is it ?
Well at least its a dx 11 game so you can actual use the features of your card.
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AMD's ATI Radeon HD 5830 Review @ [H]
- Thread starter Brent_Justice
- Start date
is it ?
Well at least its a dx 11 game so you can actual use the features of your card.
The MW2 deal definitely sweetens this. Considering that Modern Warfare 2 is going to be $60 for a LONG time (go activision extortion!), a 5830 with MW2 does indeed bring it down to the $200 sweet spot. Still, I agree with others that the vanilla price of $240 is too high. I'm also not too particularly fond of the lavish Ati praise around here...I understand that Kyle uses it for his setup and that he does indeed love that, but it just seems a little too unobjective to me. That might just be me though.
funkydmunky
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I strongly suspect the 5800 line is going to have a $50+ price drop across the board very soon. Only Nvidia knows exactly when that will be if you catch my drift. The 5700 line is already priced to kill Nvidia, and are doing so. The 5800 line is the cash cow that it should be when there is no competition.
That said, those who are saying the 5830 is comparable to a 4870 should give there heads a shake.
That said, those who are saying the 5830 is comparable to a 4870 should give there heads a shake.
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I dunno about $50 across the board. I think the 5870 needs a $75 price drop. 5870 $325 , 5850 $250 , 5830 $200
THat would allow them to slot a 5890 at $400 or $425 because we all know its coming an its why they don't allow companys to build custom pcbs and over clock the cards more than 50mhz. They have a faster card they want to sell.
THat would allow them to slot a 5890 at $400 or $425 because we all know its coming an its why they don't allow companys to build custom pcbs and over clock the cards more than 50mhz. They have a faster card they want to sell.
A
akotlar
Guest
no, you're being too subtle.
A
akotlar
Guest
Price this at 200 and keep the console port. 200 at most. GPUs are basically competing on performance these days, since everything post dx9 can more or less run the same instructions, Turing complete.
Why do a lot of people think the 5830 is priced as an upgrade card for someone that already has a mid-range card from last gen? Is the whole hangup on this issue due to the model number? Have we not learned how irrelevant those are? It's priced as a mid-range card for someone that's building a system from scratch or upgrading from a GF 8800-series or older. In that sense it's priced perfectly for how the market stands right now, as it performs in between the 5770 and the 5850 and it's priced accordingly.
Is the 5850 a much better value? Yes, but the guy that can't afford any more than $250 is still better off w/the 5830 than the 5770 if he's buying a card now for a new system (or as an upgrade from a significantly older card). That's the only real way that Kyle & Brent can judge a card's merit, by how the market stands right now. The vast majority of people aren't gonna hop on Ebay or F/S boards to find a 4890 or a GTX 260, and they can't account for everyone's particular upgrade scenario. Hence the award/rating it received.
That being said, the beauty of [H]ardOCP's real-world gameplay testing is that you can compare it directly to your own experience, if the 5830 isn't gonna let you game at any higher settings than your current card (or at substantially higher settings) then it's clearly not worth your money as it's not a good value, TO YOU. For me, as for many of us, it's a worthless card, not much better than my $155 GTX 260 (which came with two free games), but if I were gonna tell a friend to build a new system from scratch and he could only afford $200-240 towards the GPU, then it's a perfectly solid card.
Basically, stop looking at things from your own little bubble and quit bitching. Four months from now or six months from now or whenever the hell NVidia decides to be relevant again all these prices will shift dramatically and the whole discussion will be moot. At that point the 5830 might actually turn out to be a great value and the 5770 could be overpriced, who knows.
Is the 5850 a much better value? Yes, but the guy that can't afford any more than $250 is still better off w/the 5830 than the 5770 if he's buying a card now for a new system (or as an upgrade from a significantly older card). That's the only real way that Kyle & Brent can judge a card's merit, by how the market stands right now. The vast majority of people aren't gonna hop on Ebay or F/S boards to find a 4890 or a GTX 260, and they can't account for everyone's particular upgrade scenario. Hence the award/rating it received.
