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I'm sure x86 will move forward, but this does recall what happened in mobile chips. People shrugged their shoulders at the A4 (it was a fine chip, just not mind-blowing). Flash forward a decade later, however, and the lowest-priced iPhone is generally faster than the most expensive Android phones. The x86 chip industry ignores Apple's moves at its peril.At a quick glance that looks pretty spectacular, especially for a debut chip. I'm not an analysis and don't pay that much attention, but if Apple keeps pushing this hard what might this mean for the landscape in 5-10 years?
I'm also not a Mac guy but I wish I could get this in a 17" Laptop running Linux.
I'm sure x86 will move forward, but this does recall what happened in mobile chips. People shrugged their shoulders at the A4 (it was a fine chip, just not mind-blowing). Flash forward a decade later, however, and the lowest-priced iPhone is generally faster than the most expensive Android phones. The x86 chip industry ignores Apple's moves at its peril.
Android phone prices have crept up and are often higher than iPhones now, so I’m not sure there’s really an “iPhone tax” anymore.The problem is: Most consumers don't care. I know that personally, I don't find my Snapdragon powered Android device slow at all - I couldn't care less if an iPhone is faster as I hate iOS and aren't going to pay the iPhone tax.
One would think, but look at the sales of new phones (how many of those are from people having already working phone that are upgrading)The problem is: Most consumers don't care. I know that personally, I don't find my Snapdragon powered Android device slow at all - I couldn't care less if an iPhone is faster as I hate iOS and aren't going to pay the iPhone tax.
There are areas where it will matter, though. Apple's chips don't just benchmark better -- there are harder-to-quantify elements like the overall responsiveness (and it's not just due to the faster SSDs) and the instant wake.The problem is: Most consumers don't care. I know that personally, I don't find my Snapdragon powered Android device slow at all - I couldn't care less if an iPhone is faster as I hate iOS and aren't going to pay the iPhone tax.
The platform which isn't deliberately eating battery life to make me upgrade again?There are areas where it will matter, though. Apple's chips don't just benchmark better -- there are harder-to-quantify elements like the overall responsiveness (and it's not just due to the faster SSDs) and the instant wake.
I suppose I should have put a greater emphasis on battery life, as that's something users will definitely notice (even during the pandemic). If your Windows laptop conks out after 6 hours in real life but your friend's MacBook lasts for 10 or 12, which platform is more tempting if battery life is important to you?
The funny thing: if you've been through the PowerPC to Intel transition, you could see this coming.
Apple spends a lot of energy on chip transitions. It tests the architecture years in advance "just in case" and spends ages on universal binary and code translation. It's not really satisfied until the experience is as elegant as it can be (it can't account for every single app, of course). Not that you'll never encounter a problem, but they're so rare that you can assume apps will work. I hardly had any issues with my apps when I got my first Intel Mac, and I'd expect similar with ARM.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Microsoft could be in trouble if it doesn't get its act together with ARM. It might never happen, but you can imagine a nightmare scenario for Microsoft a few years from now where its vendors are stuck on modestly improved x86 chips and Apple is running rings around most of them with ARM. "If you want the fastest mainstream laptop, you have to get a Mac" is the sort of thing that would keep Satya Nadella awake at night.
It's faster than the Polaris 560 units they've been shipping in the MacBook "not so pro" 15 inch models. When all you have to beat is yourself, then you make it an easy job
But they are 2x the IGP performance of Zen 2 `15w APUs, so there is still that.
View attachment 300330
With this good a performance-scaling, it's probably enough performance to play Wow at 1080p med?
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Like it or not Apple is still over 1/4 of all smartphones sold in the world. Where I live in Canada they are actually at 51% of the phone market as of October 2020.One would think, but look at the sales of new phones (how many of those are from people having already working phone that are upgrading)
Apple has already updated XCode for the new architecture, and they claim that most applications that were compliant with the latest MacOS versions can be made so for the ARM64 simply by choosing the compiling options in the software.Blizzard just announced that World of Warcraft now has native support for ARM64 on Apple. Not bad, considering that WoW continues to remain the most popular MMO. This was not totally unexpected, as Blizzard has a long history of making their games compatible with Apple desktops/laptops, regardless of architecture. World of Warcraft had also supported PowerPC based Macs in the past. This is significant IMO because for many who play WoW, it's pretty much the only game they play. That would make a transition to an ARM64 Apple computer very easy - assuming that the included GPU is decent.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/mac-support-update-november-16/722775
There are areas where it will matter, though. Apple's chips don't just benchmark better -- there are harder-to-quantify elements like the overall responsiveness (and it's not just due to the faster SSDs) and the instant wake.
