is in taking from bottom and exhausting on rear effectively a closed circuit not affecting the GPUs)

So I did initially misinterpret your original question: I thought you meant a rad on the lower front fan, occupying some of the space the HDDs are at, but I understand now that you mean a fan/rad on the bottom facing up. I've thought about it, but I personally prefer keeping the the bottom of the case solid, with the only intake vents up front. This simplifies maintenance, since you only need one big dust filter that's easily accessible from the front. Bottom filters, especially easily removable ones, are harder to access, as well as being harder to implement design-wise, and are going to suck up more dust and have worse airflow. Moreover, bottom vents would require additional ground clearance for adequate airflow. The current designs incorporate a gap between the case floor and the PSU, so it's a wash in terms of overall volume, and I'd just as soon have a bit more usable space inside the case.

This would mean the drive cage is removable though am I right?

Of course. I can't think of a good reason to ever make a non-removable drive cage.

Will the rear fan be filtered?Every manufacturer ever seems to forget that fan filter.

Is the concern here dust entering through the rear vents when the PC is off? Because obviously when the fans are running, dust will get blown out the back, so it doesn't make much sense to filter it - it would just needlessly restrict airflow. Keep in mind there won't just be vents for the rear fan, but for other parts of the back panel as well (next to the PCIe slots, back of motherboard, etc). It would be awkward to filter everything.

And then I guess there's the I/O,whether its attached to the detachable front fascia,that creates the problem of yanking off the front panel and having the I/O cables cling on, such that you have to unplug them from the motherboard every time you open the front.

Well, the latest mATX concept has the front I/O on the top panel, which isn't part of the front so it's not an issue.

Windows are overated,foam pad the side and top panels

Nevertheless, a lot of people ask for them. Obviously we'd make a windowed side panel an option, rather than standard.

 

[Allanitomwesh]

Ah okay,my thought process was,you're already meshing the bottom for a long PSU,might as well support a 120mm fan next to it.
Yes dust always finds it way in through the rear,but you do have a point about it being open elsewhere,sigh
Dusty dry country here,its a struggle.
What is the plan for cable management?

 

[Necere]

What is the plan for cable management?

I did touch on that in my last post. Nothing is set in stone, though, and I'm open to people's preferences. ATX PSUs tend to have more and longer cables than SFX, which is another consideration not often taken into account when considering the volume differences of the two form factors, so some extra care does need to be taken for cable management here.

 

[Allanitomwesh]

I'd say route through the back on this particular layout,all it has to be is thick enough for the 24pin (2mm extra?not sure haven't measured) all the other PSU cables are smaller.
Niceties would be rubberised routing holes and Velcro/Zip ties back there.Or at least rolled routing holes so they don't cut the cables with sharp edges.

 

[Danzle]

I would love to see a NCase FT03! Mad a professional illustration what i personally would buy.

 

[Qrash]

Yep, me too!

 

[pwrusr]

Subscribed

 

[Carisma]

Have you thought about selling the CAD designs for the cases that aren't being produced to allow people to get the case manufacturer themselves?

 

[Necere]

I would love to see a NCase FT03! Mad a professional illustration what i personally would buy.

Spoiler:

Looks like I forgot to respond to this earlier. It's not a bad idea for a layout, actually. I hadn't really considered orienting the PSU like that, which would make it taller than the FT03, but not by a huge amount. There's still Silverstone's patent though, that potentially complicates pursuing such a design.

Have you thought about selling the CAD designs for the cases that aren't being produced to allow people to get the case manufacturer themselves?

Each of these concept designs represents maybe 5% of the total work that goes into a complete case design. A lot of elements depend on what you have available, as well - stuff like the Lian Li toolless clips, their NCT punch library, power button and custom front I/O - all of these would need to be changed in one way or another to make a design feasible for a general shop to make (a company like Protocase, for example). Even then, you'd probably be looking at well over $1000 for manufacturing a one-off, which excludes it from consideration for the vast majority of people. It frankly wouldn't make a lot of sense for me/us (w360 still does the porting to Solidworks) to spend potentially hundreds of hours on a design that is 1.) likely inferior to what we could do with specialized components and tooling, and 2.) hardly anyone would actually be interested in buying anyway.

