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AMD Zen Performance Preview

meh that memory bandwidth makes me believe that workaround that slows down performance might be real.
 
Yeah I'm thinking the same thing too, hopefully they already have a respin with the bug fix almost ready to go, cause otherwise its going to be a long year for Zen (if these are legit)
 
Wow, those are as bad as the FX memory bandwidth numbers that leaked before it's launch, when we all said "there's no way they could be that bad".
 
gamerk2 said:
Wow, those are as bad as the FX memory bandwidth numbers that leaked before it's launch, when we all said "there's no way they could be that bad".
Click to expand...

Except that those numbers make no sense at all. Basically, it is saying that memory throughput is slower than an SSD which is not the case at all.
 
gamerk2 said:
Wow, those are as bad as the FX memory bandwidth numbers that leaked before it's launch, when we all said "there's no way they could be that bad".
Click to expand...

You never know what they were testing. They may not be full parts. May even be a "hmm, let's throw together a sample to see how a 1.4ghz ultra low power version would run" or something like that.

Engineers run all kind of tests all the time, which means that any of these pre-release "leaks" aren't worth shit.

Just be patient, wait for final silicon, and reserve judgment until then.
 
In terms of validation of final silicon, this should be set in stone 9-12 months before release. To even make a slight changes postpones everything with way more than half a year.

And as said, we had plenty of these excuses before. Because there was no way how the product could end so. Yet it did.

Remember these are 4 dies in an MCM package. Its not going to look good. Its "moar cores" gone bad again.
 
Shintai said:
In terms of validation of final silicon, this should be set in stone 9-12 months before release. To even make a slight changes postpones everything with way more than half a year.

And as said, we had plenty of these excuses before. Because there was no way how the product could end so. Yet it did.

Remember these are 4 dies in an MCM package. Its not going to look good. Its "moar cores" gone bad again.
Click to expand...

Yep. But you don't know if what you are seeing is the major desktop release or a mobile or server part they are trying out for down the road.

Not everything leaks. It requires someone to either intentionally do so (and risk getting fired) or someone to accidentally forget to unchecked the "submit results" check box.

Assuming that this happens only on the top performing part or production equivalent silicon is a bit of a leap.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Zen is going to be the second coming or anything. in fact, the combination of their statements of 40% IPC improvements and rumors of low core clocks coming out of GloFo has me hugely sceptical that it will be a contender for people like us who hang out on the Hardforums. All I am saying is that we really don't know until final silicon droos, and it is silly to write something off based solely on pre-release rumors and leaks which may or may not be for what you think it is for, or may be made up all together.
 
What is worry some is we haven't heard an single thing about high end motherboards server or otherwise, which usually are talked about a quarter or two out of release of the CPUs from the motherboard partners.
 
razor1 said:
What is worry some is we haven't heard an single thing about high end motherboards server or otherwise, which usually are talked about a quarter or two out of release of the CPUs from the motherboard partners.
Click to expand...

Rarely do mainboards get showcased more than a few months from release. Also, as AMD is seen as an 'alternative solution' most mainboard manufacturers wont be in a rush to waste money showcasing their boards.
 
Maybe I should buy a new Rev 3 Asus Sabertooth 990FX motherboard for my FX 9590 out of shear boredom . . . Talking about AMD really bringing excitement - - NOT!
 
Gee, AMD - at least leak a few things that are good (based in reality that is). Being all quiet and launching everything when folks have less or no money is not necessarily a wise action.
 
noko said:
Maybe I should buy a new Rev 3 Asus Sabertooth 990FX motherboard for my FX 9590 out of shear boredom . . . Talking about AMD really bringing excitement - - NOT!
Click to expand...

Personally, I would love to pick up an FX 9590, Sabertooth 990FX Rev3 and one of the those Predator 240 coolers just to have fun. :) Even driving 3 hours to the nearest Microcenter and paying taxes and gas would still be cheaper than newegg in this instance.
 
noko said:
Gee, AMD - at least leak a few things that are good (based in reality that is). Being all quiet and launching everything when folks have less or no money is not necessarily a wise action.
Click to expand...

If they moved it forward by those few months would have they done better ?

From AMD management point of view sooner is better but what if the technical side can't match it do you force it?
Btw I'm not saying that everyone should do AMD a favour and not spend their money during the holiday season , but there is no rule to "spend all of it"?
 
noko said:
Maybe I should buy a new Rev 3 Asus Sabertooth 990FX motherboard for my FX 9590 out of shear boredom . . . Talking about AMD really bringing excitement - - NOT!
Click to expand...

Fuck it, if Zen doesn't pan out, I'm going socket 2011. I'm more than willing to give them a chance... And I'm living with less than stellar performance with this 8370 (As compared to my Skull Trail NUC) to at least give them a chance, and put my money where my mouth is.
 
