ATi = most stable drivers

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

Neither company has a perfect product, hard or software, and anyone that would make comments like this is nothing but a child that can't admit that he doesn't have the best toys around because he blindly buys on baseless brand loyalty.

Actually my FX3400 is the best toy out there other than the 4400 with 512MB of ram on it. Actually the closest to reference renderings were Nvidia in a lot of tests, so its not baseless fandom. My 9800 couldn't use AA or AF very well at 1280x1024 and another reason to realize ATI sucks is that they released products like the 9600se. Its a worthless card for ANYONE. Integrated graphics perform better than that. As for the top end, sure its fastest in FPS but I really don't care about FPS because I have a Quadro. I care about image quality and the Quadro spanks the x850 for that too. Sure they're not perfect but they're sure a lot more effecient per clock cycle than ATI's products at ANY level.

 

[Un4given]

Okay, just dredged up your first post...you are with ATI...why are you acting like this? Nothing your marketing department can publish is going to convert anyone from nVidia if you turn around and present it this way.

Why is he acting like what? What exactly has he said that you deem so inappropriate?

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

No, but Dell does come with Intel CPU's.

Yeah I love my dual 3.0 2mb cache 64bit Xeons. What about them?

Wow, didnt expect this thread to get so nasty.

Seems like 2-3 very vocal people dont like the report much. Sorry you dont like the end result.

The paid for by ATI report means little actually. The fact that people believe such a generic statement from them is just hilarious.

IMO, given what nVidia is doing with SLI, and the supposed retail release of G70s in stores two weeks away, the fact Crossfire and R520 are MIA, and the fact that their current single card solution has a 2003 feature set, the offices at ATI must be pretty somber places right now.

Probably a lot of guys walking around muttering, "Remember the 9700Pro?! We were the top of the food chain for a while there......"

AMEN!

 

[Un4given]

Actually my FX3400 is the best toy out there other than the 4400 with 512MB of ram on it. Actually the closest to reference renderings were Nvidia in a lot of tests, so its not baseless fandom. My 9800 couldn't use AA or AF very well at 1280x1024 and another reason to realize ATI sucks is that they released products like the 9600se. Its a worthless card for ANYONE. Integrated graphics perform better than that. As for the top end, sure its fastest in FPS but I really don't care about FPS because I have a Quadro. I care about image quality and the Quadro spanks the x850 for that too. Sure they're not perfect but they're sure a lot more effecient per clock cycle than ATI's products at ANY level.

Sure, whatever you say man. I didn't have any trouble running AA/AF at 12080x1024 with my 9800, which I certainly know given the same CPU, RAM, and program in question, would spank that 4200 and 5700.

Again, while closer than older gen NV cards, I've never owned an NV card that had as good or better image quality that ATi; Matrox is even better than both. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that, by all means, go right on ahead and continue to think that all you want.

 

[ashmedai]

Why is he acting like what? What exactly has he said that you deem so inappropriate?

Just a little quote & paraphrase, tell me if I'm reading too much in to anything. But this is the way it's sounding to me, and why I'm losing any respect I had for ATI.

"Seems like 2-3 very vocal people dont like the report much. Sorry you dont like the end result."

Sorry, but we don't care what you think.

"Sorry my dekstop has never hung on 2D, and I dont see reports of it in my customer support reports. must be something bad you did to your system."

Can't be anything wrong with our product, so you must be incompetant.

"Hey I would love to discuss this...However you must remember you do not represent the viewpoints of everyone else that reads it...Oh I have no doubt that people less cynical of the world than yourself will believe it"

Please give me your opinion...oh wait your opinion doesn't matter to me...you won't believe anything anyway but other people will believe anything we publish.

 

[pxc]

Sorry my dekstop has never hung on 2D, and I dont see reports of it in my customer support reports.

must be something bad you did to your system.

Yep, it "must be something bad" i did to my system: installing a x800 XL and Catalyst 5.5. After going back to the 6600GT and 71.89 no more desktop crashes.

It's not new, either. I've had similar problems with earlier Catalyst drivers on different systems. Maybe we use our systems differently.