I suppose I should have put a greater emphasis on battery life, as that's something users will definitely notice (even during the pandemic). If your Windows laptop conks out after 6 hours in real life but your friend's MacBook lasts for 10 or 12, which platform is more tempting if battery life is important to you?
8-wide decode, 8-wide issue, 320Kb L1, 630 instruction ROB, 6 INT + 4 MEM + 4 FMA,...Care to share the microarchitectural details?
Expect to wait a very long time. Apple's signaled that they won't support other OSes on Apple Silicon hardware, and devising support for all the hardware in it will be time consuming and may never be complete. As I said here earlier, these are great chips if you want to run macOS and are okay with being tethered to Apple's priorities and schedule, but anyone else should still look elsewhere.Looking at what apple is doing in the mobile space with walled gardens, I wouldnt be surprised if they eventually wall off macOS as well. Feels like they are pushing it that way already in the name of "security."
I would like to see how well this hardware would do with other OSes. (e.g. Linux)
Wouldn't "I can use my laptop all day without plugging in" be a pretty compelling usability argument? I know there's such a thing as "good enough," but genuine all-day battery is something that could reel you in if you want more than a few hours of runtime.The overall responsiveness and wake times of my Samsung Tab S5e are absolutely fine, there's no perceptible lag that bothers me in the slightest. Likewise, my battery life is amazing.
Once again, most consumers care about price and acceptable usability - And that's about the extent of it. A Windows 10 laptop with 4GB of ram and a 5400RPM HDD running an entry level Intel or AMD processor exceeds the level of responsiveness most are comfortable with, most Android based devices smash the performance of such a device.
I would say this is a gross oversimplification of what the wants and needs of users - even so-called consumers.The overall responsiveness and wake times of my Samsung Tab S5e are absolutely fine, there's no perceptible lag that bothers me in the slightest. Likewise, my battery life is amazing.
Once again, most consumers care about price and acceptable usability - And that's about the extent of it. A Windows 10 laptop with 4GB of ram and a 5400RPM HDD running an entry level Intel or AMD processor exceeds the level of responsiveness most are comfortable with, most Android based devices smash the performance of such a device.
Never, unless Apple decides to make a touch interface version of macOS, which for at least 10 years they've signaled that they won't.I wonder when the first M1 based Ipad drops?
My original ipad air is getting a bit long in the tooth.
Agreed. Referencing my earlier post on this thread, I don't think this is about how the silicon directly fares against its x86 brethren. This is about enabling acceleration of workloads by embedding features into the operating system that leverage the silicon, and cascading them upward to applications far more quickly than would otherwise be possible. Take as an example nVidia and the RTX I/O introduction. Years to develop the silicon features. Who knows how long Microsoft spent developing the API frameworks. Finally, a "launch" but now it will be years still before any game takes advantage of it. nVidia and Microsoft move only so quickly to bring the accelerator to practical use. Imagine that same feature in this new model: the OS fully exposes the hardware from Day 1, all first party apps take advantage from Day 1, and most of the application ecosystem is leveraging the feature within a few months.Obviously M1 is optimized for this kind of work and workflow but this is a serious advantage. I know most of you guys probably don't follow Lee, but he's actually primarily a PC editor in Da Vinci Resolve. His main machine is a Zen 2 machine with a 2080Ti I believe and something like 64GB of RAM. And this Mini can playback and edit files more smoothly than that machine.
For video editors that essentially means that this $800 machine (or $1300 to max out the RAM and move to a 1TB SSD) wrecks a $2000+ machine in video editing. That's a serious practical difference. And again, this is not even their big desktop class chip part that will end up in iMac Pro or Mac Pro.
People keep repeating this, but it's factually not true. There is nothing stopping nVidia from making ARM chips exactly like Apple is doing without buying ARM.The m1 chip shows clearly why Nvidia is buying ARM.
No one has access to M1 other than Apple. nVidia will have to invest their own money and time into development of specialized chips, the same as any other vendor.They wish to repeat what apple is trying to do with their new chips, and take a large chunk of the x86 market that apple won’t take.
If nVidia wanted an x86 license they could've gotten it for pennies on the dollar compared to buying ARM. That is of course if and when buying ARM gets past regulators.Intel should have just given Jensen an x86 license. The accountants were in charge for too long.
