7700K for Delidding!

Discussion in 'Intel Processors' started by FrgMstr, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    mmm
    Well first you need to take care of the difference in height

    that's probably the worst

    the DIE reminded me of my AthlonXP and Duron days

    should be fine if handled with care
    if you get the height right

    also a custom cooler would probably be better for that

    AiO use a pump on the CPU block
    adding weight, as well as strain from the hoses

    using a custom loop you remove the weight of the pump and you can make the hose or pipes fit to you're case
    removing any pull from them
     
  2. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm in the exact same position, and wonder what the point of re-applying the IHS actually is, is it because the core will be crushed when you apply a cooler to it without the IHS, or is the IHS thick so that the core is recessed and does not touch the cooler after IHS removal?

    I'm really thinking of doing this to my old Haswell, as it's core temps are insane (Prime95) at even 4.2GHz, and I know just how bad the IHS is.

    Also, does anyone know of a delidding tool that's sold in Europe?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  3. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    There's a height difference
    cooler wouldn't make contact
    Edit:
    for instance

    https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...d-3770k-an-h100-and-9-different-tims.2285595/

    Overclocker UK
    or Caseking in Germany

    both the same tools, as they are partners

    it's out of stock now (here in germany) since they make new ones for kaby lake

    difference in Temps of naked vs with IHS is, what I found on forums, something like 5 degrees
     
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  4. Hitti2

    Hitti2 Limp Gawd

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    Pretty safe if you had a naked mount kit example: I have an ivy bridge naked kit by ek but I need a certain water cooling block by ek. Ek need make one for this processor and WC CPU block.
     
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  5. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    Yeah those would be nice

    however I've even seen different statements if the same mounting kit actually fits for skylake (no info as far as I can see on Kaby)

    so mmm

    sure would love some custom mounting from EK for each generation
     
  6. schlitzbull

    schlitzbull Limp Gawd

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    Does TIM become less effective over time similar to thermal paste? I've never done this before and may try it out on my 2700k.
     
  7. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    TIM = Thermal Paste (or whatever you decide to use)
     
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  8. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    You're 2700k is soldered to the IHS
    there is no paste
    while it is possible to delidd it, we're looking at a decrease of temps around 5 degrees for you


    might give lapping the IHS a try

    soldered parts also tended to have more uneven IHS

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Many thanks for taking the time to answer...

    I have been all over OCUK site, and have used the search and all categories I can think of, and I cannot find any kind of de-lidding hardware... Do you have a link or just the make of the De-lidder? I'm sorry, I am normally the first to roll my eyes at people that can't use search, but I really can't find it! lol
     
  10. Dekar12

    Dekar12 Gawd

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    Uh... I think the Sandy Bridge ones are soldered to the heat spreader, so this method of delidding does not work on them. It might be possible with the right tools and enough heat to loosen up the solder, but chances are high on just destroying the whole thing.
     
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  11. canmanone

    canmanone Limp Gawd

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    why are consumers doing intels work when intel should of already been doing this work for us. we shouldnt have to delid our cpus. this is just pathetic on intels part. the TIM that they use is useless. with all their r&d money they cant even put a proper TIM on their cpus. intel your useless and pathetic
     
  12. BillyK1998

    BillyK1998 n00b

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    This might be obvious but I couldnt tell by your picture with the lid reinstalled with the red rtv. There is a gap in the black rtv probably to keep pressure from building up under the lid.
     
  13. jimbob200521

    jimbob200521 Gawd

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    Yeah I never understood why they'd skimp on something as important as TIM on a K series CPU. I could understand an i3 or something that was intended for an office environment but a CPU meant to be OC'd? Come on now, that's first grade stuff there...
     