 

[Un4given]

Just a little quote & paraphrase, tell me if I'm reading too much in to anything. But this is the way it's sounding to me, and why I'm losing any respect I had for ATI.

"Seems like 2-3 very vocal people dont like the report much. Sorry you dont like the end result."

Sorry, but we don't care what you think.

"Sorry my dekstop has never hung on 2D, and I dont see reports of it in my customer support reports. must be something bad you did to your system."

Can't be anything wrong with our product, so you must be incompetant.

"Hey I would love to discuss this...However you must remember you do not represent the viewpoints of everyone else that reads it...Oh I have no doubt that people less cynical of the world than yourself will believe it"

Please give me your opinion...oh wait your opinion doesn't matter to me...you won't believe anything anyway but other people will believe anything we publish.

In regards to the first comment.

Given the extreme NV type of Emtpy, Rollo, and BossNoodle, that is a simple statement of fact. He simply stated that it is what it is, sorry the outcome is what you would like to hear.

In regards to comment two.

This is nothing more than a comment that it hasn't been reported as a wide spread bug that can be reproduced, so the problem is system/user specific. The part about doing something bad to his system could have been worded better, but wasn't overly harsh by any means when you look at the way most VC disucussion go on around the [H] forums.

In regards to comment three.

These are partial comments taken from multiple posts, and worded the way you assembled do not in any way reflect what he actually said. The part where he said he would like to discuss it also noted, as long as people can keep their cool (i.e. no flaming). After that he went to explain why they had the report done. There is not one single thing wrong that post.

The comment about not representing everyone else. It's true. You have a viewpoint about it, and that's fine, but you don't speak for everyone that reads the articles and results of the test, or their overall meaning/impact. Also, you are being cynical. They tried to get upstanding hardware web sites to run the tests, but no one is interested. Did they pay AppLabs, well of course they did. AppLabs is a business, and businesses make money offering their products or services, so no they weren't going to do it for free. There are expenses involved for them to run these tests, but paying for those services in no way means they were "paid off" for their end result. However, you and many others have assumed that because AppLabs was paid the expenses of this service that it automatically means payoff. That is cynical.

Believe me, if it turns out that additional money, beyond the fees requires for their services changed hands, I will be the first in line to lambast ATi for such tactics.

 

[ZenOps]

Going from an X800XL to a 6600 will probably be more stable if you have any marginal components in your system.

That said: going from a 6800 to a 9700pro will probably be more stable if you have any marginal components in your system.

Nothing to do with drivers really... Mostly has to do with less pipes, simpler design, less power is more stable in general. The most stable hardware chipset verfied many times over is the Rage IIC (which many servers still use because of its ultrareliablity and low power) I hear even satellites to this day use special variants of the RageIIC and the 486 from Intel.

 

[mohammedtaha]

I have not had 1 problem with any of the drivers thus far.

You think that your computer having problems using X800XL must be widespread? I don't think so.

Many things to look into. Did you use driver cleaner ? Is there something wrong with your motherboard ? When was the last time you installed windows? How's your PSU ? ... There are many things that need to be answered and although you may say that your computer without the ATi is better off and it's a fresh new installation could be a lie .. so you really have no basis either.

I've had both nVidia and ATi cards and this is by far my 1st and I find that there are somethings I like changed/added or fixed BUT this does not mean that the driver is UNSTABLE.

Stability has NOTHING to do with better features or monthly releases.

 

[ashmedai]

You would rather I believe anything I'm told without questioning it?

And it's what he said, I just snipped the significant portions to answer your question. Don't start on that "you took it out of context" crap, not when the thread is right in front of you. That's how it sounded to me, and I can't possibly be wrong about how it sounded to me, BECAUSE I AM ME. If you don't like it, too bad, you're you and not me and there's nothing you can do about it.

After the results are published, if it is actually independantly reproduced rather than by a party under contract to ATI, it might mean something to me. If the guy hadn't already given me an opinion of ATI's "customer care" that's likely to stick with me for years.

 

[Un4given]

You would rather I believe anything I'm told without questioning it?