Ruoh said:
Fuck it, if Zen doesn't pan out, I'm going socket 2011. I'm more than willing to give them a chance... And I'm living with less than stellar performance with this 8370 (As compared to my Skull Trail NUC) to at least give them a chance, and put my money where my mouth is.
Click to expand...

What's your definition of pan out?
 
Even if Zen comes out late December and early next year - what teething pains will there be? Mobo bios updates, OS updates, software updates for programs that do not run (Bulldozer had a number of programs that would not work like Crysis, Dues Ex etc. some got fixed others did not). Then there is availability, what memory works best what does not work? For me realistically June of next year I would have a good feel about Zen and upcoming updates or revisions. So buying a more modern motherboard for the FX 9590 to get USB 3.1, M.2 plus a more mature fixed everything maybe worth while and relatively cheap in the scheme of things.

Now this would be the first for me, ASUS is rather smart on making this motherboard at this point in time.
 
Last edited:
Pieter3dnow said:
If they moved it forward by those few months would have they done better ?

From AMD management point of view sooner is better but what if the technical side can't match it do you force it?
Btw I'm not saying that everyone should do AMD a favour and not spend their money during the holiday season , but there is no rule to "spend all of it"?
Click to expand...
Everyday that their next product is not available is a day of lost sells. So the answer would be a resounding yes in having it ready ASAP. Of course they need to ensure it is properly launched without too many issues for Zen's success as well as AMD's. Looks like they will be able to combine the launch with Vega as well, could get very interesting.
 
I'm still in a phenom II.. I'd love to see some real world info that Ii can actually believe.. I'm all for upgrading my rig.. and I have no problem staying with AMD.. In fact, I'd prefer it. The pricing has me interested.. Please let all this hoo-ha be true.
 
O little core of Zen, how still we see thee lie!
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth the everlasting Light;
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.

For Zen is born of AMD, and gathered all above,
While Intel sleeps, the engineers keep their watch of wondering love.
O morning stars together, proclaim the holy IPC.
And praises sing to Zen the King, and speed to man on earth.

How silently, how silently, the wondrous Gift is giv’n;
So God imparts to Zen's big heart the blessings of His Heav’n.
No ear may hear its coming, but in this world of stagnant work,
Where meek souls will receive Him still, the dear Zen enters in.
 
Shintai said:
In terms of validation of final silicon, this should be set in stone 9-12 months before release. To even make a slight changes postpones everything with way more than half a year.

And as said, we had plenty of these excuses before. Because there was no way how the product could end so. Yet it did.

Remember these are 4 dies in an MCM package. Its not going to look good. Its "moar cores" gone bad again.
Click to expand...

Nope, it is no "moar cores" gone bad again and you also have no proof of that, which is quite clear. AMD is doing exactly what they need to do, no more and no less. Would I like more information? YES! Will I die if I do not? NO! In fact, if real information was released that showed AMD doing better than expected, many here would try to trump up negative press about it anyways.
 
noko said:
Hmmm, maybe I should not buy another 990FX motherboard. The price does seem rather low or very aggressive, not sure what gives but not arguing if it OC to 4ghz+ and is stable. Still if it competes with Intel's 6850 that will really make things interesting.
Click to expand...

If it competes with broadwell in performance and costs 300$ I'm going to eat a hat (as usual) but also that would entail a price war. Is a price war likely at this point? It's not like Intel will have any trouble dropping prices dramatically
 
Ieldra said:
If it competes with broadwell in performance and costs 300$ I'm going to eat a hat (as usual) but also that would entail a price war. Is a price war likely at this point? It's not like Intel will have any trouble dropping prices dramatically
Click to expand...
Really a lot of speculation and not sure how true or what the hell is the motivation to sell it that cheap and have that kind of performance. Are they going to be made in China or what? Glo-Flo will be able to keep up the pace to supply the demand? Or AMD will charge $300 and they will sell for $600 to $900 due to no supply? That is if they have similar performance to Intels stuff (now that is likely with AMD continue to lose money).
 
Ieldra said:
O little core of Zen, how still we see thee lie!
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth the everlasting Light;
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.

For Zen is born of AMD, and gathered all above,
While Intel sleeps, the engineers keep their watch of wondering love.
O morning stars together, proclaim the holy IPC.
And praises sing to Zen the King, and speed to man on earth.

How silently, how silently, the wondrous Gift is giv’n;
So God imparts to Zen's big heart the blessings of His Heav’n.
No ear may hear its coming, but in this world of stagnant work,
Where meek souls will receive Him still, the dear Zen enters in.
Click to expand...

There are some of us here, who will find you, and slap you with a fish for postings like that.
 
