AMD & NVIDIA GPU VR Performance: Island 359 @ [H]

FrgMstr

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AMD & NVIDIA GPU VR Performance: Island 359 - When was the last time you got lost in the jungle while hunting dinosaurs? We got lost for a little over an hour last week the day that Island 359™ went live on the Steam Store. The Island 359™ has the chops to even be able to bring our TITAN X to its knees should you wish to turn up the IQ, and it can be as beautiful as it is scary.
 
Very cool title, needs a bit more content but worth $20 for sure.

AMD...I am disappoint.
 
AMD getting its ass kicked again. WTF is Liquid VR anyway?

i still remember how some people said Liquid VR will make AMD the absolute better choice for VR. in forums many people asking for VR they will present Liquid VR as a proof as why you must choose AMD hardware for VR. and when VR headsets start rolling out to the market suddenly i haven't heard much about Liquid VR being discussed anymore. back then i just advice people to wait until HMD device hit the market and being test by independent reviewer.
 
AMD getting its ass kicked again. WTF is Liquid VR anyway?

PR slides, viral marketing and BS.

So 7 VR in a row, 7 times with a complete Nvidia VR dominance and the ability to do VR for AMD is a more a question mark.
 
AMD is really lacking once again. Surely they must test VR in house and must come up with the same shitty performance barriers that are seen here time and again, yet have the gall to come out as a "VR platform" which is basically false advertising!

I was leaning towards an RX 480 for a refresh, but given the poor performance time and again, I'm starting to reconsider (unless I restrict myself to Vulkan only games!)
 
The more and more I see these VR reviews, and the more and more I consider that the next GPU I'm going to get will stick around for ~5 years, the more and more I lean towards the 1070 over 1060 or 480.

Maybe MSRP will be attainable at non-founder prices for AIB's come Black Friday/Xmas...

Thanks, [H]!
 
Damn good review...thanks for putting in the time and effort, [H].

This certainly reinforces my decision to hold on to my 980Ti until 1080Ti or Volta (1170/1180/1180Ti???) emerge.
 
PR slides, viral marketing and BS.

So 7 VR in a row, 7 times with a complete Nvidia VR dominance and the ability to do VR for AMD is a more a question mark.

Yeah. I have to say I'm getting really tired of being lied to by AMD's marketing. I'm not really a fan of supporting the 800 lb. gorillas because I want to support competition in the market and the AMD parts that are in my rig offered the most bang for the buck at the time of purchase. However, I like being lied to even less.
 
What game engine is being used on this game? I think what's needed are DX12 or VULKAN VR Games to get around AMD's DX11 issue.
 
The more and more I see these VR reviews, and the more and more I consider that the next GPU I'm going to get will stick around for ~5 years, the more and more I lean towards the 1070 over 1060 or 480.

Maybe MSRP will be attainable at non-founder prices for AIB's come Black Friday/Xmas...

Thanks, [H]!

FRY in Sunnyvale CA had basically a million 1070's in stock, and some are priced near 390$ (open box - easily enough to test and return if there's an issue) and would probably be the cheapest way to get one locally.
 
WTF AMD?!?!?!

I don't understand how the VR community allows AMD to tout cheap premium VR when the performance doesn't back it up.

Like Roy's tweet from today:


Sure you can build a VR PC that is not "pricey," if you want to puke all over your floor after stutters give you motion sickness. It isn't right that AMD is attempting to sell an experience that right now is very horsepower driven.

It will lead to people thinking VR sucks and could easily cause a slow down in VR software dev.

Low end cards from VR might be possible in a few years but not now. Especially when games advance and if VR HMD's get a bump in resolution.
 
Low end cards from VR might be possible in a few years but not now. Especially when games advance and if VR HMD's get a bump in resolution.

Probably not even then as I imagine HMD resolution will go up, like you said, and even more power will be required. For some games even now you need a top-end card to stay stable at 90 FPS, and that's at current resolutions.
 
What game engine is being used on this game? I think what's needed are DX12 or VULKAN VR Games to get around AMD's DX11 issue.

Maybe if we got all the planets to align it would help AMD too. Honestly, how many things have to go right so that AMD can even put in a decent showing against nVidia at this point?

Look, I used to have strictly AMD cards in this house for a decade. I'm done making excuses for them. They need to re-earn my trust to get the nod for the next gaming rig I build.
 
What game engine is being used on this game? I think what's needed are DX12 or VULKAN VR Games to get around AMD's DX11 issue.

People can only bench and use titles on the market right now. This are 7 VR reviews with multiple game engines and AMD is getting roasted in all of them. Maybe AMD 480 will catch up in 18 months, however Nvidia won't just be laying down while that happens. VR is very much in a position to be sold and enjoyed now, and AMD is only offering a "Premium" VR experience.

