Amazon CEO Andy Jassy threatens employees to return to office or "things are probably not going to work out for you"

Zarathustra[H] said:
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I tend to think the best approach is the hybrid approach. Two or three days a week in the office, and the rest from home. If gives you the ability to have creative face to face meetings in person, AND go home and focus on more focused tasks. Arranging it right can be a little challenging though. In order for everytone to collaborate in person, you'd have to have everyone is in office days be the same, but if you do, then you can't save as much on office space as the office will either be empty or full and never in between.
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I really am a fan of hybrid. For me most of my work is done on a pc drawing schematics and pcb layout and component research. This can be done anywhere. When troubleshooting products or prototyping this kind of work "can" be done in my home workshop but it does just go smoother if i go into the office.

Unfortunately our CEO doesnt really like anything with working from home so we are all in the office, save a few that get hybrid to help with child care (which seems weird because those would be the ones less likely to dedicated 100% work time but anyways). Our 'work culture' is mostly an office with short cubical walls and silence. Most of us eat at our desk so we can keep working. Even our current office space many desks are empty mostly due to having room for growth and some are used for interns which we dont have at the moment.

So the work culture for me is a quiet room listening to the sound of keyboards and mouse clicks (and our loud 3d printer) unless i put on headphones and tune it all out.

As i write this someone comes over with a question and i was able to pull up a schematic real quick and point out the answer, so there are plenty of cases where in person is more efficient. I really just want to be comfy when i work haha
 
Darunion said:
I really am a fan of hybrid. For me most of my work is done on a pc drawing schematics and pcb layout and component research. This can be done anywhere. When troubleshooting products or prototyping this kind of work "can" be done in my home workshop but it does just go smoother if i go into the office.
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You ever do schematic/layout/routing with stuff like DDR, FPGA SoCs, a lot of HDI features, etc?
 
I do hybrid, they don't need me in the office most of the time. Even when I'm in the office if I'm pair programming with someone it's over discord for the most part. We do some software architecture stuff together or brain storm together but for the most part there's no reason to go in. I'm more productive at home because no one is around me talking. Threating people to come back is about control, it's not about productivity. I'll work anywhere that doesn't take multiple hours out of my day for a pointless commute.
 
Decko87 said:
I do hybrid, they don't need me in the office most of the time. Even when I'm in the office if I'm pair programming with someone it's over discord for the most part. We do some software architecture stuff together or brain storm together but for the most part there's no reason to go in. I'm more productive at home because no one is around me talking. Threating people to come back is about control, it's not about productivity. I'll work anywhere that doesn't take multiple hours out of my day for a pointless commute.
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It’s about real estate pricing and hiding layoffs as people quitting. If the back to the office mandates were company wise that’s one thing but more than not they are very targeted.
 
Lakados said:
It’s about real estate pricing and hiding layoffs as people quitting.
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Yeah I think it's about that too, but there's no doubt in my mind they want to discipline labor. That real estate guy said we needed a rise in unemployment by 40-50 percent. Bosses want their boot on your throat.
 
The majority of companies are renting - especailly non-megacorps, and I don't know many smaller businesses that have more than 3-5 year lease. That means by this point, a significant number of companies COULD have chosen to go full WFH and saved tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands on a lease, but they didn't.

CEOs bringing people back to work USUALLY has nothing to do with real estate, as their balance sheets would look way better if they just ditched the office. I renewed my 3 year lease in 2021 and could have easily gotten rid of it and eliminated a six figure liability from my balance sheet, but I determined I would make more money overall with the office. I don't regret it.
 
How much of this is HR dept related? I would think that a company with mostly WFH staff would not require as much HR support. Remember HR's "second law" is to protect itself, its bureaucracy and its budget.
 
kindasmart said:
How much of this is HR dept related? I would think that a company with mostly WFH staff would not require as much HR support. Remember HR's "second law" is to protect itself, its bureaucracy and its budget.
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I didn't see much of a difference either way. Someone still has to deal with hiring & firing logistics, insurance, workers comp, being the 3rd party present on contentious performance reviews, document organization, etc. HR mediating employee disputes is a minority of what they do, and employees can find plenty of ways to be assholes via zoom.
 
If anything, WFH puts more workload on HR orgs, as they have to navigate potential tax (etc.) situations in unexpected locations now as well, among other specifics.
 
All the reasoning, justifications and excuses mean noting if they say back to the office or else. Then you have two choices. What-ifs and could-bes by folks not effected by this decision is just talk.
 