 

[CrimsonFury]

Looks like I forgot to respond to this earlier. It's not a bad idea for a layout, actually. I hadn't really considered orienting the PSU like that, which would make it taller than the FT03, but not by a huge amount. There's still Silverstone's patent though, that potentially complicates pursuing such a design.

The height increase would be somewhat offset by removing the need to have feet underneath the case, because of the different intake placement. Total height should only increase 40mm or so. The intake change would work better for those who place it on the floor (less dust and carpet hair picked up) and also allow use of a 140mm intake without the need for angled fan mounts (allowing 2x long graphics cards)

 

[iFreilicht]

Each of these concept designs represents maybe 5% of the total work that goes into a complete case design. A lot of elements depend on what you have available, as well - stuff like the Lian Li toolless clips, their NCT punch library, power button and custom front I/O - all of these would need to be changed in one way or another to make a design feasible for a general shop to make (a company like Protocase, for example).

What is an NCT punch library? Is that a library of all the shapes a manufacturers punch presses can do?

 

[Aibohphobia]

What is an NCT punch library? Is that a library of all the shapes a manufacturers punch presses can do?

Yes

 

[iFreilicht]

Yes

Thanks

 

[Pat-Roner]

Yes, dual 140mm. The 180s only work on the ATX concept because of the extra height. It's also short-depth (~355mm) to keep the volume down, but that would limit front rad+long GPU builds. The mATX concept by comparison is 400mm deep, partly due to the baffled front intake.


More renders of the mATX in silver:

I really like this! This is more Ncase than many of the other designs, and it really stands out compared to any case out there now.

Regards to bottom intake, I think there should be a alternative to mount the psu with fanside down, OR find a way to mount it in the front, like the Cerberus case from Kimera ind.
I really like that layout in regards to how compact it makes the case.

Personally I would not mind to add 10mm or so of space behind the mobo, since it lots of powercables these days are flat, and it makes it possible to add sound dampening.

Just my two scents.

 

[Necere]

I really like this! This is more Ncase than many of the other designs, and it really stands out compared to any case out there now.

Regards to bottom intake, I think there should be a alternative to mount the psu with fanside down, OR find a way to mount it in the front, like the Cerberus case from Kimera ind.
I really like that layout in regards to how compact it makes the case.

The PSU does mount fan-down in this design. As I mentioned a couple posts up, there's a gap between the PSU and the floor of the case to allow for air intake from inside the case. This simplifies ventilation and filtering, since the only intake is at the front.

Mounting the PSU at the front completely changes the airflow - you basically need top/bottom vents - and doesn't actually save that much space with an ATX PSU. See the "space saver - front PSU" section in my design post. It makes more sense with SFX, like the KI Cerberus, but not so much with an ATX PSU.

 

[ChrisW]

Looks like I forgot to respond to this earlier. It's not a bad idea for a layout, actually. I hadn't really considered orienting the PSU like that, which would make it taller than the FT03, but not by a huge amount. There's still Silverstone's patent though, that potentially complicates pursuing such a design.

I'd also love to see a FT03 type chassi optimized! Regarding patent, here's a post from a SilverStone Tech Representative i found on this very forum:

I'll chip in here... We have patent for 90 degree rotated layout in Taiwan and China only. The US patent (5243493) for this design was actually filed all the way back in 1992 by the "Industrial Technology Research Institute in Taiwan" so it has already expired.

This means you are free to make any case with the 90 degree rotated motherboard design on your own and would only need to consult with us if you plan on mass producing cases with this design in Taiwan or China.