AMD needs a white knight (like VR Ashes of the Singularity) to come along and bail them out from the current embarrassment and give people some hope.
 
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I honestly can't believe they get away with their "Premium VR" bullshit. Everytime one of these reviews come out and the game runs like total shit people start blaming the engine too. I don't get that. These are the games that are out right now and people are currently playing. It doesn't matter what engine they used to run the game, AMD should be able to perform better in all of them. Nvidia doesn't seem to have an issue with it. Their cards might not provide a billion FPS in Vulkan or some DX12 games but they are all still very playable. It seems every game in VR that isn't created a specific way with a specific engine is running so poorly it's pretty much unplayable on AMD hardware. Yet they still claim a "Premium VR experience?" Give me a break.
 
I honestly can't believe they get away with their "Premium VR" bullshit. Everytime one of these reviews come out and the game runs like total shit people start blaming the engine too. I don't get that. These are the games that are out right now and people are currently playing. It doesn't matter what engine they used to run the game, AMD should be able to perform better in all of them. Nvidia doesn't seem to have an issue with it. Their cards might not provide a billion FPS in Vulkan or some DX12 games but they are all still very playable. It seems every game in VR that isn't created a specific way with a specific engine is running so poorly it's pretty much unplayable on AMD hardware. Yet they still claim a "Premium VR experience?" Give me a break.

AMD has sometimes been a bit behind on frame times (I think Tech Report did a lot of content on this). Unfortunately for AMD, VR is a place where quick frame times are critical for delivering the best experience.
 
Going back over what has actually been covered, I don't think AMD is dropping the ball too much on the VR side. Over the 7 reviews here, only two are actually completed games. One AMD never really spent the time on with the DX11 version, so I'd expect them to ignore the VR version. The other, in the words of [H] "the VR gaming experience with the HTC Vive was same across all our high end GPUs...Even when we look at our RX 480 and GTX 1060 performance at the High IQ preset the performance of both is extremely solid as well. The RX 480 starts to slip into Reprojection just a bit, but not enough to truly impact our experience"

The other 5 are either tech demos or early access with no estimated release dates. I dunno. Maybe this is just something to fill in the time because the regular title release schedule is so dry while NV has crushed the high end product stack and AMD has no releases for months. Either way, I don't see AMD as needing to play catch up right now for a couple early access games while the driver team is probably trying to be *really really sure* that they include that all important voltage mod in the initial Vega drivers.
 
What game engine is being used on this game? I think what's needed are DX12 or VULKAN VR Games to get around AMD's DX11 issue.
UE4. I know of nothing close to release that is Vulkan or DX12 currently. Surely that will change, but it
 
This to me was the best VR review, you were able to put me inside of the game or gave me a sense of the experience.

Once again AMD looks to be way far away from being on top of VR this day. I recommend AMD to really tap into these early access games and help the development process vice sitting on the side lines. Obviously AMD tools are not helping the developers with AMD hardware.

I wonder how many of these early access games are also exploring or developing for Multi-GPU VR? For this game it just begs for two GPU's working together to fully immerse the player.
 
You can tell there is a lot of work to be done by the devs on optimization here because most of the cards aren't in reprojection 100% of the time. That's the first indicator they don't know what they're doing so it's difficult to gauge actual performance. Until DX12/Vulkan VR titles hit there aren't really any VR games.
 
Well the wave of PS4 VR games should hit this Winter, we will see how that goes and if that experience will translate into something meaningful for AMD VR on the PC.
 
Finding a way to benchmark them could be interesting as it could be rather subjective. Proper reprojection should involve async shading where you have a <5ms frame time for the reprojection tied to the refresh rate.
 
I wouldn't say the entire industry is standardizing on DX11 for VR.
I would not even begin to say that either.

My expectation of VR is that each vendor is displaying ~5ms frametimes with very little variability across all cards.
LOL! Your expectations and reality are going to be greatly opposed.
 
Hey Kyle, great to see a lot of VR benchmarks coming out from you here at [H]. I'm not sure if you're interested in adding another metric to your reviews, but SteamVR games can render at different resolutions. SteamVR automatically adds a 1.4x render output resolution modifier the playspace environment and whatever games accept it as a configurable option.
http:// https://www.reddit.com/r/Vi...pth_analysis_of_rendertargetmultiplier_using/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4qn1kp/indepth_analysis_of_rendertargetmultiplier_using/

From the thread, Brookhaven plays at the Vive resolution of 2160x1200, but Hover Junkers plays at a resolution of 3186x1683.
 
