Apple’s Lame Fix For Antenna Issues

JUSTJOEL73 said:
It could be possible his mind is being remotely controlled from Apple HQ.
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epimetheus said:
I hate to keep going back and forth like this, because it feels like I'm harping on you, and that's not my intention.

But really? Steve Jobs = Apple

They are one and the same.

BTW, are you an Apple employee? You said "Steve Jobs make us easy to hate."
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No sir, I'm an IT manager of a project management company with seven Windows Server 2003 and 2008, and per my sig, I'm a Windows user. An iPhone 3GS is the only Apple product I have (strangely enough, so does TexUs).

I just don't like some of the narrow thinking some people seem to be having here. It annoys me, considering the entire purpose of this forum and web site is for technicians and enthusiasts who knows better than the average populace.

I know Steve Job has a lot to say about how Apple operates, but nobody's perfect. I just don't see one man being the company. It's the engineers and employees that make a company. But that's just me and how I think.
 
Azhar said:
I just don't like some of the narrow thinking some people seem to be having here. It annoys me, considering the entire purpose of this forum and web site is for technicians and enthusiasts who knows better than the average populace.
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Which is exactly why we see (and I can complain about) the issues the "average populace" doesn't know or care about.


Azhar said:
I know Steve Job has a lot to say about how Apple operates, but nobody's perfect. I just don't see one man being the company. It's the engineers and employees that make a company. But that's just me and how I think.
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Who do you think oversees and is RESPONSIBLE FOR those employees?

Do you think Congress is going to let Tony Hayward off the hook because it was his employees and not him?
 
TexUs said:
I'm sure they had more than one of these engineers testing it.
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Uh, you guys are forgetting something significant. The unit found in the bar was contained in a "fake" iPhone 3GS wrap-around, so that people wouldn't be suspicious a prototype was in use.

If all their field-units received a similar treatment, their engineers could have never contacted the antenna, thus triggered the problem.

I'm pretty certain that Apple will have nanocells distributed throughout their facility, thus making local debugging extremely difficult (even connecting the antennas would still give "full" signal if a nanocell were above your head). I've had these deployed in facilities:
http://www.ipaccess.com/picocells/nano3G/index.php

The reality of the issue is that Apple could have spent a *fraction of a penny* on each iPhone and sprayed a liquid sealant over the exposed antennas. The diamond coating would have been slightly more (not much), but they required a minimum layer of insulation. The most durable solution -- an internal antenna attached to the inside of a decorative plastic band (stainless colored, whatever).

Here's the rub. Name *any* other device with an exposed antenna. You can't, for precisely this reason. Wi-Fi, they are insulated, stereos (AM/FM), other cells, etc, etc. connecting antennas is a *bad* thing to do. However, it's also obvious that the iPhone wi-fi antenna isn't tuned optimally for the wavelength of wi-fi signals. By connecting the two antennas, you are increasing the reception area, and making the *new* surface more optimal for a different wavelength signal (which is obviously better for wi-fi). The same effect becomes deleterious for GSM frequencies.

You can in fact make a huge surface area for GSM reception, but unless the antenna is good at the necessary frequency, it's not going to accomplish much of anything except throwing more metal at the problem.

Typically, the best way to solve a problem is using multiple elements of an optimal size. Instead of one huge antenna, you can essentially combine 20 smaller ones optimal for those frequencies. This is however not optimal for a cell phone -- you can however mount a signal-repeater on your house that does exactly this.

As for the "software fix", that's totally ridiculous. I have no idea if their current indication is a "call quality meter", or if it's just marketing BS designed to make their phones look like they get better reception when held next to a competitor. If 5-bars meant, "you'll always get excellent speeds", that's one thing, but I doubt the Apple marketing department will ever share the logic for their prior choices.

And all the Apple fans talking about a death grip -- seriously, casual contact is causing a 20dB signal loss. If your skin is magically non-conductive, or you have a wrinkle precisely in the position of the antenna-gap, well, consider yourself lucky. I've seen plenty of Apple worshipers out there, and at this point I wouldn't believe any of them unless they showed me first-hand. Electrical engineering and physics are inflexible laws. My advice, try drinking a couple Gatorades and repeat the test. If you legitimately aren't bridging the gap, you must have excessively dry skin, or an electrolyte deficiency -- or your phone is defective and the internal leads aren't properly attached to the external antenna.
 
I really wish I could get my hands on the antennas from the iPhone 4. I have access to a Network Analyzer that would tell me if the resonant frequency for the antennas gets changed with and without a finger bridging the two.
 
Nah, this is Apple blaming AT&T.