That being said, the beauty of [H]ardOCP's real-world gameplay testing is that you can compare it directly to your own experience, if the 5830 isn't gonna let you game at any higher settings than your current card (or at substantially higher settings) then it's clearly not worth your money as it's not a good value, TO YOU. For me, as for many of us, it's a worthless card, not much better than my $155 GTX 260 (which came with two free games), but if I were gonna tell a friend to build a new system from scratch and he could only afford $200-240 towards the GPU, then it's a perfectly solid card.
Basically, stop looking at things from your own little bubble and quit bitching. Four months from now or six months from now or whenever the hell NVidia decides to be relevant again all these prices will shift dramatically and the whole discussion will be moot. At that point the 5830 might actually turn out to be a great value and the 5770 could be overpriced, who knows.
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And maybe THEN this card will be worthy of a Gold Rating, but most sites are handing out awards based on current performance and value. Not future price drops, free games (and the free game was not part of the original equation when they slapped a gold on this card), or driver improvements etc. There is nothing wrong with this card, but the rating it got makes things seem fishy, like an over-enthusiastic review which makes [H]ard OCP loose some credibility. I hate seeing that because I use [H] as the first place I go for a review. Rabid fanbois of both ATI and [H] dont help either.
This is a good sight but I (and apparently a lot of others) think they got this wrong and it does not seem to be in their nature to step back and say "Hmm, lets revisit this and see if maybe we did get a little carried away."
You're missing the point tho, it may not be a viable card for you, but it's still the best $180-260 card out there that's readily available (last gen's cards no longer fitting that description). Obviously you ain't gonna upgrade to it from a GTX 260 that you probably paid less for, but that's besides the point. Yeah a new 4870 1GB is a better value, so is a 5850, what difference would $20 less off the 5830's price make? Not much. The 4870 1GB would still be a better value at $155.
Honestly I've no idea why you're all putting so much stock on whether it's a Gold or Silver or what have you... For someone buying a completely new system it might as well be a Gold card, it fills a price vacuum. Could it be a better value? Yeah, I'm not sure that precludes it from Gold tho, what exactly is the criteria? I don't know, and frankly I could care less.
I read the reviews for the actual gameplay evaluation, the award makes very little difference to me or most reasonable people I'd think. At the end of the day you look at the performance and you decide for yourself based on your own particular situation, [H]'s review still helps me do that regardless of the award or rating (better than anyone else's), so what's the problem?
If anything I'd be complaining that they didn't include more comparison cards in the review, not whether it got a Gold or a Silver or whether it got slammed for not out-performing last-gen's cheaper high end cards (which is painfully obvious to anyone). Having at 'least a 4870 1GB (still readily available) in the review for comparison's sake would help anyone make an informed decision much more than whether the 5830 gets a Gold or a Bronze.
I can understand why they didn't include any previous gen cards, the 4870 1GB is just about the only one that's readily available and hasn't actually gone up in price... But putting in at 'least that would give people a better frame of comparison to what they currently own w/o having to go back and reference the 5770 review, etc.
Honestly I've no idea why you're all putting so much stock on whether it's a Gold or Silver or what have you... For someone buying a completely new system it might as well be a Gold card, it fills a price vacuum. Could it be a better value? Yeah, I'm not sure that precludes it from Gold tho, what exactly is the criteria? I don't know, and frankly I could care less.
I read the reviews for the actual gameplay evaluation, the award makes very little difference to me or most reasonable people I'd think. At the end of the day you look at the performance and you decide for yourself based on your own particular situation, [H]'s review still helps me do that regardless of the award or rating (better than anyone else's), so what's the problem?
If anything I'd be complaining that they didn't include more comparison cards in the review, not whether it got a Gold or a Silver or whether it got slammed for not out-performing last-gen's cheaper high end cards (which is painfully obvious to anyone). Having at 'least a 4870 1GB (still readily available) in the review for comparison's sake would help anyone make an informed decision much more than whether the 5830 gets a Gold or a Bronze.