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Going back over what has actually been covered, I don't think AMD is dropping the ball too much on the VR side. Over the 7 reviews here, only two are actually completed games. One AMD never really spent the time on with the DX11 version, so I'd expect them to ignore the VR version. The other, in the words of [H] "the VR gaming experience with the HTC Vive was same across all our high end GPUs...Even when we look at our RX 480 and GTX 1060 performance at the High IQ preset the performance of both is extremely solid as well. The RX 480 starts to slip into Reprojection just a bit, but not enough to truly impact our experience"

The other 5 are either tech demos or early access with no estimated release dates. I dunno. Maybe this is just something to fill in the time because the regular title release schedule is so dry while NV has crushed the high end product stack and AMD has no releases for months. Either way, I don't see AMD as needing to play catch up right now for a couple early access games while the driver team is probably trying to be *really really sure* that they include that all important voltage mod in the initial Vega drivers.

nvidia show good performance in all of them early access or not. if nvidia can do that then why AMD can't? i just hope AMD did not repeat their old mistakes where most of their attention and focus is only on triple A stuff.
 
Obviously this looks bad for AMD, but honestly, until VR becomes mainstream, as in ...I have one ;), well basically cheap enough for everyone, these results only matter to the few people who are either buying or have bought a HMD for their pc.
Not to say hats off to Nvidia, but they where kicking AMDs ass in DX11 already, so VR -DX11 should be no different.
Still a new niche market. Not sure why AMD would make a statement "premium VR experience" and not have VR content to back that up.
I'm in no hurry to build my VR rig, cause things are just too expensive and there's not enough choices out there yet, but i am getting itchy for something.....
 
You can tell there is a lot of work to be done by the devs on optimization here because most of the cards aren't in reprojection 100% of the time. That's the first indicator they don't know what they're doing so it's difficult to gauge actual performance. Until DX12/Vulkan VR titles hit there aren't really any VR games.

You seem to be confusing oculus' runtime and steamvr.

Steamvr does not support asynchronous reprojection so no steamvr game will have it. On oculus, both AMD and Nvidia cards support async reprojection by default, the devs don't do anything.. Reprojection on steamvr is when the game can't maintain 90fps, it drops to 45fps and uses interleaved reprojection. With SteamVR you want to be in reprojection 0% of the time.

Valve stencils out the regions of the frame that are not visible through the lenses to boost performance. This approach is incompatible with oculus-style reprojection because you need a "buffer" of pixels outside the visible area to pull in. Otherwise you will be pulling in blackness. This is also probably why steamvr doesn't support synchronous reprojection either.

Performance is the responsibility of devs and Nvidia/AMD, but reprojection is out of their hands.
 
I wouldn't say the entire industry is standardizing on DX11 for VR. More like there are some early adopters using it with some significant limitations and lacking quality. Proper VR in my mind involves reprojection for the lowest possible input lag. That's only feasible with some APIs or possibly the VR toolkits from each vendor to hack in the needed functionality. My expectation of VR is that each vendor is displaying ~5ms frametimes with very little variability across all cards. To be more specific, they need to constantly be reprojecting as fast as possible and tied to the refresh rate of the headset. It's something both AMD and Nvidia should be able to do, but requires an async queue.

"Reprojecting as fast as possible" is stupid because reprojection *is* the fastest possible action that can be done assuming frames do not get delivered in time for the 90fps (11ms). Asynchronous Timewarp performs a similar role. And yes, they *are* being done to ensure that there is frame data for every headset refresh to combat motion sickness.

That said, reprojection and AT is always a safety net feature, not the 'main event' because it introduces artifacts and some distortion. You *want* to stay out of reprojection as much as possible for the best image quality and latency.
 
Probably not even then as I imagine HMD resolution will go up, like you said, and even more power will be required. For some games even now you need a top-end card to stay stable at 90 FPS, and that's at current resolutions.

Completely agree! HMD res has to go up.

Until DX12/Vulkan VR titles hit there aren't really any VR games.

ROFL! That has to be the silliest thing I have ever read on the VR forums.

Guess DCS World, War Thunder, ED, or anything on Steam's list aren't real VR games? Shame cause they work great on my VR HMD. Not to mention the upcoming Fallout 4 VR or EVE.

Good to know my Vive is useless for the next year or two until devs move to DX12 or Vulkan.
 
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On oculus, both AMD and Nvidia cards support async reprojection by default, the devs don't do anything.
So if the devs want to perform temporal AA to avoid shader aliasing reprojection is a bit of a repeat of the step just taken. A knowledgeable dev should be able to do a more performant job than leaving it up to the SDK.

