That's great! Only need to work 18 hours a day to pay for it. What a productivity boost!
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Apple M1
- Thread starter ChadD
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I view this more as an opportunity to better take advantage of macOS and differentiate it further from what is possible in a Windows or Linux platform. My thinking is that right now, Intel and AMD do not compete for the fastest processor per se; rather they compete to offer the fastest Windows processor or Linux processor to accomplish a set of general purpose tasks. And furthermore, the status quo is that while Microsoft does collaborate with Intel and AMD on platform optimization, just as they surely optimize their road maps based off where they believe Microsoft is going, this level of collaboration and engagement is probably not very strong. By using Intel processors, Apple neither is getting something from Intel that uniquely enables macOS to evolve, nor are they able to evolve macOS in a way that is particularly differentiated from Windows beyond those differentiators that exist today e.g. user interface, different browser, etc. by making this move, Macs can start to compete on specific productivity tasks and take full advantage of both silicon as well as macOS’s ability to utilize their silicon.
I think a somewhat comparable analogue would be, say, nVidia’s RTX I/O aka A focused effort between a hardware vendor and a software API supplier to significantly accelerate a specific workflow. but, this is much more far reaching. Perhaps another analogue would be 3dfx hardware and Glide. If the silicon continues to improve at the rate it does, and macOS can evolve and iterate quickly enough to take advantage of it—quickly meaning faster than Microsoft’s ability to take advantage of platform silicon features provided by AMD, Intel or nVidia— then this could be a huge break with the past and a positive for all of us. If a category enabling HW/SW feature becomes emergent, it’s almost certain it will show up on a Mac platform sooner than it will on a Windows/x86 platform. If on the other the silicon lags, or macOS stagnates, or Microsoft gets much better at entangling it’s roadmap with that of the CPU designers its products run on, then this may not play out so well. I guess we’ll see.
I am very curious to read about how these benchmark, and would imagine most of us are as well. It has been decades since there was a credible alternative to desktop x86 and I think we should all welcome the idea of one since it will drive competition all around.
I think a somewhat comparable analogue would be, say, nVidia’s RTX I/O aka A focused effort between a hardware vendor and a software API supplier to significantly accelerate a specific workflow. but, this is much more far reaching. Perhaps another analogue would be 3dfx hardware and Glide. If the silicon continues to improve at the rate it does, and macOS can evolve and iterate quickly enough to take advantage of it—quickly meaning faster than Microsoft’s ability to take advantage of platform silicon features provided by AMD, Intel or nVidia— then this could be a huge break with the past and a positive for all of us. If a category enabling HW/SW feature becomes emergent, it’s almost certain it will show up on a Mac platform sooner than it will on a Windows/x86 platform. If on the other the silicon lags, or macOS stagnates, or Microsoft gets much better at entangling it’s roadmap with that of the CPU designers its products run on, then this may not play out so well. I guess we’ll see.
I am very curious to read about how these benchmark, and would imagine most of us are as well. It has been decades since there was a credible alternative to desktop x86 and I think we should all welcome the idea of one since it will drive competition all around.
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If we are talking about the Macbook pro, it is has pro in is name for a reason, if you need more than the Air or an $600 used laptop, if you pay $1,300 for a computer in 2020 you probably do some work with it, that said maybe ram usage is much less than on a windows 10 system (for which even with 16 gig it compress a lot of stuff in ram in not so heavy usage)
cybereality
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16GB is fine for a laptop. While there are definitely uses for more RAM, I feel like in that case you'd want the power of a desktop.
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Yes as somebody who has brought in the 32 GB Macbook Pro variants I can assure you that by the time you get into any application where that amount of memory can be utilized the CPU and GPU become seriously hindering factors.
I am sure they will come up with some M2 for the higher end machines next year and then cut those down or keep using M1 for the lower end. Obviously, we need reviews but considering how well an iPad Pro runs on less hardware, Apple can finally justify their pricing.
That is it, Apples are great if you fit in their mold.
I know far to many Apple fans IRL that think they can do everything and anything, but won't even sit at a PC to test their bias. Yet I always have to sit at their Apple to see just how great it is.
cybereality
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I think choice is great. Personally I wouldn't use a Mac unless absolutely necessary but I'm fine with it being good for other people. Same way I like Linux but I wouldn't assume it was right for everyone.
I have a number of Admins who can’t use a PC and they are too “old” to train and too close to retirement to bother with. They use them differently, painful for me to watch but it’s their workflow and they get their work done so can’t complain.
Like Linux I’ve tried to use them on and off but they don’t stick for me. They have their uses and I keep them relegated to those.