I can understand why they didn't include any previous gen cards, the 4870 1GB is just about the only one that's readily available and hasn't actually gone up in price... But putting in at 'least that would give people a better frame of comparison to what they currently own w/o having to go back and reference the 5770 review, etc.
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I had high hopes for the 5830. I'm not disappointed by it --yet. The jury is still out.
My current letdown is what everyone else sees --price for performance. I think at around $210, this would be a killer card. At its current pricepoint, I agree --a 5850 is a better buy. Then again, I'm still disappointed that the 5850 hasn't come near its original MSRP other than perhaps the first days of launch.
For everyone talking about the 4890, I think one major point has been glossed over by everyone --power usage. I know, there are a lot of enthusiasts that couldn't give a care, but unless you're gaming every moment, the drop in power at idle is a huge thing. I don't want to pay out the nose to run my equipment. And, I'd rather have a cool system without going to extreme lengths to make it so. I am a little let down at the moment that the 5830 appears to consume more power at idle than the 5850, but that's the way it goes.
I think there's some room left for more performance through the ATI drivers for the 5830. Should that happen, and/or the price drop a little, it will become a pretty interesting card. At the current moment though, once you're spending $240, $300 doesn't seem like that big of a jump.
EDIT: Seeing as the 5830 apparently has a lot of overclocking headroom, I'd like to see how close an overclocked 5830 can get to 5850 performance.
My current letdown is what everyone else sees --price for performance. I think at around $210, this would be a killer card. At its current pricepoint, I agree --a 5850 is a better buy. Then again, I'm still disappointed that the 5850 hasn't come near its original MSRP other than perhaps the first days of launch.
For everyone talking about the 4890, I think one major point has been glossed over by everyone --power usage. I know, there are a lot of enthusiasts that couldn't give a care, but unless you're gaming every moment, the drop in power at idle is a huge thing. I don't want to pay out the nose to run my equipment. And, I'd rather have a cool system without going to extreme lengths to make it so. I am a little let down at the moment that the 5830 appears to consume more power at idle than the 5850, but that's the way it goes.
I think there's some room left for more performance through the ATI drivers for the 5830. Should that happen, and/or the price drop a little, it will become a pretty interesting card. At the current moment though, once you're spending $240, $300 doesn't seem like that big of a jump.
EDIT: Seeing as the 5830 apparently has a lot of overclocking headroom, I'd like to see how close an overclocked 5830 can get to 5850 performance.
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Apples to Apples graphs have been added to the bottom of each game comparison section.
Thanks once again. It did provide some leverage to Brent's response to an earlier post of mine.
Now I do understand where Brent is coming from. The 5830 minimums is significantly closer to 5850 than 5770. However I'm going to compare to other reviews and check out their minimums as well (if I can find some that did max/avg/min).
Edit: It does seem like the minimum frames are indeed at the middle point between 5770 and 5850 much more often than the average frame rates which is an interesting find since average leans towards 5770 more often. It helps support the middle price point a bit better but ideally it should have all minimums and averages perfectly between the 5770 and 5850 for perfect justification of the middle price point which is unrealistic so somewhere closer to 5770's price (by like a 60/40 or 70/30 split compared to 5850) makes more sense which is indeed what Brent mentioned in his review.
I'm not going to dwell on the award since it has little significance to me, but I can agree with the conclusion for the most part now.
Now I do understand where Brent is coming from. The 5830 minimums is significantly closer to 5850 than 5770. However I'm going to compare to other reviews and check out their minimums as well (if I can find some that did max/avg/min).
Edit: It does seem like the minimum frames are indeed at the middle point between 5770 and 5850 much more often than the average frame rates which is an interesting find since average leans towards 5770 more often. It helps support the middle price point a bit better but ideally it should have all minimums and averages perfectly between the 5770 and 5850 for perfect justification of the middle price point which is unrealistic so somewhere closer to 5770's price (by like a 60/40 or 70/30 split compared to 5850) makes more sense which is indeed what Brent mentioned in his review.
I'm not going to dwell on the award since it has little significance to me, but I can agree with the conclusion for the most part now.