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  14. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    only in archive

    https://www.overclockers.co.uk/der8auer-delid-die-mate-hs-000-dr.html

    probably making a new one for kaby

    otherwise ebay might be you're friend
    I found mine that way

    it's just in between generations that don't fit
     
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  15. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    There's actually an ongoing discussion in other boards that it's not so much crappy TIM, but too thick glue

    having done the delidd myself
    I have to say I was astonished how much paste there was in between

    I was always taught that the job of the paste is to fill up microscopic unevenness between the 2 surfaces

    since Metall on Metall would give best heat transfer, but no surface is absolutely plane and even

    paste fills up the smallest places


    but there was quite a lot of TIM under the IHS
    looked to me like the 2 surfaces never had actually contact at all
     
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  16. Folterknecht

    Folterknecht n00b

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  17. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Fixed easily. 1484789058VJv6XPTukY_1_2_l.jpg
     
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  18. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    Ahh new one

    says 22.02 available

    cool
     
  19. gigatexal

    gigatexal [H]ardness Supreme

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  20. Pusher of Buttons

    Pusher of Buttons [H]ard|Gawd

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    I haven't really been into the "OC" crowd for awhile, but I was always a nervous wreck putting heat sinks on Athlon XPs back in the day and being afraid of cracking the die, and having to worry about shorting the f#$ker out with Arctic Silver....I haven't OC'd much in my recent builds largely because of lack of need and time to tinker like I had in my early years. How much difference are folks seeing with de-lidded CPUs? Enough to warrant the pain in the ass, or is this just something for folks playing at the extreme end of things?
     
  21. arnemetis

    arnemetis 2[H]4U

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    Just a heads up for Kyle, the link text reads red RVT instead of red RTV. Hooray typos!
     
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  22. Bandalo

    Bandalo 2[H]4U

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    Once Kyle gets the testing done, you'll see exactly for this example. Most posts I've seen are showing a 10-12C decrease in temps. Probably not worth it IMO, unless you have free time and money to burn. The difference in temps would probably get you another 1-2% increase in your overclock, but unlikely you'd get much more than that.

    I seem to remember reading the problem wasn't with the TIM itself anyway, it was the spacing between the die and the heatspreader. De-lidding and reseating the heatspreader manually just enabled you mate the surfaces better than Intel's high-volume automated process.
     
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  23. Pusher of Buttons

    Pusher of Buttons [H]ard|Gawd

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    Suppose that makes sense. While I don't miss the risk to the die, the move to heat spreaders on enthusiast level chips never made much sense to me. I mean, why do I want a layer of aluminum and whatever junk TIM material between direct contact with a pricey HSF/AIO? Of course, the last time I had a HSF put directly on the die it was this old beast....which I thought was absolutely massive back in the day.....I'd feel less confident trying to maneuver a big tower cooler or waterblock with stiff hoses and such.
    upload_2017-1-19_11-52-27.jpeg
     
  24. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire 2[H]4U

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  25. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    You say that now :ROFLMAO:

    I was kinda surprised when my Temps on my 7600k dropped 20 degrees :D

    but then mileage e may vary
    as in how thick the glue actually was on you're modell
     
  26. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    We've been doing that for years now, using tape that is to boarder cpu die/ihs when applying liquid TIMs.

    It's a helluvalot more than 10-12c.

    https://hardforum.com/threads/delidded-6700k.1920121/#post-1042721901
     
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  27. Bandalo

    Bandalo 2[H]4U

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    Well, from the manufacturer's point of view, heatspreaders make a LOT more sense. Protect the die from mechanical damage, and provide a much better (mechanical) interface for a wider variety of heatsinks. The few degrees of temp difference are really irrelevant for 99% of users anyway.

    The difference varies pretty widely from chip to chip. Which leans towards my belief that the TIM Intel used isn't the problem, it's the gap between the die and the heatspreader. There's no way you'd get a 20C difference with just a change in TIM...most TIM changes are only a couple degrees C either way. 20C implies a poor fit between surfaces.
     
  28. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    And let me also add that besides the massive temp drop with delidding, the REAL key is overclocking at a high level. What happens when pushing for 4.8ghz to 4.9ghz with Skylake or 5ghz with krabby lake is that you end up going tooooo close to tjmax, think temps well over 85c at those clocks. Thus delidding drops your temp 20c, thereby making 4.8ghz on skylake and 5ghz on krabby, an easy feat to achieve.