The current Firestorm core, constrained in a A14 phone, is able to outperform the fastest Intel core and is only pennies behind a top Zen3 core in single thread performance
The cores in the M1 will run circles around any x86 core. Moreover the Apple design is ultraefficient. The A14 is below 5W, whereas the R9 5950X goes up to 49W in 1T.
DukenukemX
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What are you then? One without trolling?
Nobody said that ARM can't compete with x86, just Apples variant of ARM. As good as Apple ARM chips are, they aren't going to compete against x86 with very little thermal cooling. Also you're going by a 6k HDR display to show it's performance? Wanna put that next to the Xbox Series X/PS5's 8K capabilities? Displaying at those resolutions and not looking like a slide show are two different things, which again marketing is taking advantage of.
Better yet, lets place a bet to see if it's better than Ryzen units. Intel isn't the standard anymore.
DukenukemX
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Synthetic tests are not the best choice for comparing things. I'd like to see some real world applications like a render test or even a game. Synthetic tests are known for their fuckery.
Agreed. This is promising stuff, but theoreticals have to translate to real-world performance. I suspect Apple is confident these will at least outperform the models they replaced, and that's no mean feat for a first try at in-house computer CPUs.
D
Deleted whining member 223597
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You already made up your mind in the previous post, doesn’t really matter anymore now does it? Apple bad!
Razer just brought out a laptop in the same category and it starts at $1200 with a 1080P screen and 8gb of ram. As I mentioned before, I feel like you guys are comparing this to the wrong category. If you want a gaming laptop, Apple isn’t it.
pendragon1
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they are touting its gaming performance while showing a slideshow(fps) of a game that looks like its a mobile port. some real comparisons would be good.
Well to be fair they will be marketing these to people that have been using ipad pros. No doubt the new chips destroy the ipad. A mac mini isn't going to replace a next gen console... never mind a PC. However will these do everything someone using a current generation macbook do ? That is the question.
Comparing them to windows gaming is sort of pointless. No one is going to buy a Apple anything to play windows games.
In my experience.... Macbooks are used by developers, creatives, and a ton of hipster type regular folks that don't do much more then browse the web.
For creatives.... the Adobe ARM versions are going to be the most important bit of the equation and it looks like we'll be waiting till 2021 before we see photoshop on ARM mac. If Adobe has taken advantage of the accelerators Apple has built its going to be VERY attractive to those types of Apple users... and perhaps even convert a few new customers.
For developers... this looks very interesting. Tensor cores, ARM hardware.... lots and lots of potential. I expect you will see even more Macs on campuses with computer science types. No doubt these are going to be popular with the developer crowd.
For the average hipster type middle age folks that have been using Intel Macs..... they won't even notice the difference. Sure they'll get 10+ hours of battery, but their machines will probably still be sitting on their Kitchen islands. lol
Anyway ya when we get comparisons its going to be to Apple ecosystem stuff so expect comparisons to ipad games.
SOAREVERSOR
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Plenty of people "game" on macs. It's just not what people here think of. Yeah, there are ipad games that are messily ported over, but then there are also things like Diablo where people are just playing single player and they don't care. Also with game streaming services we all know where things are headed.
Would I buy a mac to game on, well no. But I'll take one of these airs as a travel laptop for the wife.
Apple Arcade is slowly growing and they are trying to attract larger titles.
$699 for that mini?They must be making a massive profit on those devices
lol and that $699 model only comes with 8Gb of ram and 256Gb ssd.
Heh, I got a 15 inch quad core (6300hq) Acer laptop with a 3840x2160 display and a nvidia 950m display adapter a few years ago for $645. This mini is definitely over priced.
I was tempted to get one to run logic pro x, till I saw the base only comes with 8GB, and upgrading RAM to 16GB costs a small fortune (same for the ssd upgrade). I'll maintain my unofficial machine for now since you really shouldn't ever buy any first generation Apple product. Especially not at these prices for what's included. I would have jumped though if 16GB was default and came at the 8GB price.
Ipad 1, Watch 0, AppleTV 1-3, and Iphone 2g all agree.
Never buy a first gen apple product.
I agree... there is a surprising number of mac users and lovers in the audio recording industry. I am still interested to see some reviews of how things go on ARM hardware. I agree though 8gb on the base is a bit light.
I wouldn't say "never," but do think carefully knowing that a much better sequel might be around the corner. I enjoyed my original Apple Watch in part because it felt like a grand experiment, a chance to see how this rethink of smartwatches was like in daily life.
Also, I liked the second-gen Apple TV at the time! The 4th-gen and later are much better, but still...
VST support will probably be a mess for 1-2 years, so it's probably best to let other people find the bugs. I'll be pleasantly surprised if Rosetta actually does a good job with VST latency.
SunnyD
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"up to 6x faster GPU performance" ... compared to what exactly? Not having a GPU? Sorry, no SoC is going to have better GPU performance than a (midrange) discrete GPU.