It also gives NVidia directional control of where they take ARM, they can work those sorts of system-level integration initiatives and fund it through ARM and their licensing rather than through NVidia while giving them a potential future leg up and providing additional revenue streams. They could have done it now with their licensing and not purchased ARM but it would have greatly changed the accounting and financials of it in the process.owning and licensing arm means they get extra revenue as long as the ecosystem continues to do well, regardless of whether it’s Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, or whoever, as those companies renew licenses or new companies want to get licensing.
Apple making a big splash with arm means increased mindshare - and potentially market share - in an area where it has traditionally had none (desktops/laptops/workstations) and that could lead to more customers for arm technology, which is just good for nvidia as the licensor.
I can’t speak for anyone else here obviously but I think saying “this is why nvidia bought arm”, to me, is really saying “this could be really big for arm, so nvidia is in a good position.”
although I would like to see what they can cook up, if they decide to enter the general purpose cpu market as more than just a company selling expensive sbc setups to customers with very specific needs.
They're going to have to get a lot of new license holders for it to matter. Most years ARM Ltd has been a losing business. Which is why Softbank is selling it in the first place and why ARM themselves sold themselves to Softbank. Their model has made up a lot of mind share but not a lot of profit.owning and licensing arm means they get extra revenue as long as the ecosystem continues to do well, regardless of whether it’s Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, or whoever, as those companies renew licenses or new companies want to get licensing.
Apple making a big splash with arm means increased mindshare - and potentially market share - in an area where it has traditionally had none (desktops/laptops/workstations) and that could lead to more customers for arm technology, which is just good for nvidia as the licensor.
I can’t speak for anyone else here obviously but I think saying “this is why nvidia bought arm”, to me, is really saying “this could be really big for arm, so nvidia is in a good position.”
although I would like to see what they can cook up, if they decide to enter the general purpose cpu market as more than just a company selling expensive sbc setups to customers with very specific needs.
I feel like they're setting themselves up to have regulators in all of their business. If they torpedo ARM or horde specific technology for themselves - it wouldn't take much to prove they are being anti-competitive.It also gives NVidia directional control of where they take ARM, they can work those sorts of system-level integration initiatives and fund it through ARM and their licensing rather than through NVidia while giving them a potential future leg up and providing additional revenue streams. They could have done it now with their licensing and not purchased ARM but it would have greatly changed the accounting and financials of it in the process.
But by owning ARM NVidia doesn't really need to have a competitive advantage, if they build the platform then license it accordingly it's open and anybody can use it, and that way NVidia doesn't have to worry about sourcing fab time or any of the logistics. This way if they build the fastest or somebody else does they are winners regardless because it just helps their brand. As far as regulators go unless they make drastic changes to the licensing model or the pricing structure regulators won't be giving them any more of a stink eye than they already were. In Apple's case there is a distinct competitive advantage to them keeping their ARM work internal and exclusive to them so yes it would be a conflict for them if they had made the purchase regulators would be crawling all over them for being anti-competitive to the Android market. In NVidia's case, even Apple's successes help them now because it pushes the ARM brand even if their chips are exclusive to Apple.They're going to have to get a lot of new license holders for it to matter. Most years ARM Ltd has been a losing business. Which is why Softbank is selling it in the first place and why ARM themselves sold themselves to Softbank. Their model has made up a lot of mind share but not a lot of profit.
I feel like they're setting themselves up to have regulators in all of their business. If they torpedo ARM or horde specific technology for themselves - it wouldn't take much to prove they are being anti-competitive.
This is the reason why Apple devested in ARM (they used to be 15% shareholders). Because owning ARM would just raise up more scrutiny from regulators. M1 is the fastest chip currently available in a consumer class product - if Apple owned ARM then they'd have to answer the very direct question of: "why isn't this chip being licensed to any other companies for use?".
The Cortex SOC as an obvious example is licensed away. If nVidia wants to have "competitive advantage" with their chips they essentially won't be able to, because as soon as they make it they'll also have to license their designs.
Wouldn't "I can use my laptop all day without plugging in" be a pretty compelling usability argument? I know there's such a thing as "good enough," but genuine all-day battery is something that could reel you in if you want more than a few hours of runtime.
And let's face it: many people need more than a mobile tablet, iPads included. A new MacBook Air gives you that kind of longevity alongside a full desktop-level OS. Mobile tablets are getting closer, but I couldn't really do my job on a Galaxy Tab S5e or iPad where I can on a Mac.