And it's what he said, I just snipped the significant portions to answer your question. Don't start on that "you took it out of context" crap, not when the thread is right in front of you. That's how it sounded to me, and I can't possibly be wrong about how it sounded to me, BECAUSE I AM ME. If you don't like it, too bad, you're you and not me and there's nothing you can do about it.

After the results are published, if it is actually independantly reproduced rather than by a party under contract to ATI, it might mean something to me. If the guy hadn't already given me an opinion of ATI's "customer care" that's likely to stick with me for years.

No, I don't expect you to just take it as gospel, as I don't either. However, I don't also assume the worst, as you are still doing the same thing, just in the opposite direction.

Maybe you did read it differently than I did, but I guess that's just how I am after doing tech support stuff for the last 12 years, and quite a bit of electronically.

 

[mohammedtaha]

Hey, you rub someone the wrong way, you better expect something back. Unless he's a wimp or pacifist.

Do you think someone is going to test software for free ? Ofcourse it's paid !!

We have no idea who ATi asked .. Was Kyle asked ?

Maybe now that the test has been done we can get Hardocp to run a set of their own independent test and see if it validates the claim.

 

[ashmedai]

I'm not assuming the worst either, I'm just not accepting it as valid until I get verification from other testers. Right now the source is not one that's established as reliable, so it's about the same as someone with a n00bie sticker and a two day old join date posts saying PCChips's new motherboard kicks DFI, MSI, Asus, etc etc around the block hands down. My reaction is "um....okay" until something more reliable substantiates it.

Well okay actually in that case my reaction is more like "um...what are you smoking??" but you get the idea hopefully. I'm not saying it's necessarily false, I'm saying "paid independant review" has a reputation for being an oxymoron, and that it carrys no weight with me until I see a more reliable source back it up.

Hell, I don't even trust everything [H] publishes to be completely impartial and accurate. But having Kyle sign off on a review is going to make me take it much more seriously than "paid independant review" by some company I've never heard of.

 

[Un4given]

I'm not assuming the worst either, I'm just not accepting it as valid until I get verification from other testers. Right now the source is not one that's established as reliable, so it's about the same as someone with a n00bie sticker and a two day old join date posts saying PCChips's new motherboard kicks DFI, MSI, Asus, etc etc around the block hands down. My reaction is "um....okay" until something more reliable substantiates it.

Well okay actually in that case my reaction is more like "um...what are you smoking??" but you get the idea hopefully. I'm not saying it's necessarily false, I'm saying "paid independant review" has a reputation for being an oxymoron, and that it carrys no weight with me until I see a more reliable source back it up.

Hell, I don't even trust everything [H] publishes to be completely impartial and accurate. But having Kyle sign off on a review is going to make me take it much more seriously than "paid independant review" by some company I've never heard of.

Skeptesism isn't a bad thing. Looking at corporate culture over the last decade or so (not just the computer business) there is much to be skeptical about.

 

[pxc]

Many things to look into. Did you use driver cleaner ? Is there something wrong with your motherboard ? When was the last time you installed windows? How's your PSU ? ... There are many things that need to be answered and although you may say that your computer without the ATi is better off and it's a fresh new installation could be a lie .. so you really have no basis either.

I've had both nVidia and ATi cards and this is by far my 1st and I find that there are somethings I like changed/added or fixed BUT this does not mean that the driver is UNSTABLE.

Maybe you didn't understand my original post on the subject. In heavy 2D work, my x800XL crashes. The exact same system doesn't crash under the same conditions with a 6600GT. It's not specific to Cat 5.5 or the x800XL. I've also had it happen with older driver versions on older ATI cards on completely different systems. I possibly have a much different pattern of usage than CM or even you.

If you really want to know what I did : restore point, uninstall 71.89, driver cleaner 3, installed x800XL, installed catalyst 5.5, used it for a couple of hours, it locked up on the desktop while scrolling in an explorer window. Repeat. Windows installation is about 6 weeks old on this new system (P4 551 CPU/915 chipset), PSU is fine, nothing was overclocked, etc. It was easy to reproduce within a couple hours of use. Even with the 6600GT overclocked, I have zero stability issues. I'm not going to reinstall Windows just to upgrade a video card. That's retarded.