Uh, yeah, sorry guys. Remember that "maximum signal" you thought you had? Uh, in reality it was just "maximum crappy signal AT&T was giving you". We're going to fix it so that our phone now shows how crappy a signal you actually are getting.
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This antenna fiasco is getting down right fucking nasty. It's gone from PR bullshit to downright fraud.
 
NoNRG said:
I really wish I could get my hands on the antennas from the iPhone 4. I have access to a Network Analyzer that would tell me if the resonant frequency for the antennas gets changed with and without a finger bridging the two.
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That would actually be a really good test. Detuning has to be happening at least on the voice/data side -- considering that Wi-Fi is benefiting from the larger antenna. I'm also curious what frequencies AT&T is using in various areas for their voice/data. In theory the antenna behavior can be different when in an 850Mhz coverage zone compared to 1900Mhz, but the antennas are usually okay, since all you're doing is doubling the frequency. Likewise, has anyone tested these on the Euro frequencies (900, 1800)? I'm curious how dialed-in their design happens to be. Antenna design gets especially odd when you include T-Mobile's AWS frequencies since you're at 1700 and 2100. Legitimate world-phones need to be able to tune a ridiculous number of frequencies these days.
 
They must be running out of excuses. Seem like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point.
 
Wow, long thread!

I just got to log onto my computer, open ff, there's comcast's homepage with news and what do I see but a headline saying Apple `stunned' to find iPhones show too many bars

"Apple Inc. said Friday that it was "stunned" to find that its iPhones have for years been using a "totally wrong" formula to determine how many bars of signal strength they are getting.

Apple said that's the reason behind widespread complaints from users that the latest model, iPhone 4, can show a sudden plunge in signal strength when they hold it in a way that covers a small black strip on one edge of the phone. Users have jokingly called this the "death grip" for the phone.

That drop seems exaggerated because the phone can wrongly display four or five bars of signal strength when it shouldn't, Apple said.

"Their big drop in bars is because their high bars were never real in the first place," the company said in a statement to users.

Yet the statement that the bar display is "totally wrong" is surprising, since there is no standard formula in the industry for translating signal strength to bars.

The company said it will fix the formula to one recommended by AT&T Inc. through a free software update within a few weeks for the most recent iPhone models, 3G, 3GS and 4. However, the "wrong" formula goes back as far as the original iPhone, launched in 2007."

2007? This has been an issue since the first iPhone and they're just now finding it? HUH?! Oh wait, it's AT&T's fault, tsk.

"Apple apologized to customers "for any anxiety we may have caused."

"We are also making bars 1, 2 and 3 a bit taller so they will be easier to see," the company said in the statement."

again, HUH? how is making the bars taller fixing the problem?

So glad for once I'm too broke and yes, anti-apple to have ever gotten one of these things.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
So, we choose from incompetence or malice.
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Pull your heads out of your asses, seriously.

The iPhone that was field tested (and found by our "beloved" Gizmodo) was wrapped in a case that made it look like an iPhone 3GS. Obviously the problem would not have been pin-pointed in tests like this, which we're probably covering the majority of their actual testing.

They made a mistake, back to the drawing board. I'm just surprised that actual antenna engineers weren't working on this shit in the first place, and that it wasn't more thoroughly tested.
 
ChristopherO said:
The reality of the issue is that Apple could have spent a *fraction of a penny* on each iPhone and sprayed a liquid sealant over the exposed antennas. The diamond coating would have been slightly more (not much), but they required a minimum layer of insulation.
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Agreed. I don't understand why this wasn't a viable solution. If Apple's sensible, they're already working to implement some sort of coating process in the manufacturing process. ~24 dBm of attenuation is not acceptable, even if it's somewhat avoidable for some users.

I'm curious to see where this ends ups. Steve claims that there's more up Apple's sleeve regarding the issue, it's just not clear what exactly that is.
 
Because spending a few cents is not an option when they could spend a few cents more and make a shitload of profit from the Bumper, that's why.

The Bumper exists for a reason: to keep people's grubby fingers off the metal which is what's causing the problems first and foremost for those persons affected by it.

Thinking they could rewrite laws of physics and 40 years of microwave energy antenna design and toss it out the window at the same time. Apple, arrogant?

Right.
 
ChristopherO said:
Antenna design gets especially odd when you include T-Mobile's AWS frequencies since you're at 1700 and 2100. Legitimate world-phones need to be able to tune a ridiculous number of frequencies these days.
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Yup, there are quite a few frequency bands to cover, and it wont get any easier now that Obama opened up a wider frequency range for cell phones. There are quad band antennas that come in a small package (54 mm long), so its been done. My BlackBerry Tour is a world phone and it isnt even as long in size as an iPhone 4 :p

Impedance matching the antenna for each frequency is the hard part. I know the theory, but I'm not sure if cell phones dynamically change their matching networks depending upon what frequency they detect, or what. That could even be part of the issue Apple is having.
 