    You have obviously not done it before yet you argue the point like you have?
     
  29. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Not a bad idea at all, but hardly needed unless you are just going hog wild. Not anything next to the Kaby Lake die to contact anyway IIRC.
     
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  30. Bandalo

    Bandalo 2[H]4U

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    Well, to start, I've worked with thermal dynamics for years, and taken quite a few classes on the subject, specifically how heat transfers through materials. I've done my research, because according to physics, you should always see a temp improvement by removing the "lid" and having one less thermal barrier to transmit your generated heat though. But the thing is, the heatspreader material, and the TIM on the inside are VERY thin by design, and present very little barrier to heat transfer.

    If you hop onto ANY big online "roundup" of TIM's done by your favorite review site, you'll see there's usually only a 4-5C difference between the top and bottom compounds. Even on sites that use crap like toothpaste or mayonnaise as a test substance. A good TIM is designed to fill the small gaps between the two metal transfer surfaces, NOT present a solid layer of material. If you have a good mount between the surfaces, the TIM becomes nearly irrelevant, and a $2 tube of thermal grease will be almost as good as a $20 liquid metal kit.

    So, if you're seeing a 20C difference at these thermal power levels, that implies that you don't have direct die-to-metal contact, you have a relatively thick layer of TIM that's filling the air gap between the die and the heat spreader.

    I'd bet good money if you removed the lid, scraped the old glue off and simply remounted the lid with the stock TIM, you'd see almost the same improvement in performance.
     
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  31. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    You wouldn't get shit, maybe 5-6c like the Linus did in his video where he delidded with regular paste using stock cooler. Again, you're arguing shit in the face of evidence. And this theory of too much height under the IHS is just a theory, an assumption started by Silicon Lottery that has somehow become a freaking Gospel. No need to debate this point further lol. smh.

    https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ies-overclocks-inside-now-with-delid.2493250/
     
  32. magoo

    magoo [H]ardForum Junkie

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    pretty cool little tool.

    I think I'd simply use Noctura NT-H1 paste for the inside. Probably better than the standard Intel stuff.

    I wonder if JB Weld would work or I think JB Weld has a high temp product, too?
     
  33. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    You want to be able to remove the IHS in the future man, JB weld is a bit overkill.
     
  34. Bandalo

    Bandalo 2[H]4U

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    When you're done shaking your head, can you perhaps propose a theory as to WHY you're seeing a 20C difference? Even the worst, most generic thermal grease shouldn't have that much of a temperature delta if the surfaces are properly mated.
     
  35. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm not going to bother because I've no way to test my theory and I'm definitely not gonna sit here and act like its a fact when I've no fucking clue.
     
  36. drakken

    drakken [H]ard|Gawd

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    They put the lids on so that when you tighten the heat sink down it does not crush the cpu die which is organic substrate. I would not be surprised if the tim they use is machine applied in a clean room with little to no oxygen. Most people use silver nitrate which bonds to oxygen molecules so the ones that have the metal to lid are likely permanently welded in place and the ones that can delided are vacuum sealed with tape/paste/glue to hold them in place when the seal is created. So the heat sensors likely do not work as well if they are no longer vacuumed sealed. Those sensors measure the resistance of the air in the sealed area and if you reseal it and the cpu has no way of telling how much air is there or what the base line resistance is you may actually be getting worse temps but the sensor can not meausre it correctly. Much like if you increase or decrease the size of the wheels on your car and the dealership does not adjust the speedometer.
     
  37. Bandalo

    Bandalo 2[H]4U

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    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
     
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  38. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    lol exactly what I mean.
     
  39. Bandalo

    Bandalo 2[H]4U

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    I honestly can't test my theory either, not without a stack of Kaby Lake samples and some good x-ray equipment. I'm just talking the facts of heat transfer. That's the fun of the discussion though.
     
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  40. Jorona

    Jorona 2[H]4U

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    Uh, the heat spreaders aren't sealed.
     
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