Spirit_Retro said:
There are some of us here, who will find you, and slap you with a fish for postings like that.
Click to expand...
Where enthusiasts pure and happy pray to the blessed uarch,
Where OCing cries out to Thee, Son of the foundry mild;
Where efficiency stands watching and large cache holds wide the door,
The dark night wakes, the glory breaks, and Zen launch comes once more.

O holy Child of GloFo, descend to us, we pray;
Cast out our sin, and enter in, be born in us today.
We hear the Zenful angels the great glad tidings tell;
O come to us, abide with us, oh killer of Intel!
 
noko said:
Really a lot of speculation and not sure how true or what the hell is the motivation to sell it that cheap and have that kind of performance. Are they going to be made in China or what? Glo-Flo will be able to keep up the pace to supply the demand? Or AMD will charge $300 and they will sell for $600 to $900 due to no supply? That is if they have similar performance to Intels stuff (now that is likely with AMD continue to lose money).
Click to expand...


Pricing of manufacturing of these kinda of parts, doesn't matter if its in China or the US most of it is automated. The steps of designing and testing the chip can be done anywhere in the world.

Just like how AMD and nV work design is done in one of their many design groups around the world, they have their parts made at any fabs they want but testing is done in India, cheaper for them, to do it there. Intel can be doing this too, fabs are here in the US but that doesn't mean they are designing and testing here in the US (although I think design is done here in the US, not sure about testing). But even if Intel is doing everything here in the US, AMD being fabless, off sets the cost (GF needs to make a profit too)
 
Ieldra said:
If it competes with broadwell in performance and costs 300$ I'm going to eat a hat (as usual) but also that would entail a price war. Is a price war likely at this point? It's not like Intel will have any trouble dropping prices dramatically
Click to expand...

Maybe its the Broadwell i7 5775C ;)

Lisa Su said AMD wouldn't want to be the "cheap company". 200-300$ also screams its nowhere near Intel HEDT performance. But rather is going to fight in LGA1151 segment with "moar cores" and a lot slower ST performance. Just as the FX.
 
Shintai said:
Maybe its the Broadwell i7 5775C ;)

Lisa Su said AMD wouldn't want to be the "cheap company". 200-300$ also screams its nowhere near Intel HEDT performance. But rather is going to fight in LGA1151 segment with "moar cores" and a lot slower ST performance. Just as the FX.
Click to expand...

Which I am not surprised you would claim yet, without proof as usual. Hell, I have not seen any proof of the price of these chips and you keep claiming it will cost a lot more than this too. LOL

Edit: Cue long drawn out post that says a lot of absolutely nothing. :D
 
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ManofGod said:
Which I am not surprised you would claim yet, without proof as usual. Hell, I have not seen any proof of the price of these chips and you keep claiming it will cost a lot more than this too. LOL

Edit: Cue long drawn out post that says a lot of absolutely nothing. :D
Click to expand...


Going into a price war when products are competitive from a performance/feature/power perspective. We know both companies are on 14nm, which are fairly equal (if anything Intel has an advantage but for this discussion lets ignore that).

Just say you have a product that is equal to another product done by someone that is a monopoly and they have set the price (price isn't elastic in a monopoly). Would you cut your price down when you know full well the competitor will match you?


MonopolyPower3-Wiki.JPG


This is what the current CPU marketplace looks like (not numbers just over all view)

price elasticity of demand, is none existent in a monopoly which the CPU market is virtually a monopoly.

Now a new competitor (virtually AMD is a new competitor) would take advantage of this and price just under or equal to the monopoly's products, that would maximize their profits even for a short amount of time and let the monopoly start the price war.

The other way to look at it is, if AMD starts the price war, they can gain marketshare quickly, but that doesn't work because the first thing any company or person buying the monopoly's product will ask the monopoly "hey can you match their price?" All of this is because the products are EQAUL.

How many times have you got to Best Buy and pulled out your phone and showed the sales man, look they are selling this product you have for this much less, if you can beat the price I'll get it here?

Both of these situations drops the price of the goods that are viaing for our money and the monopolistic price will come down automatically to the competitive price, and both of these situations don't favor the newcomer in making any ground. But one of them has an advantage of the newcomer in possibly making more money up front.

Now lets flip this around and look at what happened with Athon generations. AMD had an undeniable advantage in performance and power usage. This forced Intel to do shady tactics and down right cheat AMD out of the market. Even with that going on AMD was able to gain marketshare (just not as fast or as much as they should have gained). With out that advantage this time around, we can't expect that to happen, not only that, we can't even expect them to gain much of anything at all in a saturated and mature marketplace. Because

A) there are no new consumers
B) there are no growing markets
C) there are no advantages to switching over to the new product

To A) So AMD has to do is steal Intel's customers, which is not easy to do in this market
To B) Create a niche because there is something special about their product (which we know there is nothing special, what they can do Intel processors can too.
To C) The increased cost of OEM's, server providers etc need to be offset by the hardware they use or increase in consumers buying those products need to make the purchasing of the new product viable. Which points to A, the market already has its set consumers so that doesn't work.
 