While I don't appreciate you accusing me of lying ("although you may say that your computer without the ATi is better off ... could be a lie"), you need to understand that different usage could expose different instabilities. Unfortunately, my usage seems to cause stability problems with more than one ATI card and more than one driver version. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

 

[HighTest]

Somebody close this thread. There's as much circular logic in it as a filibuster in Congress.

Either side could present it that their's is the most stable. Until there's truely an independant study (which is probably not likely due to the fanclub in each vendors customer set) this is a pointless debate.

For the record my system is rock solid and hasn't crashed since day one (except when locking in the extreme overclocking settings I wanted to run at). Check my sig if you truely care what I've got.

 

[jebo_4jc]

you need to understand that different usage could expose different instabilities. Unfortunately, my usage seems to cause stability problems with more than one ATI card and more than one driver version. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

I'm not disputing what you say, but the thing is, you have to realize how it sounds to somebody like me (enthusiast since VooDoo days who has owned several 3d cards from both ati & nvidia and has never had a problem with either one) when you say "ATi must suck because my computer barfs all the time with ATi and never with nVidia." You show me a 100% stable pc w/modern hardware and I'll buy it on the spot. The fact is, it doesn't exist. We can do the best we can, but sometimes stability and performance are, to a small extent, mutually exclusive due to heat, chip complexity, etc. Again, I'm an avid enthusiast who does many things with multiple computers, and I have not experienced stability problems with ATi. How am I supposed to react when you say ATi=instability.

Also, as for the "ATi paid for this test so it must be 100% false" argument, we'll let the published results decide. A good point was made when Catalyst asked what a better method for publishing these results would be. Either ATi publishes them personally, pays for a study, or a hardware reviewer does the tests. He claims that ATi pursued HW sites to do the tests, but they didn't want to. Obviously we don't know the tetails behind all that, but I have as much reason to believe what he says as I do the nVidia conspiracy theorists.

What it boils down to is this: I run 3 ati cards at present, and don't have problems with them. YMMV.

 

[BullseyeBob]

I just put in the new Cat 5.6's last night. Got some minor fps boosts for free. Stability is 100%. Played SoF2, CoD, and Painkiller (wow fps in this game) for hours.

That's why I like ATI's drivers. So easy to change out. Regular monthly releases. Stability and functionality (CCC) are great. And each time I upgrade it feels like the CCC panel runs smoother with less (not that there's a lot of) bugs.

To you Nvidiots posting in here with your drivel about ATI's drivers.....I fart on thee.

 

[ashmedai]

To you Nvidiots posting in here with your drivel about ATI's drivers.....I fart on thee.

See, if you hadn't put that part in, the rest of what you said might have meant something to someone. But then you had to go and be an ass about it, which makes everything you said sound like a bunch of unreliable heavily biased bullshit.

If you like something, say so, and give reasons why. Just don't be an ass about it, or people will assume you're full of shit.

 

[Blown 89]

I recently made the switch to Nvdia because I was tired of ATI's driver issues and horrible hardware. I sent an ATI TV Wonder elite back to Newegg last week because their own programs weren't compatable with their own card. As a long time ATI supporter it's a shame to see how they've recently gone downhill.

 

[jebo_4jc]

See, if you hadn't put that part in, the rest of what you said might have meant something to someone. But then you had to go and be an ass about it, which makes everything you said sound like a bunch of unreliable heavily biased bullshit.

If you like something, say so, and give reasons why. Just don't be an ass about it, or people will assume you're full of shit.

Not that I disagree with you ash. And not that I didn't chuckle seing the words "fart" and "thee" in the same sentence. But I do agree with what he said about ATi's drivers.....

 

[BullseyeBob]

See, if you hadn't put that part in, the rest of what you said might have meant something to someone. But then you had to go and be an ass about it, which makes everything you said sound like a bunch of unreliable heavily biased bullshit.

I fart on you too then.

Look man, saying something like that instead of "omfg get the fook out of an ati topic u nvidiot fanb0y ash-holes omg omg fx5800!! stock trading down!! driver cheats!!"

I mean come on.