Steamvr does not support asynchronous reprojection so no steamvr game will have it. On oculus, both AMD and Nvidia cards support async reprojection by default, the devs don't do anything.. Reprojection on steamvr is when the game can't maintain 90fps, it drops to 45fps and uses interleaved reprojection. With SteamVR you want to be in reprojection 0% of the time.
I guess I haven't checked specifically, but I'd have to imagine they have some implementation for ATW. It begs the question of why use 45fps and even intervals for async operation. If you are already adjusting for time and motion, a little bit more shouldn't be that big of a deal. That framerate should be flexible with lower rates having more artifacts.

Valve stencils out the regions of the frame that are not visible through the lenses to boost performance. This approach is incompatible with oculus-style reprojection because you need a "buffer" of pixels outside the visible area to pull in. Otherwise you will be pulling in blackness. This is also probably why steamvr doesn't support synchronous reprojection either.
With foveated rendering I'm not sure how helpful that stenciling would be. The console approach of scaling resolution or compositing tiles would seem a far better approach than a fixed resolution and stencil. Do the VR kits even support DX12/Vulkan paths yet or are we arguing over DX11/OGL where these techniques require IHV workarounds? Last I checked the async behavior was only available through vendor libraries for the kits as DX12/Vulkan were lacking to provide it more directly.

"Reprojecting as fast as possible" is stupid because reprojection *is* the fastest possible action that can be done assuming frames do not get delivered in time for the 90fps (11ms). Asynchronous Timewarp performs a similar role. And yes, they *are* being done to ensure that there is frame data for every headset refresh to combat motion sickness.
That's the point of reprojecting quickly. It wouldn't be as fast as possible as much as being as close as possible to being displayed. So if it took 2ms to reproject, schedule it 3ms prior to presenting a frame to keep latency low. Even a minor reprojection should be more accurate than a direct rendering with higher frametime. If the frame can be rendered in a few ms direct is fine, but if reprojection is sufficient to hide a lower framerate that opens up additional performance. Point being the dev could do a better job with that reprojection than just handing off a frame to the sdk. At the very least you could remove a memcpy from the chain.

That said, reprojection and AT is always a safety net feature, not the 'main event' because it introduces artifacts and some distortion. You *want* to stay out of reprojection as much as possible for the best image quality and latency.
Safety net sure, but I'd think reprojecting frequently to get an effective 4ms frame would be superior to >14ms reprojected to 14ms or even just less than 14ms. I'm sure future kits could push those refresh rates a bit. Even at 0ms there will still be a delay on the display.

Guess DCS World, War Thunder, E, or anything on Steam's list aren't real VR games?
I don't really consider the current batch of "VR" games much more than cheap arcade games. Sure better examples are coming, but they are still hacking together the tools that inherently come with DX12/Vulkan. We are talking about ATW everywhere with APIs that don't currently support the functionality directly.
 
That's the point of reprojecting quickly. It wouldn't be as fast as possible as much as being as close as possible to being displayed. So if it took 2ms to reproject, schedule it 3ms prior to presenting a frame to keep latency low. Even a minor reprojection should be more accurate than a direct rendering with higher frametime. If the frame can be rendered in a few ms direct is fine, but if reprojection is sufficient to hide a lower framerate that opens up additional performance. Point being the dev could do a better job with that reprojection than just handing off a frame to the sdk. At the very least you could remove a memcpy from the chain.

You keep saying reprojection is the end-all - it is not. If a system can render perfectly without reprojection due to sub-11ms frametimes, then why would an artist compromise their vision just so 'additional' performance can be gained (when it is not needed)? That's the point of an adaptive system - catch the moments that tech fails, while still providing the maximum quality whenever performance is available.


I guess I haven't checked specifically, but I'd have to imagine they have some implementation for ATW. It begs the question of why use 45fps and even intervals for async operation. If you are already adjusting for time and motion, a little bit more shouldn't be that big of a deal. That framerate should be flexible with lower rates having more artifacts.

'Async' operation? You seem to forget that displays requires syncing, especially in VR. You render at refresh, or you drop to intervals - and you don't want to go 45hz unless you want to make someone sick, but sometimes it has to happen due to the absolutely dynamic and time-sensitive nature of the operation. So what does reprojection do? Generates intermediate frames to make up for the missing 45hz. Do you *want* the system generating fake frames at all times?

Even Oculus admits that despite the advantages of ATW, you still do not want to use it unless you absolutely need to, because while it is a great approach to combating framedrops, it still compromises the image a lot compared to rendering perfectly.
 
Thank you for these reviews!

It's pretty hard to find real world content like this for VR right now.
 
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