ChristopherO said:
Uh, you guys are forgetting something significant. The unit found in the bar was contained in a "fake" iPhone 3GS wrap-around, so that people wouldn't be suspicious a prototype was in use.

If all their field-units received a similar treatment, their engineers could have never contacted the antenna, thus triggered the problem.
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Very good point.

After reading that, it's just like, "Wow, their QA sucked". I mean, that's all it comes down to.

Again it all comes down to Apple's freaking secrecy mantra. If they would openly test the damned phone in the way it's actually meant to be tested in versus covering it up, they could've discovered this issue.

ditzilla said:
The company said it will fix the formula to one recommended by AT&T Inc. through a free software update within a few weeks for the most recent iPhone models, 3G, 3GS and 4. However, the "wrong" formula goes back as far as the original iPhone, launched in 2007."

2007? This has been an issue since the first iPhone and they're just now finding it?
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No, they didn't just now "find" it... Consumers just now "realized it". Apple freaking put that issue in there back during a 3G update when they originally faked the signal bars, and it's stuck with the OS ever since.

Which means, once they revert back to the old method, my guess is there's going to be alot of TO'd 3G/3GS owners that will start complaining about signal quality again. But that's OK... The marketing surrounding the iPhone 4's better signal reception means they'll just go out and buy an iPhone 4 anyway.

Emission said:
They made a mistake, back to the drawing board.
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Except that's not what they're doing. They choice to lie about the issue, cover it up, and continue to sell units they know are defective. IE, fraud.
 
The way I see it Apple did their testing of the iphone 4 knowing the antenna design therefore being careful not to compromise it. Not smart ! :eek:
Unfortunately that methodolgy has led to a somewhat flawed design of the antenna setup.
Apple testers probably held the phone in such a way that they never eletrically shorted the 2 antenna's as depicted in Anandtech's article and therefore didn't see this situation coming OR they chose to ignore it. Bad idea !
Now the problem has "surfaced" Iphone 4 users are carrying on and baying for apple's blood and of course the next step is lets sue them for millions of dollars.

Simple fix for now is buy some sticky tape or what ever you call it to insulate the 2 points till a retro-active fix is provided and not the stupid rewriting of the signal strength display code although that does seem to warrant some re-writing nor the stupid bumpers that has been proposed !! :rolleyes:

Go Go Gadget Apple pfft

Fatman360
 
fatman360 said:
Now the problem has "surfaced" Iphone 4 users are carrying on and baying for apple's blood and of course the next step is lets sue them for millions of dollars.
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Well, the counter-point to this is that they should be taken to task... This reminds me of Intel's PR problem with the Pentium math bug. Fortunately that was remedied with a speedy fix, but it caused some financial pain... And that was even with them fully owning up to the issue (if I remember correctly, *they* disclosed it in their published errata).

The longer this mistake takes to be fixed, the more money Apple will need to retain to help early buyers. Worst case, they start spraying an insulated coating on the side, recall all the initial units. Replace them, then refurb the initial units with the coating, and sell those again for a discount. The economic loss in this situation would be fairly "small potatoes."

The longer they wait, the more the cost to fix the issue will mushroom. Admitting a mistake, and fixing it, will go a long way towards maintaining their corporate rep. However, I suspect that they believe most of the early adopters are Apple fanatics and will ignore the problem or even lie that it doesn't exist -- "There is no spoon!"

"Moderate" users might think, "Gee, what else are they trying to hide?" Secrecy rarely pays dividends for a corporation.
 
These aren't the bars you're looking for.
These aren't the drop calls you're experiencing.
The phone works just fine.
as you wish, MyJob
 
About time Apple paid the piper. I remember when they "fixed" the iPhone 3G signal bars with the formula they currently use because people complained that they never had full bars. To date I don't know how -93dBm is 5 bars of strength on an iPhone 3G (I had one, the piece of shit) and iPhone 3GS (we have one at work and we're 100 yards from a brand new 3G tower).

However, for some reason I think Apple is going to come out of this smelling like roses because as soon as this "magical" formula fix hits iPhone 4, people are going to blame connection issues on AT&T.
 
Emission said:
Isn't someone suing them already for some iPhone 4 flaw? A class-action suit?
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Class action isn't enough.
They need criminal charges brought against them, as the class action isn't going to do a darn thing to help consumers.