Last edited:
Ieldra said:
Where enthusiasts pure and happy pray to the blessed uarch,
Where OCing cries out to Thee, Son of the foundry mild;
Where efficiency stands watching and large cache holds wide the door,
The dark night wakes, the glory breaks, and Zen launch comes once more.

O holy Child of GloFo, descend to us, we pray;
Cast out our sin, and enter in, be born in us today.
We hear the Zenful angels the great glad tidings tell;
O come to us, abide with us, oh killer of Intel!
Click to expand...

We do not forgive... we do not forget... expect us.
 
razor1 said:
Going into a price war when products are competitive from a performance/feature/power perspective. We know both companies are on 14nm, which are fairly equal (if anything Intel has an advantage but for this discussion lets ignore that).

Just say you have a product that is equal to another product done by someone that is a monopoly and they have set the price (price isn't elastic in a monopoly). Would you cut your price down when you know full well the competitor will match you?


MonopolyPower3-Wiki.JPG


This is what the current CPU marketplace looks like (not numbers just over all view)

price elasticity of demand, is none existent in a monopoly which the CPU market is virtually a monopoly.

Now a new competitor (virtually AMD is a new competitor) would take advantage of this and price just under or equal to the monopoly's products, that would maximize their profits even for a short amount of time and let the monopoly start the price war.

The other way to look at it is, if AMD starts the price war, they can gain marketshare quickly, but that doesn't work because the first thing any company or person buying the monopoly's product will ask the monopoly "hey can you match their price?" All of this is because the products are EQAUL.

How many times have you got to Best Buy and pulled out your phone and showed the sales man, look they are selling this product you have for this much less, if you can beat the price I'll get it here?

Both of these situations drops the price of the goods that are viaing for our money and the monopolistic price will come down automatically to the competitive price, and both of these situations don't favor the newcomer in making any ground. But one of them has an advantage of the newcomer in possibly making more money up front.

Now lets flip this around and look at what happened with Athon generations. AMD had an undeniable advantage in performance and power usage. This forced Intel to do shady tactics and down right cheat AMD out of the market. Even with that going on AMD was able to gain marketshare (just not as fast or as much as they should have gained). With out that advantage this time around, we can't expect that to happen, not only that, we can't even expect them to gain much of anything at all in a saturated and mature marketplace. Because

A) there are no new consumers
B) there are no growing markets
C) there are no advantages to switching over to the new product

To A) So AMD has to do is steal Intel's customers, which is not easy to do in this market
To B) Create a niche because there is something special about their product (which we know there is nothing special, what they can do Intel processors can too.
To C) The increased cost of OEM's, server providers etc need to be offset by the hardware they use or increase in consumers buying those products need to make the purchasing of the new product viable. Which points to A, the market already has its set consumers so that doesn't work.
Click to expand...


Good post. I for one hope they charge as much as the market lets them get away with for Zen. God knows they need the revenue, and we all benefit from having them around in the marketplace.

Hoping for a low priced product so you can get a great deal on your next build is very shortsighted.
 
if I could get a chip that offered 75-80% of the performance at 30% of the price($300 vs $1000 since that's what's being thrown around) and was a good improvement over the FX line i'd be very happy. but as of right now we have to wait till they hit the street to see what they really do and are worth. what if they actually do come close at stock, are cheaper AND oc good?! what if what if what if...
 
pendragon1 said:
if I could get a chip that offered 75-80% of the performance at 30% of the price($300 vs $1000 since that's what's being thrown around) and was a good improvement over the FX line i'd be very happy. but as of right now we have to wait till they hit the street to see what they really do and are worth. what if they actually do come close at stock, are cheaper AND oc good?! what if what if what if...
Click to expand...

I have similar thoughts.

To me it doesn't have to be a skylake/kabylake/broadwell killer, as long as it can at least beat my SandyBridge-E overclocked to overclocked, without any other significant drawbacks. (I won't be willing to give up many of my 40 PCIe lanes, for instance.)
 
Ieldra said:
Where enthusiasts pure and happy pray to the blessed uarch,
Where OCing cries out to Thee, Son of the foundry mild;
Where efficiency stands watching and large cache holds wide the door,
The dark night wakes, the glory breaks, and Zen launch comes once more.

O holy Child of GloFo, descend to us, we pray;
Cast out our sin, and enter in, be born in us today.
We hear the Zenful angels the great glad tidings tell;
O come to us, abide with us, oh killer of Intel!
Click to expand...
:ROFLMAO: You have got to be fun when drunk to no end. Good stuff.
 
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