 

[Necere]

Yeah, I've seen that post. And I mean, we are "mass producing" cases in Taiwan with Lian Li, so it's likely we'd need to "consult" with Silverstone if we went that direction.

I'm not totally sold on the idea of a vertical case, anyway. The cable cover and clearance for bottom air intake makes for a tall case that 1.) sacrifices overall volume for footprint, 2.) will almost inevitably resemble a trash can.

 

[Pat-Roner]

The PSU does mount fan-down in this design. As I mentioned a couple posts up, there's a gap between the PSU and the floor of the case to allow for air intake from inside the case. This simplifies ventilation and filtering, since the only intake is at the front.

Mounting the PSU at the front completely changes the airflow - you basically need top/bottom vents - and doesn't actually save that much space with an ATX PSU. See the "space saver - front PSU" section in my design post. It makes more sense with SFX, like the KI Cerberus, but not so much with an ATX PSU.

Thanks for your reply! I (and i believe many others) truly appreciate all the replys and communication you are offering on this project.

Have you started to settle on a design?

 

[broddy]

Hmm, im matx user too. I like the latest design, it's discrete and clean. How's the intake slot thou? I hope it doesnt reduce the overall airflow. I like the front design of the 31.8L atx case. Please make a removable fan filter. The only couple things I dont want is reversed motherboard and handles.
Silverstone already got the tj08e which is really good and much cheaper. I just cant get over the reversed motherboard since it looks just off especially with window. I also put stuff on top on my case sometimes and handles take away the space and look just ugly.

I like M1..but im not an itx user since I use sound card

 

[amagus]

Love the mATX design, but really love the ATX one. I'd get the mATX one if it were the only one offered (since you get ATX support too), but if both are offered I'd get the ATX just because it seems marginally bigger and you don't lose any slots. For me ATX is still desirable as it's the only way to get 8 DIMM slots for Socket 2011 boards.

 

[Necere]

Have you started to settle on a design?

At this point I am leaning towards the latest mATX concept, as shown above.

Hmm, im matx user too. I like the latest design, it's discrete and clean. How's the intake slot thou? I hope it doesnt reduce the overall airflow.

Well, any kind of vent/grille/what have you will reduce airflow by some amount, and in general, baffled or side intakes like in this design will reduce it somewhat more than open front vents. There is a full 25mm between the fans and the front cover though, and 20mm for the slots at either side, so the restriction shouldn't be too great.

The baffled/side intakes are nice for the cleaner front, and it hides the dust filter (and any dust build up) that would otherwise be visible with open front vents. There's also some potential for noise reduction.

I like the front design of the 31.8L atx case. Please make a removable fan filter.

Filters are pretty much mandatory on intakes, IMO, and will be part of whichever design I go with.

The only couple things I dont want is reversed motherboard and handles.
Silverstone already got the tj08e which is really good and much cheaper. I just cant get over the reversed motherboard since it looks just off especially with window.

There are reasons for the reversed layout - it's not for no reason. In this case, I wanted a bottom-mounted PSU that intakes from the inside. Why bottom-mounted? Even with active fans, there's going to be a temperature gradient inside the case, with warmer air at the top. This way the PSU has access to cooler air. Also, with the fan facing up, PSUs with a fanless mode should in theory keep the fan off longer, since heat is able to escape via natural convection through the top. Having the rear 120mm exhaust fan just above the PSU works well with this arrangement. If we flipped the motherboard right side up and left the PSU at the bottom, it's going to be exposed to more of the hot exhaust from the GPUs, so we'd also likely want to put the PSU at the top, which is a less than ideal place for it.

The slim optical drive is another reason for the reversed layout, since with the PSU on the bottom/standard motherboard orientation it simply won't work, as it'll run into the motherboard. So we'd have to have the PSU at the top to have enough room for the slim optical drive, but there again it's less ideal for the PSU. Also, it would take up the space for the 3.5" HDDs.

 

[broddy]

Thanks for addressing my concerns, Necere. I'll be waiting for the finalized version