Oh I get it.
I still have 2 Apple TV 3s, 2 iPad 1s, wrote the post you responded to from a MacBook Air (2013 and going strong) and am responding now from an iPhone X.
Ive just been burnt by Apple too many times with buying in too early. That said their CS was top notch when I had a problem with their higher end ear buds when they were still wired. Sent me a free pair twice actually.
They make IMO great mobile devices and I’ll end up with the 2nd gen ARM MacBook. Probably two actually.
Spun Ducky
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If they did a 17" 16:10 version I would consider it as my dev work depends more on comfort of the machine than speed. It seems for now I will be sticking with the LG Gram 17s although I wish they would drop intel and do an 8 core ryzen. The 1065g7 in the current one isn't super slow but its not a fireball either for the high price of the machine. I figure so long as these have the tools for web development a lot of devs will be happy and not care its ARM based.
Ya probably best to let others find all the bugs in that stuff. Abelton 11 is coming early 2021 I would assume they will have a ARM native version... but VSTs are probably going to be fun. Hopefully some of the majors like eastwest ect will make any changes if there required. I am sure anyone using a bunch of the free type VSTs is in for pain.
D
Deleted whining member 223597
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I prefer Apple devices for my phone and laptop, I’m not really interested in their desktops. I also like the AppleTV, but the Nvidia Shield is also really nice.
Well they are comparing it against the 2018 Mac Mini so that would be 6x faster than an Intel integrated 630 that was available there I would assume.
Same here. Though iMac has an amazing display.
I really like the iMac myself, if just because you get a 5K screen for a really good price. It's almost to the point where you're buying a 5K display with a bonus computer attached.
If the new mini was $499, I would have no complaints. Or if the $699 had 16Gb/ 1TB ssd, I'd have no complaints. But $699 for a paltry 8Gb of ram and 256Gb ssd is highway robbery. The $899 mini has 8Gb ram and 512Gb SSD. Bumping up that SSD to 512Gb would be $50 at most. Also I love how everything is soldered onto the motherboard, so you are forced to pay the apple tax if you want to upgrade anything.
DukenukemX
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And you sound like you made up your mind as well. Nothing I say to you will change your mind. Also keep in mind that I want to see real world benchmarks with real applications.
So you think that because I think Apple bad that anything not Apple is good? Don't buy Razer products if you're overpaying.
So what is Apple laptops then? Productivity machine? Show me productivity benchmarks then and not some Geekbench score. Render a video on it and then do the same on a x86 laptop. Also if Apple can't play games then what business does it have with a 6K display?
I don't like the built in ram but I can see the reasons why to do it but no easy outside ssd/data drive upgrades again? That was the worst part of last years new intel mac mini. Soldered m.2 ssd drives.... insanity. Even LinusTechTips ripped on them for not allowing a 2.5'' drive in the mac mini. No 10g port upgrade either.
Sorry Apple and fans but the mini is outclassed by intel nuc type machines these days. Bring it down to $499 with non soldered ssd's and/or some data expansion and you'll be competitive in the mini desktop market again. Then again I think Apple just might care about selling the minis to server companies more than individuals.
Sorry Apple and fans but the mini is outclassed by intel nuc type machines these days. Bring it down to $499 with non soldered ssd's and/or some data expansion and you'll be competitive in the mini desktop market again. Then again I think Apple just might care about selling the minis to server companies more than individuals.
Red Falcon
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Because hi-res displays are used exclusively for gaming, and absolutely positively nothing else.
Productivity? Content creation? Media creation? Photo and video editing? CAD and design work? Programming and rendering? Pfff, who needs any of that junk.
Red Falcon
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I fully agree with both of you on this.
The exciting thing about all of this is not Apple's anti-customer/consumer megacorp attitude, non-upgradable and extremely overpriced devices, but the fact that they are going to be the ones to push mainstream development of the ARM ISA forward.
This will allow other software developers to follow, inside and outside of the Apple ecosystem, which will bring about the coming paradigm shift away from x86-64 - assuming AMD doesn't continue to push forward innovation and competition.
Apple's move forward with ARM on the workstation/desktop/laptop market is what we need to get direct comparisons of ARM to x86-64, both synthetic and real-world.
As for their new products, they are all a major step backward in terms of upgradability, and are extremely anti-consumer as far as the cost goes for what little is being offered.
Apple is a megacorp, but even a megacorp can have a silver-lining, and that is the push forward to ARM and the overall development that will be opened in all industries and markets that would otherwise not be possible or cost-effective.
I’m not too worried about the lack of upgrade options on the Mac Mini’s, most people who buy them never do upgrade them. I will be far more interested in seeing what they do for their heavier units.