I never understood the people who say "I love going to the office" in townhalls. I assume they're hight extroverts. Or saying what leadership wants to hear.
 
fprish said:
I never understood the people who say "I love going to the office" in townhalls. I assume they're hight extroverts. Or saying what leadership wants to hear.
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I think that is part of it. The brown nosing and hoping it results in a promotion is strong.

There are also some people who hate their home lives. They find dealing with their nagging wives and petulant children to be so stressful and unpleasant that the office is relaxing to them, and they can't wait to leave the house to go to work.

They will of course never say this out loud (except to people they really trust) for fear of sounding like a psychopath, but it is true.
 
I wouldn't say I "love" going to the office but my job, and the jobs of those who work on my projects, pretty much require being at the office. When people do work from home they're operating at about 75% of capacity because they need to rely on people at the office to get them the information they need. So, if some of them tried to pull the "work from home" card full time they probably would eventually be told to get into the office without question. They can't go hands-on with the parts and assemblies we're designing to diagnose and deal with problems while sitting in their house. We had to during the heights of the pandemic and, needless to say, productivity dropped quite a bit. We're engineers and the products we design are being built in-house and a stairway away from our desks. Pretty much demands we be here to do our jobs effectively. All the photos and videos in the world can't replace putting you hands on it and brain-storming ideas in person.
 
Ididar said:
I wouldn't say I "love" going to the office but my job, and the jobs of those who work on my projects, pretty much require being at the office. When people do work from home they're operating at about 75% of capacity because they need to rely on people at the office to get them the information they need. So, if some of them tried to pull the "work from home" card full time they probably would eventually be told to get into the office without question. They can't go hands-on with the parts and assemblies we're designing to diagnose and deal with problems while sitting in their house. We had to during the heights of the pandemic and, needless to say, productivity dropped quite a bit. We're engineers and the products we design are being built in-house and a stairway away from our desks. Pretty much demands we be here to do our jobs effectively. All the photos and videos in the world can't replace putting you hands on it and brain-storming ideas in person.
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My engineering work is done inside an office sub partition inside a warehouse building. So no sunlight or view of the outside, makes it drab and id much rather be at home especially when 90% of what i do is on a pc.

There for sure is no one size fits all, i am glad that more companies are trying to be open minded and adapting to what works best for each person.
 
Darunion said:
There for sure is no one size fits all, i am glad that more companies are trying to be open minded
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No, but there is one size fits most. That is going into the office or job site to work. People are being a little bit too open-minded about work from home for most employees.
 
GoldenTiger said:
No, but there is one size fits most. That is going into the office or job site to work. People are being a little bit too open-minded about work from home for most employees.
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It's not one size fits most, it is "This is what we are used to so we don't want to change it" And also wanting to keep an eye on people, because management falsely believes that slackers can't slack right under their noses. As if they know what employees are doing in the first place. I've had the misfortune of being assigned many slackers over the years and believe you me, they are capable of doing literally nothing or outright hurt progress regardless of location. Whether it is on site, or in an office it just doesn't matter to them. They are also the first and loudest to complain about the quantity of work. And especially eager when someone else's work performance needs to be scrutinized.
 
M76 said:
It's not one size fits most, it is "This is what we are used to so we don't want to change it" And also wanting to keep an eye on people, because management falsely believes that slackers can't slack right under their noses. As if they know what employees are doing in the first place. I've had the misfortune of being assigned many slackers over the years and believe you me, they are capable of doing literally nothing or outright hurt progress regardless of location. Whether it is on site, or in an office it just doesn't matter to them. They are also the first and loudest to complain about the quantity of work. And especially eager when someone else's work performance needs to be scrutinized.
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Have you ever considered that it was done that way because it's the better option?
 
GoldenTiger said:
Have you ever considered that it was done that way because it's the better option?
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And have you considered that it is not a better option just tradition?
Yes, in fact I have considered it in depth. I believe a happy employee is a productive employee, and no better way to make employees happier than by sparing them from their daily commute, while also saving money for the company.
Of course it doesn't work for all jobs, but not allowing it where it is clearly possible is borderline criminal. It even benefits those who do have to get to work by reducing transit congestion and traffic. If everyone worked from home who could, traffic would be a breeze. But I guess raising gas prices have the same effect, but I'd prefer if everyone benefited.
 
staknhalo said:
Why stop there?

'it's evident of actual war crimes and human experimentation'
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And why would I believe it's not because of tradition, when you can't bring up a single counter argument against the benefits I pointed out?

When roads are over congested and fuel prices are at an all time high then forcing people to go to some shitty open air office every day for no clear reason outside of tradition, corporate inflexibility, or jealousy is ought to be criminal. It's not that much of a hyperbole as you try to make it out to be.
 
cAllen said:
Folks it does not matter one bit whether you think it's fair, modern, thrifty or anything else. If the Boss says back to the office, you have two choices...Period.
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Well, if all those ppl quit, then the company has to find new ppl - that's not always easy and can cost money.