ChristopherO said:
The longer this mistake takes to be fixed, the more money Apple will need to retain to help early buyers. Worst case, they start spraying an insulated coating on the side, recall all the initial units. Replace them, then refurb the initial units with the coating, and sell those again for a discount. The economic loss in this situation would be fairly "small potatoes."
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Except they'd lose billions in company value (stock holders). It still makes more financial sense for them to lie about it. But if criminal charges ever end up being brought against them, that'd be even more devastating than the recall.
 
TexUs said:
Class action isn't enough.
They need criminal charges brought against them, as the class action isn't going to do a darn thing to help consumers.
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Class action suit is worthless in this case...but selling a shitty product isn't a criminal offense. If people would vote with their wallets and get a different damn phone that doesn't an Apple logo on it then Apple would have an incentive to build a better product. Until that magical day happens people who keep buying the phone after these problems are found are just as culpable as Apple. Maybe they should be brought up on charges of being criminally stupid.

Its a market place people...There is more than one smart phone in the world and there is more than one wireless provider in the US.
 
TexUs said:
Selling a product you know is flawed and doesn't work as intended... Is fraud. Fraud is crime.
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It's Apple. People buy it regardless.

It's not fraud if the customer wished to be defrauded?
 
by the same reasoning if i use two hands to grab my dick then that means my dick is 18" right? lol
 
TexUs said:
Selling a product you know is flawed and doesn't work as intended... Is fraud. Fraud is crime.
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It works if you don't hold it a certain way. Last time I checked there was no internationally mandated wait to hold a cell phone. Its fine to be pissed and not want to buy an apple product but attaching criminal culpability to a design flaw that doesn't impact everyone or cause the device to be completely non-functional is bordering on insanity.

If you are one of the people who has purchased an iphone 4 and don't like it then take the damn thing back.
 
So more bars in more places is really bullshit? No shit? HA!!! All this does is prove once and for all what a lot of people already know and that is that signal strength bars are bullshit, they always where and they always have been. Someone want to ask how the bars are characterized by at&t or Apple? Then all you will hear is crickets. It's a fairly guarded secret and the scam rolls on.
 
I'm by no means an Apple supporter. I don't even have an iphone, and always hated the iphone.

ATT is experiencing problems with their 3g stuff.. due to implementation of the iPhone4 or so I've heard... it should be clearing up soon though. So some of the problems is ATT... I don't doubt the iphone has problems too though.

Luckily for me I don't use 3g... I just have a phone that texts (with numbers =/) and make phone calls.
 
TexUs said:
Except they'd lose billions in company value (stock holders). It still makes more financial sense for them to lie about it. But if criminal charges ever end up being brought against them, that'd be even more devastating than the recall.
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Well, not sure I agree with that. Intel rebounded fine after their problems, which arguably was worse since it could lead to all sorts of floating point issues (in the grand scheme of things a "dropped call" is annoying but not critical). In general, I think consumers tend to respect firms that admit mistakes, and if anything gain more brand-loyalty over time due to a correction. I kind of figure Toyota will be the same way -- give it a year or two and everyone will suddenly respect them for being willing to admit problems and make-good.

Short term I'd guess stock price really would be unpredictable... Apple seems to defy known rules of stock-price when it comes to Wall Street. I don't think they've publicly said, but the phone must be responsible for 50% of their revenue. If that's true, the phone alone is worth about 125B (half their market-cap), which has to make it the single most valuable product on the planet. Think about it -- that's more than The Coca-Cola Company's entire market cap. I have a lot of respect for the brand, they've accomplished amazing things in a business sense.
 
brycejones said:
It works if you don't hold it a certain way. Last time I checked there was no internationally mandated wait to hold a cell phone.
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Which is exactly why mandating a way we hold our phones to be asinine.
 
TexUs said:
Which is exactly why mandating a way we hold our phones to be asinine.
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And thinking someone should go to jail for fraud because you can't hold your phone the way you to want isn't asinine?

Take it back or stop whining...there are other phones out there...
 
brycejones said:
And thinking someone should go to jail for fraud because you can't hold your phone the way you to want isn't asinine?
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Apple advertises people holding it exactly like that. Here's a screencap from one of their ads, though many abound:
A5C0T.png



So what do you say to that?

It's false advertising. I'm holding my phone the way Apple demonstrates and yet the signal still drops out. They know it too, that's FRAUD.
 
And plus you can't send a company "to jail", LOL...

What'd come of criminal charges is perhaps government-level mandates/fees that force a recall or whatnot on Apple. That's why this is good. A class action suit that amounts to $2/person won't do squat for the consumer.
 
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