 

[ashmedai]

Not that I disagree with you ash. And not that I didn't chuckle seing the words "fart" and "thee" in the same sentence. But I do agree with what he said about ATi's drivers.....

Points for the Monty Python reference, minus for use of "nvidiots", perfectly good post until he started insulting people for choosing an nVidia product. Which was basically the point I was trying to make. The first part is perfectly helpful, but who's going to listen to it after the last part? If he wants to convince people ATI's products are better, that's not going to do it.

Personally I don't give a crap over all the fan boy nonsense with this camp flaming that one, it leads to a whole bunch of stupid insults and unintelligent circular logic, when all I give a damn about is who's going to give me the best part for the least money.

What ATI really needs is a BFG. People buy from them, they know they're going to get great support and a reliable product. In the end that matters a lot more to people than whose card is 2% faster or whose drivers are a smidge less likely to crash in some paid study. Newegg gets craploads of repeat business because they bend over backwards to make sure they have excellent customer service. It's not that they're the cheapest or that they have ads all over [H] land. It's the service. ATI has never left me with a good impression of their customer service. They try to be faster, and after the reputation for total suckage that their drivers used to have, they've tried hard to make their products more reliable. Whether who's is a smidge ahead, I don't think I really care, but ATI's done a bang up job of getting one of their greatest weaknesses fixed.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

took them long enough...

 

[BullseyeBob]

Points for the Monty Python reference, minus for use of "nvidiots", perfectly good post until he started insulting people for choosing an nVidia product. Which was basically the point I was trying to make. The first part is perfectly helpful, but who's going to listen to it after the last part? If he wants to convince people ATI's products are better, that's not going to do it.

Personally I don't give a crap over all the fan boy nonsense with this camp flaming that one, it leads to a whole bunch of stupid insults and unintelligent circular logic, when all I give a damn about is who's going to give me the best part for the least money.

Your points are taken. I dont agree 100% but hey, it's a free internet.

My point is that I really refrained from making a harsh comment towards some of the more fanb0yish posters the best I could. Sometimes I would love to just type out my exact thoughts to some Nvidia users. And since I've owned Nvidia products be4 (Ti200 & Ti4600) I think it gives me the background to respond to some of these people. So if saying I 'fart' on someone was to out of line for you I'm sorry. I though it was a good way of saying I don't agree with you without getting myself banned.

 

[jebo_4jc]

What ATI really needs is a BFG. People buy from them, they know they're going to get great support and a reliable product. In the end that matters a lot more to people than whose card is 2% faster or whose drivers are a smidge less likely to crash in some paid study.

Hmmm.....QFT! I wonder what percentage of 6800 cards are bfg.

It seemed like, for the x8xx, Sapphire, VisionTek, etc, all just regurgitated the reference designs, in general......If one of them started offering lifetime warranties and out of the box OC, great service, etc, that would be huge.

 

[ashmedai]

Just to substantiate my prior statement that the "paid independent" testing defaults to being untrustworthy, I saw this on the front page of Slashdot (which yes, I still check on occasion).

According to a large-scale survey of scientific misbehavior, 15% admit to changing a study under pressure from a funding source. Other reasons for altering data include dropping data from a study based on a gut feeling and failing to include data that contradicts one's own research.

Nothing against ATI, or their products, or their test results. It's just that published results aren't automatically trusted, especially when they favor the party that paid for the study.

Sorry to dredge it up again, I was just amused by the timing.

 

[HighTest]

To you Nvidiots posting in here with your drivel about ATI's drivers.....I fart on thee.

Kaaaboooooooommmmmmmmm. That's the sound after using a flame, I had ignited your flatulance. Let us know how your Cat 5.6 performs while you are flying about in orbit.

 

[BullseyeBob]

They werk great ty. Orbit is nice. Little cold, internet sux. Capt. Kirk says hi.

 

[FanATIc]

Hmmm.....QFT! I wonder what percentage of 6800 cards are bfg.

It seemed like, for the x8xx, Sapphire, VisionTek, etc, all just regurgitated the reference designs, in general......If one of them started offering lifetime warranties and out of the box OC, great service, etc, that would be huge.

Is this sarcasm???