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The 5770 costs $150 and performs very close to this $240-$265 video card. The 5850 performs much better and costs $310 vs the $240-$265 card.
The way its priced makes no sense because of its close performance to a card almost $100 cheaper.
It doesn't fill it well. A person can save $90 bucks and get a 5770 and get a card performing very close to the 5830 and put that $90 bucks towards more ram or an ssd both which will have more profound effects on your computers performance than the upgrade between a 5770 and a 5830. Or you can simply spend another $60 and get a 5850 which performs much better.
The reward doesn't make sense for the cost of the card in comparison to the other cards that are avalible. Its like a review for a movie tha talks about how lack luster and middle of the road it is and then hey its an A+ movie rating. Your left scratching your head as to whyI read the reviews for the actual gameplay evaluation, the award makes very little difference to me or most reasonable people I'd think. At the end of the day you look at the performance and you decide for yourself based on your own particular situation, [H]'s review still helps me do that regardless of the award or rating (better than anyone else's), so what's the problem?
It should be obvious that costing $90 more than the 5770 and ggetting slightly better performance is not worth a gold star.If anything I'd be complaining that they didn't include more comparison cards in the review, not whether it got a Gold or a Silver or whether it got slammed for not out-performing last-gen's cheaper high end cards (which is painfully obvious to anyone). Having at 'least a 4870 1GB (still readily available) in the review for comparison's sake would help anyone make an informed decision much more than whether the 5830 gets a Gold or a Bronze.
It doesn't need last gen cards to look bad. It has other ati cards to do that.
@ Brent. ATI released the drivers to enable Eyefinity on Crossfire configurations. Are there any plans on doing a Review that shows the benefits of the different GPU's crossfired and using Eyefinity.
I would be interested in seeing how a 5750, 5770, 5830, and 5850 configuration in Crossfire would perform, compared to the more expensive 5870 and 5970 solutions available that handle crossfire well by themselves.
Basically I'm trying to see how much I need to invest in to handle Eyefinity since Crossfire solutions work now (and did not at launch).
Thanks.
I would be interested in seeing how a 5750, 5770, 5830, and 5850 configuration in Crossfire would perform, compared to the more expensive 5870 and 5970 solutions available that handle crossfire well by themselves.
Basically I'm trying to see how much I need to invest in to handle Eyefinity since Crossfire solutions work now (and did not at launch).
Thanks.
CrimandEvil
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CrimandEvil
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For me, the point is why should I buy a 5830? Based on the performance it's price tag doesn't warrant the $240 price tag for a product that should be $199/$210 at the most. I know I'm making a deal over what is $30/40 but for a card that compares to NV's GTX 260/275 why should I over pay for that level of performance when I could get a 260 for $180?
It's too expensive for what it is. That's the point.
I was really looking forward to this card too, I'm trying to upgrade from my 9600 GSO. It seems like I should just stick to what I was originally thinking about doing: getting a 4850/4860/4870 since the performance of the 5770 and the 5830 are a bit disappointing. Especially the 5830.
TheBlueChanell
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I agree with this statement. Judging by the specs the performance we've seen in all the reviews doesnt add up. It also seems that the driver team is able to squeeze more performance out of the lower-end cards than they are the high-end ones. I'd say by the time we see the cards most mature performance, we'll see a nice price decrease as well. It could be a good upgrade from the 4870 512mb in my other pc if it falls to the $200~ mark.
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I think the 5850 is the best value today.
Still the 5830 with MW2 is a good deal if you want the game.
But I would buy the 5850 personally.
Unless you are willing to buy a 260 on Ebay, "re-certified", or buy from a shop that's run from someone's basement most 260's are in the 200 - 220 range.