I have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY for employers who forced employees to WFH - and now these employees prefer it - and now they're whining cuz they want them to go back to the office. Too bad, so sad. Tough. An employee who finds it more convenient and that they work efficiently from home - should just stick to it.
 
cAllen said:
Folks it does not matter one bit whether you think it's fair, modern, thrifty or anything else. If the Boss says back to the office, you have two choices...Period.
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Stop running with that goalpost, bring it back here, will you?

Of course they they can fire them, but that doesn't make it the better option, or the right thing to do, or justified in any way.

And they can only fire who doesn't want to come back to the office with full severance pay and proper notice. What they can't do is demand them back, or try to force them to quit. You are not required to accept a worse contract than you already work under.
 
M76 said:
And they can only fire who doesn't want to come back to the office with full severance pay and proper notice. What they can't do is demand them back, or try to force them to quit. You are not required to accept a worse contract than you already work under.
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IANAL, but that seems like something that entirely depends on what state they're in, and if the employment contract was modified, or if WFH was simply an exception, not an actual amendment. In the latter case, if the contract already set the expectation that the employee would be in the office, then refusing to go back is insubordination and a potential termination offense.

Other than laws covering large corporations doing mass layoffs, are there other laws requiring termination notice? I'm in CA, and I was let go, without notice, and not for cause, from a previous job, when they eliminated the entire engineering department. The company was less than 25 (I think less than 20 actually) and cutting me and the others was more than 10% of the entire staff.
 
M76 said:
And why would I believe it's not because of tradition, when you can't bring up a single counter argument against the benefits I pointed out?

When roads are over congested and fuel prices are at an all time high then forcing people to go to some shitty open air office every day for no clear reason outside of tradition, corporate inflexibility, or jealousy is ought to be criminal. It's not that much of a hyperbole as you try to make it out to be.
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My point was I don't see how making you get up at 6am and drive to work is borderline criminal. Even if based on tradition or not. Might as well paint it as evident of war crimes and human experimentation for better effect 👍
 
staknhalo said:
My point was I don't see how making you get up at 6am and drive to work is borderline criminal. Even if based on tradition or not. Might as well paint it as evident of war crimes and human experimentation for better effect 👍
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Pretty sure this is the Hitler/Nazi equivalent and means you lost the argument.
 
ThatITGuy said:
Pretty sure this is the Hitler/Nazi equivalent and means you lost the argument.
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I wouldn't call something borderline criminal the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, but it's in the same vein of trying to paint something so bad you then go 'you wouldn't support criminal activity or Hitler, would you?'

Although you should always be weary of asking that question, simply because you don't know who you're asking. You might not get the answer you were expecting and like ☝️
 
We renegotiated our rental during covid, going from 2 floors of a building down to one. Instead of assigned offices or cubicles, we now have shared cubicles, and no expectation of coming in, save for occasional in-person meetings. So management has either committed to work from home, or has backed themselves into a corner in the remodel. There are physically not enough seats for everyone at once.
I sometimes wouldn't mind going in since nobody else is in, and it would actually be quieter than my house. But if they make it mandatory, I better get my own space, dagummit. It would give me an excuse to keep some nice tech toys on my desk, instead of sitting in boxes. I miss the toys.
I do not miss public bathrooms. hooo-boy.

I think the thing that will happen is using our from-home privilege as justification for meager salary increases.

But, I don't think it makes sense to gamble your job on it, if they want you back, you'd better show up.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Have you ever considered that it was done that way because it's the better option?
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Dropbox
https://fortune.com/2023/10/15/dropbox-ceo-remote-work-return-to-office/

"Houston also waves away the suggestion that managing a worker in Boston is any different for him than managing someone under his thumb in San Francisco. “You need a different social contract, and to let go of control,” he acknowledged. “But if you trust people and treat them like adults, they’ll behave like adults. Trust over surveillance.” "
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If someone is slacking off, fire them, simple as that. if you feel everyone slacks off at home, the problem is the person hiring said people.

And NVIDIA....similar...
 
staknhalo said:
My point was I don't see how making you get up at 6am and drive to work is borderline criminal. Even if based on tradition or not. Might as well paint it as evident of war crimes and human experimentation for better effect 👍
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I don't actually think people should be sent to prison for it. It was only my way to show my contempt for the people demanding workers be at the office at all times unnecessarily.