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

To the people nose-picking over a few more FPS in games by getting last generation hardware pushed to the max(ATI buyers): Don't you care that your x800 doesn't even support the latest DX??? People complain how unstable their graphics drivers are. Look into Quadros, see if you hear complaints about their drivers.

 

[neubspeed]

This is how I see it:

I went from a GeForce 6800 Ultra OC (yeah BFG ) to a BBA Radeon X850 XT Platinum, purely because of the difference in heat output and power requirements, my computer has been much healthier because of it. Nvidia doesn't cater to the OEM market so they don't need to worry about dipshits buying their product and not knowing what anti-aliasing is or the consequences of overclocking. ATI who's primary revenue stream is OEM products needs to make n00b friendly drivers that makes retards feel special. This is the purpose of the Catalyst Control Center, (like Overdrive, WTF is that, call it overclocking you tools). When you add all kinds of bloat for the end user, it leads to a waste of system resources and less time in optimizing the driver, and more time making it prettier. Think windows and linux on this one.

Nvidia has always and will continue to be the market leader in innovation and the adopter of new technologies from HDR, SM 3.0, video rendering, all that shit that I don't know anything about etc lol. Even the God forsaken FX5800 had additional features that the 9700 series was lacking. When Nvidia comes up with these innovations, ATi follows and makes them more efficient and more appliable. The FX came out before the 9700s, the 6800s came before the X series, SLI before Crossfire (another raped commercialized name for morons), and the G70 will come out before the R520. Is that bad for consumers or ATI? No, it just means that ATI is innovating while Nvidia is inventing, and both come out with great products. I've had much greater stability with Forceware than Catalysts, 5.4 WDM wasn't even compatible with my card! And as for the PLBKAC thing, if someone with an MCSE can't install a damn video card, then ATI should really create a more user friendly install . ATI will continue to play catch up with hardware and drivers; however, this gives them room to improve on existing technologies, there's room for both companies, at some point I believe that Catalysts will surpass the current level of flawless stability of Forcewares, but by that time, Nvidia will have set a new standard.

Also, I invested in ATI shares a few years ago, and after hearing the way Ky Ho screwed us with lack of profit warnings, I don't think I could ever buy another video card from them again. Then again, who cares, may the best company win.

 

[SPARTAN VI]

Absolutely not in my experience. I've had nothing but trouble with about half of the catalyst drivers. Especially the transition from 5.0 -> 5.1 -> 5.2, with my 9800Pro. Now that I slid the 9800Pro and got a 6600GT (yeah, barely a step up, but it's practically for free) I've had no problems at all with these drivers.

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

"ATI who's primary revenue stream is OEM products needs to make n00b friendly drivers that makes retards feel special. This is the purpose of the Catalyst Control Center, (like Overdrive, WTF is that, call it overclocking you tools). When you add all kinds of bloat for the end user, it leads to a waste of system resources and less time in optimizing the driver, and more time making it prettier. Think windows and linux on this one."

I'll second that! You do know a 9800 pro uses more power at idle than a 6800U right?

 

[Skrying]

Without reading a lot of this because most of what I saw is fan boy ridden I will give my experience:

I own an X800XL 256MB card, its a BBA, and a BFG 6800 OC (unlocked and running at 384/775).

Now that you know my cards I'll give my driver experiences with both:

So far the Cat's have been FAR better to me. I've never had a singel issue with them except going from 5.4 to 5.5 gave me a slight drop in CS:S, that was restored in 5.6. That has been the only problem I've had at all with Cat's.

Now for Forceware (that name alone kinda makes me worried), the newest drivers give me shadow errors in the BF2 demo, every shadow is a big square, so I either have to turn dynamic shadows completely off, or use the old drivers that came with the demo. Now I wouldnt mind that to much if it wasnt for the fact that the old ones give me errors in CS:S and HL2.

As far as layout. The Forceware drivers have a much simpler layout than the Catalyst Control Center IMO. But that doesnt really matter, I dont spend that much time in either. Though it cracks me up when people say the CCC is made for "noob's" when I think its the opposite.