Why on earth would you buy a 4850 or 4860 when a 5770 is faster than both and supports Dx11 which the others don't?
http://beyond3d.com/content/news/746
This raises my suspicions as well. One guy, "rops", over at Xbitlabs stated:
The fact that the ROP's of a 5830 is only 50MHz slower than the 16 ROP's of a 4890 does not explain how the 5830 is so much slower than a 4890 in many cases. A 5830 theoretically has ~17% more shader/texel performance than a 4890, and 2.5% more memory bandwidth (assuming that it's 256-bit). Yet it's performing about 6-8% slower than a 4890, and all we can see is that the ROP's are ~6% slower than a 4890. The ROP's would have to already be such a definite bottleneck--extreme enough of a bottleneck that we'd see it badly hampering a 4890 already (which is not the case).
The fact that the 5830 performs *slower* than a 5770 in a few cases (there are a couple games that show this in most of the 8-9 reviews out there), seem to show how there must be another bottleneck rather than just the ROP's. It could be the actual memory performance. Let's suppose that the bandwidth is really 128-bit.. that would make the bandwidth roughly 16% slower than a 5770. With 17% more "core" performance, but 16% slower bandwidth, that would be naturally expected for the 5830 to have only 10% more overall performance than the 5770.
It is even more disappointing to see that a 5830 is not any faster than my 4870 1GB (which can be had for 1/2 the price)--more disappointing than the fact that the 5770 was slower than a 4870 despite a 100MHz increase in clock speed.
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Honestly, i think that the reason we're not seeing this card best the 4890 is a driver issue. In theory the 5830 should match and beat a 4890. Everything we are told has pointed at this. As well, how many of the reviews were using retail cards? not many. We all need to take into consideration that the review models were bastardized models thrown to reviews to say they sent out a product. They do not represent the final product at all what so ever.
Once the 5830 is widely available and retail models are reviewed with proper driver support, then we can try to come to whatever conclusion we feel acceptable.
CrimandEvil
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LMAO Yeah, Newegg is "a shop that's run from someone's basement."
Seriously, you have to stop. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about since a 5770 is about as fast (it's a tad slower actually) then as a 4850.
DX11 or not a 5770 is going to be way too slow to do DX11 later on down the road.
Seriously, you have to stop. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about since a 5770 is about as fast (it's a tad slower actually) then as a 4850.
DX11 or not a 5770 is going to be way too slow to do DX11 later on down the road.
No, the 5750 is about as fast as the 4850, the 5770 is about as fast as the 4870.
overclocking101
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the review shows the 5830 gets basically beaten or at least equal to the 5770 unless im reading something wrong here
You're reading it wrong. The [H] review shows the 5830 solidly between the 5770 and 5850.
LMAO Yeah, Newegg is "a shop that's run from someone's basement."
Did you actually comprehend what I was saying? (Don't answer that it's rhetorical) Newegg charges between 200 - 220. Go check. Jesus you can have a viewpoint but can you please use reality to get there?
Seriously you need to join us on planet Earth. Link a benchmark showing a 5770 losing to 4850.Seriously, you have to stop. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about since a 5770 is about as fast (it's a tad slower actually) then as a 4850.
DX11 or not a 5770 is going to be way too slow to do DX11 later on down the road.
kac77 said:
LMAO Yeah, Newegg is "a shop that's run from someone's basement."
Actually he's kind of right, the only two GTX 260's I'm seeing on Newegg atm are both $215... Kinda crazy that they've gone up so high, that's almost 50% up in 5-6 months.
No clue if you can still find 'em cheaper at other online stores...OTOH there's several 4870 1GB's in the $155 range at Newegg. In effect ATI's own enemy right now is ATI, heh... The only card that really paints the 5830 in a bad light is the 4870 imo. Yeah it's not as big a jump up from a 5770 as some would like, but it's still close enough to the mid-point between it and the 5850, so it's decent.