Adding to the traffic, making everyone else get up even earlier and use more fuel due to stand still traffic should be disincentivized. I mean not recycling properly is fineable in some places, then surely wasting fuel and everyone's time for no good reason can also qualify.

ThatITGuy said:
Pretty sure this is the Hitler/Nazi equivalent and means you lost the argument.
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I would not call it an argument when you make zero arguments.
 
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LodeRunner said:
IANAL, but that seems like something that entirely depends on what state they're in, and if the employment contract was modified, or if WFH was simply an exception, not an actual amendment. In the latter case, if the contract already set the expectation that the employee would be in the office, then refusing to go back is insubordination and a potential termination offense.

Other than laws covering large corporations doing mass layoffs, are there other laws requiring termination notice? I'm in CA, and I was let go, without notice, and not for cause, from a previous job, when they eliminated the entire engineering department. The company was less than 25 (I think less than 20 actually) and cutting me and the others was more than 10% of the entire staff.
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I don't know about US law, I live in the EU. Here any amendment to the work contract must be approved by both parties. And there is a mandatory termination notice depending on how long have you been working there, regardless of the size of the company. The only time when you can be let go on short notice is during probation, which usually is the first 3-6 months.
I know the US is pretty backwards on worker rights, I believe there isn't even mandatory paid vacation time there, is that correct? But it would make little sense to me that an employer could change contracts behind people's backs or fire them with no notice.
 
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M76 said:
I don't know about US law, I live in the EU. Here any amendment to the work contract must be approved by both parties. And there is a mandatory termination notice depending on how long have you been working there, regardless of the size of the company. The only time when you can be let go on short notice is during probation, which usually is the first 3-6 months.
I know the US is pretty backwards on worker rights, I believe there isn't even mandatory paid vacation time there, is that correct? But it would make little sense to me that an employer could change contracts behind people's backs or fire them with no notice.
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There are no contracts, just laws unless you are in a union, then there is a different process for changes. Paid vacation is a rule for full time employees and without a union most people here can be terminated for any reasonable cause, such as refusing to return to office as being discussed here and it is instant, however that will qualify you for unemployment payments here.
 
Skilled workers i can see the WFH not being a problem, if you as an employer can trust that person to maintain the same level of effectiveness without being watched 100% let them WFH.
My issue is with entry level call center type jobs that need to be babysat, force them back to the office, I am sick of calling in for service and being on hold 3 times longer then pre covid to get less service.
 
Gideon said:
There are no contracts, just laws unless you are in a union, then there is a different process for changes. Paid vacation is a rule for full time employees and without a union most people here can be terminated for any reasonable cause, such as refusing to return to office as being discussed here and it is instant, however that will qualify you for unemployment payments here.
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It depends on the state. I believe in most you can be terminated without a reason given.
 
M76 said:
I don't know about US law, I live in the EU. Here any amendment to the work contract must be approved by both parties. And there is a mandatory termination notice depending on how long have you been working there, regardless of the size of the company. The only time when you can be let go on short notice is during probation, which usually is the first 3-6 months.
I know the US is pretty backwards on worker rights, I believe there isn't even mandatory paid vacation time there, is that correct? But it would make little sense to me that an employer could change contracts behind people's backs or fire them with no notice.
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Yeah some major differences between EU and US law. Also presumes that the authorization to work from home was a contract change and not an exception forced by the government.

In the EU, if WFH was an exception granted due to circumstances and not an actual contract change, would it become insubordination to not return once that exception was revoked?
 
LodeRunner said:
In the EU, if WFH was an exception granted due to circumstances and not an actual contract change, would it become insubordination to not return once that exception was revoked?
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I'm not sure it is even possible to do without an employment contract change. As the place of work is written in the contract. So you need a new contract drafted if your place of work is moving.
I know my contract was immediately changed as soon as government lockdowns were implemented.
 
Gideon said:
There are no contracts, just laws unless you are in a union, then there is a different process for changes. Paid vacation is a rule for full time employees and without a union most people here can be terminated for any reasonable cause, such as refusing to return to office as being discussed here and it is instant, however that will qualify you for unemployment payments here.
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Sorry, but my European brain cannot process that. What do you mean no contracts? You work for a company based on verbal agreement only, and just hope the company keeps their word and actually pays you at the end of the month? With no set job description and responsibilities etc, etc?
 
M76 said:
Sorry, but my European brain cannot process that. What do you mean no contracts? You work for a company based on verbal agreement only, and just hope the company keeps their word and actually pays you at the end of the month? With no set job description and responsibilities etc, etc?
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We don't sign a contract, we sign a agreement to work and it outlines the job, either of us can walk away anytime. Almost all of it is dictated by labor laws here. Union jobs are closer to what you would expect.
 
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