IMO, the Cat's are more stable. The Forceware's are easier to use. Overall: Cat's win, I like stablity more than looks.......

 

[mrhemmy]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050609/nyth059.html?.v=10

Suck it down nVidia !!!!!!s.

suck it down fan boy

 

[Jbirney]

I too never really trust an sponsered article until I can review it myself. If the artical is techincally correct and has no holes then it does not matter. For example the 3DFX paper on AA back in the late voodoo days. 3DFX paid the Beyond3D folks to do a study and report. So while that was an sponsered event it was techincally correct and IMHO OK. I guess we will have to see what the report on this driver thing is all about...

 

[jebo_4jc]

Hmmm.....QFT! I wonder what percentage of 6800 cards are bfg.

It seemed like, for the x8xx, Sapphire, VisionTek, etc, all just regurgitated the reference designs, in general......If one of them started offering lifetime warranties and out of the box OC, great service, etc, that would be huge.

Is this sarcasm???

No I was actually serious. ATi either needs BFG, or else one of the ATi partners need to step up and differentiate themselves with performance, stability, and warranty (as bfg has) rather than putting 1,000 last-gen games in the box.

 

[^eMpTy^]

Hey I would love to discuss this (as long as everyone keeps calm, and keeps the personal attacks out of it).

Ok here is the scenario that we faced

1) Internally we run these tests every month.
2) Consistently we see that our stability score is higher
3) We are very proud of that fact
4) We really would like our end users to see these results
5) We at this point are faced with a choice: a) do we show these numbers ourselves? b) do we ask a tech website to try and run these numbers themselves - well we did try that and no web site wanted to bother to run the numbers c) hire a 3rd party testing lab to run the tests themselves and verify the results
6) We went with option c) and the press realease they did yesterday was from that

If there was a better option, I could not come up with it. Please tell me if this was your job, how would you get these results out. Dont you think your users would want to know these results? Would it have been more credible if I published them myself?

They are a professional company and have their business and reputation at stake. They ran some tests, and published the results.

Please tell me how that is bad?

It's not bad...the problem is simple...(and you'll see this same sentiment echoed at every other website that carried this story and has a method for user feedback)..."paid independent tests" is a contradiction in terms...nobody with any sense in their head is going to believe this...

If you don't believe me, just go look at any hardware site and see the same comments over and over again...

This is no reflection on you guys of course, everyone likes how you guys turned your driver department around and the monthly releases are just wonderful...but if you expect anyone to believe that your drivers are appreicably more stable than nvidia's...you're fighting an uphill battle...

I'm sure the investors will love to hear all about it in your next conference call though...should help your plunging stock value...

 

[Skrying]

It's not bad...the problem is simple...(and you'll see this same sentiment echoed at every other website that carried this story and has a method for user feedback)..."paid independent tests" is a contradiction in terms...nobody with any sense in their head is going to believe this...

If you don't believe me, just go look at any hardware site and see the same comments over and over again...

This is no reflection on you guys of course, everyone likes how you guys turned your driver department around and the monthly releases are just wonderful...but if you expect anyone to believe that your drivers are appreicably more stable than nvidia's...you're fighting an uphill battle...

I'm sure the investors will love to hear all about it in your next conference call though...should help your plunging stock value...

I agree, except I do believe ATi makes a much more stable driver than nVidia. Simple fact is that ATi has always been go to me. Every card from them I've enjoyed and so far out of the 4 ATi cards I've owned I've only had two driver issues. One issue before the Cat's were made, and one after.

Now, out of the 3 nVidia card's I have owned I've had around 6 or 7 driver issues. About 4 of those were very minor issues though, and I can remember 2 major issues (faulty shadows that either didnt work, or simply had to be removed, in the end totally ruining an enjoyment in two of the games I often play, and one amazingly weird issue where the driver causes an constant crash with my card, luckily the next release fixed this).

Now, about this "indepent study". It was a very STUPID mistake of the people at ATi to do this. Why? Because it comes off as a lie, and you set yourself up looking like the only way you can make people think your drivers are better is by paying some site to post it. Terrible idea. Internal tests can never be shown. Let word of mouth get you a good name out, not paying some site do it.