Seems like a good card. Depending on what bundled games you get may make it worth the money. for most I think they would get more out of a 5850 for just a bit more. personally I would love to see 2GB 5850's and 5870's. The extra Ram is valuable in games like GTAIV
cannondale06
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"The Radeon HD 5830's combination of a $240 price tag and performance that's not much better than a Radeon HD 4870 doesn't add up to a tremendous GPU-buying value, from a sheer price-performance perspective. If you're not concerned about power consumption and a DirectX 11 feature set, you're easily better off with a GeForce GTX 260. "
http://techreport.com/articles.x/18521/10
http://techreport.com/articles.x/18521/10
CrimandEvil
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Which are all cheaper then the 5830. Seriously, the 5830 doesn't have enough going for it to justify it's $240+ price tag for those of us looking to upgrade.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143189
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150398
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127464
cannondale06
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yeah I only paid $190 for my gtx260 at newegg 16 months ago and it came with a game. I would have never guessed it would still be a bang for buck card at this point.
You truly don't need to upgrade the video card in your sig, not at the moment. TF2 and L4D2 run perfectly on it. My system has a GTX 285, just a notch faster than yours, and it rips through pretty much anything at 1920x1200. I'm currently enjoying the Starcraft 2 beta (not the most graphically intense game, but neither is TF2
) and it plays perfect with everything cranked.The only question is how well Bad Company 2 will perform. The BC2 beta wasn't fully optimized, as shown by the numerous optimizations that were pushed out over the last month, and it didn't include the high res textures that will come with the final game. If that game chokes on my machine then I may consider upgrading, but otherwise there's no point. As it stands it ran really darn well after the first patch so I'm in no big rush. You probably won't be either.
Some people thought that 5770's would become just as fast as a 4890 with improved drivers. Never happened. Some thought that 5870's would finally beat a 4870X2 (or even match 2x 4890's) with Catalyst 9.12's. Never happened.
The drivers for the 5xxx series have been maturing for several months now. HardwareCanucks reviewed the 5830 with beta 10.3 drivers. There are not any considerable performance improvements (maybe 1-2% overall) over 10.2's for the 5830.
ATI has not ever released amazing "all-around" driver boost (over say, 8% overall boost) in several years. Nvidia did it a couple of times.. one time a few years ago, a new Forceware revision brought like 15-20% increase across the board in most games (due to better hidden surface removal, etc..).
Expecting a 5830 to suddenly jump by 10% all-around in order to match a 4890 is truly a pipe dream, my friend. It might be a nice pipe dream, but I do not think it's worth the disappointment several months down the road when the harsh reality does not yield those miracle drivers.
Kyle said that he thinks that the 5830 will drop down in prices quite a lot in the coming months. It will be one of the "infamous" cards, like the 8800GTS-320. Remember when that card was set at a whopping $300-something? Few people did buy it, but it quickly lost popularity in no time. I'm sure there have been worse cards that could've been better examples (relatively high power consumption, low performance due to castrated ROP's or bandwidth, etc..).
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After the across-the-board increase in video card prices this past week (or at least, the 5770 on up), I reluctantly gave up power savings as an important feature, and found a new 4890 online for $154 plus shipping.
That's about equal to what I'd currently pay for a 5770, and easily equals the performance of a 5830 (lowest price at the `Egg is currently $249). I may not get DirectX11, but I doubt I'll see considerable benefit, and I do see a benefit from saving eighty bucks, which I could use for another 4GB of RAM or do something else with.
If the 5850 had stayed at its original MSRP, I might have gone that route; I do think it was worth the $259 price point. I just don't think the 5830 is worth what it's currently going for, and even with price drops, it won't match (nor do I expect it to) the price of the 4890.
That's about equal to what I'd currently pay for a 5770, and easily equals the performance of a 5830 (lowest price at the `Egg is currently $249). I may not get DirectX11, but I doubt I'll see considerable benefit, and I do see a benefit from saving eighty bucks, which I could use for another 4GB of RAM or do something else with.
If the 5850 had stayed at its original MSRP, I might have gone that route; I do think it was worth the $259 price point. I just don't think the 5830 is worth what it's currently going for, and even with price drops, it won't match (nor do I expect it to) the price of the 4890.
Umm I'm just going to throw this out there. You can either take it, or throw it right back to me. I bought one and it just came in. It's long, but it will fit. I will play BFBC2 on it as soon as I get both the game and a new power supply. Laugh with me or laugh at me, I stand by it.
Proof!
Proof!