Saw this today... and thought back to your post. Video of someone using M1 mini base with logic. Long video but I found it entertaining.I was tempted to get one to run logic pro x, till I saw the base only comes with 8GB, and upgrading RAM to 16GB costs a small fortune (same for the ssd upgrade). I'll maintain my unofficial machine for now since you really shouldn't ever buy any first generation Apple product. Especially not at these prices for what's included. I would have jumped though if 16GB was default and came at the 8GB price.
Saw this today... and thought back to your post. Video of someone using M1 mini base with logic. Long video but I found it entertaining.
Gotta say..... Apples mem management may be just that good. We may have to stop thinking of the apple machines in comparison to Intel/Windows PCs. Seeing him SMOOTHLY running logic with over 900 plugins on a 8gb machine is pretty damn impressive. In the end this guy is still not switching yet... until more third party Plugin developers catch up. Looks good for the future though. I gotta say I didn't expect that machine to be able to run that smooth with a large project.
His 6 year old mini hit the CPU wall at around 400 plugins. Clearly a well built PC could go further. Still impressive for a mini. Its surprising how many creative types have been using minis for years for things like Logic. Gotta say from experience... in terms of Audio the Mac platform is just miles ahead of windows. Yes you can build a much more powerful PC.... but yes they are annoying more often then they should be. When this guy recounted the story of pitching his 90s PC out a 4th floor window for real.... I sympathized. I never destroyed one much less toss it out 4th floor window. I did have a (prosumer not pro level for sure) line6 audio interface for awhile probably around a decade back already.... shit the bed all the time in windows. Would work for a few days then stop working... and hang the audio system completely forcing a reboot. Plug it into a mac and it just worked... hell even just worked in Linux.^ awesome video. That guy is entertaining. I do note that the system overloaded at 1030 which is probably due to crossing the 1024 (10 bit) addressing barrier. (or whatever logic deems as max buffers). An adjusted system could most likely handle more. That whole project probably fits comfortably in the 12meg L2. Still walking 1k of anything of more than trivial computations will tax any CPU quite a bit.
I can also say that for video processing they just work better. I have a handful of 2015 MBP’s and they are holding their own in Adobe Premier against Much newer systems. They loose out to the Ryzen 3900’s I have in the classroom but not by as much as you think they should. And most of the kids prefer working from the Mac’s they say they just do it easier.His 6 year old mini hit the CPU wall at around 400 plugins. Clearly a well built PC could go further. Still impressive for a mini. Its surprising how many creative types have been using minis for years for things like Logic. Gotta say from experience... in terms of Audio the Mac platform is just miles ahead of windows. Yes you can build a much more powerful PC.... but yes they are annoying more often then they should be. When this guy recounted the story of pitching his 90s PC out a 4th floor window for real.... I sympathized. I never destroyed one much less toss it out 4th floor window. I did have a (prosumer not pro level for sure) line6 audio interface for awhile probably around a decade back already.... shit the bed all the time in windows. Would work for a few days then stop working... and hang the audio system completely forcing a reboot. Plug it into a mac and it just worked... hell even just worked in Linux.
Its easy to see how creative types bail on Windows PCs, when mac really is just plug and play with that stuff. Even now recording on windows relies on non standard audio systems to get latency to a acceptable place for live recording ect. The Apple audio framework is just far superior. Makes the "apple tax" crowd seem silly honestly. Why pay more for a Mac.... geez I don't know cause I'm plugging it into 10k worth of audio gear that I would rather have just work. Who cares if the PC costs 500 bucks more.
The MDM providers have all updated accordingly, software wise anything that comes from the Apple store doesn’t see or care about a difference. From a mass management side there isn’t any difference either, and Office 365 is ready to go as well. I don’t know what your district uses for back end but I could plop them in beside the 2018’s and have no difference in workflow deploying either at this point.looks like my work is confident in them. they ordered 350 m1 mbas for teachers. hopefully they "just work", like us support guys have been told.
Also makes wireless streaming work nicely if you have an Apple TV in there.Being able to run iOS apps would be great for teachers if all the students also had iPads
well hopefully thats actually the case. local o365 or online? 'cause online works on anything. i know big sur(sp?) is giving us grief with some apps, drivers and a/v....The MDM providers have all updated accordingly, software wise anything that comes from the Apple store doesn’t see or care about a difference. From a mass management side there isn’t any difference either, and Office 365 is ready to go as well. I don’t know what your district uses for back end but I could plop them in beside the 2018’s and have no difference in workflow deploying either at this point.
Local, though I don’t know if it’s the “full” install or the lite version they have on the iPad Pro’s.well hopefully thats actually the case. local o365 or online? 'cause online works on anything. i know big sur(sp?) is giving us grief with some apps, drivers and a/v....